Flashback: Players of the Decade

[ATPballkid]

1880s Renshaw / Sears___ Bingley Hillyard
1890s R. Doherty / Wrenn___ Dod / Atkinson
1900s L. Doherty / Larned___ Douglass Chambers
1910s Wilding___ Douglass Chambers / Mallory
1920s Tilden___ Lenglen
1930s Budge___ Wills Moody
1940s Kramer___ Brough
1950s Gonzales ___ Connolly
1960s Rosewall___ Court
1970s Borg___ Evert
1980s Lendl___ Navratilova
1990s Sampras___ Seles until she was stabbed
2000s Federer projected___ Henin-Hardenne or Serena Williams projected

Tennis was not so much an international sport before the 1920s and 1930s (really became an international sport in 1925). Therefore, it is harder to have a best player of the sport for those earlier years -- except you have to go with Wilding in the 1910s.

There are some very good players --- Cochet, Lacoste, Perry, Vines, Crawford, Hoad, Laver, Newcombe, Connors, McEnroe, Edberg, Becker, Wilander and Agassi among the men and Jacobs, Marble, du Pont, Hart, Fry, Hard, Gibson, Bueno, King, Goolagong, Graf and Hingis among the women --- who just were not quite good enough to be considered the best players of their decades.

Things look great for Roger Federer and Justine Henin-Hardenne or Serena Williams as Players of the Decade for the 2000s. Going to be hard to take a position against them based on what they have accomplished already and what they are likely to accomplish over the years remaining between 2007 and 2010.

 

[drakulie]

1990s Seles until she was stabbed

She never won Wimbledon. Graf is not only the player of the decade but of the century.

 

[chaognosis]

Tennis became an international sport in 1903, when H.L. Doherty became the first player to win a major on foreign soil. The Olympics and Davis Cup also provided grand stages for international competition. H.L. Doherty was clearly the top player of his decade, and the first true world champion, more clearly even than Wilding in the 1910s. (Yes, Wilding won Wimbledon many times, but he himself--and the wider public--usually considered Brookes to be the superior all around player. Brookes focused mostly on Davis Cup rather than Wimbledon, and when he did return to Wimbledon in 1914 he dethroned Wilding.) I don't blame you regarding these pre-WWI years though; the records are hard to come by unless you have access to a good library, and very few know much about tennis in this period.

Aside from that, you've made a few other dubious selections. It is hard to say that Rosewall was the dominant player of the 1960s. True, he took over from Gonzales as the top pro sometime in 1960 or '61, but the crown was stolen by Laver by the end of 1964, and Laver was clearly the top dog for the remainder of the decade. Rosewall's longevity may surpass Laver's, but Laver's reign at No. 1 was longer and his accomplishments (especially the 1969 Slam) sufficiently outclass Rosewall's that the vast majority of experts would give that decade to Laver. (It puzzles me that you give the '60s to Rosewall but give the '30s to Budge... to be consistent you should probably have awarded the '30s to either Vines or Perry. Your previous posts do, however, seem to indicate a curious anti-Laver agenda.)

The 1980s are also contentious. Lendl was more consistent than McEnroe, but McEnroe reached greater heights and won the most important tournament, Wimbledon, three times whereas Lendl never won it. Statistically, Lendl is probably the better choice but McEnroe was, and always will be, superior in the public's eye. I cannot say I wholly disagree with your choice here--I'm just pointing out that it is controversial.

 

[ATPballkid]

She never won Wimbledon. Graf is not only the player of the decade but of the century.

A player who is the greatest of the century does not have to rely on the #1 ranked player in the world (who is just a teenager and #1 for consecutive years while winning 9 of the 11 biggest events in the sport over a period of more than 2 years) being stabbed in the back with a knife.

 

[drakulie]

A player who is the greatest of the century does not have to rely on the #1 ranked player in the world (who is just a tennager and #1 for consecutive years while winning 9 of the 11 biggest events in the sport over a period of more than 2 years) being stabbed in the back with a knife.

I said my peace>> Deal with it. Graf is the Greatest of all time, including the 90's.

 

[ATPballkid]

I said my peace>> Deal with it. Graf is the Greatest of all time, including the 90's.

The only way someone can say that Steffi Graf is the best female tennis player of all time is to have absolutely no knowledge of Monica Seles and Gunther Parche.

It would also help them to have no knowledge of Helen Wills Moody, Chris Evert and Martina Navratilova.

Take away Monica Seles, Gunther Parche, Helen Wills Moody, Chris Evert and Martina Navratilova ... completely wipe them away as if they never existed ... then, Steffi Graf would get my vote as the #1 women's tennis player of all time.

Of course, the problem with this is the fact that Seles, Parche, Wills Moody, Evert and Navratilova existed.

 

[chaognosis]

Just as a follow up, I think a more defensible breakdown would be:

1880s W. Renshaw
1890s No dominant player
1900s H.L. Doherty
1910s Brookes/Wilding (tie)
1920s Tilden
1930s Budge
1940s Kramer
1950s Gonzales
1960s Laver
1970s Borg
1980s McEnroe/Lendl (tie)
1990s Sampras
2000s Federer

I have studied women's tennis less and so will not venture to make a similar list. However, regarding the "player of the century," I think a very strong case could be made for Suzanne Lenglen. Helen Wills, Maureen Connolly, Martina Navratilova, and Steffi Graf would all have to be close behind.

 

[ATPballkid]

I have studied women's tennis less and so will not venture to make a similar list. However, regarding the "player of the century," I think a very strong case could be made for Suzanne Lenglen. Helen Wills, Maureen Connolly, Martina Navratilova, and Steffi Graf would all have to be close behind.

And the 5 FINALISTS in the ALL-TIME GREATEST for the women category are:

Suzanne Lenglen (1920s)
Helen Wills Moody (1920s-1930s)
Margaret Court (1960s-1970s)
Chris Evert (1970s-1980s)
Martina Navratilova (1970s-1990s)

Top 5 Honorable Mentions for the women:

Billie Jean King (1960s-1980s)
Maureen Connolly (1950s)
Monica Seles (1990s-2000s)
Steffi Graf (1980s-1990s)
Serena Williams (1990s-2000s)

 

[chaognosis]

Swap Court and Evert with Connolly and Graf and we'll agree.

 

[drakulie]

The only way someone can say that Steffi Graf is the best female tennis player of all time is to have absolutely no knowledge of Monica Seles and Gunther Parche.

You are correct>> I had no knowledge that Parche played tennis. I also had no knowledge that Seles won more titles/slams than Graf, or even achievd a Wimbledon title.

 

[ATPballkid]

Swap Court and Evert with Connolly and Graf and we'll agree.

To be among the best of all-time, you have to be convincingly the best and most dominating player in the middle of your career --- Lenglen was dominant throughout her career ... Wills Moody was dominant throughout her career ... Connolly was stabbed too early to see how she would have done deeper into the 1950s ... Court was dominant in the middle of her career ... Evert was very consistent in winning Grand Slam singles titles in 13 consecutive years, though she was not dominant in the middle of her career because of Navratilova ... Navratilova was certainly dominant in the middle of her career.

 

[ATPballkid]

You are correct>> I had no knowledge that Parche played tennis. .

Seles started her incredible run of winning 10 of 12 major events (Slams + WTA Tour Championships) from November 1990 until she was stabbed in the back by a knife in the hands of a fan of #2 Graf in early 1993. In those 12 biggest events from November 1990 through January 1993, Seles won 10 of the 12 ... she was runnerup in an 11th ... and she skipped the 12th one.

 

[ATPballkid]

I also had no knowledge that Seles won more titles/slams than Graf, or even achievd a Wimbledon title.

Uh ... son ... we have gone over this ...

The first 5 years of Monica Seles' career before the #1 teen phenom with 10 of the most recent 12 major events when the Graf fan stabbed Seles in the back for winning so much more at the biggest events FAR outweighed Graf's first 5 years ...

Steffi had won more Grand Slams than Monica?

NOT during the time when Seles and Graf were both playing these Grand Slam events.

Seles' first Grand Slam singles tournament was the 1989 French. Between the 1989 French Open and the stabbing of Monica Seles in the back with a knife because she was winning too much for a Steffi Graf fan to tolerate:

16 Grand Slam singles titles ... Seles won 8, Graf won just 5.
4 WTA Tour Championships .. Seles won 3, Graf won just 1.

TOTALS: Seles won 11 majors and Graf won just 6 in the time between Seles beginning to compete at the Grand Slam events (beginning with the 1989 French Open) and the horrific stabbing of the #1 ranked teen phenom, Monica Seles, in the back with a knife by a jealous Steffi Graf fan.

Drakulie ... where have you been? How could you have missed all of this, son?

 

[ATPballkid]

Aside from that, you've made a few other dubious selections. It is hard to say that Rosewall was the dominant player of the 1960s. True, he took over from Gonzales as the top pro sometime in 1960 or '61, but the crown was stolen by Laver by the end of 1964, and Laver was clearly the top dog for the remainder of the decade.

Ken Rosewall and Pancho Gonzales were the top 2 players of the 1960s decade and they whipped Rod up, down and all around in the years 1963, 1964, 1965, 1966 and into 1967 and then Rosewall won the first Grand Slam event open to the professionals ... Laver had his good 14 month run between Wimbledon 1968 and Forest Hills 1969 ... then Rosewall went on to win 3 more Grand Slam events in the 1970s when Laver never got past the quarters or any Slam in the 1970s. Rosewall also won the World Championship of Tennis (WCT Final) in 1972 and 1973 over Laver in the final.

 

[chaognosis]

Ken Rosewall and Pancho Gonzales were the top 2 players of the 1960s decade and they whipped Rod up, down and all around in the years 1963, 1964, 1965, 1966 and into 1967 and then Rosewall won the first Grand Slam event open to the professionals ... Laver had his good 14 month run between Wimbledon 1968 and Forest Hills 1969 ... then Rosewall went on to win 3 more Grand Slam events in the 1970s when Laver never got past the quarters or any Slam in the 1970s. Rosewall also won the World Championship of Tennis (WCT Final) in 1972 and 1973 over Laver in the final.

That is utter nonsense and you know it--no one who knows anything about the period could possibly agree with what you've just stated. Gonzales one of the top two players of the 1960s? He was basically retired for much of the decade. Rosewall beat up on Laver in 1963, Laver's very first year as a pro, but by the end of that year Laver was already the clear No. 2. By the end of the following year, 1964, Laver had turned things around with a positive head-to-head against Rosewall. He also won two of the three biggest tournaments that year. From 1965 until '69 it was all Laver. Yes, Rosewall was always a dangerous rival and capable of an upset--but there was never any question who the No. 1 player was. Rosewall was a marvel of longevity and he did eventually outlast Laver, with superior results in the 1970s... but that has nothing to do with the '60s, now, does it? The statistics don't back up your position, and 9/10 experts would agree with me that Laver was the best player of the decade.

 

[Steve132]

During the 1960's Laver completed the Grand Slam as an amateur (1962), won the professional equivalent of a Grand Slam (1967) and completed the only Grand Slam by a man in the Open era (1969). There are no gaps in his resume, and it's hard to see how any of his contemporaries could be rated above him.

 

[GS]

Uh, the 3rd poster here said that Lendl won Wimbledon once? Man, I have to re-adjust all my tennis history now.....

 

[chaognosis]

How embarrassing. It's what a friend would call a "very senior moment."

 

[Eviscerator]

1960s Rosewall___

:roll: :roll:

 

[robinho17]

Ken Rosewall and Pancho Gonzales were the top 2 players of the 1960s decade and they whipped Rod up, down and all around in the years 1963, 1964, 1965, 1966 and into 1967 and then Rosewall won the first Grand Slam event open to the professionals ... Laver had his good 14 month run between Wimbledon 1968 and Forest Hills 1969 ... then Rosewall went on to win 3 more Grand Slam events in the 1970s when Laver never got past the quarters or any Slam in the 1970s. Rosewall also won the World Championship of Tennis (WCT Final) in 1972 and 1973 over Laver in the final.

I dont know if you have been purposely ignorant to Rod Laver achievements because from what i see there has not been one generation Rod Laver has not been nothing less then Phenomanal,when he has achieved a Calander slam in each category(Amatuer,Pro,Open Era)?The only bad patch Rod Laver ever had in his career was "63" his rookie year as a Pro.

1964: - Wins U.S Pro, Wembley Pro
- Wins the most Tournaments with 11(Boston US Pro, Wembley London Pro, Geneve, Johannesburg, Monterey, Perth (4 man event), Port Elizabeth, Salisbury, Biarritz (4 man), Cairo (4 man), Marseille (4 man)
- Has a 12-3 Head to Head matches against Rosewall

1965: - Wins Wembley Pro
- Wins the most tournament by a clear margin with 17 followed by Rosewall 6(Wembley London Pro, Adelaide, Cannes, Durban, Lake Tahoe, Capetown, Hobart (4 man), Los Angeles R.R., Melbourne, Nairobi, New York US Pro Indoor, Newport R.R., Oklahoma (4 man), Perth , Rhodesia, San Rafael, Belfast (4 man)
- Has a 13-5 Head to Head match record against Rosewall
1966: - Wins Wembley Pro, U.S .Pro, Forrest Hills Pro
- Wins 15 tournaments (Boston US Pro, Wembley London Pro, Binghamton, Brisbane, Cannes (4 man), Capetown, Forest Hills R.R., Johannesburg, Melbourne, Perth, Nancy (4 man), Oporto, Milan (4 man), Abidjan (4 man), Dakar (4 man),Second Rosewall 9 tournaments

1967:- Wins a Calender PRO SLAM U.S. Pro, Wimbledon Pro, the French Pro and Wembley Pro
- Wins a RECORD 18 tournaments (Wimbledon Pro, Boston US Pro, Wembley London Pro, Paris French Pro, Paris Indoor, Binghamton, Boston Garden, Johannesburg, Fort Worth, Marseille (4 man), Miami, New York US Pro Indoor, New York Madison Square Garden, Newport R.R., Oklahoma, Orlando, San Diego, San Juan
- 8-5 Head to Head match record with Rosewall, 12-4 against Gimeno

1968:- Wins Wimbledon, Boston US Pro, Paris French
Pro
- Wins 11 tournaments (Wimbledon, Boston US Pro, Paris French Pro, Buenos Aires, Corpus Christi, La Paz, Los Angeles PSW Open, London Indoor, London BBC 2 (4 man), New York Madison Square Garden, São Paulo
- Laver beat Rosewall in the Pacific Southwest Open (Los Angeles); Laver beat John Newcombe in U.S. Pro;; Laver beat Newcombe in French Pro
- Panel of 17 journalists, mostly Europeans, ranked the best players as being 1) Laver, 2) Ashe, 3) Rosewall, 4) Okker, 5) Newcombe, 6) Roche, 7) Graebner, 8) Drysdale, 9) Ralston, 10) Gonzales

1969:- Wins a CALANDER OPEN ERA SLAM Aus Open,Wimbledon, French Open, U.S Open
- Wins U.S Pro over Newcombe, Wembley Pro over Roche
- Wins 18 tournaments (Brisbane Australian Open, French Open, Wimbledon, US Open, South African Open, Boston US Pro, Wembley British Indoor, Anaheim, Baltimore, Binghamton, Fort Worth, Los Angeles, London BBC 2 (4man), Madrid, New York Madison Square Garden Invitational, Orlando, Philadelphia US Pro Indoor, St. Louis

1970:- Wins Philadelphia (over Roche), Dunlop Sydney Open (over Rosewall), Pacific Southwest Open (Los Angeles) (over Newcombe) and Wembley
- Wins 14 Tournaments (Canadian Open, South African Open, Wembley British Indoor, Fort Worth WCT, Louisville WCT, Los Angeles PSW Open, New York Champions Classic, Philadelphia US Pro Indoor, Queen's Club, South Orange, St. Louis WCT, Sydney, Vancouver WCT, Germany (Berlin, Bonn, and Saarbrücken) Round Robin (4 man).

1971:- Wins 7 Tournaments (Rome Italian Open, Berkeley WCT, Bologna WCT, Fort Worth WCT, London Indoor, New York Champions Classic, Hilton Head CBS Classic (4 man)
- Won a then-record US$292,717 in tournament prize money
- Beats Kodes in the Italian Open, winner of the French Open

1972:- Wins 5 Tournaments (Denver WCT, Houston WCT, Philadelphia US Pro Indoor, Richmond WCT, Toronto WCT )
1973:- - Wins 7 Tournaments (Hong Kong, Miami WCT, Richmond WCT, Sydney Australian Indoor, Toronto WCT, Hilton Head CBS Classic, Hilton Head World Invitational Tennis Classic (4 man)
- At age 35 wins Davis Cup against USA and is undefeated in 4 singles matches /2 Doubles.
1974:- Wins 6 Tournaments (Bretton Woods, Houston WCT, Las Vegas, Palm Desert WCT, Philadelphia US Pro Indoor, Tokyo WCT )
- At double the age of 36 defeats Bjorg Borg age 18 at the Houston WCT Final on clay same year Borg won his first French Open.

the list goes on...... from 1968 Laver won 45 Open Era tournaments over the age 30 in comparison Federer from 1998-2007 by the age of 26 won 50 Open Era....remarkable when you think of longevity!

 

[robinho17]

Ken Rosewall and Pancho Gonzales were the top 2 players of the 1960s decade and they whipped Rod up, down and all around in the years 1963, 1964, 1965, 1966 and into 1967 and then Rosewall won the first Grand Slam event open to the professionals ... Laver had his good 14 month run between Wimbledon 1968 and Forest Hills 1969 ... then Rosewall went on to win 3 more Grand Slam events in the 1970s when Laver never got past the quarters or any Slam in the 1970s. Rosewall also won the World Championship of Tennis (WCT Final) in 1972 and 1973 over Laver in the final.

I dont know if you have been purposely ignorant to Rod Laver achievements because from what i see there has not been one generation Rod Laver has not been nothing less then Phenomanal,when he has achieved a Calander slam in each category(Amatuer,Pro,Open Era)?The only bad patch Rod Laver ever had in his career was "63" his rookie year as a Pro.

1964: - Wins U.S Pro, Wembley Pro
- Wins the most Tournaments with 11(Boston US Pro, Wembley London Pro, Geneve, Johannesburg, Monterey, Perth (4 man event), Port Elizabeth, Salisbury, Biarritz (4 man), Cairo (4 man), Marseille (4 man)
- Has a 12-3 Head to Head matches against Rosewall

1965: - Wins Wembley Pro
- Wins the most tournament by a clear margin with 17 followed by Rosewall 6(Wembley London Pro, Adelaide, Cannes, Durban, Lake Tahoe, Capetown, Hobart (4 man), Los Angeles R.R., Melbourne, Nairobi, New York US Pro Indoor, Newport R.R., Oklahoma (4 man), Perth , Rhodesia, San Rafael, Belfast (4 man)
- Has a 13-5 Head to Head match record against Rosewall
1966: - Wins Wembley Pro, U.S .Pro, Forrest Hills Pro
- Wins 15 tournaments (Boston US Pro, Wembley London Pro, Binghamton, Brisbane, Cannes (4 man), Capetown, Forest Hills R.R., Johannesburg, Melbourne, Perth, Nancy (4 man), Oporto, Milan (4 man), Abidjan (4 man), Dakar (4 man),Second Rosewall 9 tournaments

1967:- Wins a Calender PRO SLAM U.S. Pro, Wimbledon Pro, the French Pro and Wembley Pro
- Wins a RECORD 18 tournaments (Wimbledon Pro, Boston US Pro, Wembley London Pro, Paris French Pro, Paris Indoor, Binghamton, Boston Garden, Johannesburg, Fort Worth, Marseille (4 man), Miami, New York US Pro Indoor, New York Madison Square Garden, Newport R.R., Oklahoma, Orlando, San Diego, San Juan
- 8-5 Head to Head match record with Rosewall, 12-4 against Gimeno

1968:- Wins Wimbledon, Boston US Pro, Paris French
Pro
- Wins 11 tournaments (Wimbledon, Boston US Pro, Paris French Pro, Buenos Aires, Corpus Christi, La Paz, Los Angeles PSW Open, London Indoor, London BBC 2 (4 man), New York Madison Square Garden, São Paulo
- Laver beat Rosewall in the Pacific Southwest Open (Los Angeles); Laver beat John Newcombe in U.S. Pro;; Laver beat Newcombe in French Pro
- Panel of 17 journalists, mostly Europeans, ranked the best players as being 1) Laver, 2) Ashe, 3) Rosewall, 4) Okker, 5) Newcombe, 6) Roche, 7) Graebner, 8) Drysdale, 9) Ralston, 10) Gonzales

1969:- Wins a CALANDER OPEN ERA SLAM Aus Open,Wimbledon, French Open, U.S Open
- Wins U.S Pro over Newcombe, Wembley Pro over Roche
- Wins 18 tournaments (Brisbane Australian Open, French Open, Wimbledon, US Open, South African Open, Boston US Pro, Wembley British Indoor, Anaheim, Baltimore, Binghamton, Fort Worth, Los Angeles, London BBC 2 (4man), Madrid, New York Madison Square Garden Invitational, Orlando, Philadelphia US Pro Indoor, St. Louis

1970:- Wins Philadelphia (over Roche), Dunlop Sydney Open (over Rosewall), Pacific Southwest Open (Los Angeles) (over Newcombe) and Wembley
- Wins 14 Tournaments (Canadian Open, South African Open, Wembley British Indoor, Fort Worth WCT, Louisville WCT, Los Angeles PSW Open, New York Champions Classic, Philadelphia US Pro Indoor, Queen's Club, South Orange, St. Louis WCT, Sydney, Vancouver WCT, Germany (Berlin, Bonn, and Saarbrücken) Round Robin (4 man).

1971:- Wins 7 Tournaments (Rome Italian Open, Berkeley WCT, Bologna WCT, Fort Worth WCT, London Indoor, New York Champions Classic, Hilton Head CBS Classic (4 man)
- Won a then-record US$292,717 in tournament prize money
- Beats Kodes in the Italian Open, winner that year of the French Open

1972:- Wins 5 Tournaments (Denver WCT, Houston WCT, Philadelphia US Pro Indoor, Richmond WCT, Toronto WCT )
1973:- - Wins 7 Tournaments (Hong Kong, Miami WCT, Richmond WCT, Sydney Australian Indoor, Toronto WCT, Hilton Head CBS Classic, Hilton Head World Invitational Tennis Classic (4 man)
- At age 35 wins Davis Cup against USA and is undefeated in 4 singles matches /2 Doubles.
1974:- Wins 6 Tournaments (Bretton Woods, Houston WCT, Las Vegas, Palm Desert WCT, Philadelphia US Pro Indoor, Tokyo WCT )
- At double the age of 36 defeats Bjorg Borg age 18 at the Houston WCT Final on clay same year Borg won his first French Open.

the list goes on...... from 1968 Laver won 45 Open Era tournaments over the age 30 in comparison Federer from 1998-2007 by the age of 26 won 50 Open Era....remarkable when you think of longevity!

 

[ATPballkid]

I dont know if you have been purposely ignorant to Rod Laver achievements because from what i see there has not been one generation Rod Laver has not been nothing less then Phenomanal,when he has achieved a Calander slam in each category(Amatuer,Pro,Open Era)?The only bad patch Rod Laver ever had in his career was "63" his rookie year as a Pro.

[the list goes on...... from 1968 Laver won 45 Open Era tournaments over the age 30 in comparison Federer from 1998-2007 by the age of 26 won 50 Open Era....remarkable when you think of longevity!

Ken Rosewall made the final of both Wimbledon and the U.S. Open in 1974 (turned 40 on November 2 of that year) ... then, after turning 40 he made the semis twice and then the quarters of 3 consecutive Australian Opens ... think of it, 25 years after winning his first Grand Slam event he was making the semis and quarters of the Australian Open 3 straight years.

25 years after Connors' first Slam = 1999.
25 years after McEnroe's first Slam = 2004.
25 years after Becker's first Slam = 2010.
25 years after Pete's first Slam = 2015.
25 years after Agassi's first Slam = 2017.

Speaking of longevity, Sampras gets credit for being the only man in the Open Era to win Slams 12 years apart and being the only man in the Open Era to win Slams in his teenage years in addition to his 20s and 30s. Rosewall won Slams 19 years apart and not only won Slams in his teenage years, his 20s and his 30s .. but Rosewall ALSO made the semis and quarters of Grand Slam events in 3 consecutive years in his 40s.

Again, Rosewall missed out on 45 Grand Slam singles events in the years 1957 until the 1968 French (which he won by beating Rod Laver in the final) .. and then, he was the #4 player of the 1970s decade behind only Borg, Connors and Newcombe .. Rosewall was the WCT Champion (beating Laver in both finals) in 1972 and 1973.

Anyway .. yes, 8 Grand Slam singles titles and 2 Tour Championships and he missed 11 of his prime years (age 22-33 in the years 1957 through the first quarter of 1968 ) .. to me that is more impressive than Laver winning just 3 more Slams after missing 21 attempts ... especially since Rosewall had a better decade than Laver in the 1950s, 1960s and 1970s.

Ken Rosewall 8 Slams .. missed 45 Slams in 11.25 years.
missed from 22 years, 2 months to 33 years, 6 months.

Rod Laver 11 Slams .. missed 21 Slams in 5.25 years.
missed from 24 years, 5 months to 29 years, 8 months.

Not taking anything away from Laver ... however, Rosewall being the #3 or #4 player of the 1950s ... the #1 player of the 1960s ... and the #4 player of the 1970s is impressive.

And keep in mind, that over half of Laver's 11 Slams were won when he was very inferior as a player to Ken Rosewall, Pancho Gonzales and Lew Hoad ... after Laver won all 4 Slams in 1962 as an amateur he turned professional and he was destroyed in 1963, 1964, 1965, 1966 and part of 1967 by Rosewall and Gonzales. Laver only won 5 Slams in a period of 14 months against the best players in the world. He never got past the quarterfinal round of any Grand Slam event in the 1970s while Rosewall won 4 Slams in the 1970s and beat Laver for the WCT Tour Championship in 1972 and 1973.

These are all reasons I have Rosewall higher on the all-time list with Sampras and Tilden. I have Laver securely in the all-time top 10 along with Budge, Borg, Cochet, Perry, Lendl and Gonzales.

Tells you how much I think of Laver .. a lot of the basis for having Rosewall and Gonzales so high is how badly these 2 beat Laver in the 1960s after Laver turned pro and how these older guys continued to beat Laver into the 1970s.

 

[chaognosis]

Your ability to misconstrue the data is impressive.

We are not debating Rosewall's and Laver's respective results in the 1950s or '70s. The matter at hand is the 1960s, and your claim that Rosewall was "the #1 player of the 1960s" is extremely tenuous. Rosewall was probably better than Laver in 1960, '61 and '62; he was certainly better than Laver in '63. But Laver was probably slightly better than Rosewall in '64, and indisputably better in '65, '66, '67, '68 and '69. Add to that the fact that Laver achieved the highest accomplishment in tennis, the Grand Slam, not once but TWICE during the 1960s, not to mention the pro equivalent he won in 1967 (Rosewall admittedly did the same in '63). I am a huge fan of Ken Rosewall as a player and as a human being, and I agree wholeheartedly that in an open environment he very likely would have had the greatest overall career of any player in history. But the top player of the 1960s--the dominant performer of that decade, the player who achieved the most and was the best player in the world for the longest time--was indisputably Rod Laver.

Your anti-Laver agenda has been evident for some time, but here it has totally colored and warped your perspective. Give the man credit for what he was: the best, and greatest, player of the 1960s.

 

[robinho17]

Not taking anything away from Laver ... however, Rosewall being the #3 or #4 player of the 1950s ... the #1 player of the 1960s ... and the #4 player of the 1970s is impressive.

And keep in mind, that over half of Laver's 11 Slams were won when he was very inferior as a player to Ken Rosewall, Pancho Gonzales and Lew Hoad ... after Laver won all 4 Slams in 1962 as an amateur he turned professional and he was destroyed in 1963, 1964, 1965, 1966 and part of 1967 by Rosewall and Gonzales. Laver only won 5 Slams in a period of 14 months against the best players in the world. He never got past the quarterfinal round of any Grand Slam event in the 1970s while Rosewall won 4 Slams in the 1970s and beat Laver for the WCT Tour Championship in 1972 and 1973.

These are all reasons I have Rosewall higher on the all-time list with Sampras and Tilden. I have Laver securely in the all-time top 10 along with Budge, Borg, Cochet, Perry, Lendl and Gonzales.

Tells you how much I think of Laver .. a lot of the basis for having Rosewall and Gonzales so high is how badly these 2 beat Laver in the 1960s after Laver turned pro and how these older guys continued to beat Laver into the 1970s.

Geez your ignoring the plain facts as i showed previously...How can Rosewall be the man who dominated the 60 when..like i wrote before..Rod Laver had a clear winning Head to head record against Rosewall
1964: 12-3 H2H
1965: 13-5 H2H
1966: 7-6 H2H
1967: 8-5 H2H

Before ,during and after this period in the 60's Laver won a Calander Slam.

There is no official overall H2H record between Laver and Rosewall BUT
"Total tennis" has Laver 62-49 Rosewall
Tennis Historian Robert Geist has it Laver 100-85 Rosewall
ATP website has it Laver 12-5 in the Open Era.

There is no denying Laver holds a clear record over Rosewall!

And from a Aussie point of view ..with all the Historic champions we have had in the past

Hoad,Rosewall,Emerson,Laver,Newcombe,Roche,Stolle, we name our only Grand slam Stadium with Laver ahead of the others.

On a personal note ,apart from Federer i have not see a better all round player with all the shots then the rocket.

For me what i call the G.O.A.T is apart from records..i look at the total package..there was nothing missing from Rod Laver.

 

[joe sch]

Just as a follow up, I think a more defensible breakdown would be:

1880s W. Renshaw
1890s No dominant player
1900s H.L. Doherty
1910s Brookes/Wilding (tie)
1920s Tilden
1930s Budge
1940s Kramer
1950s Gonzales
1960s Laver
1970s Borg
1980s McEnroe/Lendl (tie)
1990s Sampras
2000s Federer

I have studied women's tennis less and so will not venture to make a similar list. However, regarding the "player of the century," I think a very strong case could be made for Suzanne Lenglen. Helen Wills, Maureen Connolly, Martina Navratilova, and Steffi Graf would all have to be close behind.

Chaognosis, I agree with your logic and listing. My only exception and I dont have the time now to really backup is that I think the 1970's are a tie between:
Jimmy Connors & Bjorn Borg ...
(Connors: 5 straight years as YE No.1 and consecutive weeks as No.1 record holder) (Borg: 5 straight Wimbledon's and 6 French Open's. 1978-80 French/Wimbledon double)

I believe your logic is that the 1970s go to Borg over Connors based on Bjorns winning percentage and greater number of slam, and it is hard to argue this but I still think its close enough to put Connors name in there and consider it close to a tie

Joe

 

[chaognosis]

It is indeed a close call Joe, but I do think Borg has the stronger case. The computer rankings may have favored Connors, but most press rankings, along with the ATP Player of the Year award, clearly favored Borg. (The ITF also chose Borg as World Champion in 1978 over Connors, despite the computer ranking.) I think Connors was the true No. 1 in 1974 and '76, while Borg was the best in 1977, '78 and '79. Together with Borg's superior performance in the majors, especially Wimbledon, and his head-to-head advantage over Connors, I do consider the Swede the champion of the decade. Similar arguments could also be made regarding the 1930s: Vines and Perry may have been more consistently dominant throughout the decade, but Budge's Grand Slam and the fact that he established his superiority over both of his rivals as a pro in 1939 seem to tip the scales in his favor.

 

[llama]

I've promised myself never to be involved in such troll trash - but where are the moderators on this Board?

 

[2 Cent]

A player who is the greatest of the century does not have to rely on the #1 ranked player in the world (who is just a teenager and #1 for consecutive years while winning 9 of the 11 biggest events in the sport over a period of more than 2 years) being stabbed in the back with a knife.

get over your Gunther Parche-esque pro-Seles obsession!

 

[FedSampras]

get over your Gunther Parche-esque pro-Seles obsession!

Condi is that really you.............?

 

[djsiva]

I said my peace>> Deal with it. Graf is the Greatest of all time, including the 90's.

Amen to that! Graf's a real athlete. One that we would never be ashamed to show the rest of the sporting world.

This cannot be said of Serena, Davenport, and Kuznetsova. One look from a tennis outsider and they think tennis can't be that hard since fat people dominate the sport. Or at least fat looking people dominate it.

 

[CyBorg]

Jimmy Connors & Bjorn Borg ...
(Connors: 5 straight years as YE No.1 and consecutive weeks as No.1 record holder) (Borg: 5 straight Wimbledon's and 6 French Open's. 1978-80 French/Wimbledon double)

A few things: 1) Connors' was rated by a system that weighted three-year results and in general was faulty; 2) Borg was named player of the year from 76 to 80 ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ATP_Awards) and Ashe was POE in 75. 3) Connors won a lot of tournaments with weak fields, frequently skipping deeper WCT events where the likes of Borg and Ashe played.

I believe your logic is that the 1970s go to Borg over Connors based on Bjorns winning percentage and greater number of slam, and it is hard to argue this but I still think its close enough to put Connors name in there and consider it close to a tie.

You can also look at the H2H between the two. Ostensibly, Connors had an edge on Borg 74-76, but Borg began to win their battles from 77 on with considerable consistency.

http://www.atptennis.com/3/en/players/headtohead/default.asp?playernum1=B058&playernum2=C044

 

[ATPballkid]

How embarrassing. It's what a friend would call a "very senior moment."

You are one clueless pup, chaognosis ... LMAO ... totally clueless.

 

[FedSampras]

1880s Renshaw / Sears___ Bingley Hillyard
1890s R. Doherty / Wrenn___ Dod / Atkinson
1900s L. Doherty / Larned___ Douglass Chambers
1910s Wilding___ Douglass Chambers / Mallory
1920s Tilden___ Lenglen
1930s Budge___ Wills Moody
1940s Kramer___ Brough
1950s Gonzales ___ Connolly
1960s Rosewall___ Court
1970s Borg___ Evert
1980s Lendl___ Navratilova
1990s Sampras___ Seles until she was stabbed
2000s Federer projected___ Henin-Hardenne or Serena Williams projected

Tennis was not so much an international sport before the 1920s and 1930s (really became an international sport in 1925). Therefore, it is harder to have a best player of the sport for those earlier years -- except you have to go with Wilding in the 1910s.

There are some very good players --- Cochet, Lacoste, Perry, Vines, Crawford, Hoad, Laver, Newcombe, Connors, McEnroe, Edberg, Becker, Wilander and Agassi among the men and Jacobs, Marble, du Pont, Hart, Fry, Hard, Gibson, Bueno, King, Goolagong, Graf and Hingis among the women --- who just were not quite good enough to be considered the best players of their decades.

Things look great for Roger Federer and Justine Henin-Hardenne or Serena Williams as Players of the Decade for the 2000s. Going to be hard to take a position against them based on what they have accomplished already and what they are likely to accomplish over the years remaining between 2007 and 2010.

Great choices although I prefer McEnroe over Lendl in the 80s........

 

[FedSampras]

..............

 

[FedSampras]

get over your Gunther Parche-esque pro-Seles obsession!

yes, the stabber was a Grafan........

 

[Gizo]

Borg was greater than Connors in the 70s. Connors certainly wasn't the best player in 1975, 1977 and 1978, regardless of what the computer said. Borg won at least one grand slam title in 6 different years in the decade, compared to Connors's 3.

 

[joe sch]

A few things: 1) Connors' was rated by a system that weighted three-year results and in general was faulty; 2) Borg was named player of the year from 76 to 80 ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ATP_Awards) and Ashe was POE in 75. 3) Connors won a lot of tournaments with weak fields, frequently skipping deeper WCT events where the likes of Borg and Ashe played.



You can also look at the H2H between the two. Ostensibly, Connors had an edge on Borg 74-76, but Borg began to win their battles from 77 on with considerable consistency.

http://www.atptennis.com/3/en/players/headtohead/default.asp?playernum1=B058&playernum2=C044

CyBorg, You made some excellent points, especially with the computer ranking system that has been improved. I personally liked Borg better especially when you consider sportsmanship and gamesmanship. Jimbo was an entertainer and his matches really did alot to help the tennis boom in the US.

Joe

 

[msunderland71]

Lendl over Mac

I'd like to stick up for Lendl over McEnroe in 1980's. Lendl won more slams, more tournaments, many more weeks at no.1, more of their head to head meetings in the 1980's. Yes McEnroe was more famous, but we are talking about them as players.
These decade rankings favour players born near the start of a decade, as they usually have their peak (20-30 years old) neatly in one decade.

Great choices although I prefer McEnroe over Lendl in the 80s........

 

[hoodjem]

Court

I said my peace>> Deal with it. Graf is the Greatest of all time, including the 90's.

"the first woman in the open era to win all four Grand Slam singles titles in the same calendar year. Court won a record 24 Grand Slam singles titles, more than any other player – male or female – in tennis. She won a record 62 Grand Slam titles – 24 singles, 19 women's doubles, and 19 mixed doubles, again, more than any other player – male or female – in tennis."