for the attn of tricky - the Monfils serve motion

[Ross K]

tricky,

Fantastic to see you back again posting here. Your insights and technical knowledge, as well as your friendly and helpful manner have certainly been missed in these parts. I do recall many posts and threads - be it on Agassi's bh, the straight-arm fh, Henin's serve or practicing your racket drop with a ball inside a sock - where the debating and analysis has been absolutely fascinating. Anyhow, great to read your posts once more... suddenly the tennis tips section has got a whole lot more interesting.

My Q though...

As a devotee of the abbreviated or semi-abbreviated serve, I wondered, just to ensure it is indeed being properly understood, if it might be possible for you to give a brief summation of the prerequisite basics of the Monfils serve motion (basically, my serve has gone from a full abbreviated motion like ARod to a slightly more simplified and more semi-abbreviated motion like Monfils... although you might vaguely recall I also studied Nadal's and even Henin's serve?)

BTW, by 'basics' of the Monfils-type serve, I just mean something a bit more insightful and technically minded than how I might personally choose to describe it, namely "Feet together, racket arm fans back and up to shoulder, toss and baaam!"... :lol:

If you could find a few choice words I'd really appreciate it and could just hone in on that when I practice.

Many thanks

R.

I've added some vids below that hopefully will come out ok and will assist you maybe... cheers again!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OTOQlAeEXaw&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mMCk1OK4Lw0

 

[subaru3169]

not exactly sure what you want us to say.. but after looking at his service motion, his feet don't move, his racket head comes straight up at the ball toss and he hops forward as he strikes

was there something specific you wanted to know??

 

[tricky]

Ross K,

First, some notes on abbreviated serves. These apply to all abbreviated serve styles.

When You Brings Hand and Racquet Together at Beginning

1) You want to lower your right (service) arm over the left (tossing) arm. (This is different from classical, where you raise the right arm over the left arm. You can verify the contrast in clips.)

2) Verify that your right shoulder is above your left shoulder.

When You Initiate Windup and Toss

1) Do not let the tossing arm fall when you initiate the toss. (This is different from classical, where you should let the tossing arm fall before taking it up.)

Takeback

Some people, when executing the abbreviated takeback, just go straight back with the arm, as if they're elbowing somebody right behind them. This is actually not right, and it's the #1 reason why people start "arming" the abbreviated serve. This wrong kind of takeback is similar to what a boxer might do to jab.

The takeback is more like the one when you apply a right hook in boxing. You should feel a "sideway" stretch around the juncture between the collarbone and shoulder joint. As with normal service technique, don't try to "guide" the takeback with your hand. Simply let the windup stretch the shoulder.

Visualizing that you're going to hit down on the ball helps too.

Now onto Monfils. The following stuff is loaded, but here goes . . .

Your Power Base

In terms of the kinetic chain related to the power base (core and lower body) of a windup, there's basically 4 major styles that pros use: "drive-platform" (Sampras,Monfils), "coil-platform" (Federer,Nadal), "drive-pinpoint" (Murray,Roddick), and "coil-pinpoint" (Safin.) When you use a "driving" style, it's somewhat like a groundstroke where you visualize driving in a line to the ball. Whereas when you use a "coiling" style, you're visualizing yourself turning and then uncoiling into the ball. Now, all four styles use a lot of hip and torso rotation and produce both linear and angular momentum, but the feel is very different.

The key thing is that you don't really want to flip flop between the four types. You have to reprogram the kinetic chain in your windup, and change up your visualization. It's a pain. So, I'll just show you the "drive-platform" style, which applies to both Sampras and Monfils.

Learning the Drive-Platform

1) Assume a platform stance for serving to ad court. Visualize the court in front of you
2) Focus on your hip. Start bringing your hip toward the court.
3) Focus on your belly button. Start twisting your torso away from the court with the belly button.
4) As you windup, visualize that you're leaping forward into the court.
5) Notice as you windup, notice how the weight falls onto the balls of your feet and how your knees bend.
6) Unwind and windup a few times.
7) Try steps 1-6, assuming a platform stance for service to deuce court.

You do this for awhile, and more or less you'll come to these principles for the windup.

If you're serving to the ad court,
1) Start bringing the right hip (right hip flexor) forward.
2) Start twisting the torso with the right side of the belly button (right oblique muscle.)
3) Do not let the left leg lock out.
4) Visualize driving into the ball.

If you're serving to the deuce court,
1) Start bringing the left hip (left hip flexor) forward.
2) Start twisting the torso with the left side of the belly button (left oblique muscle.)
3) Do not let the right leg lock out.
4) Visualize driving into the ball.

Bringing the Hands Together and Setting Up the Windup

After you've done the above for awhile, then you can also visualize doing this in reverse. And when you do it in reverse (belly button, then hip, away from the court), you'll notice that you get a positin somehwat like a Monfils or Sampras.

The above is what's done before you bring your hands together. It helps to set up the kinetic chain of the windup. Then, when you initiate the toss, the kinetic chain automatically starts in proper sequence. So, let's it put together . . .

Basic Abbreviated Serve using a Drive-Platform Base

1) Set up stance
2) Start turning torso toward court.
3) Bring hip away from court
4) Lower right arm over left arm. Verify that right shoulder is above left.
5) Toss (without dropping arm) and initiate windup. Note that your windup will already start as you toss the ball. Your center of gravity will be forward or in front of you. Your body will be already moving into the court as you toss and windup.
6) Visualize driving through the ball.

At this point, you may want to stop and just work on the above. It's pretty close to Monfils's serve. But if you really want to go further . . .

Monfils's windup includes elements for getting a heavier spin as well as good pronation.

1) As you windup, visualize applying backspin the ball. You'll probably feel a stretch around your lowest ribcage. This facilitates the racquet face sliding down on the ball, applying heavier spin.
2) As you windup, visualize that the ball is made of concrete. You'll probably feel a stretch around your collarbone. This faclitates pronation.

We add these two elements to the kinetic chain. This goes as follows.

If you're serving to the ad court,
1) Start bringing the right hip (right hip flexor) forward.
2) Start twisting the torso with the right side of the belly button (right oblique muscle.)
3) Start stretching/twisting around the lowest right ribcage.
4) Start stretching around the right collarbone.
5) Do not let the left leg lock out.
6) Visualize driving into the ball, with spin and pronation.

If you're serving to the deuce court,
1) Start bringing the left hip (right hip flexor) forward.
2) Start twisting the torso with the left side of the belly button (right oblique muscle.)
3) Start stretching/twisting around the lowest left ribcage.
4) Start stretching around the left collarbone.
5) Do not let the right leg lock out.
6) Visualize driving into the ball with spin and pronation.

Work through the windup motion for awhile.

Now, we put it all together. Just as before, you execute the windup in reverse and bring the hands together.

Monfils-style Serve

1) Set up stance
2) Start bringing collarbone toward court.
3) Start turning lowest point of ribcage toward court
4) Start turning torso toward court.
5) Bring hip away from court
6) Lower right arm over left arm. Verify that right shoulder is above left.
7) Toss (without dropping arm) and initiate windup. Note that your windup will already start as you toss the ball. Your center of gravity will be forward or in front of you. Your body will be already moving into the court as you toss and windup.
8) Visualize driving through the ball with spin and pronation.

And, finally, if you want to go for a "Roddick shoulder", ehhh I'll tell you some other time.

 

[Ross K]

subaru,

not exactly sure what you want us to say.. but after looking at his service motion, his feet don't move, his racket head comes straight up at the ball toss and he hops forward as he strikes

was there something specific you wanted to know??

Er, yeah... please see above!



tricky,

Absolutely brilliant stuff there!... I can only echo what was said in that serve critique thread recently by Will (YFB)... "tricky is back!"

Right. Now I need to take my time with all that info and make sure I understand it properly.

Awesome post, and I may well have some followup Q's.

Many thanks

R.

BTW, Inspired by the that serve critique thread I've been trying to look up articles by Brian Gordon on centre of gravity going forwards/moving hips properly into court and 'dragging' rest of motion theory... can't wait to focus on that a bit as well linking it to the Monfils serve...

BTW2, I think I'll be bringing out that sock and ball again too!

 

[Ross K]

tricky,

Wow, just read the whole post... I've got a lot of work ahead of me!... lol!...

1 immediate query though... You mention nothing at all related to what is maybe the most obvious signifier of his motion and style to me, namely Gael appears to begin with his feet planted right together in a parallel position (exactly the same as Roddick and nothing like Sampras who has a big gap between his feet.)

Second to that, I don't quite see how Sampras and Monfils share the same 'drive-platform' major style (as relates to the 4 kinetic chain/core power base/wind up types) - to me their motions would appear to be pretty different (unlike, say, Gasquet/Monfils/ARod, who's styles all seem fairly of a kind.)

Finally... toss height?... I would be interested to hear a bit re Monfils and other abbrev. servers different toss heights and what this means.

Anyway... cheers very much again for such a comprehensive reply.

R.

 

[lightning.lu10]

What are the advantages of an abbreviated service motion?

 

[tricky]

What are the advantages of an abbreviated service motion?

For many people, it's easier to get the "shoulder over shoulder" cartwheel motion with an abbreviated serve. Getting that motion is perhaps the one most important thing in service form.

I don't quite see how Sampras and Monfils share the same 'drive-platform' major style (as relates to the 4 kinetic chain/core power base/wind up types)

Yeahhhhh . . . okay, so technically what I mean by platform and pinpoint, I'm really speaking to "foot back" and "foot up" respectively. In other words, whether the foot is going to move in the motion or not. When the feet move, you focus on your feet through the windup and driving off the ground (ground reaction force.) When the feet don't move, you can focus on smacking the ball as hard as possible. And this is because the order/sequence of the kinetic chain is different.

Abbreviated form generally requires less stride (which again makes it easier for many people), and so the feet generally are closer together (though that also varies.) Also, yes, the feet in a platform stance are more parallel with each other. You'll notice the feet move less when you bring the hands together for an abbreviated takeback than a classical one.

Having said all that, the sequencing of the kinetic chain in regards to torso and hip rotation are pretty much the same between the two forms.

(unlike, say, Gasquet/Monfils/ARod, who's styles all seem fairly of a kind.)

All 3 are pretty different, actually. Most people who look at service clips are trained to watch the loop. Because there is no real loop in an abbreviated serve, it tends to look all the same. Then you maybe look at the feet, how they set up the hands, height of ball toss, etc. And all that also tends to look the same, because there aren't many pros who are using it at this current date.

The base of their power are sequenced differently between all three. Monfils is "drive platform." A-Rod is "drive pinpoint." Also, both Monfils and A-Rod's windups are set up to produce heavy spin. This is mutually exclusive to the base of their power. Gasquet is "coil platform." He, like Nadal, also sets up his windup to emphasize less on spin and more on getting a flatter shot with a steeper angel. He tends to have a higher ball toss than Roddick.

Finally... toss height?... I would be interested to hear a bit re Monfils and other abbrev. servers different toss heights and what this means.

Toss height is more or less dictated by the windup. The abbreviated style gives less overall space for the windup, so the toss height won't be as great. Having said that, that's not why Roddick's ball toss is as low as it is. His windup doesn't give him enough access to steeper angles, but that's not a reflection of an abbreviated takeback. It's just simply he doesn't have that "stage" in his windup, whereas a Gasquet actually does. This also affects the toss height.

Generally speaking, when the windup is set up for heavy spin, the tossing arm will have a little more force behind it. When the windup is set up for flatter angle, the tossing arm will have a "longer" toss before it reaches the release point. If you have both, your ball toss will be pretty high and close to what you see with a classical-style server. If you have neither, ball toss will be lower and your serve may look close to something Bill Tilden would do. These elements will reveal themselves when you bring the hands together. So, for example, when you look at Gasquet, notice how low his tossing arm (much lower than Roddick and Monfils) is before he initiates a ball toss. It's similar to a more classical position.

The main point is that the windup tends to dictate much of the toss. As a result, trying to tweak the toss height and positioning for their own sake (rather than in producing a certain kind of serve) will actually cause problems with service mechanics.

 

[[d]ragon]

Amazing posts tricky. There are aspects to the serve I never knew of. I'm going to start experimenting with my serve with some of the points you've brought up.

Also, isn't Monfils' serve a pinpoint drive like Roddick's? Could you explain why you classified his as a platform drive like Sampras'?

 

[tricky]

I'm going to start experimenting with my serve with some of the points you've brought up.

Ross tends to like the esoteric stuff, so I usually oblige on that. But, I think initially, you just want to master the "right shoulder over left shoulder" cartwheel motion and your center of gravity moving forward or being in front of you during the toss and windup. That's the most important part. The rest is just mad scientist type stuff.

Also, isn't Monfils' serve a pinpoint drive like Roddick's?

I qualify Mofils' serve as platform, mostly because his feet doesn't move (i.e. "step back.") I probably should just use "step back" or "step up", but I don't know if many people would understand what that means.

There's a different sequence when trying to do a pinpoint drive (as with all four types.) But, when done correctly, it's actually easy to replicate Roddick's "two step dance." I didn't realize that until I better understood what he was actually doing. You can emulate this at home:

Learning Drive-Pinpoint

1) Pretend that you're in a court. Assume a slight pinpoint stance for serving to ad court. Visualize the baseline in front of you
2) Focus on your belly button. Start twisting your torso away from the baseline with the belly button. Do not let either leg lock out.
3a) Focus on your hip. Start bringing your hip toward the baseline .
3b) As you do 3a), let the foot come up and slide to the front foot. You'll notice that the feet come in together, very narrow and almost parallel with each other.
4) As you windup, visualize that you will drive forward from the ground.
5) Notice as you windup, notice how the weight falls onto the balls of your feet and feel that weight against the ground.
6) Unwind and windup a few times. Every time, visualize turning and uncoiling into the court
7) Try steps 1-6, assuming a platform stance for serving to deuce court.

Now, if you focus on the above, you imagine doing this in reverse. And this is where the "Roddick two step" happens. When you do the motion in reverse, it looks like this:

1) Assume a moderate platform stance, where feet are almost parallel.
2) Start moving hip away from court. Notice how the front foot starts to turn in a little, between platform and pinpoint.
3) Start turning torso square to net. Let the front foot start sliding in. Voila -- the Roddick "two step."
4) Bring hands together.

Basic Abbreviated Serve using a Coil-Platform Base

1) Set up stance with feet roughly parallel
2) Start bringing hip away from court. Let front foot slide in.
3) Start turning torso toward net.
4) Lower your right arm over left arm to bring them together. Verify that right shoulder is above left.
5) Initiate toss without lowering the tossing arm.
6) Initiate windup. Let back foot slide in.
7) Visualize your weight against the ground, and then driving forward off the ground.

Then, throwing in the bells and whistles (minus technique used to help get you a freaky shoulder drop) . . . .

Roddick-style Serve

1) Set up stance with feet roughly parallel
2) Start bringing hip away from court.
3) Start bringing collarbone toward court.
4) Start turning lowest point of ribcage toward court
5) Start turning torso toward net. Let front foot slide in.
6) Lower your right arm over left arm to bring them together. Verify that right shoulder is above left.
7) Initiate toss without lowering the tossing arm.
8) Initiate windup. Let the hip, moving forward, slide the back foot in.
9) Visualize your weight against the ground, and then driving forward off the ground.

Note: If you look at steps 3-5 closely, you'll see out that the windup sequence is torso-ribcage-collarbone-hip. In other words, the sequence of the power base "sandwiches" the rest of the trunk's stages in the windup. And that is a mechanical difference between "step up" (pinpoint) and "step back" (platform). With platform-style serves, your focus usually is the hand to the ball. With pinpoint, it's feet off ground.

 

[J011yroger]

Tricky,

Any chance you could send me a private e-mail?

J

 

[tricky]

Holla back at

trickykid123@gmail.com

If it's for sexual favors, you better be hot.

 

[Ross K]

tricky,

If it's for sexual favors, you better be hot.

Well, if that's what you're after, I think I know someone who's happy to oblige...

:lol:

R.

 

[Ross K]

tricky,

Okay. Sorry to scare you with the above nightmarish image! :shock:

Now just a quick Q on toss up before I start trying to put some of this into practice this week...

Do you solely advise using the... (what's the best way to put it?)... 'petrol-pump', straight up, smooth and level elevation toss style? Or do you also say it's fine to spin it up - (thus giving it more of a pronounced long C shape trajectory) - with a bit of wrist-turn?

I ask because I always thought the straight up style was the correct - (because it's far more reliable) - choice. But recently I started finding that, though a little more prone to error, spinning it up C shape-style seemed to help with power and topspin and how I came up at the ball (more dynamic somehow?)

Anyway, thought I should clarify this basic point first.

Cheers

R.

 

[tricky]

Sorry to scare you with the above nightmarish image!

Can't . . . think . . . .butt . . . crack . . .

'petrol-pump', straight up, smooth and level elevation toss style?

Preferably. The tossing arm should feel so dead that this is your only viable choice.

If it's not, then that suggests your tossing shoulder is elevating too much, and you're having problems with shoulder over shoulder alignment.

spinning it up C shape-style seemed to help with power and topspin and how I came up at the ball (more dynamic somehow?)

I don't recommend it, but I can see where it can help with power and topspin. My guess is that when you try to flick the ball, you probably also feel a stretch around the top ribcage in your windup. That's a stage that wasn't discussed earlier, but what that does is enable you to do hit from a much higher point (thus higher toss) and steeper angle. So, as a result, not only can you hit flatter serves.

 

[ho]

Tricky,

Any chance you could send me a private e-mail?

J

this is the way to direct dialog with Tricky. No question Tricky have plenty of knowledge and good behavior in public. it hard to find a gentleman like him. My hat off to him. However dialog with just Tricky and want Tricky to answer your question (Ross K) only is not something we should do, it may hurt other feeling and willing to contribute.

 

[lightning.lu10]

On my service, I'm stepping my back leg up, but in front of my other leg. I feel that it leads to me overrotating sometimes and I've never seen anyone do this motion. Is the motion wrong?

 

[tricky]

I'm stepping my back leg up, but in front of my other leg.

If I'm interpreting this right, you mean a pinpoint serve where you end up having the feet almost in line with each other. This is called a lateral pinpoint serve. Safin and Goran do it. In terms of power base, it's a "coil pinpoint" style.

I feel that it leads to me overrotating sometimes

Yeah, usually this means that the hip is not coming forward early enough in the stroke.

As you begin the windup, you want the hip to starting coming forward. Verify that your legs are not locking out. Then, twist around the torso (turning around the belly button), letting the foot slide. The key thing is that your hips and torso are both coming forward even as you coil. Visualize the whole coiling motion.

Now, if you do this correctly, the overrotation should take care of itself. In other words, as you land, your back foot shouldn't still be spinning around. If it is, that suggests you were using your lower back or your hips at some point to turn the torso.

 

[lightning.lu10]

If I'm interpreting this right, you mean a pinpoint serve where you end up having the feet almost in line with each other. This is called a lateral pinpoint serve. Safin and Goran do it. In terms of power base, it's a "coil pinpoint" style.

No, I mean like this

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wy0ivhxX0p4&feature=channeln

except my feet are more parallel to the baseline.

 

[Ross K]

tricky, others,

Ross tends to like the esoteric stuff, so I usually oblige on that. But, I think initially, you just want to master the "right shoulder over left shoulder" cartwheel motion and your center of gravity moving forward or being in front of you during the toss and windup. That's the most important part. The rest is just mad scientist type stuff.

Well, this is definitely what I'm concentrating on initially:


. racket-hand on top of ball (thus ensuring r. shoulder is above left just prior to wind up/toss

. hip leading gravity centre moving forwards

. twisting that belly button area away from court (please see below)

. learning to recognize and execute correctly coming up on the balls of my feet and then naturally bending at the knees (and not locking on the back leg or having my gravity centre fall back on itself)

. using a 'dead arm' toss

. a 'right hook feeling' as your about to unload into the ball (as opposed to a jab feeling)

. visualize/feel your about to dynamically leap and spring

. looking for that cartwheel shoulder motion or r. shoulder over l. shoulder motion as you contact the ball

. visualise/feel smashing concrete/coming over the ball


As for the 'more esoteric/mad scientist' stuff, I'll hopefully be moving on to all that as I progress and advance (I'm looking forward to performing all the chain sequences in different orders - wo, that'll be a test!) But I am of course at the beginning (though I had a little time yesterday where I was working just about exclusively on hip leading cov and belly button twisting away... and it quickly felt like I was starting to stretch out and move a whole area that has been pretty much dormant for years!)

tricky, do drop me any cautionary notes or whatever (if possible) should my above descriptions show any misunderstandings or if you think I've omitted some other fundamentals. Also, I'd love to hear a tiny bit more detail as re twisting the belly button area away from court (just after you've began the hip lead cov pull.) I think I'm doing this right but just want to make double-sure.

Many thanks tricky.

R.

BTW, Anyone else adding some of this to their serve practice or whatever? Share your observations!

 

[tricky]

. racket-hand on top of ball (thus ensuring r. shoulder is above left just prior to wind up/toss

The key thing is that you want to lower your right arm over the left. Two reasons why.

1) Moving your right arm over the left (as opposed to moving the left arm under the right arm) tells your body that the right arm will be "used" for the windup.

2) Lowering your arm tells your body that you plan to execute an abbreviated takeback.

Also, I'd love to hear a tiny bit more detail as re twisting the belly button area away from court (just after you've began the hip lead cov pull.) I think I'm doing this right but just want to make double-sure.

It's really what most people do when they throw a ball 10-15 feet as hard as possible. If you watch what your hip and core does when you stride and throw, you'll see what I mean. Things to remember.

Rule A: Right hip+right side of belly button (right oblique) = serve to ad court.
Rule B: Left hip+left side of belly button (left bolique) = serve to deuce court

Anyway, I'd probably start the learning progression like this:

Step 1: Getting the takeback, toss, and cartwheel motion down.

1) Get a sock with ball.
2) Lower right arm over left. Verify right shoulder is above left.
3) Make toss motion..
4) As you toss, you should look for a stretch in your right arm.
5) Finish motion, swinging through with the sock.

Keep doing this until you feel this is natural.

Step 2: Add the hip.

1) Get sock with ball.
2) Start lowering right arm over left.
3) Start bringing hip back or away from court. (See Rules A and B)
4) Hold position and verify right shoulder is above left.
5) Toss and finish motion.
6) Visualize the right shoulder throwing over your left.

Step 3: Power Base: Hip + torso

1) Get sock with ball.
2) Start lowering right arm over left.
3) Rotate torso toward court. (See Rules A and B)
4) Start bringing hip back or away from court. (See Rules A and B)
5) Hold position and verify right shoulder is above left.
6) Toss and finish motion.
7) Visualize that you're hitting through the ball.

 

[ho]

tricky, others,

thanks Rossy, you are a good boy.

 

[Ross K]

tricky, others,

Incredible!...

Began going through the learning progression you advised in your last post and immediately discovered a basic area where it appears there's been a glitch in my technique all this time...

Rule A: Right hip+right side of belly button (right oblique) = serve to ad court.
Rule B: Left hip+left side of belly button (left bolique) = serve to deuce court

Going through the Rule A, when serving to ad court, I actually find I have a natural tendency to lead more with my left hip/left side of belly!!!

Well, I don't know if this is common or I'm a bit of a freak, but it's very interesting what happens when you start isolating and working on subtly moving and inter-connecting these various aspects.

I shall try to correct this wrong form through practice.... I'm also playing tomorrow so hopefully I can introduce a little bit of this.

Looking forward to working my way through those learning progressions tricky

Cheers!

R.

 

[tricky]

Going through the Rule A, when serving to ad court, I actually find I have a natural tendency to lead more with my left hip/left side of belly!!!

Possibly could be that you're mentally thinking of your base as a "coiling" motion rather than a "driving" motion. The order on the list is set for a Platform Drive base. But you may be more used to a Coiling style. It's not a big deal -- just flip the order of the hips and torso and see if it works for you, abiding by the same Rules A and B.

Step 3: Power Base: Torso+Hip (Coiling)

1) Get sock with ball.
2) Start lowering right arm over left.
3) Start bringing hip back or away from court. (See Rules A and B)
4) Start totate torso toward court. (See Rules A and B)
5) Hold position and verify right shoulder is above left.
6) Toss and finish motion.
7) Visualize that you're twisting, then uncoiling into the ball.

but it's very interesting what happens when you start isolating and working on subtly moving and inter-connecting these various aspects.

Key things initially are to feel like you're not arming the serve and that your toss and timing feel natural and connected.

 

[Ross K]

tricky, everyone,

Just thought I'd share this thought...

You know how I said earlier I didn't quite understand why you put Sampras and Monfils together in their power base style and I wondered why ARod wasn't with Monfils?...

Well, studying ARod's serve yesterday on TV at the Stella tournament (Aegon they now call it), it was apparent that his serve style was less like Monfils than I thought before. Basically, I quickly realized he was indeed turning into the ball in a very pronounced (and of course highly explosive) manner, much more in terms of almost coming around flush on to the ball - and then seeming to almost kick/spring/burst forwards as if he's got jet engines attached to his backside that have just fired! (It's no wonder he sticks his rear end out all the time!? )

To my, admittedly less than expert eye, Monfils' motion appears more linear and maybe more smooth... he just doesn't seem to turn into ball in the same way... and he also doesn't look like he's doing much at all with his close together feet (unlike ARod's "dancing feet"!)... but ARod's looks the more ferocious.

Annnyway (and although it's a bit of a needless thing to say on a thread of this quality), it just goes to prove there's so, so much more to the abbreviated serve than just the racket up to shoulder move that some ppl seem to think it's all about.

R.

 

[austintennis2005]

the real key to monfils serve?? be born with otherworldly talent, then work hard on your serve from the time you are a child

 

[tricky]

and then seeming to almost kick/spring/burst forwards as if he's got jet engines attached to his backside that have just fired!

Yeah, this reflects a pinpoint drive style. Pinpoint in the sense that he steps up and focuses on coming off his feet. "Drive" in the sense that he's bursting forward toward the ball.

The key thing is to not watch the arms so much, but the motion of the core and the legs. For example, if you look at Nadal's motion and especially his arms, it looks like he's driving into the ball. However, if you look at his legs and core, you'll notice that he's really coiling and uncoiling.

Everybody has a natural preference. My hunch is that, because Roddick had a background in baseball, he was used to a more driving style motion. As a result, he might have reverse-engineered aspects of a fielder's throw to build a serve out of it.

Aspects of what A-Rod does is truly innovative. For example, the item below . . .

and he also doesn't look like he's doing much at all with his close together feet (unlike ARod's "dancing feet"!)... but ARod's looks the more ferocious.

Much is made of A-Rod's narrow stance and its potential to really drive off the court, but I tend to view it as a symptom rather than cause.

Most people who execute a standard pinpoint serve (with the back feet moving behind the front) are using a platform drive base, just like A-Rod. In this motion, you lead the windup with the hips and torso, bringing them toward the court and dragging the back foot with it. The more you lead the hips forward, the more the knees bend. In addition, the more it looks like your legs are leaning forward, like they do with Roddick.

As you bring your hands together, you're asked to kinda do the windup backwards, bring your hips backwards or away from the court, torso toward the net, and so on. What you're doing is "making space" for your windup. If you're doing this for a driving serve, you're essentially "clearing the runway" for your hips to have more "distance" to come forward, and thereby arrive at a deeper knee bend and leg drive.

Now, here's the thing. For people preparing a pinpoint serve or step-up motion, when they bring their hips backwards, their front foot will usually turn a bit in creating the "L-shaped" feet stance associated with pinpoint. Then, they usually stop. However, Roddick keeps bringing his hips further back. As a result, his front foot starts to slide in, and it starts to look like his butt is sticking out. We know this as the first part of the "Roddick two-step dance."

So, what does this ultimately mean? Roddick, in bringing his hips (and other aspects of his windup) back farther back than anybody else, creates much, much more space for his windup than anybody else. As a result, when he initiates the windup, it's DEEP, and his hips come forward much more than anybody else. We know this by the extreme knee bend and forward lean he gets. Anybody using a pinpoint style (be it drive or coil) can do like this or similar to increase the size of their windup.

 

[tricky]

lightning

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wy0iv...ature=channeln

Yeah, that is a lateral pinpoint serve. Very powerful.

 

[Ross K]

tricky, all,

Well, today I was given the opportunity to put some of this 'learning' into a proper competitive context, with these results...

Basically I felt my serve was better than usual for about a set or so as I just focussed on the right arm over left at the start and (especially) the hip lead and belly button turn... I may have tried focussing on other areas (like shoulder over shoulder motion), but truth is I couldn't really get beyond these initial stages. TBH, it was all a bit slow and I was over-concentrating and kind of watching myself too much. That said though, generally it did feel like an improvement on my normal none-too-threatening serve (which I'd mainly put down to just working on this stuff on my own this week)... and then this happened...

Realizing I had become a bit bogged down with these initial stages and that I needed to shift my attention to a different area I recalled this:

The takeback is more like the one when you apply a right hook in boxing. You should feel a "sideway" stretch around the juncture between the collarbone and shoulder joint. As with normal service technique, don't try to "guide" the takeback with your hand. Simply let the windup stretch the shoulder.

And then not long afterwards I proceeded to produce the best serve of my motherflippin' life!!!... a pace and trajectory I've NEVER experienced before (I don't know the MPH and doubtless all you 4.0's and above can serve a lot more venomously, but for me this was serious speed)... a booming sonic ace in deuce court out wide (LOL!)... holy ****ake mushrooms!... ahhh, so this is what it feels like to serve bombs?!

Needless to say, I spent the rest of the match focussing on this and trying to recreate the feeling of throwing a right hook, and though the aces dried up, I definitely remained far quicker, heavier and altogether more powerful with my serve... the whole concept of opening up that chest, stretching out that upper right collarbone/back area etc, and just teeing off like Mike Tyson... well, I'm not sure why, but that just SO works for me...

Now then... if I could actually put that together with the whole sequence, I might really be in business!

R.

Oh and BTW tricky... I noticed today that my natural start position with my feet is actually front foot flat and back leg slightly bent at the knee and with the back foot raised up a little and with my weight orientated a tiny bit forwards... is this desirable?... what particular power base style does this signify?... do many pro's do this?... just checking - R.

 

[tricky]

TBH, it was all a bit slow and I was over-concentrating and kind of watching myself too much.

Yeah, I'm not surprised by that. I'd just initially recommend just doing the very basic stuff first. Just . . .

1) Lower right arm over left arm.
2) Toss. Let the toss also facilitate your "hook" takeback.
3) Hit.

Don't worry too much about the windup or hitting the ball hard. Just do 30-50 times until you feel like the toss is light and the left and right arms feel coordinated.

ahhh, so this is what it feels like to serve bombs?!

Yeah, that's when you know you have the cartwheel shoulder over shoulder motion truly working for you. You'll feel like the racquet is making the ball explode off the racquet bed. You'll feel like there's a lot of mass behind the ball, and you're not arming the shot. The last thing is really important, because esp. with the abbreviated takeback, it's really easy to take the racqeut back to "slap" and "arm" on the ball.

the whole concept of opening up that chest, stretching out that upper right collarbone/back area etc, and just teeing off like Mike Tyson... well, I'm not sure why, but that just SO works for me...

Yeah, you're experiencing strong pronation (collarbone stretches upper pectoral/chest = loaded for strong pronation), and you might notice a snappy feel. It also looks kinda cool.

I noticed today that my natural start position with my feet is actually front foot flat and back leg slightly bent at the knee

A lot of people do something get that from using the "rock foward/back/forward" motion, but I found that unless you got lots of video feedback (or a coach), it can cause hitches in the motion. But it depends. For one thing, you want to bring the hips back by using your hip flexors, not by pushing your butt or lower back out. Essentially, you want the hip flexors to be contracted (like if you were doing a leg raise.) When the hip flexors are contracted, the hips go back. Then as you initiate toss and windup, the hip flexors end up stretching back out. And when the hip flexors are stretching, the hips naturally go forward.

The following may help. This is kinda micromanaging the whole service motion, but it may help give you a better sense of everything. This is how I implement "rock forward/back/forward."

Bouncing the Ball (forward)

Basically, the following what you'd do prior to bouncing the ball

1) Visualize that you're going to serve to ad court.
2) Visualize a coiling-style windup.
3a) Begin turning the right side of the belly button or the right oblique.
3b) Notice the weight on the balls of left foot. Do not allow the left leg to lock out.
4a) Begin bringing right hip forward.
4b) Do not allow the left leg to lock out.
5) Start taking the racquet back by lowering it a little. (Like tracing the right half of a upside-down U.)
6) Hold the position (keep in mind that the left leg should not be locked out at any time.)
7) Bounce the ball. It should look somewhat similar to footage that you've seen of people when they're bouncing the ball.

Bringing Hands Together (back)

8. Now, lower your right arm over the left arm. (It's like tracing the entire upside-down U in reverse.) In doing this, your torso and hips should move backwards automatically, and you'll end up with the hips automatically well backwards. Your front toe will be up and your back foot will be flat when serving to ad court. It may be also this way when you serve to deuce court.

Initiate toss and windup (forward)

9) Lift tossing arm. This should automatically initiate the windup and takeback.

10) Visualize yourself coiling and serve away.

 

[Ross K]

tricky,

Shall work on the above next week. Thanks for that...

Forr the moment though I'm just savouring yesterday's big advance in terms of creating oomph with that right hook!... (amazing isn't it how some ideas and imagery can just instantly work and strike a chord?)... and let's see if I can keep that going in terms of consistency.

R.

 

[Ross K]

tricky, everyone,

Coach Kyril two-step serve leson:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UttUYY5pM20&feature=related

Just wondered what ppl think of this (especially tricky) ^

Seems like very straight-forward and effective advice to me for anyone wanting to use this particular Sampras-like 2-step style. I'd be interested to see Coach Kyril or someone else do an abbreviated serve motion in a similarly simple and easy to follow drill/lesson. Anyhow, I don't know the coach and his work or what you TT ppl think of him, but I liked the vid and thought others might want to check it out.

R.

 

[Ross K]

tricky, everyone,

I was thinking about how Coach Kyril ^ seems to be saying it is more dynamic and adds power if you do the 2-step, as opposed to just using the Monfils-type pushing off with feet close together (platform~?) style... and then I thought I'd try and find a decent vid of Roddick's more streamlined 2-step and found this very good one...


http://www.truveo.com/andy-roddick-serve-in-slow-motion/id/2478938794

tricky, at present I'm doing more of a Monfils-like pushing off with the feet close together (where there's no real 2-step I can see) style but am wondering if I shouldn't try and emulate ARod's pared down 2-step or even go with Coach Kyril's more obvious Sampras-like 2-step, although I'm aware (and weary) of how this can alter the abbreviated racket up to shoulder motion itself (ie, the way Kyril has the frame drop all the way down to the ground doesn't appeal to me as I'm happy and comfortable with the frame just drawing back parallel to approx the waist, which is I think more like Monfils and even Rafa.)

... unless of course you disagree with the assertion that simply pushing off with the feet close together is robbing the server of added power and dynamic and momentum etc?

R.

BTW, I think I might try and find better footage of Monfils feet positioning at start of motion to verify I'm actually correct in my thinking.

 

[tricky]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UttUY...eature=related

Just wondered what ppl think of this (especially tricky)

Kyril's stuff is great; it's all based on mechanics and his progressions begin with forward momentum. For example, in his FH instruction, he talks about gluing your elbow to your body. By doing this, you essentially remove your takeback, which forces the person to use proper footwork and set up the unit turn by their legs and core.

The one drill where he has you lift the left leg and then the toss and hit <-- this is a perfect demonstration of forward momentum (or CoG.) Because, with your left leg up like that, if you don't begin to move forward as you toss, then the toss will land behind you.

One thing I really like about his work is that he teaches the forward-back-forward motion from a correct progression. The forward-back-forward motion isn't understood very well mechanically, and so even instructors end up with some hitches in their motions. However, Kyril nails it in his instruction clips.

I was thinking about how Coach Kyril ^ seems to be saying it is more dynamic and adds power if you do the 2-step, as opposed to just using the Monfils-type pushing off with feet close together (platform~?) style... and then I thought I'd try and find a decent vid of Roddick's more streamlined 2-step and found this very good one...

What Kyril is promoting is a lateral pinpoint-style serve (Safin, Goran, Nadal), which in base-speak is a pinpoint coil base. Even though the "feet up, feet down" stuff resembles Sampras, it's not all that much like it. My hunch is that you're not really comfortable or familiar with drive-style motions, so the coiling stuff is preferable for you.

although I'm aware (and weary) of how this can alter the abbreviated racket up to shoulder motion itself

If you want to work off Kyril's stuff and still have an abbreviated form, all you really need to do is tweak how you bring your hands together and how you execute the toss. Everything else you can follow Kyril's stuff. To reiterate . . .

1) When you bring your hands together, lower your right arm over the left.
2) When you initiate toss, don't let the tossing arm (or the upper arm of the tossing arm) drop. Just let it raise up and go.

If you keep the above things in mind, then you can work through his progressions, staring with the leg up thing, then the two feet together, and finally the lateral pinpoint style.

.. unless of course you disagree with the assertion that simply pushing off with the feet close together is robbing the server of added power and dynamic and momentum etc?

Yeah, this is part of an ongoing debate between platform and pinpoint technique. Basically, it's about emphasis. In pinpoint, you focus on pushing off the feet (because the feet are the last segment of the kinetic chain.) In platform, you can focus on the right arm (because the right arm is the last segment.) Most current serve pedagogy focuses on pushing off the feet, as with Kyril's clips. Therefore, his argument is framed from a specific model, and from that model, he is correct.

 

[sharpilistik]

Kyril's stuff is great; it's all based on mechanics and his progressions begin with forward momentum. For example, in his FH instruction, he talks about gluing your elbow to your body. By doing this, you essentially remove your takeback, which forces the person to use proper footwork and set up the unit turn by their legs and core.

The one drill where he has you lift the left leg and then the toss and hit <-- this is a perfect demonstration of forward momentum (or CoG.) Because, with your left leg up like that, if you don't begin to move forward as you toss, then the toss will land behind you.

One thing I really like about his work is that he teaches the forward-back-forward motion from a correct progression. The forward-back-forward motion isn't understood very well mechanically, and so even instructors end up with some hitches in their motions. However, Kyril nails it in his instruction clips.

What Kyril is promoting is a lateral pinpoint-style serve (Safin, Goran, Nadal), which in base-speak is a pinpoint coil base. Even though the "feet up, feet down" stuff resembles Sampras, it's not all that much like it. My hunch is that you're not really comfortable or familiar with drive-style motions, so the coiling stuff is preferable for you.

If you want to work off Kyril's stuff and still have an abbreviated form, all you really need to do is tweak how you bring your hands together and how you execute the toss. Everything else you can follow Kyril's stuff. To reiterate . . .

1) When you bring your hands together, lower your right arm over the left.
2) When you initiate toss, don't let the tossing arm (or the upper arm of the tossing arm) drop. Just let it raise up and go.

If you keep the above things in mind, then you can work through his progressions, staring with the leg up thing, then the two feet together, and finally the lateral pinpoint style.

Yeah, this is part of an ongoing debate between platform and pinpoint technique. Basically, it's about emphasis. In pinpoint, you focus on pushing off the feet (because the feet are the last segment of the kinetic chain.) In platform, you can focus on the right arm (because the right arm is the last segment.) Most current serve pedagogy focuses on pushing off the feet, as with Kyril's clips. Therefore, his argument is framed from a specific model, and from that model, he is correct.

very interesting analysis tricky.

I see you are a fan of kyril's serve teaching? well, i noticed he hits a "extreme" pinpoint stance with the right foot in front... i have seen some pinpoint stances, but his right foot seems to be quite far in front of his body, pretty much side by side with his left foot.


most pinpoint stances i have seen, the right foot stays somewhat behind the left foot when both toes come up together.

are there any advantages to any particular stance?

like could you combine a classical motion like james blake/pete sampras/federer motion with a pinpoint stance?

 

[Ross K]

Man, I really do pick them eh?!... look what I just came across...

Serve It Up: Gael Monfils
April 25, 2008 by Erica
Filed under Tennis
Leave a Comment

I was watching a rerun of Roger Federer’s match with Gael Monfils when I noticed something. (Yes, I am that person. I am a nerd, and apparently I don’t do too much to hide it!) Monfils’ serve: watch it. Well, now you can’t actually, because Federer beat him, but the man isn’t coming off the ATP tour so you’ll have a chance to watch him again.
It’s not the actual serve itself. The racket connects with the ball, the ball goes over the net (or it doesn’t), blah blah blah.
Check out his feet. I know, I know. Most women aren’t checking out a guy’s feet, usually we aim a little higher than that. But his feet. Monfils has a rather unorthodox approach; his feet are parallel to the baseline, spaced a couple inches apart. As he throws up the ball, he minces around until his feet are together. Not even Andy Roddick has his feet that close together when he’s unleashing his bombs.
It really gets interesting though when Monfils misses his first serve and has to fall back on his second serve. No acting like his shoelaces are tied together on that one. He uses a more standard approach with the back foot parallel to the baseline and the forward foot more at an angle.
Obviously it’s working for him. At least some of the time. And I’m certainly in no position to stand and pass judgement. After all, I’m the person that spent an hour working on her serve the other day and still kept spraying them wide.

Great! So my first preferred choice as a kind of template is actually, according to what I've been learning lately, not only something of a one-off - (hardly anyone actually just places their feet close together and just pushes off them without using more of a 2-step motion) - but he also has such little faith in this rare technique he bloody changes it up to a more traditional one on the 2nd serve?!

R.

 

[crosscourt]

This thread is amazingly helpful. In particular the emphasis on getting shoulder over shoulder. I find the hardest thing in achieving consistency in my serve is initiating the forward/upswing in a way that "fires" the shoulder over shoulder part of the process without my having to think about it too much. I want to concentrate on looking at the ball and thinking about the angle/approach of my racket head into the ball. Not about something as basic as making sure that my right shoulder is coming over my left.

If anyone is able to offer advice on how to kick-off the forward/upswing to make this happen as automatically as it can I will be really grateful.

cc

 

[tricky]

BTW... tricky.. i sent you some fh videos. check your mail

Yeah yeah . . rough weekend . . almost done.

I see you are a fan of kyril's serve teaching?

It's because he grounds the progressions in mechanics. So, if you work through them, you get the right "feels" for what should be going on in the serve. It's inherently difficult to convey this stuff even with video, but he does an excellent job at it.

i have seen some pinpoint stances, but his right foot seems to be quite far in front of his body, pretty much side by side with his left foot.

Yeah, he's demonstrating a lateral pinpoint serve (and to be honest, I prefer the lateral over the standard pinpoint style.) The power base for it is "coil pinpoint", and there's a specfic sequence of the kinetic chain for it. It's somewhat different (same stages, different order) than the document I gave you. In terms of power bases, there's 4 different types, and even with the abbreviated serve (where people's serves tend to look the same), you see examples for all four. There's big differences, and so what I emphasize is that if you go in between different styles, it'll become very confusing. I put together a chart where I kinda deconstructed 30 guys or so from TP. And if you understand the structure of the mechanics, then you reconstruct about 80% of the windups for those 30 players.

It's just theory though. In your case, you're struggling with the shoulder-over-shoulder motion, esp. when you're executing a platform serve. The front shoulder elevates too much, and so you open your torso and kinda "hop" so that you can carthwheel into the ball. If you go through Kyril's progressions, you'll at least get a "feel" for what shoulder-over-shoulder should be.

like could you combine a classical motion like james blake/pete sampras/federer motion with a pinpoint stance?

If you're interested in that, you'll want to look at Goran's serve. That's a lateral pinpoint serve (i.e. coil pinpoint), and he uses all the stages available for serving in the kinetic chain.

but he also has such little faith in this rare technique he bloody changes it up to a more traditional one on the 2nd serve?

It may mean that he uses less hip rotation in his 2nd serve. In a "step up" form, hip rotation leads to the feet shuffling a bit. It means he has less on his 2nd serve, but more room for error.

You know, I realized that I haven't been doing a good job explaining hip rotation and the "hips coming forward" thing. Basically do this . . . .

1) Assume a platform-ish stance.
2) Put your hands on a chair. Do this so that your torso (everything above the waist) does not move or turn.
3) Focus on your right hip flexor. (If you've ever done leg raises, that's the muscle which gets worked.)
4a) Twist the right hip flexor back. Locate a stretch in your right hip flexor.
4b) As you do this, keep your hands on the chair and do not let your torso turn.
5) Watch your right hip and check whether it moves forward or backwards.

The right hip should move forward. That's true hip rotation. However, when you watch yourself in a mirror, it doesn't look like the hips are rotating or turning. It looks like the hips are just moving forward.

 

[tricky]

crosscourt,

If anyone is able to offer advice on how to kick-off the forward/upswing to make this happen as automatically as it can I will be really grateful

Yeah, usually what I do is make sure the "shoulder over shoulder" alignment is there from the beginning.

1) When bringing hands together, take the right arm and put it over the left arm. Verify that your right shoulder is above the left. More specifically . . .

1a) If it's a classical loop takeback, then you want to bring the hands together by raising the right arm over the left arm. This is what most people instinctively do anyway.

1b) If it's an abbreviated takeback, then you want to lower the right arm over the left arm (think of a rainbow motion.) Pro video clips will see what that means.

2a) If it's a classical serve, then you want to initiate toss by first letting the left arm drop and then come back up.

2b) If it's an abbreviated serve, don't let the left arm drop when you initiate toss.

Now, going with what Kyril was demonstrating, you can try the above while having your left leg lifted off the ground. This will force you to use forward momentum as you toss and windup (otherwise, you'd fall backwards.)

You will get a strong feel for what shoulder-over-shoulder motion should feel like. Also, you'll get a better sense of what a "quiet" or "light" toss feels like, and the overall timing should feel more natural.

And then you can start building up the windup.

 

[crosscourt]

tricky

Thank you very much. Can I ask you something else?

When I serve I start with my feet at an angle to the baseline but my shoulders quite front on (facing the net). Then when I straighten up I naturally turn away from the net. So my left shoulder is travelling in an arc away from the court. When I toss I start the toss with my arm pointing towards the side of the court and the toss brings the ball back to the hitting position. I arch my back and my shoulders are perpendicular to the net as I start my forward motion upswing. This is somewhere between the Murray and Federer approach. In that approach, and thinking again about initiating the shoulder over shoulder part of the motion, should my weight be on my back foot, front foot, or spread evenly, do you think?

If you have view on this it would be greatly appreciated.

cc

 

[Ross K]

tricky,

Sorry to be so slow here but could you possibly rephrase or clarify this particular and obviously very important point:

If it's an abbreviated takeback, then you want to lower the right arm over the left arm (think of a rainbow motion.)

In execution I have found myself over-thinking this and getting a little tied up in, or even a bit frozen by what the heck I'm meant to be doing. I also found that it led me to kind of lean forwards with my upper body or stoop forward as if I'm closely studying the action of placing/crossing over the r/arm over the l/ arm (a move incidentally that straightens the front leg and flattens the front foot and raises up the back foot onto its ball), and I'm not sure if this is correct or desirable, though a few pros like Rafa do seem to sort of 'stoop forward' a bit at the start of the motion, no?

And another reason for my slight confusion is that when you say 'rainbow motion', in this context, I instantly think of Roddick's cocked, angled, fanned out, jutting out racket-hand forearm at the start of his serve. This 'supinated' (?) forearm... and I think I'm right in saying he also evens inverts his racket-hand/wrist too?... well, it's something I used to do a bit a few years back when I trying out the general ARod serve motion and it did seem to add something to the whole effect... however, I don't actually think that has anything to do with what you're talking about here, right?

So if you could put it in some kind of way that I might quickly get the picture (like with your absolutely priceless 'right hook as opposed to jab' remark about unloading into the ball from the shoulder), that would be fantastic!... I mean, what should the arms look/feel like?... arms straight out in front and wrists overlapping like I'm handcuffed?...

Thanks as ever

R.

 

[tricky]

CC,

Yeah, what you're going for is a classic coiling style. I assume you're not letting the feet move.

I arch my back and my shoulders are perpendicular to the net as I start my forward motion upswing.

It should be that you feel a stretch in the front of your body (i.e. around your core and ribcages, rather than the lower back and mid-back.) Superficially, a 3rd observer will see what happens to be a lean in the trunk. However, it's just the frontal part of the body stretching/extending out, and then the takeback of the arm kinda pulling on the upper torso. When that happens, you get what looks like a bend, but it's just an increased stretch.

If you're arcing your body using your lower back or mid-back (and A LOT of people do this), then you'll screw up both the windup and your shoulder-over-shoulder alignment. You'll know you do this if

A) your hips and groin kinda jut out to the side fence as you bend
B) you feel compression in your mid-back or lower back

Again, a lot of people do this because of what they see in video clips. The try to mimic the body positions without understand how they came to be, and it actually makes their service form regress rather than move forward.

 

[tricky]

Ross K

In execution I have found myself over-thinking this and getting a little tied up in, or even a bit frozen by what the heck I'm meant to be doing. I also found that it led me to kind of lean forwards with my upper body or stoop forward as if I'm closely studying the action of placing/crossing over the r/arm over the l/ arm

Hmm, could be a feel thing.

With your front leg off the ground (this is just for this exercise), try to lower your right arm over the left with your foot still off the ground.

With the foot still off the ground, verify that your right shoulder is above the left. See if this feel is different than what you were doing before. Let me know if it's any different for you.

And another reason for my slight confusion is that when you say 'rainbow motion', in this context, I instantly think of Roddick's cocked, angled, fanned out, jutting out racket-hand forearm at the start of his serve.

Yeah, don't sweat the "rainbow" thing. I was just looking for something convenient if the idea of lowering your right arm on top of the left arm was difficult to visualize. That's all.

hat should the arms look/feel like?... arms straight out in front and wrists overlapping like I'm handcuffed?...

It's a little like a police man pulling just your right hand forward to handcuff you. Not that I know what that feels like . . .

 

[crosscourt]

tricky

Thank you very much. Very interesting observations.

You are right -- I don't move my feet -- but then I don't have them very far apart to start with.

I wonder whether the answer to my question about what initiates the upswing is that having bent my kness they straighten and then sets the whole motion off.

cc

 

[tricky]

I wonder whether the answer to my question about what initiates the upswing is that having bent my kness they straighten and then sets the whole motion off.

This varies on technique. People who do pinpoint serves initiate the upswing by pushing off the ground. People with platform servers can do that or initiate with the right arm. That depends on how you order the kinetic chain, but it's only available to people who use platform style.

In terms of the upward characteristics of the swing itself, that more or less is automatic IF core mechanical principles (forward CoG and shoulder-over-shoulder motion) are followed. As a result, a server can work on swinging at the ball rather than on swinging upward or maintaining a torso square to the net as the swing comes out of the racquet drop.

 

[<3tennis!!!]

tricky, could you please analyse feds serve in deatail? especially weight transfer from front foot to back foot then to front again.....and also with feds platform it looks like sometimes when he jumps up into his serve he sometimes jumps his back foot up and into his front foot but sometimes his back foot just jumps and sorta just flails in the air away from his front foot. would appreciate it. cheers

 

[crosscourt]

This varies on technique. People who do pinpoint serves initiate the upswing by pushing off the ground. People with platform servers can do that or initiate with the right arm. That depends on how you order the kinetic chain, but it's only available to people who use platform style.

In terms of the upward characteristics of the swing itself, that more or less is automatic IF core mechanical principles (forward CoG and shoulder-over-shoulder motion) are followed. As a result, a server can work on swinging at the ball rather than on swinging upward or maintaining a torso square to the net as the swing comes out of the racquet drop.

This goes right to the heart of my dilemna. Do I initiate with my right arm or using my legs. I would rather use my legs. But if i do does that mean I should have my weight on my back leg?

On the CoG issue, is this crucial even in the Murray/Federer type serve? I find that because I am less upright it doesn't seem as easy to push my hip out as it would if I were in something more like the DelPotro/Kuerten/Gonzalez (or even the Phillipoussis) serve position.

Any further thoughts greatly appreciated.

cc

 

[tricky]

<3tennis,

could you please analyse feds serve in deatail?

Coil platform style with emphasis on heavy spin. His grip is between continental and Eastern BH, so his twist is more accentuated than most folk.

when he jumps up into his serve he sometimes jumps his back foot up and into his front foot but sometimes his back foot just jumps and sorta just flails in the air away from his front foot.

I think the former is generally true when he serves to ad court, and the latter when he serves to deuce court. In a coiling style, angular momentum has a larger role than linear momentum . And, so, to the deuce court (where the effects of angular momentum is more pronounced), you'll see more lateral separation between the left and right legs upon landing into court. It's mostly after effects of the service motion than anything he's consciously doing.

Practicing the Coil Platform Power Base
1) Focus on your belly button. Start twisting your torso away from the court with the belly button.
2) Focus on your hip . Start twisting hip flexors to bring your hip toward the court.
3) As you windup, visualize that you're winding like a top into the ball.
4) Notice as you windup, notice how the weight falls onto the balls of your front foot and how your knees bend.

Note: Above is the basis for a coiling platform power base, and it's important that you get the feel of the forward center of gravity down. Initially, you may want to practice steps 1 and 2 by itself while keeping your front leg off the ground, just so that you can get the feel down.

Now, the Forward-Backward-Forward Motion goes something like this -->

Coil Platform (plus Heavy Spin and Pronation) -- Serving to Ad Court

Forward (the bouncing of the ball)
1) Focus on belly button. Turns right torso away from the court with belly button.
2) Focus on right hip. Twist right hip flexor to bring your right hip toward the court
3) Focus on lowest part of right rib cage. Let it stretch or twist as you windup. This facilitates spin.
4) Focus on right collarbone. Let it stretch as you windup. This facilitates pronation.
5) Now take racquet back. Federer prefers a grip between continental and eastern BH. You may want to stick with whatever grip suits you best.
6) Hold position and bounce ball. (Notice how your back foot comes up, while your front foot is flat.)

Backward (bring hands together)
7a) Now, take your right arm (which was well behind your body from being taken back) and raise it over your left.
7b) You'll notice that when you do this, the windup automatically goes in reverse. This is a natural response.
8) You'll notice that the backfoot is flat. The front foot may be toe-up, though that varies. (Generally less when you serve to ad-court.) It's not something you need to control. Forcing the toe-up and toe-down positions are not really a good idea.

Note: When Federer brings his hands together, the forearms are almost parallel with each other and perpendicular with the ground. I'll explain some other time, but it causes the trophy position to set up around the time of his release of the ball. In other words, trophy and toss are synced almost perfectly. It's mostly aesthetic, but for some people, the timing is easier this wayu. There's also an ancillary effect with forearm supination that gives him some better access to flat angles and spin variation. But that's outside the scope of this discussion.

Forward (initiate toss and windup)
9a) Separate hand from racquet by letting your left arm drop.. The windup should automatically start as well as the lineup.
9b) You'll notice that both your feet will go flat. Again, don't force this.
10a) Toss and takeback.
10b) Visualize winding and unwinding into the ball.
10c) Swing away.

Note: When Federer separate his hands, it looks like he's rocking backwards. However you actually feel your momentum coming forward through the whole motion. This is what confuses people about Fderer's coiling windup, and so they associate the torso rotation as a rocking motion. Once that is done, it can screw up the shoulder-over-shoulder alignment.

At the beginning of the windup, usually the hip is well behind the square line of the body. In a coiling windup, the torso turns a lot quicker than the hip comes forward. As a result, with the hip behind the center of the body and the torso twisting, it initially looks like it looks like the trunk rocks backwards until the hip crosses the square of the body. . However, in actual mechanics, the CoG is in front of you and the body is actually moving forward as soon as the arms separate. And this is sustained as you toss, windup, and take racquet back.

 

[<3tennis!!!]

cheers trickster, i will try post a video when i get a friken camera, i seem to be serving well atm, and yeah i agree, once the racquet takeback goes past your hips your weight from then on should be moving forward. i think i had my weight transfer way way wrong in the past which was causing me sort of falling backwards and i felt i didnt have much control of the serve, but i seem to be sorting this out. thanks for your help.

 

[tricky]

cc,

On the CoG issue, is this crucial even in the Murray/Federer type serve?

Crucial in all serves. It's the foundation. Solve that part and it solves most people's issues with the toss, timing, and keeping sideway with the torso.

The hips are the most obvious part (it's what people see on video), but all stages in the windup are dependent on it. It's what loads the kinetic chain and mediates the shoulder-over-shoulder motion.

easy to push my hip out

Yeah, that's the thing. The hips aren't pushed out in the service motion. To push out the hips implies that your trunk falls backwards, as if you were bumping somebody next to you. This causes your center of gravity to no longer be in front of you, but behind you. You'll notice that when you push your hips out, your left hip and your front shoulder elevates a lot. When this happen, the shoulder-over-shoulder alignment is also disrupted and at that point, you no longer have a windup set up for a cartwheel motion. That in turn forces a person to guide their trophy position and arm their motion, and forces them to open the torso too early or "hop" into a racquet drop.

So, yeah, loads of service issues all happen.

Do I initiate with my right arm or using my legs.

It's dependent on sequence. Think of throwing a football.

1) If you take the football back and then stride, then you initiate the forward throw through your legs. The longer the stride, the bigger the throwing motion. Such is what's actually done in a pinpoint serve.

2) If, however, you first stride and then take the football back, you initiate with the right arm. The bigger the throwing motion, the longer you'll stride. Not only that, but your feet will automatically stay on the ground until you release the forward motion. Such is what's usually done in a platform serve. But you have the option of going either example 1 or 2 with platform. It's all sequence.

But if i do does that mean I should have my weight on my back leg?

It's not so much that, but that you should notice your weight going forward as you toss and windup. The weight isn't straight on the back or front legs.

 

[Ross K]

tricky,

It's a little like a police man pulling just your right hand forward to handcuff you. Not that I know what that feels like

Right. I getcha! Finito...


Now... following the last week or so of efforts, all your input, getting into Coach Kyril's theories, and how I simply felt the need to do a little something different than just bob up and down with my feet close together (a la Monfils!), I think this week I might be trying for more of the pinpoint 2-step. And out of everyone I can think of, Nadal's present serve comes closest to what I have in mind... something akin to this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ijLU5PB44tc&feature=related

or this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x2Ap_7UPo7Q&NR=1

or maybe best of the lot:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ma9p...D591E2495&playnext=1&playnext_from=PL&index=7

Anyway, before proceeding, I just wondered if you thought it was advisable or if perhaps I should stay with the Monfils 'bob' (although he seems to be the only pro out there who just puts his feet together, goes down a bit, then bobs up?!) And if it is cool, maybe just a handful of tips to help 'Nadal-ize' my motion... (Hey?! Isn't this thread entitled The Monfils serve?!)... Anyhow, whatever you might care to say re going from a Monfils to a Nadal (if you will) is really appreciated, and not least because of all the effort to put these posts.

R.