Growing support for speeding up surfaces

[Anti-Fedal]

http://www.tennis.com/pro-game/2013/11/growing-support-speeding-surfaces/49664/#.UnUL8Y2TtxU

Australian Open tournament director Craig Tiley and Shanghai tournament director Charles Smith come out in favor of faster surfaces. Tiley told The New York Times that in general courts have become too slow.

“I think it has gone too much one way and the tournaments need to correct it,” he said. “But I think it’s dangerous when you correct it and go too far too quickly.”

Smith, who is also on the ATP board of directors, said that his tournament quickened its courts this year and that fans responded favorably.

“We set it up faster than we’ve ever done before,” he told the newspaper. “We were medium fast last year and fast this year, and I think it was a negative historically for people if you had a fast court. And this is part of the narrative people are coming to grips with. Even with fast courts, you still get 20-shot rallies and beautiful points. These guys are just such good defenders. Novak [Djokovic] is as fast as any guy I’ve seen, side to side, so part of this is trying to keep up with the players and their evolution.”

Coach and analyst Brad Gilbert added that returning to the days of serve-and-volley should not be encouraged.

“I’m not living in the stone age, wanting to see guys go back to serve-and-volley and play one-shot tennis. Boring,” Gilbert said. “We’re seeing guys now playing well into their 30s, and I think it’s because of the slower courts. And because guys are playing more rallies and not sprinting forward all the time. I tell every kid who asks me, ‘Don’t do it. You’ll ruin your body.' "

 

[spinovic]

Interesting comments from Gilbert, specifically implying that S&V is harder on your body. I thought the sentiment was the opposite.

 

[vive le beau jeu !]

http://www.**************.org/Editor/Img/toni-nadal-img7413_668.jpg

"it's not fair."

 

[Raz11]

Hopefully but unlikely for awhile

 

[Mr.Lob]

Interesting comments from Gilbert, specifically implying that S&V is harder on your body. I thought the sentiment was the opposite.

Thought the same thing . What's harder on the body, a brief five second intense burst to the net, or 15-30 seconds of grinding from the baseline.

 

[ScottleeSV]

Gilbert's talking out of his arse on that one.

I like slow courts but there needs to be at least one fast court slam so players are tested. Variety in the calendar is good.

 

[Chico]

http://www.tennis.com/pro-game/2013/11/growing-support-speeding-surfaces/49664/#.UnUL8Y2TtxU

Australian Open tournament director Craig Tiley and Shanghai tournament director Charles Smith come out in favor of faster surfaces. Tiley told The New York Times that in general courts have become too slow.

“I think it has gone too much one way and the tournaments need to correct it,” he said. “But I think it’s dangerous when you correct it and go too far too quickly.”

Smith, who is also on the ATP board of directors, said that his tournament quickened its courts this year and that fans responded favorably.

“We set it up faster than we’ve ever done before,” he told the newspaper. “We were medium fast last year and fast this year, and I think it was a negative historically for people if you had a fast court. And this is part of the narrative people are coming to grips with. Even with fast courts, you still get 20-shot rallies and beautiful points. These guys are just such good defenders. Novak [Djokovic] is as fast as any guy I’ve seen, side to side, so part of this is trying to keep up with the players and their evolution.”

Coach and analyst Brad Gilbert added that returning to the days of serve-and-volley should not be encouraged.

“I’m not living in the stone age, wanting to see guys go back to serve-and-volley and play one-shot tennis. Boring,” Gilbert said. “We’re seeing guys now playing well into their 30s, and I think it’s because of the slower courts. And because guys are playing more rallies and not sprinting forward all the time. I tell every kid who asks me, ‘Don’t do it. You’ll ruin your body.' "

They want to make it harder for Djokovic to win AO and Shanghai many times in a row. Why don't they speed up Wimbledon and RG instead, why mess with good surfaces that favor Djokovic, like AO and Shanghai. Another injustice among many others against Djokovic.

They will fail since Djokovic is just as good on fast HC as he is on slow.

 

[TMF]

They want to make it harder for Djokovic to win AO and Shanghai many times in a row. Why don't they speed up Wimbledon and RG instead, why mess with good surfaces that favor Djokovic, like AO and Shanghai. Another injustice among many others against Djokovic.

They will fail since Djokovic is just as good on fast HC as he is on slow.

Why do you worry when Nole still has the same chance at beating Nadal on fast or slow AO?

Speeding up AO will encourage other tournaments to speed up too, which players and fans are starving to see the change.

 

[tennis_pro]

I laughed at the notion of the AO being called "medium fast" in 2012 and "fast" in 2013.

2012 was like a clay court and 2013 was "marginally faster" in Fed's words.

 

[TMF]

They should have kept Rebound Ace in the first place.

Don't fix it if it isn't broken.

 

[West Coast Ace]

Hard to take this story seriously; Charles Smith was a principle in bringing tennis to Shanghai (first TMC then M1000) and is an executive with Juss Events who own the tournament and handle the financial/marketing side. Michael Luevano is the tournament director and would be involved in the actual play - and selecting the surface:

http://en.shanghairolexmasters.com/event/index.aspx

Second, Shanghai is hardly slow - especially the stadium court. And ND has won on a variety of surfaces - he's hardly a slow court only champion. He's won 6 indoor titles (could have 2 more in a few weeks).

But on the topic, I think people are seeing that the pendulum has gone way too far to the side of long rallies, followed by more long rallies. Speeding things up a little (but not going back to the 90's as Gilbert points out isn't going to happen) could bring more variety. So could going with slightly lighter balls, which would also help with the wrist/elbow/shoulder injuries.

 

[llodra_fan]

I laughed at the notion of the AO being called "medium fast" in 2012 and "fast" in 2013.

2012 was like a clay court and 2013 was "marginally faster" in Fed's words.

I think that was the director of Shanghai and he was referring to the Shanghai courts. In that case, it is true.

 

[Who Am I?]

They will have to eventually speed up the courts at some point.

 

[Chico]

Why do you worry when Nole still has the same chance at beating Nadal on fast or slow AO?

Speeding up AO will encourage other tournaments to speed up too, which players and fans are starving to see the change.

Let them start with other tournaments. Leave AO alone please.

 

[Crose]

Let them start with other tournaments. Leave AO alone please.

Of course you'd advocate that, it's the only slam Novak has been able to win outside of his SINGLE dominant season.

 

[FreeBird]

They need to speed up courts but not upto the speed of 90s. It will become a servefest. :neutral:

 

[PONG]

Its a shame to see tournaments such as Basel and Paris playing slower and slower every year and the ball bounce getting higher and higher. In 2007 they removed the carpet and slowed it down dramatically (what a surprise, Nadal makes the final).
2010 Paris was a nice experience, a genuine fast court and exciting tournament. 2011 they slowed it down again and now I was listening to the tournament director who says they slowed it down so its identical speed and bounce to the WTF.

 

[Incognito]

They need to speed up courts but not upto the speed of 90s. It will become a servefest. :neutral:

I want faster courts. Imagine Serena and Juan Martin's groundies on those :shock:


faster courst will also lengthen people's career IMO. Nadal, Murray and Djokovic for example wont have to run as much..

 

[timnz]

I laughed at the notion of the AO being called "medium fast" in 2012 and "fast" in 2013.

2012 was like a clay court and 2013 was "marginally faster" in Fed's words.

Yes it is completely laughable. It basically is like a clay court without the sliding.

 

[furryballs]

Yes it is completely laughable. It basically is like a clay court without the sliding.

smith was talking about shanghai not AO

 

[Omega_7000]

I want faster courts. Imagine Serena and Juan Martin's groundies on those :shock:


faster courst will also lengthen people's career IMO. Nadal, Murray and Djokovic for example wont have to run as much..

Nadal and Murray won't have to run much coz they won't be winning much either.

 

[Matthew Bance]

should speed up Wimbledon that's it

 

[Who Am I?]

Nadal and Murray won't have to run much coz they won't be winning much either.

Murray has a big 1st serve, so he can still be a threat on faster courts. Nadal, obviously no.

 

[furryballs]

is this a hint that the AO will be sped up in 2014 then?Smith is on the ATP board of directors so hopefully this is a good sign.

 

[jussumman]

Well this is refreshing news. It's amazing how much of tennis is dictated by the surfaces and how the tournament directors can to a large degree decide who will win their next event and the game play. Both 1 shot serve fests and 50plus baseline bash rallies are enemies of tennis and need to be corrected (from this fan's perspective at least.)

 

[cork_screw]

I would be on board for this. I'm not too much into the whole long grinds. I mean, they have their place in good matches, but I think when you add pace to a surface, it changes a lot of the dynamics of rhythm and movement and adds so many more dimensions. I think there's a lot of people here who are sick of watcing Nadal/Djokovic matches where rallies go on forever. I personally enjoy that to a degree, but I don't enjoy how it's kind of taken over as a linear dimensional aspect that maybe drags tennis down a bit. When you add speed it changes how players choose to play and I think overall it makes it more entertaining. It also rewards players for taking more risks, which is nice to see. I guess that's why I enjoy women's tennis back in the 90's and 80's. It was so multi faceted, today's game is just boring baseline flat hitting. Seems like the trend of late has been to slow down courts, I would love to see some fast courts and see how players adapt to it. Maybe you would get some different names in the later rounds as well.

 

[Goosehead]

Lets steal all the sand in Australia so when they do the courts for 2014 they won't contain any sand/gravel and it'll help to speed up the surface. :twisted:

 

[Rock Strongo]

Lets steal all the sand in Australia so when they do the courts for 2014 they won't contain any sand/gravel and it'll help to speed up the surface. :twisted:

Do that, and you'll have several 15 foot long spiders chasing after you.

Believe me, I've tried...

 

[shakes1975]

They need to speed up courts but not upto the speed of 90s. It will become a servefest. :neutral:

Which year were you born ?

Please, outside of Wim, the 90's were not serve fests, not at all. People use just one tournament to malign an entire era.

I guess you missed all those Agassi-Sampras-Courier-Chang matches at the AO and USO, which featured some great rallies AND S/V play ? How about their matches at IW and Miami, LA, Cincinnati ?

Not to mention Kafelnikov, Korda, Pioline, Rafter, Edberg, Becker, Muster, Bruguera, Stich etc.

 

[TMF]

Which year were you born ?

Please, outside of Wim, the 90's were not serve fests, not at all. People use just one tournament to malign an entire era.

I guess you missed all those Agassi-Sampras-Courier-Chang matches at the AO and USO, which featured some great rallies AND S/V play ? How about their matches at IW and Miami, LA, Cincinnati ?

Not to mention Kafelnikov, Korda, Pioline, Rafter, Edberg, Becker, Muster, Bruguera, Stich etc.

Today's players have bigger and more deadly serve than in the 90s. Put Ivo and Isner in the 90s court, there WILL be a servefest.

 

[PONG]

Today's players have bigger and more deadly serve than in the 90s. Put Ivo and Isner in the 90s court, there WILL be a servefest.

Wrong the 90s had a much larger percentage of power servers than today. You might have 4 or 5 all-serve guys today in the 90s there were dozens

 

[shakes1975]

Today's players have bigger and more deadly serve than in the 90s. Put Ivo and Isner in the 90s court, there WILL be a servefest.

Nope. Did you know that Djok averaged 112 mph on his 1st serve in the USO F ? Nadal averaged even less. Did you know that Becker averaged 116 mph on his 1st serve in 1989 Wim ? And that was with the measuring technology of that period which is less accurate than this eras and gave very conservative reading because it could only measure the speed after the ball had travelled close to the net.

And this is not counting guys like Sampras, Ivanisevic, Krajicek, Arthurs, Scud, Rosset, Rusedski, all of whom served bigger/faster than Becker.

Nope, if anything, those guys served harder than all players today, with probably the exception of Isner and Karlovic who have probably the same speed but greater bounce due to their height.

 

[winstonlim8]

I just want to see the end of 6-hour endlessly dingdonpingpong matches whenever I switch to the tennis channel....please....please...please God....I swear I'll never tell a lie or scold my dog again.

Tennis used to be a contest where you could choose to play s-v or baseline or all-court and the man who did his own thing best would win, regardless of what his style happened to be. It was like a gladiatorial or fencing match where the style was less important than the man and the heart behind the racquet and how well he was able to produce his best shots.

Nowadays....all I can say is that watching tennis on tv is somewhat like dingdongpingpongdingdongpingpongdingdongpingpongdingdongpingpong! I think this should qualify as mental cruelty!

All that talk about slowing down the courts to take away the big server's advantage...and then what do they do? Make racquets that allow for even bigger serves. DUH!!!

So please God, save tennis from the dingdongpingpong...make enough people switch off their tv sets that the big sponsors notice the low ratings and start agitating for less dingdongpingpong. That's the only way to get anything to change in sports nowadays. TAKE AWAY THE MONEY IF THEY MAKE IT BORING!!!

 

[TMF]

Wrong the 90s had a much larger percentage of power servers than today. You might have 4 or 5 all-serve guys today in the 90s there were dozens

Nope. Did you know that Djok averaged 112 mph on his 1st serve in the USO F ? Nadal averaged even less. Did you know that Becker averaged 116 mph on his 1st serve in 1989 Wim ? And that was with the measuring technology of that period which is less accurate than this eras and gave very conservative reading because it could only measure the speed after the ball had travelled close to the net.

And this is not counting guys like Sampras, Ivanisevic, Krajicek, Arthurs, Scud, Rosset, Rusedski, all of whom served bigger/faster than Becker.

Nope, if anything, those guys served harder than all players today, with probably the exception of Isner and Karlovic who have probably the same speed but greater bounce due to their height.

Karlovic
Isner
Roddick
Raonic
Federer
Safin
Tsonga
Berdych
Anderson
Muller
Del Potro
Groth
Bozoljac

Don't forget the slower condition today are tougher to ace than in the 90s. And no, the players today have add more power and pace, despite having to play with a heavier ball.

 

[Rob_C]

Put Ivo and Isner in the 90s court, there WILL be a servefest.

It's a servefest when Isner or Karlovic play now anyway.

 

[degrease]

I would like to see wimbledon speed up so that at one slam it wont necessarily be the same faces in the same order

 

[TMF]

It's a servefest when Isner or Karlovic play now anyway.

There serve is very difficult to return once the ball hit it's target. I just don't see how any players can break their service game had they played in the 90s.

 

[Rob_C]

There serve is very difficult to return once the ball hit it's target. I just don't see how any players can break their service game had they played in the 90s.

Same way they broke Ivanisevic, Krajicek, or Sampras back in the day.

 

[degrease]

Same way they broke Ivanisevic, Krajicek, or Sampras back in the day.

Perfectly answered

 

[Overdrive]

Why do people want to speed up the surface? Is watching 2-4 stroke rallies more interesting than 10+ stroke rallies?

Why not make the surfaces moderate in speed with a low bounce? It should level out the playing field...

 

[Netspirit]

It is possible, and quite cheap, to bring the fast courts back and avoid serve-fests.

Just abolish the second serve rule, and all serves will have to become more conservative (a-la the second).

 

[Roddick85]

Gilbert's comments seem to lack any common sense. You will tell me that the shock on the joints is worst on a 5 second S&V vs a 30-35 sec never ending rally with players running left and right? Sorry dude, not buying this.

I don't think all courts have to be speed up. What people hate is the surface homogenization that has happened in the last 10 years. We need the variety back. Clay should be slow, grass should be fast, the australian open should be slow-medium and the US Open should be fast again.

 

[Lukhas]

It is possible, and quite cheap, to bring the fast courts back and avoid serve-fests.

Just abolish the second serve rule, and all serves will have to become more conservative (a-la the second).

Funny enough, if you consider win % behind both serves, a dude like Roddick would have more success if he was forced to hit nothing but first serves, while a guy like Federer would have more success hitting nothing but second serves.

It would become even worse. Pinpoint servers would rule the court even more because of their better serves.

 

[rufus_smith]

I agree that the comments attributed to Gilbert are irrational. Obviously longer points put more stress on the body than short points. Defense is so easy now since the ball is bouncing up high and the racquet/string technology is so improved. Dropshots and approach shots bounce too high to be used much. Take some grit out of the court surface and maybe take a little air pressure out of the balls and maybe we'll see a complete style of tennis again. One can dream.

 

[Kalin]

Brad Gilbert should know better than anyone that dink'em and slice'em tennis is best for body and spirit....

 

[Lukhas]

Well I feel Gilbert could've a point, but not for the reasons he mentioned. I'm not gonna make friends with that one, but...

I noticed that in very short distance running, sprinters usually have a rather short career because the fast muscles they need tend to disappear very quickly. However, in very long distance running, you still can be competitive for much, much longer. Special mention to cycling where you still can be competitive after your 30's. I think that's what he wanted to say. In an endurance run, your age doesn't matter as much as on very fast and aggressive tennis where your muscle strength is much more important. You have to wait for much longer to pull the trigger, the rallies are slower and more endurance based than based on your hitting power. A complete player like Haas can afford to spend longer time on court because of excellent body conditioning, patience and all-court playing, knowing how and when to shorten the rally and don't try to force his luck if it isn't the right moment to do so.

On the other hand, to penetrate a slower court, you need to hit much harder, and it isn't always the case on slower courts. That's how Llodra (who retire next year) feasts on end-year events, or that Hewitt, who lacks firepower, prefers fast surfaces (although the USO wasn't that fast to begin with). Or even Federer compared to Haas, the Swiss being more willing to impose his will to his opponent.

So it's a bit of a mixed feeling. Longer rallies wear the body, but they're detrimental to big hitters because it doesn't allow them to shorten the point by firing power alone. Firing power that really depends more on your age than endurance. However shot makers prefer faster courts because they can end the point when they want to, or at least force it.
I think it's more dependent of a play-style than "age".

[/2cents]

 

[shakes1975]

Karlovic
Isner

Speed is not the clincher here, only bounce due to their height.

Roddick
Raonic

How fast would their serves be with the radar guns of the 90's. You have to cut off atleast 5-10 mph from their average serve speeds and then see if they are really faster than Ivanisevic, Rosset, Scud, Arthurs, Rusedski, Krajicek.

Federer
Safin
Tsonga
Berdych
Anderson
Muller
Del Potro
Groth
Bozoljac

None of these guys served faster than the top servers of the 90's. Fed's top speed is less than Sampras' was, and Sampras was not the fastest server of the 90's.

Don't forget the slower condition today are tougher to ace than in the 90s. And no, the players today have add more power and pace, despite having to play with a heavier ball.

I'm not counting aces at all. I'm looking at the average serve speed. See my example of Nadal and Djok.

And why do you think the players today have more power by default? Are they all bigger than Becker, Ivanisevic, Krajicek, Scud, Arthurs, Rosset ? Are they evolved on Mars ? Or do they come from a different human genetic background ? Or is it because they are just born later and therefor MUST be better ?

 

[Nostradamus]

http://www.**************.org/Editor/Img/toni-nadal-img7413_668.jpg

"it's not fair."

Agree with him. RETURN to serve and volley, will NOT happen. Only thing that will happen is more and more Bomb serve ACE or service winner. Which is Boring as heck

 

[shakes1975]

Agree with him. RETURN to serve and volley, will NOT happen. Only thing that will happen is more and more Bomb serve ACE or service winner. Which is Boring as heck

Disagree. Except for a couple like Isner and Raonic, none of the others serve anywhere near Ivanisevic and co.

Also, the returning has improved, right ? That also means the server will not have as much an advantage as in the 90's.

 

[Bobby Jr]

I'm not counting aces at all. I'm looking at the average serve speed. See my example of Nadal and Djok.

Which, in itself, is still not a completely valid comparison because serves generally have more spin on them than they did in previous eras because of the strings they have now. And the extra spin they get offers greater benefits than 15 mph of extra pace would most of the time.

You have to be careful looking at speeds as a measure of how good serves were because it's only moderately correlated with serving prowess. As you said, even Sampras didn't have the fastest serve yet his was, by far, the most effective serve when averaged out across his prime (discounting the odd anomaly from a non-peer player). The same can be probably said for Federer during his prime.