Help with my serve please

[yemenmocha]

Any constructive criticism or general tips are welcome. I'm returning to the game from 13yrs or so absence and I don't have the power I used to have. Notice the 3rd clip is slow motion.

http://s130.photobucket.com/albums/p250/mytennis/?action=view&current=Serve4.flv


http://s130.photobucket.com/albums/p250/mytennis/?action=view&current=Serve3.flv

http://s130.photobucket.com/albums/p250/mytennis/?action=view&current=Serve2slow-1.flv

(slow motion)


http://s130.photobucket.com/albums/p250/mytennis/?action=view&current=Serve2veryslow.flv

(very slow motion)

 

[AJK1]

13 yrs absence, ouch! Why is that?
Also, your serving is better than 90% of the people on these boards, so don't expect much help. Nice serving by the way.

 

[yemenmocha]

I feel so old!

At 18 I was getting burned out and wasn't good enough for a college team somewhere that I actually wanted to attend college. Early 30's now with some reasonable free time to pursue hobbies again (finally).

Thank you for the compliment.

 

[Solat]

very nice action, i wouldn't change a thing

just work on your spin and placement if power is an issue

good luck with the comeback

 

[AJK1]

Yemenmocha, i meant to ask you, after 13 yrs out of the game, what made you get a Babolat APD? Did you demo many racquets?

 

[yemenmocha]

Yes, 6 or 7 of them. I came from a ProStaff 5.5 aire shell which was, to me, very headlight and maneuverable at net. I wanted the same setup. The "regular" range of Wilsons didn't do it for me (the 4.0, 5.0, etc.) nor did the 6.1 nCode.

It came down to the Babolat and the Head FLexpoint radical whatever, the orange one. I somewhat regret my decision now but hindsight is always 20/20.

 

[yemenmocha]

anyone else?

no constructive criticism?

 

[bribeiro]

I'm not really in the position to comment on anyone's serve, but it seems to me you're missing a bit of shoulder rotation, seems like your left shoulder doesn't move as much as it should.

 

[Thiseas]

Your service motion begins very smoothly. Everything seems perfect all the way to the end of the knee bend.

This is text book material, especially the dissociation between the hips and the shoulders. They are forming an angle which helps a lot to explosively rotate the upper body and creates lots of angular speed.

I personally don’t like the pinpoint stance, especially the way that you are using it (right foot comes at the same level with the left) this causes problems with the balance and doesn’t help at all to transfer the weight into the shot.

However your serve fails to fulfil the promises. Your shoulders at impact didn’t fully uncoil (left shoulder is still in front of the right) which means that the kinetic chain is broken, and all you end up with, is an arm shot despite of the appearances (aesthetically it still remains a beautiful motion).
I bet that you could serve standing on your right leg and still serve at 90% of your usual speed without any participation of the lower body. Try it, just for fun.

What I propose is this: toss the ball further into the court and a bit more to the left. That will permit the right shoulder to “get” into the shot. This way you can unload all this energy that your excellent windup has stored and will help you to hit a much heavier ball. Try this and let me know how it went.

 

[yemenmocha]

links don't seem to work. would you mind reposting? thank you

 

[raiden031]

Its funny how the title is expressing that he needs help, yet his serve is nearly flawless on the video. Here's a tip, go sign up for some tournaments!

 

[Bolt]

Your shoulders at impact didn’t fully uncoil.

I thought this is what I was seeing too.

 

[NbladeTopspin]

nice serve except u go a little palm up


NbladeTospin

 

[yemenmocha]

what do you mean palm up? when? where? sorry not familiar with phrase.

 

[Duzza]

The isn't a lot wrong with that serve. Enjoy

 

[BlackSheep]

Hahaha the slow motion audio made me laugh...sounds like your growling or something.

Oh yea your serve is nice too!

 

[yemenmocha]

Yes it's amusing to hear the audio in slow motion as well. The ball bounce before the serve is funny too.

Come on guys, thanks for the positive comments, but I need to get more ooomph on this thing.


THISEAS:
Thanks for your comments. I think you're on to something here with a toss more to the left. And yes, it is an "arm" serve as you mention. I'm having shoulder problems and something just doesn't feel right with the serve. Somewhere somehow after many years away I lost my serve and it only feels like 70% of my old stroke, but maybe it's just the age speaking. Anyway, your comments are especially appreciated.

 

[fuzz nation]

That motion looks really reliable. Sorry to hear about the shoulder issue--you may want to try something when you practice. See if you can comfortably get your service motion a little farther along before you toss the ball. Your swing doesn't look rushed, but it may be just barely on time and when I do that, my shoulder is usually what pays for trying to stay caught up. If you can take a comfortable practice swing with no perceivable stress on your shoulder, make your toss work in time with that swing.

If your abs and back are healthy and reasonably flexible, just a little more back bend can also help that shoulder release through the hitting zone. You turn away to your right as you set to swing, but the turn through the serve is just a little restricted. Not suggesting a limbo contest--I overdid it in the fall and had a nasty pull in my left tummy.

Cool picture show, looks pretty solid, good luck in '07!

 

[Thiseas]

In my previous message I advised you to toss the ball further into the court and to your left .After watching your video again, it seems to me that you are tossing the ball out in front (you are landing well in to the court) but somehow you are managing to keep the contact point directly above or even behind the head which means that instead of putting the weight behind the ball, you are actually “dragging” the ball into the court almost like a late contact with the forehand.
The angle you filmed however is not the best at determining that. Have a friend film you from the side. I’m convinced that you will find out that I’m right.

As for the shoulder problems it is not a mystery. I told you that the energy you store in you windup is somehow not passing through all the way to the racket face, and it’s obvious that the right shoulder is the broken link. When a kinetic chain is broken, the joint where that happens is taking a lot of stress (all that energy is not disappearing, someone is absorbing it, a muscle, a tendon, a cartilage).

I would like to put a photo into the post in order to show you what I mean but I don’t now how to do that. When I try to insert an image, it asks for a link, but the photo I want to show you is in my computer. Anyone knows how to do that?

 

[yemenmocha]

put it up on photobucket.com and it will list an URL beneath your picture once you upload it. they are very easy to use and don't spam your email that you use to register.

Someone has mentioned the last problem you identified. It's as if I somehow get underneath and ahead of the ball and my shoulder lags behind and then makes contact when my shoulder is in an awkward position.

I'll get the side angle in a couple days here when I'm able to hit with a partner.

 

[Thiseas]

http://s134.photobucket.com/albums/q87/teosoph/?action=view&current=serve.flv

http://s134.photobucket.com/albums/q87/teosoph/?action=view&current=serve_slow.flv

see what I mean?

 

[JCo872]

There are three things you should work on. First, get your toss further to the left. Second, extend your tossing arm fully so that your arm is pointed straight up to the sky. And the third (and most important one), is you have to stop snapping your wrist through the ball and get proper pronation. You can see what I mean here:

http://www.hi-techtennis.com/serve/student/wrist.php

 

[bribeiro]

jco, while you're at it, analyze this serve please

http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v98/akj27/?action=view&current=MVI_0034-1.flv


Just the form, I know that's not a tennis court but it counts lol.

 

[yemenmocha]

Thanks for the helpful advice.

I went back and looked at those clips and my arm does have the same pronated position as the other clip, but of course it is just a tad after contact. Is the pro's clip just a moment or so after contact? Also, I'm hitting a serve with a lot of spin but when I go for the flatty then it doesn't quite look the same (racquet "brushing" ball from 8 to 2 on this spin serve, also with an eastern forehand grip). I'm just curious, does the pronation look like those other players if an eastern grip is used, versus a continental one on the serve?

I don't detect any wrist snap at all. I'm not even sure I would know what it feels like, as many have pointed out it is a misnomer. Is it just not pronating enough?

 

[JCo872]

Thanks for the helpful advice.

I went back and looked at those clips and my arm does have the same pronated position as the other clip, but of course it is just a tad after contact. Is the pro's clip just a moment or so after contact? Also, I'm hitting a serve with a lot of spin but when I go for the flatty then it doesn't quite look the same (racquet "brushing" ball from 8 to 2 on this spin serve, also with an eastern forehand grip). I'm just curious, does the pronation look like those other players if an eastern grip is used, versus a continental one on the serve?

I don't detect any wrist snap at all. I'm not even sure I would know what it feels like, as many have pointed out it is a misnomer. Is it just not pronating enough?

Those pics look great. Perfect pronation. Let me look again...

 

[Ryoma]

Lack of shoulder over shoulder rotation because your right hand is not locked in during the trunk rotation phase.

1. When the racket is parallet to the side of your body, lock in a structure. Your trunk will rotate naturally.

2. After your trunk fully rotate (right shoulder pass left shoulder, or right shoulder more into the court than left shoulder), unlock the structure and extend upward into the ball.

3. Keep your arm straight and pronate the whole arm. (Seems that you are a serve and volleyer that follows the Sampras finsihed by breaking at the elbow...)

 

[JCo872]

Thanks for the helpful advice.

I went back and looked at those clips and my arm does have the same pronated position as the other clip, but of course it is just a tad after contact. Is the pro's clip just a moment or so after contact? Also, I'm hitting a serve with a lot of spin but when I go for the flatty then it doesn't quite look the same (racquet "brushing" ball from 8 to 2 on this spin serve, also with an eastern forehand grip). I'm just curious, does the pronation look like those other players if an eastern grip is used, versus a continental one on the serve?

I don't detect any wrist snap at all. I'm not even sure I would know what it feels like, as many have pointed out it is a misnomer. Is it just not pronating enough?

Is the super slow motion serve a flat serve?

Your motion is beautiful. In fact, people should study and imitate your motion. In fact, up until contact I thought that thing was going to be a rocket.

It's just that the pronation looks a little off for a flat serve in the slow motion video. If you get your toss more to the left it might be different. And you are using an Eastern grip is that right?

 

[yemenmocha]

thanks everyone, very helpful. I'm putting a lot of time into this serve this week and I'm optimistic about longterm results.

None of the serves are flatties. They're all my "heavy" spin first serve. I'm not surprised that you were let down by the results - that's part of my problem. The serve isn't big like it was when I was a teenager. I miss it.

It still hits low to mid fence at the backcourt but not what I want it to be. Here's the full speed to see how let down you were:

http://s130.photobucket.com/albums/p250/mytennis/?action=view&current=ServeJan8behind.flv

 

[bribeiro]

thanks everyone, very helpful. I'm putting a lot of time into this serve this week and I'm optimistic about longterm results.

None of the serves are flatties. They're all my "heavy" spin first serve. I'm not surprised that you were let down by the results - that's part of my problem. The serve isn't big like it was when I was a teenager. I miss it.

It still hits low to mid fence at the backcourt but not what I want it to be. Here's the full speed to see how let down you were:

http://s130.photobucket.com/albums/p250/mytennis/?action=view&current=ServeJan8behind.flv

Man, you have one great serve, how tall are you?

 

[yemenmocha]

Thanks, 6-4.:evil:

 

[JCo872]

thanks everyone, very helpful. I'm putting a lot of time into this serve this week and I'm optimistic about longterm results.

None of the serves are flatties. They're all my "heavy" spin first serve. I'm not surprised that you were let down by the results - that's part of my problem. The serve isn't big like it was when I was a teenager. I miss it.

It still hits low to mid fence at the backcourt but not what I want it to be. Here's the full speed to see how let down you were:

http://s130.photobucket.com/albums/p250/mytennis/?action=view&current=ServeJan8behind.flv

That serve looked like it had a ton of pop to me. The only thing you can do for more pace is flatten it out and get the toss more to the left. It actually looks like a rocket now that I see it in full speed.

 

[Thiseas]

There is no way you can rip this serve of yours with this kind of ball toss. It’s way too ambitious (unless you can execute leg pushes with 300 kg). Sorry for the metric system, I’m from Europe.

Your legs are adding absolutely nothing to your serve in terms of speed or spin. They are only getting you where the ball is.
Your leg push lacks the physical strength and the technique, to take advantage of this ball toss. When I say technique I’m reffering to the way you execute the pin point stance which I have already talked to you about.

Take a look at this photo

If you straighten your leg at this point you could almost touch the ground.
At this next photo, right after contact you couldn’t even straighten your leg. You already “crashed”.

Compare it now with these photos.

You can see that although the distance from the ground is not impressive, the body weight is exploding through contact. That means that the speed of the leg thrust is added to the racket speed. In your case you are actually taking speed of the whole process.

Before dealing with the shoulder rotation you have to solve this problem and there are two ways to go about it: hit the gym, loose 10 kg and build Becker size thighs, or toss the ball a bit more realistically (a bit less into the court but make sure to keep the contact point in front and a bit to the left)

After working at it, I will help you with the shoulder thing. Chances are though, that once you got the timing of the leg push right, the problem will take care of itself, .

http://s134.photobucket.com/albums/q87/teosoph/?action=view&current=leg_push.flv

http://s134.photobucket.com/albums/q87/teosoph/?action=view&current=leg_push_slow.flv

 

[Duzza]

jco, while you're at it, analyze this serve please

http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v98/akj27/?action=view&current=MVI_0034-1.flv


Just the form, I know that's not a tennis court but it counts lol.

The serve looks great right until you're racquet goes up. IMO it is too late (your racquet getting up)

 

[bribeiro]

That's exactly the same thing I said thiseas, but one guy said his toss is perfectly fine for a serve and volleyer.