Henin is so lucky THAT Serena didnt show up as often at Roland Garros and vs her

[NadalAgassi]

People always talk about Henin as if she is a far better clay courter than Serena. Which logically she is I suppose as she has 4 French Open titles to Serena's 1 and is 4-1 head to head vs Serena on clay. However Henin is sure lucky she never faced the Serena we saw against Stosur on clay. That version of Serena would spank Henin silly, even on clay.

 

[ollinger]

Pointless analysis. Serena played very well yesterday. A bit irrelevant when discussing entire careers. Henin dominated Serena on clay, and we have no reason to believe Serena didn't play well in those matches.

 

[ollinger]

(note: perhaps it's Serena who's the lucky one. She only faced Henin in one GS final -- Australia 2010 -- and needed three tough sets to prevail.)

 

[DjokovicForTheWin]

OP is pointless, thread makes sense.

 

[NadalAgassi]

Serena only played reasonably well in 2 of her matches vs Henin on clay. Berlin 2002 where she lost in a 3rd set tiebreak, and Rome 2002 where she won in straight sets. She was way off her game in the other 3 matches. The best of the remaining 3 was the 2003 French where Henin had to cheat to win as she was getting soundly outplayed the last 2 sets when Serena found some semblance of her game.

Highly respected tennis expert, former Tennis Champion, and current U.S Federation Cup Captain, Mary Joe Fernandez at the 2003 French: :"Henin knows the match is not in her hands. If both play their best Serena wins." No mention of it being any difference because of the clay, according to experts even on clay the match is all up to Serena when she plays Justine.

 

[Lionheart392]

Serena only played reasonably well in 2 of her matches vs Henin on clay. Berlin 2002 where she lost in a 3rd set tiebreak, and Rome 2002 where she won in straight sets. She was way off her game in the other 3 matches. The best of the remaining 3 was the 2003 French where Henin had to cheat to win as she was getting soundly outplayed the last 2 sets when Serena found some semblance of her game.

Highly respected tennis expert, former Tennis Champion, and current U.S Federation Cup Captain, Mary Joe Fernandez at the 2003 French: :"Henin knows the match is not in her hands. If both play their best Serena wins." No mention of it being any difference because of the clay, according to experts even on clay the match is all up to Serena when she plays Justine.

Care to name a few?

 

[NadalAgassi]

Care to name a few?

Mary Joe Fernandez, Tracy Austin, Chris Evert, Pam Shriver, Bud Collins, Mary Carillo. All have said if Serena and Justine play and Serena plays her best she wins on any surface (which includes clay).

 

[jm1980]

If ifs and buts were candy and nuts, we'd all have a merry Christmas.

Stupid thread is stupid. Henin owns all versions of Serena on clay.

 

[NadalAgassi]

I am not disputing Henin deserves to be rated as greater and overall better than Serena on clay. The wins are there, and at this point Henin has won much more than Serena on clay (although Serena has lots of times to potentially change that). However my only point is that Henin is fortunate she did not face an in the zone Serena more often on clay, since Serena at her best is too good for Henin on any surface, even on clay. Can anyone imagine Henin ever beating the Serena that was playing Charleston for instance.

 

[Raiden]

Serena didnt' prove squat by beating Samantha Stosur

That's cuz while Serena was fresh as a bunny due to playing only 4 or 5 games the previous day, Sam on the other hand was totally screwed by the Charleston organizers as they forced her to play two back to back matches not just in one day but in one half of one day! And on top of that the matches turned out to be long three setters.

So I'm not impressed by the freak events at Charleston. Before making an objective assessment of her form I'll wait and see the coming weeks if and when she performs in similar comprehensive way but not against a dead tired player who's been on the court for four or five hours the previous day but against IN FORM top players who have had similar amount of rest and preparation
.

 

[NadalAgassi]

Serena didnt' prove squat by beating Samantha Stosur

That's cuz while Serena was fresh as a bunny due playing only 4 or 5 games the previous day, Sam on the other hand was totally screwed by the Charleston organizers (they forced her to play two back to back matches not just in one day but in one half of the day! And the matches turned out to be long three setters.

So I'm not impressed by Ree at all. I'll wait before making an objective assessment of her form in the coming weeks (if and when she performs in such comprehensive way but not against a dead tired player who's been on the court for four or five hours the previous day but an IN FORM top player who has had the same amount of rest and preparation.

Well Safarova had the same rest and preperation for the final as Serena, and got squashed even more badly.

 

[Warriorroger]

Highly respected Mary Jo Fernandez? By whom is she higly respected. She is very biased concerning the sisters. Heard her and evil twin Shriver once commenting on the Graf-Serena match at Indian Wells, at one point Steffi asked the umpire to make her shut up between the points. Back to the thread, Hein would alwys have the upper hand on the clay of RG which is not like a hardcourtisch court a la Charleston.

 

[Raiden]

Well Safarova had the same rest and preperation for the final as Serena, and got squashed even more badly.

With all due respect but Safarova is not a top player.

To me top means top-ten or something very close to that.

 

[Towser83]

The thing is Serena likes beating up on players who have no belief vs her. She doesn't like having a rivalry with anyone but big sis. Unlike Federer/Nadal/Djokovic she does not relish the battle even if she knows she will come off the winner most of the time. She can't stand even losing one match. So when Henin was being the best player, Serena could not be bothered really going for it, she had less interest in tennis. Henin retires and Serena comes back to squash all the players who don't believe they can beat her. So maybe she could have beaten Henin more on clay but her innability to accept players being better than her on the day (as shown by the bvast amount of bad loser excuses after losing) applied a type of pressure to her and held her back.

You can kind of see the same thing with Federer who expected to win every match and thus felt the prssure of expectation, then look at Nadal and Djokovic who for different reasons did not - Nadal constantly talking about himself as vast underdog to remove pressure, and Djokovic being very used to being beaten.

 

[NadalAgassi]

The thing is Serena likes beating up on players who have no belief vs her. She doesn't like having a rivalry with anyone but big sis. Unlike Federer/Nadal/Djokovic she does not relish the battle even if she knows she will come off the winner most of the time. She can't stand even losing one match. So when Henin was being the best player, Serena could not be bothered really going for it, she had less interest in tennis. Henin retires and Serena comes back to squash all the players who don't believe they can beat her. So maybe she could have beaten Henin more on clay but her innability to accept players being better than her on the day (as shown by the bvast amount of bad loser excuses after losing) applied a type of pressure to her and held her back.

You can kind of see the same thing with Federer who expected to win every match and thus felt the prssure of expectation, then look at Nadal and Djokovic who for different reasons did not - Nadal constantly talking about himself as vast underdog to remove pressure, and Djokovic being very used to being beaten.

While it is not impossible that your theory is correct, one could also argue the other side. Henin miracelously began his run atop womens tennis (especialy off of clay) only when Serena and Venus went down with serious injuries in mid 2003, then soon suffered from the tragic death of their sister who both were incredibly close to. Coincidence. Amazingly even without Serena or Venus providing much competition for the next 5 years she managed to win only a mere 3 non clay slams during her reign atop the womens game, hardly stellar. Comparitively to other all time greats she is a 1 trick pony (mostly just clay). Even Nadal who people mock as only a clay courter has more non clay credentials than her, and achieved them all with Federer and Djokovic as his main rivals, while Henin battled relative lightweights like Jankovic, Sharapova, and Mauresmo in this mostly Williams MIA period. Prime Henin of 2004-early 2008 even lost 2 slam finals to Mauresmo in the same year, got spanked in straight sets twice in just over a year by Maria in slams, lost back to back round of 16s at the U.S Open in lopsided blowouts to Nadia Petrova and a 30 year old Mary Pierce, lost to both Marion Bartoli and Elena Danilidou at Wimbledon, and lost to Tatiana Garbin as the defending Champion at Roland Garros. Hardly stellar for a 7 slam winner at her career peak.

 

[DjokovicForTheWin]

I am not disputing Henin deserves to be rated as greater and overall better than Serena on clay. The wins are there, and at this point Henin has won much more than Serena on clay (although Serena has lots of times to potentially change that). However my only point is that Henin is fortunate she did not face an in the zone Serena more often on clay, since Serena at her best is too good for Henin on any surface, even on clay. Can anyone imagine Henin ever beating the Serena that was playing Charleston for instance.

You are basically then saying that Nadal is fortunate to not have faced a Federer who was less stubborn and willing to do anything required to win, because like you ascribe to Serena, clearly if Federer plays his best, Nadal has no chance.

 

[NadalAgassi]

You are basically then saying that Nadal is fortunate to not have faced a Federer who was less stubborn and willing to do anything required to win, because like you ascribe to Serena, clearly if Federer plays his best, Nadal has no chance.

On clay Nadal at his best would handily beat Federer at his best. The best Federer could manage is to perform respectably in this case. In fact on clay Nadal can play far below his best and still beat Federer at his very best, so a similar argument does not apply. No expert has ever suggested Federer could beat Nadal at his best on clay. On non clay surfaces Federer is currently more accomplished than Nadal anyway.

When it comes to Serena and Henin, Henin would have no chance to win vs Serena playing at her best, even on clay.

 

[DjokovicForTheWin]

What's Serena vs Henin H2H on clay? 4-1, so based on the data you can equally say Serena at her best would have no chance against Henin at her best. I mean it's from the data that it was derived Fed at his best would have no chance against Nadal at his best on clay.

 

[Winners or Errors]

Mary Joe Fernandez, Tracy Austin, Chris Evert, Pam Shriver, Bud Collins, Mary Carillo. All have said if Serena and Justine play and Serena plays her best she wins on any surface (which includes clay).

What do all of those "experts" have in common? They're all highly biased Americans.

 

[DjokovicForTheWin]

What do all of those "experts" have in common? They're all highly biased Americans.

Exactly! They are just Serenatards. OP is mixing up subjective evaluations of a player vs. actual data.

 

[NadalAgassi]

What do all of those "experts" have in common? They're all highly biased Americans.

Tracy Austin, Bud Collins, John McEnroe, and Pam Shriver have all been hired to work numerous times for BBC, the top European broadcasting network. This would not have happened if they were highly biased Americans.

 

[Raiden]

What's Serena vs Henin H2H on clay? 4-1, so based on the data you can equally say Serena at her best would have no chance against Henin at her best.

That is indeed a fact. Henin has in fact beaten Serena when Serena was at her exact peak/miles ahead of almost everyone when she was holding 4 slams:

2003 Charleston F Henin def. Williams 6-3 6-4
2003 French Open SF J. Henin def. Williams 6-2 4-6 7-5​

So then, if one can beat Serena at her absolute all-time peak and double down on that performance, then one have nothing to prove whatsoever (NadalAgassi's fantasy notwithstanding).

Anyways, this thread's a flop since it's premise is entirely built on yesterday's Charleston debacle (Stosur V Serena) which has no bearing on anything that happens from now on cuz unlike in Charleston, Serena will in the coming red clay season NOT have the luxury of facing a 10% capacity player who the prevoius day had played a total amount of six sets within six hours
.

 

[MichaelNadal]

Im a Serena fan, but Henin>Serena when they face each other on clay.

 

[Winners or Errors]

Tracy Austin, Bud Collins, John McEnroe, and Pam Shriver have all been hired to work numerous times for BBC, the top European broadcasting network. This would not have happened if they were highly biased Americans.

How does that prove they're unbiased?

 

[NadalAgassi]

Im a Serena fan, but Henin>Serena when they face each other on clay.

I concede Henin's average level > Serena's average level on clay, even when Serena was at her peak. Hence why Henin won more often, Serena's agressive style is hardest to mantain regularly on a slow surface like clay. However on a day both were playing their very best, do you think Henin would ever win, even on clay? Could Henin cope with the Serena from the Charleston semis or final for instance, even on slower red clay?

 

[Mick]

the way Serena played this week at the Family Circle Cup, IMO only Henin or Clijsters in their best form could hang with her. I don't know who would win. As for Stosur, I knew Stosur would get destroyed, because she had been losing to lesser players ever since the 2011 US Open.

 

[DjokovicForTheWin]

This is a dumb thread, so I can simply say whenever Federer lost to Nadal on clay, he didn't play his best. Despite the actual data!

 

[NadalAgassi]

the way Serena played this week at the Family Circle Cup, IMO only Henin or Clijsters in their best form could hang with her. I don't know who would win. As for Stosur, I knew Stosur would get destroyed, because she had been losing to lesser players ever since the 2011 US Open.

Clijsters on clay? Dont make me laugh. Kim isnt even top 5 on clay amongst current players if all at their best.

 

[Mick]

Clijsters on clay? Dont make me laugh. Kim isnt even top 5 on clay amongst current players if all at their best.

well, don't you think Clijsters would perform better than Stosur and Safarova? I didn't say she would win.

the top current top 4, I don't think they would have a chance with Serena in this week's form. At least Clijsters doesn't fear Serena (of being destroyed by her). I feel the other players do.

 

[boredone3456]

Serena has lost to Katarina Srebotnik, Kuznetsova(Serena was reigning US and Aussie Open Champion and would next win Wimbledon at the time of this loss), and Stosur in her most recent Roland Garros outings and was slaughtered there in 2007 by Henin and yet at her best Henin could not hang with her on clay? Sorry but that is a crazy statement.

 

[2ndServe]

She was way off her game in the other 3 matches.

this is what people think happens. Sure you might be off your game once in a blue moon, not that it matters, it's up to you to bring your par game. But 99.999% it's your opponent who makes you play less than par. Either through forcing the actions or being a wall and making them press for more.

 

[chandler bing]

People always talk about Henin as if she is a far better clay courter than Serena. Which logically she is I suppose as she has 4 French Open titles to Serena's 1 and is 4-1 head to head vs Serena on clay. However Henin is sure lucky she never faced the Serena we saw against Stosur on clay. That version of Serena would spank Henin silly, even on clay.

Coulda, woulda, shoulda.:roll: Four French Open titles versus one says it all, really.

 

[NadalAgassi]

well, don't you think Clijsters would perform better than Stosur and Safarova? I didn't say she would win.

the top current top 4, I don't think they would have a chance with Serena in this week's form. At least Clijsters doesn't fear Serena (of being destroyed by her). I feel the other players do.

Kim is a hard court/carpet player though. Not good on clay or grass.

 

[West Coast Ace]

What's Serena vs Henin H2H on clay? 4-1, so based on the data you can equally say Serena at her best would have no chance against Henin at her best. I mean it's from the data that it was derived Fed at his best would have no chance against Nadal at his best on clay.

You posters who keep bring up facts to put down these children and their theories - what are we going to do with you?

If ifs and buts were candy and nuts, we'd all have a merry Christmas.

Sums it up nicely.

 

[jm1980]

People always talk about Henin as if she is a far better clay courter than Serena. Which logically she is I suppose as she has 4 French Open titles to Serena's 1 and is 4-1 head to head vs Serena on clay. However Henin is sure lucky she never faced the Serena we saw against Stosur on clay. That version of Serena would spank Henin silly, even on clay.

People always talk about Nadal as if he is a far better clay courter than Federer. Which logically he is I suppose as he has 6 French Open titles to Federer's 1 and is 12-2 head to head vs Federer on clay. However Nadal is sure lucky he never faced the Federer we saw against Roddick on clay. That version of Federer would spank Nadal silly, even on clay.

Serena only played reasonably well in 2 of her matches vs Henin on clay. Berlin 2002 where she lost in a 3rd set tiebreak, and Rome 2002 where she won in straight sets. She was way off her game in the other 3 matches.

Federer only played reasonably well in 2 of his matches vs Nadal on clay. Hamburg 2007 where he won the third set with a bagel, and Madrid 2009 where he won in straight sets. He was way off his game in the other 12 matches.

 

[Mustard]

People always talk about Henin as if she is a far better clay courter than Serena. Which logically she is I suppose as she has 4 French Open titles to Serena's 1 and is 4-1 head to head vs Serena on clay. However Henin is sure lucky she never faced the Serena we saw against Stosur on clay. That version of Serena would spank Henin silly, even on clay.

Talk to the hand

 

[single_handed_champion]

Serena at her best = hitting winners every single point. She has VERY rarely played like that. For that matter, you can argue if any player were to play his/her personal best (completely discounting the opponent :lol: ), the opponent would stand no chance, no matter who it was.

Besides, this is green clay, which is basically a hard court with a little slippery dust sprinkled on it.

On the other hand, if she can play like that every time, there is no stopping her (or anyone). She's had lots of blowouts before and then returned to lay nice round eggs on the court.

 

[single_handed_champion]

That is indeed a fact. Henin has in fact beaten Serena when Serena was at her exact peak/miles ahead of almost everyone when she was holding 4 slams:

2003 Charleston F Henin def. Williams 6-3 6-4
2003 French Open SF J. Henin def. Williams 6-2 4-6 7-5​

So then, if one can beat Serena at her absolute all-time peak and double down on that performance, then one have nothing to prove whatsoever (NadalAgassi's fantasy notwithstanding).

Anyways, this thread's a flop since it's premise is entirely built on yesterday's Charleston debacle (Stosur V Serena) which has no bearing on anything that happens from now on cuz unlike in Charleston, Serena will in the coming red clay season NOT have the luxury of facing a 10% capacity player who the prevoius day had played a total amount of six sets within six hours
.

Don't you know that that was CLEARLY not Serena at her peak, never mind that she won 4 Slams in a row? Serena at her peak = thrashing opponents for the loss of at most 1.9 games per match, hitting at least 3 winners in every game and 20+ aces.

 

[big ted]

serena is like 1990 agassi: not very dedicated, kinda showy and flakey, but when theyre on, pretty much unbeatable. the problem is, theyre not always on.

 

[jones101]

Serena has always been good on clay, but had to be at her absolute best to beat Henin on clay. She should/could have won 2 of those matches, but Henin was a monster on the surface.

Henin movement on clay far surpasses Serena's on it and her variety/angles always left Serena off balance.

 

[NadalAgassi]

Unfortunately for Henin she will be remembered as only a great clay courter. She wasnt good on any other surface.

 

[JayChu]

Unfortunately for Henin she will be remembered as only a great clay courter. She wasnt good on any other surface.

She wasn't good on any other surface?

I guess you are right that she was not good on any other surface since she won the majority of her titles on hard courts and that included 1 Australian Open, 2 US Opens (she defeated both Williams sisters for her 2007 title), 1 Olympic Gold Medal and 2 YECs

 

[BigServer1]

Mary Joe Fernandez, Tracy Austin, Chris Evert, Pam Shriver, Bud Collins, Mary Carillo. All have said if Serena and Justine play and Serena plays her best she wins on any surface (which includes clay).

Interesting. A list of American commentators who are all obsessed with Serena said that? NO WAY.

Serena was ridiculous at Family Circle. But it was Family Circle. Sam Stosur? That was her best win last week. Let's not get ahead of ourselves that Serena would dominate Justine on clay. Their h2h on the surface disagrees with your statement.

 

[boredone3456]

Unfortunately for Henin she will be remembered as only a great clay courter. She wasnt good on any other surface.

2 US Opens, 1 additional final
1 Australian Open 2 additional finals
1 Olympic Gold Medal on hardcourts
2 YEC titles
25 overall hardcourt titles ( 4 tier I's including Indian Wells)
275 hardcourt matches won
Undefeated post Wimbledon 2007 (how many of those were clay.victories eh?)
2 Wimbledon finals, should have been 3, 2007 was a disgrace
4 grasscourt titles (considering how short that season is thats not horrible)

Yea...she was just terrible outside of clay...she did not win anything important...oh wait....

 

[NadalAgassi]

Of her most major non clay success:

2003 U.S Open and 2004 Australian Open- Williams sisters were injured and out at the time. This is when they were super dominant and had been in the finals of 5 of the previous 6 slams. Huge asterix. Also look who she beat in the final, Clijsters who was famous for choking in big matches vs Henin.

2007 U.S Open- She beat her pigeon Kuznetsova in the final who she is something like 18-3 lifetime against. Nuff said.

2004 Olympics- This was around the time players still didnt care about the Olympics much. Look at Massu, Fish, and Molik winning gold, silver and bronze medals in singles for instance.

2006 and 2007 WTA Championships- Williams sisters didnt play in either event.


She also never even managed to win Wimbledon and Miami once in her career.

 

[ChiefAce]

People always talk about Henin as if she is a far better clay courter than Serena. Which logically she is I suppose as she has 4 French Open titles to Serena's 1 and is 4-1 head to head vs Serena on clay. However Henin is sure lucky she never faced the Serena we saw against Stosur on clay. That version of Serena would spank Henin silly, even on clay.

Green clay is not red clay, Serena played very well, but you don't say well if Serena was on she would have won. She's "off" far more than she is ever on, nobody plays their best stuff each time they take the court. If you're "off" it just means you're taking gigantic risks in points that probably aren't percentage plays. Serena takes tons of low percentage shots so she will have plenty of "off" days. You can't take those types of risks and expect to be on fire each time, just isn't going to happen. We will see what happens on the red clay though.

 

[NadalAgassi]

Henin is also a humiliating 3-8 vs Clijsters on hard courts, 1-6 vs Venus on non clay surfaces, and 2-7 vs Serena on non clay surfaces. Further proof of her being not a top player on surfaces outside of clay.

 

[boredone3456]

Of her most major non clay success:

2003 U.S Open and 2004 Australian Open- Williams sisters were injured and out at the time. This is when they were super dominant and had been in the finals of 5 of the previous 6 slams. Huge asterix. Also look who she beat in the final, Clijsters who was famous for choking in big matches vs Henin.

2007 U.S Open- She beat her pigeon Kuznetsova in the final who she is something like 18-3 lifetime against. Nuff said.

2004 Olympics- This was around the time players still didnt care about the Olympics much. Look at Massu, Fish, and Molik winning gold, silver and bronze medals in singles for instance.

2006 and 2007 WTA Championships- Williams sisters didnt play in either event.


She also never even managed to win Wimbledon and Miami once in her career.

So in other words any event the Williams sisters do not show up at, play horrible at, miss due to injury, or get beaten at (2007 US Open) do not count? Mmmmm ya ok keep telling yourself that if it makes you feel better. The numbers prove you wrong anyway.

 

[PED]

2007 U.S Open- She beat her pigeon Kuznetsova in the final who she is something like 18-3 lifetime against. Nuff said.

Didn't she beat both Williams sisters en route to the title?

 

[NamRanger]

Of her most major non clay success:

2003 U.S Open and 2004 Australian Open- Williams sisters were injured and out at the time. This is when they were super dominant and had been in the finals of 5 of the previous 6 slams. Huge asterix. Also look who she beat in the final, Clijsters who was famous for choking in big matches vs Henin.

2007 U.S Open- She beat her pigeon Kuznetsova in the final who she is something like 18-3 lifetime against. Nuff said.

2004 Olympics- This was around the time players still didnt care about the Olympics much. Look at Massu, Fish, and Molik winning gold, silver and bronze medals in singles for instance.

2006 and 2007 WTA Championships- Williams sisters didnt play in either event.


She also never even managed to win Wimbledon and Miami once in her career.

She beat both the Williams sisters enroute to the final though. No question about it either, she was just that good this year.