for the attn of tricky - the Monfils serve motion

[tricky]

I think this week I might be trying for more of the pinpoint 2-step. And out of everyone I can think of, Nadal's present serve comes closest to what I have in mind.

Mmm, but keep in mind that Nadal uses a platform style and doesn't step up with his feet. Do you want to try a true pinpoint style where the feet actually slide as you go?

(although he seems to be the only pro out there who just puts his feet together, goes down a bit, then bobs up?!)

It's not really a bob or a up-and-down motion per se. It's still about the hips with Monfils, which leads to the knee bend and release. But I don't think a driving-style is well suited for you. And sop . . .

Anyhow, whatever you might care to say re going from a Monfils to a Nadal (if you will) is really appreciated, and not least because of all the effort to put these posts.

Yeah, I think a coiling base style (which is what Nadal does) is what feels more natural for you. The 2nd page post starts to cover that:

http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showpost.php?p=3550170&postcount=29

It's still a little different than what Nadal does, but the base is the same.

 

[Ross K]

Mmm, but keep in mind that Nadal uses a platform style and doesn't step up with his feet. Do you want to try a true pinpoint style where the feet actually slide as you go?



It's not really a bob or a up-and-down motion per se. It's still about the hips with Monfils, which leads to the knee bend and release. But I don't think a driving-style is well suited for you. And sop . . .



Yeah, I think a coiling base style (which is what Nadal does) is what feels more natural for you. The 2nd page post starts to cover that:

http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showpost.php?p=3550170&postcount=29

It's still a little different than what Nadal does, but the base is the same.

On reflection, I think you're right....

Rather than jumping the gun maybe (and probably getting hopelessly, woefully lost in all of this ), I think I'll just concentrate on the content of the post you've reposted above and just work on those basics... following the great advance I seemed to make (and in such a short time too), I should really be trying to reinforce that and not shoot way ahead of myself with new theories, experiments, techniques, etc.

The only queries I have concerns my foot and leg positionings and movements through the motion - basically, should I just do my Monfils feet set close together up-down thing (although, yes, I take your point he doesn't in fact just do this), like I was doing last week, or should I be experimenting with something a little different in your opinion? And also, as you seem to think this might be the most appropriate style for me, can you please point out some more pro's who use a coiling base style?

Many thanks

R.

 

[crosscourt]

tricky

Can I ask you one further question? In my coiling method, what should i concentrate on to keep my CoG in the court even as I rotate away from the court?

many thanks

cc

 

[Ross K]

On reflection, I think you're right....

Rather than jumping the gun maybe (and probably getting hopelessly, woefully lost in all of this ), I think I'll just concentrate on the content of the post you've reposted above and just work on those basics... following the great advance I seemed to make (and in such a short time too), I should really be trying to reinforce that and not shoot way ahead of myself with new theories, experiments, techniques, etc.

The only queries I have concerns my foot and leg positionings and movements through the motion - basically, should I just do my Monfils feet set close together up-down thing (although, yes, I take your point he doesn't in fact just do this), like I was doing last week, or should I be experimenting with something a little different in your opinion? And also, as you seem to think this might be the most appropriate style for me, can you please point out some more pro's who use a coiling base style?

Many thanks

R.

What would be even better still would be pro's who, unlike Fed for example, use a coiling base style with an abbreviated or semi-abbreviated motion!!!

 

[tricky]

cc

In my coiling method, what should i concentrate on to keep my CoG in the court even as I rotate away from the court?

I usually talk about the windup as focal points: hip (hip rotation or weight transfer/ground reaction force), belly button (torso rotation or loading into windup), lowest part of ribcage (abduction or heavy spin), highest part of rib cage (transverse abduction or flatter angles), and collar bone (pronation or, uhh, pronation). And then I apply the following rule set.

1a) If you're serving to ad-court, make sure the left leg doesn't lock out as you windup.
1b) The "points" contributing to the windup are usually on the right side of body.

2a) If you're serving to duece-court, make sure the right leg doesn't lock out as you windup.
2b) The "points" contributing to the windup are usually on the left side of body.

BUT, for now, you just may want to try out the following (a la Kyrill.) This will force your body to use forward momentum as you toss and windup.

1) Lift your left foot off the ground
2) Try to execute your service motion, keeping your left foot up until you're ready to strike the ball.

Basically, in the above exercise, if your momentum isn't going into the court, there's no way you can toss the ball in front of you. Moreover, if you try coiling with your back, you'll end up losing your balance. If, however, your momentum is going into the court, your front foot may start to come down, but it'll also come well, well forward as if you're coming off a pitcher's mound.

Ross

What would be even better still would be pro's who, unlike Fed for example, use a coiling base style with an abbreviated or semi-abbreviated motion!!!

That would be Nadal and Gasquet. Coil platform with an abbreviated takeback. I think it's most natural for you.

You can also try the following exercise to kinda get a sense of the feel.

1) Get a sock with a ball in it.
2) Lift your front foot up .
3) Wind up, then throw with the sock aiming to your right (i.e. to ad-court.) Keep the foot up through the windup
4) After awhile, start observing the belly button and hips, and how they coordinate together.
5) Now, do this with both feet normally on the ground.
6) Repeat steps 1-5, throwing the sock to the left (i.e. to duece-court.)

The above will give you a good sense of the power base for a coiling motion should feel like.

 

[crosscourt]

Thank you.

s

 

[Ross K]

tricky,

Thanks for above^... and you know what? This is (Gasquet's serve), I think, the closest in terms of what I presently do (or did this morning certainly), and especially re what he does with his feet throughout the motion (though the racket possibly goes more sharply up to the shoulder than I do.) Of course Gasquet's serve is a work of art in comparison to my 'efforts', but it's nice to see something akin to what I'm doing, and to have an enhanced idea, a template, and to know of what it should be I'm aiming for.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=leO7TzjSCr8&NR=1

Thanks again

R.

BTW, Got a funny feeling I'm going to be studying a lot of Gasquet serve vids in the next day or two!!

BTW2, Today I observed how, just after the toss, I quite noticably was raising up on to the toes of my front foot as my front knee kind of jutted forwards in a more pronounced manner than usual... it was as if my weight was shifting forwards differently and I wasn't so leaden footed as the toss rose up... anyhow, it felt natural, it felt good (!), but is this actually desirable?... R.

 

[tricky]

Ross,

Of course Gasquet's serve is a work of art in comparison to my 'efforts', but it's nice to see something akin to what I'm doing, and to have an enhanced idea, a template, and to know of what it should be I'm aiming for.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=leO7TzjSCr8&NR=1

Starting from 0:11 (as he's initiating toss), watch his belly button.

You'll notice that it's turning away even as he's tossing the ball. What this tells you is that he's loading the torso or windup through the entire motion after he's separated the hand. In a coiling motion, this twisting of the torso dominates the windup, and it also affects the direction of the hips

The hips are rotating and moving with forward momentum during the entire windup. However, on video, until the torso has twisted past square with the right side fence, it doesn't appear that the front hip is moving into the court. This has to do with the angles of the bones and the sequence of the chain. When torso rotation is the first stage of the chain (i.e. a coiling motion), your posture straightens up When you straighten up, it looks like as if your trunk is moving backwards initially, and depending on the angle of the torso that the hip starts out rocking backwards. However, this itself doesn't prevent hip rotation. Your intention is still the same. The hips still should be moving "forward", even as your posture straightens up from the coiling motion. It's just you won't see it until your torso reaches past square with the fence.

However, this one thing confuses a lot of people, and it leads people to think that the hip should come forward later in the windup. Which is not true at all. Moreover, it leads to people misinterpreting what they think they see in Federer's windup. They look the first few frames after he separate his hands and conclude that they should rock backwards. Thus, when they separate their hands, they end up with a hitch where they shift all their weight backwards. That is the wrong time to do that; that needs to be done when you bring your hands together. The hitch leads to the shoulder-over-shoulder alignment getting screwed up.

That all said, this stuff solves itself quickly if you try the exercise where you keep the front foot up while executing the toss and windup. Because if you try rocking backwards, you'll end up falling backwards. And if you don't move into the court as you toss, the ball will not land in front of you.

I quite noticably was raising up on to the toes of my front foot as my front knee kind of jutted forwards in a more pronounced manner than usual..

If I'm visualizing this correctly, then yeah that's the right idea. The key thing is that the knees are a sign, not the cause. Consciously "bending your knees" or "jutting your knees forward" won't improve the serve. However, those aspects come out if the windup and toss are being executed more correctly..

Ideally, you want this to already start happening even as the ball has not release from your hand. Then, you know your momentum is moving forward through the toss and at least most of the windup. If you look at the Gasquet clip from 0:15-0:16, you'll notice that the front knee is already bending forward before he releases the ball.

 

[Ross K]

tricky,

All very interesting ^...

And this I'll definitely remember:

That all said, this stuff solves itself quickly if you try the exercise where you keep the front foot up while executing the toss and windup. Because if you try rocking backwards, you'll end up falling backwards. And if you don't move into the court as you toss, the ball will not land in front of you.

So, shall spend the next few days now just reinforcing these basics:

. rack arm being slightly pulled forwards and over left arm

. front foot up on toss and wind

. hip flexor and belly button turn (the side always opposite to the court in which you're serving to)

. 'dead arm' toss

. shoulder/upper back (etc) takeback to shoulder and then unload the right hook!

. shoulder over shoulder cartwheel sensation

. pronate

. land on left foot (Watching those Coach Kyril lessons on the 2-step serve has revealed to me this might be worth working on.)


Cheers as always (and at the risk of repeating myself, it's so good to now have Gasquet as a template because I was in danger of getting a bit lost without actually seeing someone who's motion is largely like my own or what I aspire to.)

R.

 

[crosscourt]

tricky

I have been looking at front on footage of Murray when he is serving. What a revelation! I see exactly what you mean about the illusion of arching his back. There is as you say a stretch and a knee bend.

And I hadn't realised quite how similar Murray's serve is to Federer's.

cc

 

[Ross K]

progress report & Q about wrist inversion on fh and serve

tricky,

I played twice last week, and did a lot of work on my own too (doing some of the excersizes you've outlined previously.)

Well, I'm pleased to report that I feel my motion has really solidified and has come some way in only a few weeks. It feels different. It looks different. And the results are different. More MPH and oomph, More definition. It feels far more like it knows what it's doing, if that makes any sense? And with that Gasquet template to aim for, I'm comfortable and happy. In the final analysis, I know I just need to stay with the programe so to speak, keep up those exercises and isolating the different components and mechanics. (And btw, I especially feel I need to work more on solidifying the hip flexors/belly button leading component because I've observed that if I'm a bit slack with this, like, say, I'm more focussed on a later aspect such as the stretched takeback with the shoulder/upper right torso or whatever, well, then it sort of messes up everything...) Annnyway...

Now for a quick Q about supination/wrist inversion on fh and serve (and even bh I think)...

I have restumbled on this old trait. Namely inverting or stretching inwards or is it supinating (?) my right wrist at the very start of the serve motion (it's like your holding the frame at a slight angle outwards whilst your wrist is slightly inverted towards the body.) Furthermore, I found myself doing this yesterday on my fh too as I'm tracking the incoming ball. And I also do something 'related' or similar on the 2hbh I believe. Anyhow, it's an old trait that I originally adopted from studying Roddick... but is it worthwhile or merely an affectation?... any ideas on what good/bad influences this might have on my form?... what purpose does it provide for ARod?

Thanks again for all the input

R.

 

[tricky]

Namely inverting or stretching inwards or is it supinating (?) my right wrist at the very start of the serve motion (it's like your holding the frame at a slight angle outwards whilst your wrist is slightly inverted towards the body.)

Mmm I guess I'm having difficulties visualizing this. When Roddick starts his service motion, the racquet tip is pointing inwards and the wrist is somewhat facing the ground. If anything, it's in a slightly pronated position before the service motion begins.

Roddick has a neat little trick that some other servers (Sampras, I think) also do . When he initiates his toss, he brings his left elbow slightly in, such that the tip of his left elbow points toward the ground. Then he lifts the tossing arm. This actually helps the right service arm load more efficiently. You get a better, easier stretch, and your pronation will be stronger.

 

[aimr75]

Roddick has a neat little trick that some other servers (Sampras, I think) also do . When he initiates his toss, he brings his left elbow slightly in, such that the tip of his left elbow points toward the ground. Then he lifts the tossing arm. This actually helps the right service arm load more efficiently. You get a better, easier stretch, and your pronation will be stronger.

can you point out at what point this occurs in this clip?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=muKDqiVer0k

 

[tricky]

aimr75,

Between 0:12-0:13.

It's just a simple tucking motion one can do with the guide/tossing arm, and it can be used with both the serve and 2H BH. When you do this, your takeback is better "tracked" for the natural arc associated with shoulder rotation. As a result, you get both a better stretch on the shoulder and you get better pronation (your wrist will lay back a lot more when you get to the racquet drop.) Also, it helps to keep the toss a little more stable.

In a traditional service motion, you can do this "elbow pointing toward gtround" tuck when you drop the tossing arm to separate hand from racquet.

 

[aimr75]

thanks tricky, will have to try this

 

[Ross K]

Mmm I guess I'm having difficulties visualizing this. When Roddick starts his service motion, the racquet tip is pointing inwards and the wrist is somewhat facing the ground. If anything, it's in a slightly pronated position before the service motion begins.

Roddick has a neat little trick that some other servers (Sampras, I think) also do . When he initiates his toss, he brings his left elbow slightly in, such that the tip of his left elbow points toward the ground. Then he lifts the tossing arm. This actually helps the right service arm load more efficiently. You get a better, easier stretch, and your pronation will be stronger.

Maybe I'm getting the terms pronation and supination mixed up and I should've said 'pronated'?

What I do mean is, citing the more normal positioning, the racket tip isn't held out front fairly straight with both arms and pulled forwards. Rather it is held noticibily flexed or bent on the racket arm with the racket hand placed a little forwards (or away from body), hence the racket tip is angled more inwards, the wrist appears inverted (or turned/cocked inwards)... and as I said, I think he also does something extremely similar on his fh as he's tracking the ball.

Or maybe my eyes are playing tricks on me or I'm slightly imagining stuff?!

Secondly, I've never noticed myself or heard any mention at all of his tossing arm elbow tucked in or facing the ground; but as soon as you say this though, I instantly know what you mean!... Yeeeees, he def does do this!... hmmm... maybe I'll try it out?

R.

 

[drak]

This is such a good thread on the abbreviated serve that I wanted to add a great sequence of photos on the Roddick Serve for folks to view. This is way better to break the serve down than a slowmo video.

Drak

http://www.usatoday.com/sports/tennis/andy-roddick-serve.htm

 

[drak]

well after a couple of reads of key posts here and studying some of the excellent videos of Roddick and others I went out today to experiment with the abbreviated serve. I tried a few different stances and preferred a Roddick like stance - it really helped me use a more unified leg action and it felt the most natural. Initially the timing was difficult, but interestingly I experimented and started to lift my front left heel off the ground to begin the motion - not a full lift of the front foot like Roddick but definitely a lift, that really helped my timing.
So to start the motion my left heel went up and that initiated the racket take back. All of a sudden I was cranking some serves, much better than my normal motion. Now I was somewhat inconsistent but when I did the timing right my serve felt great. I was especially hitting the down the T serve and the serve to the backhand corner on the ad side very well. The serve to the FH side was harder to do with any consistency. I noticed my serves were hitting 4-5 ft up the back curtain, which is really good for me. Second serves were quite good to with considerably more action and pace, decent consistency.
For a guy coming off major rotator cuff surgery my shoulder felt fine and this was the best I felt hitting serves in a few years. I hope its not a one-day wonder, I am going to give this service style a big time go.

Drak