Henin is so lucky THAT Serena didnt show up as often at Roland Garros and vs her

[NadalAgassi]

Sorry to break reality to Henin fanboys but pretty much all experts rank Henin above Venus. You ask Bud Collins, Virginia Wade, Ann Jones, John Barret, John McEnroe, Fred Stolle, people from all parts of the World, do you think any would rate Henin as greater than Venus in the history of tennis. Dream again. Also the Tennis Channel list (which I dont think is that great anyway) but which TMF worships to death even rated Venus above Henin, yet here the usual hypocrite is still trying to pretend like Henin is clearly higher, when this posters stated word of gospel truth even said otherwise.

 

[TMF]

Sorry to break reality to Henin fanboys but pretty much all experts rank Henin above Venus. You ask Bud Collins, Virginia Wade, Ann Jones, John Barret, John McEnroe, Fred Stolle, people from all parts of the World, do you think any would rate Henin as greater than Venus in the history of tennis. Dream again. Also the Tennis Channel list (which I dont think is that great anyway) but which TMF worships to death even rated Venus above Henin, yet here the usual hypocrite is still trying to pretend like Henin is clearly higher, when this posters stated word of gospel truth even said otherwise.

Henin's resume is more rounded, more complete player despite having a much shorter career. I don't exactly agree 100% with the list from tennis channel, but do respect their knowledge, unlike many Henin haters in here likes to put her down.

 

[tennis_pro]

Sorry to break reality to Henin fanboys but pretty much all experts rank Henin above Venus. You ask Bud Collins, Virginia Wade, Ann Jones, John Barret, John McEnroe, Fred Stolle, people from all parts of the World, do you think any would rate Henin as greater than Venus in the history of tennis. Dream again. Also the Tennis Channel list (which I dont think is that great anyway) but which TMF worships to death even rated Venus above Henin, yet here the usual hypocrite is still trying to pretend like Henin is clearly higher, when this posters stated word of gospel truth even said otherwise.

Obviously Tennis Channel included doubles as well, that's why Venus was rated higher than Henin. In singles only, it's very even.

 

[MTF07]

Obviously Tennis Channel included doubles as well, that's why Venus was rated higher than Henin. In singles only, it's very even.

Bob and Mike Bryan have more doubles slams than Nadal has singles slams, I guess they are > Nadal.

In singles, I think Henin is pretty clearly ahead of Venus.

 

[kishnabe]

Prime Venus>Prime Henin.

Achievement wise in Singles....Henin edges slightly!

 

[NadalAgassi]

Obviously Tennis Channel included doubles as well, that's why Venus was rated higher than Henin. In singles only, it's very even.

I agree and that is the whole point. Very similar single careers, so in that case when two people are so identical in singles you look to doubles as well and Venus is light years ahead there. Impact on the sport and peak level play is Venus easily too. So overall it is Venus, not by a huge margin, but clearly ahead.

 

[NadalAgassi]

Bob and Mike Bryan have more doubles slams than Nadal has singles slams, I guess they are > Nadal.

In singles, I think Henin is pretty clearly ahead of Venus.

It is stupid beyond words to compare people who have done NOTHING and I really mean nothing to every sense of the word in singles to people who have legendary careers in both singles and doubles. Of course singles > doubles in importance. However contrary to your foolish claim the singles careers of Venus and Henin are virtually a wash. Not only do they have exactly the same # of singles slams but exactly the same # of singles titles, how could you get anymore even than that. It seems some in this thread have some fantasy Henin is a 14 slam singles winner like Serena, rather than a 7 slam singles winner like Venus who hasnt won Wimbledon even once, so for those people time to wake up, and check the WTA site if that is what it needs to awaken to reality. What is Henin's big edge, winning the Australian Open once to give her 3 of 4, woodoo, such a big thing, LOL! That is more than negated anyway that Venus's longevity is light years beyond Henin's and Venus's peak level of play is regarded by all experts as higher than Henin's and she was on top at a time of much more competition (1999-2003) than Henin (2003-2007). It would be one thing if Henin had the career slam rather than being Wimbledon-less.

So at the very least Venus is on par with Henin in singles and when two singles players are that identical then you look to doubles as well, and Venus is in another stratosphere. No you dont look to doubles when comparing a singles mug who cant even play top 100 singles to double digit slam winners, you look at it when you have two players virtually inseperable in singles.

 

[The-Champ]

I agree and that is the whole point. Very similar single careers, so in that case when two people are so identical in singles you look to doubles as well and Venus is light years ahead there. Impact on the sport and peak level play is Venus easily too. So overall it is Venus, not by a huge margin, but clearly ahead.

+ this http://www.wtatennis.com/headtohead/venus-williams_2255881_9027/0,,12781~9027~3541,00.html

 

[NadalAgassi]

+ this http://www.wtatennis.com/headtohead/venus-williams_2255881_9027/0,,12781~9027~3541,00.html

This too. The talk of Henin being so far ahead in singles is hilarious. So you are far ahead of someone who has the same # of slams as you, same # of tournament titles while the other is still active and could add more, who you are owned an embarassing 7-2 in head to head, who was near the top over 3 different decades as opposed to your roughly 5 years, and who has 5 titles at the most prestigious event vs your 0. If anything Henin fans should be satisfied with being considered about on par with Venus in singles alone, which breaking it down might even be generous to Henin.

 

[THUNDERVOLLEY]

That's not the point because no one said Henin is greater than Venus in double.

Quote in question:

Henin playing her absolute best would beat anyone (at their absolute best) of her generation.

Which is a blanketing statement, about the overall game, not just singles. Venus is far beyond Henin.

 

[tennis_pro]

This too. The talk of Henin being so far ahead in singles is hilarious. So you are far ahead of someone who has the same # of slams as you, same # of tournament titles while the other is still active and could add more, who you are owned an embarassing 7-2 in head to head, who was near the top over 3 different decades as opposed to your roughly 5 years, and who has 5 titles at the most prestigious event vs your 0. If anything Henin fans should be satisfied with being considered about on par with Venus in singles alone, which breaking it down might even be generous to Henin.

The 7-2 h2h Venus has over Henin is misleading, the played only once since January 2003 - at the 2007 US semi-finals which Henin won in straight sets. If they played the majority of their matches in 2003-2007 I'm 100 % certain Henin would beat her a couple times. Even though they are roughly the same age (Venus is 2 years older), she peaked earlier than Henin which made the h2h look even worse.

Another problem for Henin is that her peak lasted 4-5 years and was vulnerable in every other season apart from 2003-2007 (she even missed a good year then because of sickness in 2004/2005) while Venus was a stable top tenner for a decade or so.

 

[MTF07]

So at the very least Venus is on par with Henin in singles and when two singles players are that identical then you look to doubles as well, and Venus is in another stratosphere. No you dont look to doubles when comparing a singles mug who cant even play top 100 singles to double digit slam winners, you look at it when you have two players virtually inseperable in singles.

I'm sorry, but you're foolish if you think doubles matters at all. The top players don't even play doubles. If doubles mattered, McEnroe would be rated above Lendl, Connors and perhaps even Borg. But they don't and he isn't.

 

[THUNDERVOLLEY]

I'm sorry, but you're foolish if you think doubles matters at all. The top players don't even play doubles. If doubles mattered, McEnroe would be rated above Lendl, Connors and perhaps even Borg. But they don't and he isn't.

There's debate about McEnroe's place among Connors and Lendl. That's not new.

 

[NadalAgassi]

I'm sorry, but you're foolish if you think doubles matters at all. The top players don't even play doubles. If doubles mattered, McEnroe would be rated above Lendl, Connors and perhaps even Borg. But they don't and he isn't.

McEnroe is rated clearly above Agassi and is argued against Lendl and Connors by most experts, despite that his singles career is probably the weakest of the 4. Your apparent lack of awareness of this is meaningless. Borg has a far superior singles career by a huge margin.

Anyway even if we only looked at singles I would still give Venus the slight edge over Henin for all the reasons listed. At the very least they are comparable in singles and the idea Henin has a far superior singles career is pure fallacy and nobody has offered a half decent explanation for why other than the relatively weak on its own "3 of 4 slams vs 2 of 4".

 

[NadalAgassi]

The 7-2 h2h Venus has over Henin is misleading, the played only once since January 2003 - at the 2007 US semi-finals which Henin won in straight sets. If they played the majority of their matches in 2003-2007 I'm 100 % certain Henin would beat her a couple times. Even though they are roughly the same age (Venus is 2 years older), she peaked earlier than Henin which made the h2h look even worse.

Another problem for Henin is that her peak lasted 4-5 years and was vulnerable in every other season apart from 2003-2007 (she even missed a good year then because of sickness in 2004/2005) while Venus was a stable top tenner for a decade or so.

Fair point on the H2H. However you are right Henin was only a bonafide top player for about 5 years, Venus was for much longer, which is an edge in her corner. It is funny to see some Henin backers act like that is some plus for Henin with comments like "in a shorter career" (it wasnt even really much shorter considering she turned pro at 17 and retired at 29, it is her own problem if she was only a really good player less than half that time).

 

[abmk]

At the very least they are comparable in singles and the idea Henin has a far superior singles career is pure fallacy and nobody has offered a half decent explanation for why other than the relatively weak on its own "3 of 4 slams vs 2 of 4".

how on earth is 3 of the 4 slams vs 2 of the 4 a relatively weak argument ?

anyways other arguments :

henin more surface versatile , better on her weakest surface, grass than venus on hers, clay and obviously winning 3 of the 4 majors compared to 2 of the 4 for Venus. You could club Venus as a 'fast court specialist' and you wouldn't be that far off the mark ...

henin was YE #1 for 3 years, venus for zero

henin held no 1 ranking for plenty more weeks than venus

Henin doesn't have a far superior singles career, but I think one could easily make the argument that she is distinctly ahead of Venus in singles

 

[THUNDERVOLLEY]

how on earth is 3 of the 4 slams vs 2 of the 4 a relatively weak argument ?

anyways other arguments :

henin more surface versatile , better on her weakest surface, grass than venus on hers, clay and obviously winning 3 of the 4 majors compared to 2 of the 4 for Venus. You could club Venus as a 'fast court specialist' and you wouldn't be that far off the mark ...

henin was YE #1 for 3 years, venus for zero

henin held no 1 ranking for plenty more weeks than venus

Henin doesn't have a far superior singles career, but I think one could easily make the argument that she is distinctly ahead of Venus in singles

Venus won the (barely arguable) two biggest majors--Wimbledon and USO--back to back, showing a dominance Henin never dared dream of at her alleged best...particularly since she failed to win even one Wimbledon title.

 

[abmk]

Venus won the (barely arguable) two biggest majors--Wimbledon and USO--back to back, showing a dominance Henin never dared dream of at her alleged best...particularly since she failed to win even one Wimbledon title.

jeez, and how about dominance over an year, failing to end year end no 1 even once , which Henin did - not once, not twice, but thrice ?

 

[NadalAgassi]

The value of computer year end #1s for the women (if it ever carried much value) went out the window for good once Wozniacki ended two straight years as computer #1, one of those completely farcial with no justification whatsoever (2011) and forever extinguishing any value of computer WTA rankings. They are for nothing more than seeding purposes and entries into tournaments now. Venus was considered by all in tennis the real #1 of 2000 and 2001. Henin by all in 2007, and by some in 2003 and 2006, so in practical terms it is a tie. Nobody cares about computer ranks in the WTA, everyone knows who the real #1 is at a given time, whether it corelates to a computer and the laughable WTA ranking system put in place sometime around the turn of the century or not.

 

[TMF]

Venus won the (barely arguable) two biggest majors--Wimbledon and USO--back to back, showing a dominance Henin never dared dream of at her alleged best...particularly since she failed to win even one Wimbledon title.

Failed to win RG and AO is much worse than not winning Wimbledon.

 

[MTF07]

Fair point on the H2H. However you are right Henin was only a bonafide top player for about 5 years, Venus was for much longer, which is an edge in her corner. It is funny to see some Henin backers act like that is some plus for Henin with comments like "in a shorter career" (it wasnt even really much shorter considering she turned pro at 17 and retired at 29, it is her own problem if she was only a really good player less than half that time).

Venus was ranked 11th in 2003 and 48th in 2006. Venus was hardly top ten "for an entire decade".

 

[MTF07]

Failed to win RG and AO is much worse than not winning Wimbledon.

Yeah and Henin was a lot better at Wimbledon than Venus was at AO and RG.

 

[Tanya]

Henin winning 3 out of 4 slam is more of a complete player than Venus. She was close in completing her career slam by making 2 wimbledon finals. Plus, Venus never had a dominant year like Henin in 2007.

Henin > Venus.

Umm Venus made all four slam finals in a row actually, losing to Serena in each (the unarguable best player of the era) during the WTA's heyday (2002/3). Prior to that she won the Wimbledon/US Open double two years in a row. Henin reaching two wimbledon finals is basically the same as Venus making it to the finals of each of the 2 slams she never won. (Didn't she lose in one of those wimby finals to Venus btw?)

You're a delusional Williams hater.

Their careers are very close in terms of who is better -- it could really be argued either way, although I personally place Venus ahead of Henin. But to say one is "clearly" ahead of the other is ridiculous.

 

[TMF]

Umm Venus made all four slam finals in a row actually, losing to Serena in each (the unarguable best player of the era) during the WTA's heyday (2002/3). Prior to that she won the Wimbledon/US Open double two years in a row. Henin reaching two wimbledon finals is basically the same as Venus making it to the finals of each of the 2 slams she never won. (Didn't she lose in one of those wimby finals to Venus btw?)

You're a delusional Williams hater.

Their careers are very close in terms of who is better -- it could really be argued either way, although I personally place Venus ahead of Henin. But to say one is "clearly" ahead of the other is ridiculous.

I don't hate Serena. And even if I do, you're being hypocritical since you actually admitted that you hate Henin.

Whoever said Henin is "clearly" ahead of Venus, address them!

 

[Tanya]

I don't hate Serena. And even if I do, you're being hypocritical since you actually admitted that you hate Henin.

Whoever said Henin is "clearly" ahead of Venus, address them!

The difference is that I admit I don't like Henin but I still judge her tennis for her TENNIS, not for my personal dislike of her. Unlike you, who seems to appear in any thread where the word "Williams" is even mentioned, spewing nonsense about them.

As for the last part of my previous post, it was a general comment not directed at you.