Help with Serve Pt. 2 (new pics/vids)

[yemenmocha]

Thiseas: if you're still around, I'd greatly appreciate any comments.
(same to everyone)

Ok here are alternative views of the service motion. I'm trying to get more shoulder over shoulder rotation but struggling to get it there with just a leftward toss.

I've isolated each view with pics showing shoulder rotation (or lack thereof) and contact point. The contact point is something that I'm wondering if it is the cause of my shoulder pain - too far in front, top of racquet, etc.

Here they are:

Videos in next post.

 

[yemenmocha]

More pics:

 

[yemenmocha]

New vids, different angles.

http://s130.photobucket.com/albums/...?action=view&current=side2serveslowmotion.flv

http://s130.photobucket.com/albums/...s/?action=view&current=Sideclipslowmotion.flv

http://s130.photobucket.com/albums/.../?action=view&current=ServeJan8behindslow.flv

http://s130.photobucket.com/albums/...ion=view&current=FrontViewServeSlowmotion.flv

Ok so how can I get more shoulder over shoulder rotation? More left toss? more flexibility? How do Safin and others do it?

 

[TonyB]

Man, I'm not sure what you're looking for. I'm sure there are some very minor changes you can make, but from what I can see, you have a world-class service motion. Your racquet drop, shoulder rotation, and knee bend are all great.

HOWEVER...

The main thing I can see that I don't particularly like is the fact that you're crossing over your left leg with your right. If you look at the top-most picture in your second post, you can see how awkward your feet are positioned. This is undoubtedly screwing up some of your thrust and throwing off your timing. It's not really possible to have a solid "base" from which to launch your serve with your feet positioned like that.

Either try a platform stance, or work on positioning your feet so that they work TOGETHER to drive upwards into the ball.

Honestly, the rest of your motion I would just leave alone. Fix your feet, then re-evaluate your serve.

 

[TonyB]

I noticed something else, I guess, in looking at the pictures. The ball toss looks awfully far out into the court. Maybe bring it back a bit to help prevent your body from "falling into" the court.

I do like your overall motion, though. I only wish I had that motion to work from.

 

[zzzbrianxxx]

Your ball toss is right where it should be. The only thing I can suggest is the same thing Tony did. You bring your right foot to the baseline, which opens up your shoulders a bit. If you use more of a pinpoint stance and drag your right foot to right behind your left foot, you close the shoulders thus creating more power.

 

[noobplayer]

are you suppose to jump off the ground?

 

[yemenmocha]

Well something is killing my shoulder and several people have told me it is my service motion. I'm also disappointed in not getting the power I used to get on the serve before I quit for many years. Maybe it's the Babolat racquet or just simply age, but there's something not right here.

When I look at video clips of Safin and others they get more shoulder over shoulder rotation and I can't seem to match it, at least not on video. I tend to stay too upright and they are able to keep that left shoulder up and then somehow "windmill" the right one up and over and generate a lot of power.

Thank you for the footwork comments. I'll experiment with that for sure, but I can't use a fixed platform stance. It throws off my whole rhythm. I *need* to be able to drag that foot up or at least place it up forward.

Again, thanks to everyone.

Thiseas - are you out there?

 

[jeebeesus]

can you download it on to Youtube? cant seem to open your link. tks

 

[Ryoma]

Lack of shoulder over shoulder rotation because your right hand is not locked in during the trunk rotation phase.

1. When the racket is parallet to the side of your body, lock in a structure. Your trunk will rotate naturally.

2. After your trunk fully rotate (right shoulder pass left shoulder, or right shoulder more into the court than left shoulder), unlock the structure and extend upward into the ball.

3. Keep your arm straight and pronate the whole arm. (Seems that you are a serve and volleyer that follows the Sampras finsihed by breaking at the elbow...)

You should be able add lot more power to your serve.

 

[bribeiro]

I don't really any think any of us are qualified to critique your serve but I'll try anyway lol.

Your toss is way too far into the court, also, one thing that helps with shoulder rotation is, try to get your left shoulder as high as possible when in trophy position, and your right as low as possible, while still maintaining balance, that helped me.


Anyway, you have a great serve man!

 

[Solat]

I don't really any think any of us are qualified to critique your serve but I'll try anyway lol.

Your toss is way too far into the court, also, one thing that helps with shoulder rotation is, try to get your left shoulder as high as possible when in trophy position, and your right as low as possible, while still maintaining balance, that helped me.


Anyway, you have a great serve man!

From his motion i assume that he is a serve and volleyer so his ball toss is perfect for his game style

 

[patrick922]

no problems with the serve. looks like a textbook serve!!

i have a friend who serves exactly like that, same motion, same stance, same pinpoint stance positioning and lemme tell you he gets very good pop on his serve.

HOLD ON.... FOOT FAULT IN THE LAST VIDEO LOL.... no big deal though it is still a great service motion

 

[bribeiro]

Heres one more

http://cache.gettyimages.com/xc/107...4AD9FDB9CF1935D0110981834F28D161F713C5E1224D8



I'd like to think Sampras is a pretty good Serve and Volleyer Solat.

 

[FiveO]

Again, nice motion. I'm impressed that you were able to move your toss as far as you did without losing continuity and flow. You obviously have a very, very solid background. The track and arc of the tossed ball are very advanced (Sampras-esque) and already seem repeatable from this small sample. Nice job.

I don't see anything in the motion, per se, as the culprit responsible for your shoulder pain. Overuse as in too much too soon, or old damage rearing its ugly head in combination with an older chassis now seem more likely. Perhaps, and only perhaps, you may be a tad early on contact and may be "popping" to absolute extension at contact instead of flowing through it. A slight lowering of contact point either by lowering the toss a hair or by delaying your attack on the ball a tick could remedy that. In any event don't be too long to see a sports Ortho if pain persists.

As stated the motion is very good. Being hyper-critical, however, what I do see in these new vids is that while the weight transfer from back to front is sound, with a good bow of the front side/front hip stretch, your shoulders are sliding forward at a very constant speed, sliding with the hips. Compare this photo of another "slide to pin-point, front foot landing" server in the load phase with the frame at 00:13 in the first video you provided in this thread (I couldn't figure out how to create that still from your video).

Note that in Krajicek's load phase his toss shoulder is significantly "behind" his toss side hip. His hips have slid and his front side hip is well forward of the baseline as his shoulders delay and remain well behind the baseline. This creates a more pronounced stretch and bowing of the front (left) side and a greater distance to travel from load into contact which equals higher racquet speed at contact. Side benifits are that this position allows more time/space for the shoulders to rotate near vertical in the load phase, toss shoulder over hitting shoulder as viewed from this angle. Achieving near vertical on this axis in addition to the one corrected with the toss placement further promotes a more vertical cartwheeling of the shoulders hitting shoulder over toss shoulder. It can also allow some added time to allow the toss to fall that hair I alluded to earlier.

Compare Krajicek's position to your's at 00:13 in the video. You'll see that your toss side shoulder has already caught up with and/or passed the front side hip into the court at about the same point. You've spent some of that potential "snap" of the front side before transitioning toward contact, which may be putting more stress on the hitting shoulder as it is forced to make up for the energy loss.

What you may want to consider is slowing down that shoulder slide, delay it, save it to store the energy in that front side during the load phase so it can released in more of a body snap into contact. Whether you employ a "left hip lead" or "upper body hold back" swing thought your toss shoulder should "trail" the front hip in the load phase.

Some of this has to do with your flexibility limits, but as many of us those can probably be increased with a little weight loss and some stretching regimen concentrating on the core.

Good luck

5

 

[mistapooh]

You reminded of sampras for a second.

 

[JCo872]

It really looks to me like you are opening up the face of your racket too soon. This prevents the full power of pronation into the ball.

See what I mean here:

http://www.hi-techtennis.com/serve/student/racket_face.php

Jeff

 

[yemenmocha]

Thanks again to everyone. No need to worry about being hyper-critical. I'm posting this so I can get critical feedback and suggestions. With just a few days of modifications with the toss I'm seeing improved results already. Every 2-4 serves I hit one that feels effortless, has much more power than the others, and results in no aftershock pain in the shoulder. I'm happy! I can only do 1-2 hopppers per day with the sensitive shoulder. More later...

**P.S. regarding the foot fault in some of the vids if you look closer I'm in the air at that point, but maybe you're right.

 

[Mike Cottrill]

no aftershock pain in the shoulder.

Where is your shoulder pain/arm pain? I found if either my toss it to far out (like someone said) or my back goes and I get no leg lift I can end up hyper extending my arm and can get pain at the top of the tricep or around the rotator. If that happened to me on a regular basis I think my arm would fall off. At 6’4”, you’re bound to have huge serve.

 

[onehandbh]

It might be helpful to include rotator cuff exercises into your
weekly regimen and also to really warm up your shoulder, elbow, and
body before serving.

I took a 5+ year layoff from competitive tennis and
then started playing in some leagues last year and initially my shoulder
hurt as well. I think the problem was that my shoulder muscles and the
small stabilizer muscles (rotator/shoulder) were out of condition, but my
body still remembered how to serve and I was trying to serve with the
same arm/racquet head speed as I did before. After doing some
rotator cuff exercises the pain went away and now I can serve with
ease and pain free. (still trying to tweek my motion to make it
a bit more efficient)

 

[onehandbh]

One more thing. You can probably be a little looser when you serve
(though your technique looks good). You might also be a hair late
in your contact point. Meaning the point of maximum racquet head speed
in your swing is slightly prior to your current contact point.

 

[yemenmocha]

How long did you do the rotator cuff exercises?

I'm on a regimen for that but I don't think it is doing much, if anything.

 

[AJK1]

Ok, i've been watching your vids closely.
The reason i can see that you are not getting enough shoulder rotation is the fact that your right foot comes right next to your left when you serve. This turns your trunk parallel to the service line way too early. It would also give you shoulder problems, as you've stated before. Venus Williams serves like this. Even though she does well with it, it's not recommended. Have a look at serves from Fed, Sampras, and Mcenroe, they all have a platform stance that produces lots of shoulder rotation. Also, you foot fault a lot, stand another inch behind the line. And on the duece side, watch your back foot, it looked pretty close to going over the centre line.

 

[jackson vile]

How long did you do the rotator cuff exercises?

I'm on a regimen for that but I don't think it is doing much, if anything.

Some things that I would point out is that you seem to be rushing your actual toss. You want to have majority weight on the back foot and you don't want to start put the weight on the front until the ball leave your hand.


Next you are tossing way way too far out in front

You want your bow so that you get a really good hip stretech so that your tossing hand will be right over your front foot or further back with your hip out, and you have to lean back.

As you extend the legs you have to keep that arnch in the back all the way through.


Don't try jumping up, you just want the legs to give kinda a forward pump, and the whips help you throw the racket at the ball, so the legs should end up being straight, you pull your body in as you are hitting.

Finally I would suggest keeping a really lose wrist, when you force yourself to keep the lose wrist and exagerate it at frist it will not allow you to cheat the motion at all.

Lots of times people myself included will use the wrist to bail them out of a bad serve, but there is not real power there.

When you keep it relaxed you are forcing the rest of the body to produce all the momentum before the the wrist action.

So if forces good form or the ball will go no where.

You are so so close, once you make some minor adjustments then you will have a true pro serve IMO.

 

[bribeiro]

Ok, i've been watching your vids closely.
The reason i can see that you are not getting enough shoulder rotation is the fact that your right foot comes right next to your left when you serve. This turns your trunk parallel to the service line way too early. It would also give you shoulder problems, as you've stated before. Venus Williams serves like this. Even though she does well with it, it's not recommended. Have a look at serves from Fed, Sampras, and Mcenroe, they all have a platform stance that produces lots of shoulder rotation. Also, you foot fault a lot, stand another inch behind the line. And on the duece side, watch your back foot, it looked pretty close to going over the centre line.

That has nothing to do with it, LOTS of pros serve like that, and get plenty of shoulder rotation. Rafter being one for example.

 

[AJK1]

Not quite. Rafter had huge shoulder problems in his career don't forget.
Your close, but no cigar.

 

[bribeiro]

this guy here seems to be doing pretty good

http://youtube.com/watch?v=VIWF07KW9k4

 

[AJK1]

Just shows how little you know, he footfaults every time. It's a bad technique, that some can get away with. The best servers, Federer, Sampras, McEnroe, Roddick etc all have a platform stance.

 

[bribeiro]

Just shows how little you know, he footfaults every time. It's a bad technique, that some can get away with. The best servers, Federer, Sampras, McEnroe, Roddick etc all have a platform stance.

Ivanicevic, ljubicic, Johansson, etc.

Shows how little YOU know, all you do is come to this forum giving your worthless insights saying you have a textbook backhand, etc, when you're probably a 3.5.

 

[FiveO]

I have to agree that use of a pinpoint and good shoulder rotation are NOT mutually exclusive: Stich and Krajicek being other examples.

Early on in my playing history I learned pinpoint and a rear foot landing similar to Stich and much later transitioned to a platform stance. Each has it's own slight advantage/limitation but not in terms of shoulder rotation. On the other hand, teaching the serve, I favor platform over pinpoint for most NTRP's because it is easier to maintain balance throughout the motion for most.

 

[skuludo]

I don't think AJK1 understands what mutually exclusive means.


In logic, two mutually exclusive (or "mutual exclusive" according to some sources) propositions are propositions that logically cannot both be true. To say that more than two propositions are mutually exclusive may, depending on context mean that no two of them can both be true, or only that they cannot all be true. The term pairwise mutually exclusive always means no two of them can both be true.

In probability theory, events E1, E2, ..., En are said to be mutually exclusive if the occurrence of any one of them automatically implies the non-occurrence of the remaining n − 1 events. In other words, two mutually exclusive events cannot both occur.

In short, mutual exclusivity implies that at most one of the events may occur. Compare this to the concept of being collectively exhaustive, which means that at least one of the events must occur.


Examples
A flipped coin coming up heads and the same coin coming up tails at the same time is not possible as they are mutually exclusive events.
A student passing a test and failing it are mutually exclusive (though someone can fail a test, retake it, and then pass- or have the grade scaled).
When rolling a six-sided die, each of the outcomes 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 and 6 are mutually exclusive and Collectively exhaustive, because no more than one outcome can occur simultaneously and they encompass the entire range of possible outcomes.
The logical operation A XOR B means A and B are mutually exclusive and cannot both be true at the same time. In order for A XOR B to be true, either A or B must be true but not both.

 

[skuludo]

FiveO when you say mutually exclusive it means that the events cannot occur at the same time.

Not mutually exclusive means the events can occur at the same time.

FiveO the word mutually exclusive is most likely out of context and I think the word correlation is much better.

The full meaning of Pearson Product Moment Correlation Coefficient. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pearson_product-moment_correlation_coefficient

Anyone remember how to use the Pearson Product Moment Correlation Coefficent. I forgot what those variables mean. I know that Z is for z-scores. Its the calculation you make to determine the result through the normal distribution. That sideways M is a sigma.

When you obtain your data and you perform the calculation you will get a answer with a range of one to negative one. Zero means that there is no correlation of the data.

If you graph your data 1 means that the samples accend. -1 means the data decends.


I don't remember how it worked. Help FiveO?

 

[skuludo]

Also the data must be collected in a certain way to use Pearson Product-Moment Correlation Coefficient in order to prove whether there is any correlation between shoulder rotation and the pinpoint stance.

"Also the data must be collected in a certain way" This sentence is refering to elements. I think elements are the headings of your statistical data. You either had the yes no type or a type similar to money, but I can't remember the words to express that. The speed of your car is another one similar to money.

 

[onehandbh]

How long did you do the rotator cuff exercises?

I'm on a regimen for that but I don't think it is doing much, if anything.

I still do them about once a week. Sometimes less when I'm lazy.
I would keep doing them for as long as you play tennis. Start off using
ridiculously light weights (like 2 lbs) and don't try to increase the weight too
quickly. Just focus on using perfect form.

 

[FiveO]

Alrighty then:

1-using a pinpoint stance does not preclude or limit proper shoulder rotation

2-employing proper shoulder rotation does not prevent the use of a pinpoint stance



A pinpoint stance can cause balance issues for many players.

 

[skuludo]

I've given it some thought and ignored the math. My mind is fried. It's smoking.

Mutually exclusive means there is no correlation.
Not mutually exclusive means there is correlation.

When you accidently used not mutually exclusive you were saying what AJK1 said was true. Then your explaination contradicts your opening sentence.

Keep it simple makes it eaiser for many people to understand rather than a couple of people.

 

[AJK1]

I'd love to get Skuludo and Bribeiro on a court and put them through some drills and skills, and work on their techniques. They wouldn't know what hit 'em. After watching their videos of themselves i think it's laughable they even try to advise others on how to do things on a tennis court. I don't have to post a video of myself to prove my tennis knowledge, my reputation is intact. My coach who used to coach in Florida, says i'm a 5.0, with a pro level backhand, but i don't like to talk all that garbage on these boards. I have nothing to prove.

 

[Redflea]

How long did you do the rotator cuff exercises?

I'm on a regimen for that but I don't think it is doing much, if anything.

My experience w/the exercises has been very good.

I've got a very old rotator cuff injury (from about 20 years ago) that I finally went in again to the Dr. on to see if it was operable after I had re-aggravated it badly again last year. They said the knife wasn't a good option for various reasons, and recommended exercises and a few PT sessions.

I've been doing the exercises for about two or three months now, and the have made a big difference for me. My shoulder is still not 100% in "normal" use (like around the house...holding things over my head, lifting things away from my body, etc.), though it's getting to be less of an issue as time goes on.

Things on the tennis court are even better. I have gone from having a very limited service motion and very low power, to being able to serve to being able to hit closer to my old power levels, and am having no problems hitting slice/kick serves. I didn't take much time off at all (stupid me) but I did stop serviing for several weeks (only rallied), and did some underhanded serving as well in matches after that.

The change came slowly, and you really have to be dedicated about doing the exercises on schedule and w/the correct difficulty...at first I was doing it too hard, and then not hard enough. My PT guy was a big help in getting that worked out. The other thing I do is warm up my shoulder much more carefully than I used to...and my first service game I take it very easy.

I can still give myself a pretty painful "twinge" if I fall into bad form or have a bad service mis-hit, but my overall situation is night-and-day from before I started. Not feeling pain during or after serving. I am a big believer in the exercises and don't expect to stop doing them. In fact, I've started doing them on my left arm as well...(don't want to end up all lopsided. ) (I also do some general weight-training as a part of my fitness workouts.)

Everybody's different, of course, and I strongly suggest you get seen by your doctor and get some PT (at least a few sessions) to make sure you're doing the right exercies and doing them the right way...(sounds like you may already have done that?). Remember...getting medical advice on the internet is like getting your homework done by a stranger...you have no idea if they know what they're doing, and and it sure isn't they're butt in a sling if they screw it up. If you haven't see, see a doctor.

 

[bribeiro]

I'd love to get Skuludo and Bribeiro on a court and put them through some drills and skills, and work on their techniques. They wouldn't know what hit 'em. After watching their videos of themselves i think it's laughable they even try to advise others on how to do things on a tennis court. I don't have to post a video of myself to prove my tennis knowledge, my reputation is intact. My coach who used to coach in Florida, says i'm a 5.0, with a pro level backhand, but i don't like to talk all that garbage on these boards. I have nothing to prove.

You watched my videos? Cool, It's nice to know you take the internet very seriously

 

[AJK1]

Ivanisevic, Ljubicic and Johanssen do not cross their right foot past their left, they move them together and then push off. Big difference my friends.
Good comeback Bribeiro lol lol

 

[bribeiro]

Are you mentally challenged? You were saying the best servers all used platform, which is not true, and then you gave us examples of players with platform, so I gave some examples of players with pin point. When will you admit you were wrong and stop being a cocky, arrogant idiot?

 

[AJK1]

When will YOU stop being an idiot!
Federer, Sampras, Roddick and McEnroe are widely known as the best servers of their time.
Ivanisevic, Ljubicic, Johanssen are extremly good, but not the best i'm afraid.
Again, close but no cigar Mr. Monkey

 

[skuludo]

If it is not my serve then I can definitly take a skill drill right now.
I am using others information on the serve. It's not mine.
You thought I came up with those ideas?

At this point the service is usable and will probly work as I still have control of direction.

What are you going to have me do in a skill drill?

Also if I was taking your drill how will you see me do? Use your imagination AJK1.

I have taken several drills hitting sessions at $17 for 1 hour 1/2 in the past, and that was how I gained the ability to hit my backhand down the line. For the forehand I just copied the backhand. It should now be a stable base again.
I would like to take the drill session there again, but the tennis center's roof was destroyed beyond repair by a storm here in December.
Here is the site http://www.tennis.ubc.ca/

 

[Ten_is]

my technique on serve sucked last year and I learned ALOT from alot of people on this forum so I don't hold too much weight but I know alot more than before so judge as you will.

Your serve resembles Sampras in alot of ways. The thing I say is on your toss, bring the ball in less rather than totally into the court and hold your tossing arm up longer and really straighten it. Besides that it looks really good. Sure maybe some hip issues with your pinpoint, and issues with tossing and moving your body too early but it's looking really amazing in my eyes. One other thing is at the beginning, keep your back foot closer to your front one. There's no reason you need to keep it so far behind. Just my thoughts and hope they help

 

[fuzz nation]

Just in case you're still taking input on the vid's of your serve, you may want to check a couple of things.

It looks like the rotation you get when you turn away, then back through your hitting zone is ok. Trying to exaggerate it more might mess your balance up and that's usually no fun. If I watch just your left leg through the entire motion, it looks like it's already fully extended as you go up to make contact and you only get a push-off with your right leg. Again, this looks like it feeds your rotational release, but diminishes your vertical drive. If your body position is a little more centered over both feet as you go up to contact, you'll have more extension to call on from both legs. When you make contact now, you're already starting to pull your left thigh back forward and I'm pretty sure that's costing you some energy.

At the moment you release the toss, look at where your racquet is - still below your waist maybe, but certainly not up at your shoulder level and you don't take an insanely high toss. That racquet still has a lot of ground to cover before it reaches the hitting zone on time and you could be straining your shoulder by trying to catch up. Consider having the racquet at shoulder level right when you finish the weight transfer onto your back foot.

Thanks for the looks and be well!

 

[NamRanger]

When will YOU stop being an idiot!
Federer, Sampras, Roddick and McEnroe are widely known as the best servers of their time.
Ivanisevic, Ljubicic, Johanssen are extremly good, but not the best i'm afraid.
Again, close but no cigar Mr. Monkey

Roddick does not have a platform stance, he brings his left foot backwards slightly IIRC. He has his own unique stance, it's sort of a cross between pinpoint and platform.



Federer is not the best server of his time, he's got an accurate serve with plenty of spin, but by no means the best.


Johanssen outserves Roddick every time they play against each other, goes to show how much you know.


Goran has a pinpoint stance from what I can remember also, are you going to say he wasn't one of the best servers of his time too?

 

[drakulie]

Well something is killing my shoulder and several people have told me it is my service motion. I'm also disappointed in not getting the power I used to get on the serve before I quit for many years. Maybe it's the Babolat racquet or just simply age, but there's something not right here.

When I look at video clips of Safin and others they get more shoulder over shoulder rotation and I can't seem to match it, at least not on video. I tend to stay too upright and they are able to keep that left shoulder up and then somehow "windmill" the right one up and over and generate a lot of power.

Thank you for the footwork comments. I'll experiment with that for sure, but I can't use a fixed platform stance. It throws off my whole rhythm. I *need* to be able to drag that foot up or at least place it up forward.

Again, thanks to everyone.

Thiseas - are you out there?

Dude, you have an awesome service motion. I have been looking at those vids, and I can't see anything wrong. Have you gone to the doctor to have your shoulder checked out? Maybe you have a small tear, or some scar tissue build-up?

As for the feet>>> I woudln't bother with that at all or mess with it. Your motion, including your timing of bringing your right foot up is excellent. That is all personal preference.

Again, I would rule out any small injury you may have before I tinkered with a serve like that.

Great stuff! Thanks for sharing, and bets of luck.

 

[tenn23]

It really looks to me like you are opening up the face of your racket too soon. This prevents the full power of pronation into the ball.

See what I mean here:

http://www.hi-techtennis.com/serve/student/racket_face.php

Jeff

I agree. I don't know where I read this, but it said keeping the racquet "on edge" reduces aerodynamic drag and increases racquet head speed. I think it was from Oscar Wegner's book how to play like a pro in two hours. By the way your serve is quite awesome already.

 

[yemenmocha]

Thank you again to everyone.

I've made one major change, just today in fact. I've demo-ed racquets for about the last month and finally switched to a more flexible, softer frame - the Wilson nBlade. With only a few changes to the serve motion over the past couple months I can serve much more consistently and powerfully now. Some of it is the racquet and the relief my shoulder gets, and maybe some of it is minor motion adjustments. I plan to film something quite soon and do a little comparison.

The short way of summing it up is I get more of a "pronation snap" on the serve now and it is taking stress off my shoulder. I'm also able to hold the grip lower on the handle. Without reaching so far into the court I can still hit a nice serve at 90% effort and feel much less shoulder pain.

Again, thanks all for the input.

 

[maverick1]

Yemenmocha,
I just saw this thread.
Great looking serve. I am not qualified to give you advice since my serve is at a lower level. I only post because I used to have shoulder pain and I managed to fix it by changing my motion, and I think you have the same issue in your motion that I had.

The problem is the angle between the upper arm and the line joining the left and right shoulders just before contact. Ideally, the two shoulders and elbow must make a straight line or the elbow should be below that line. In your case, when I watched the back view, the elbow looks well above that line.

I read this in an article that specifically mentioned Rafter as an example of it. (Unfortunately, I don't remember the link). Rafter had an angle similar to you, may be less extreme than you. That article showed pictures of Roddick and some other pros who all had their elbows collinear with shoulders or even elbow below shoulder line. At first I found it hard to believe. Being a pretty new player who had never been coached, I had naively assumed the the upper arm should be more or less perpendicular to the shoulders !!

Anyway, I fixed the problem by trying to lean to the left and dip my left shoulder and also keeping my upper arm a bit more to the right.

Some of the suggestions by other posters on your motion may make it easier for you to do achieve safer biomechanics .

Even though I am unqualified to comment, I will shoot my mouth off any way - I think you are tossing too far into the court for your athletic ability. Sure many pros toss it in that deep, but they get more effortless elevation and forward thrust than you. That contrast between Sampras and you that Bribeiro posted is quite revealing. Sampras' legs are almost vertical. Your legs are kicking back. Also, you probably have to square you shoulders too early just to reach the ball. This may have a lot to do with not being able to get properly shoulder/elbow alignment. But I am shooting off far beyond my expertise.







I don't think anyone mentioned this point before, though AJK1 touched on it(Rafter having shoulder problems).