14-16
I think Pete at his best on grass is too good for any version of Becker/Edberg... and give him a younger less experienced Edberg and he could win 1992 USO, 1993 AO. Possibly 15-16 slams for PETE here.
Well Pete is 100% invincible in Wimbledon SF/F, so I don’t think they can beat him imo.Lol, so Becker 85-87 and the Edberg of those times could not challenge him if they were at a different gen ?
R u sure?
Well Pete is 100% invincible in Wimbledon SF/F, so I don’t think they can beat him imo.
Real life Wimbledon matches -> Sampras 3 - 0 Becker
Well Pete is 100% invincible in Wimbledon SF/F, so I don’t think they can beat him imo.
Real life Wimbledon matches -> Sampras 3 - 0 Becker
Becker didn’t decline that much, just faced better players..3-0 where Sampras 71 vs Becker 67
But Sampras 71 vs Becker 76 means aged 17 Becker of 1985 faces Pete in 94 and then in 95 too Edberg would also be there in the mid-late 90s ....
Becker didn’t decline that much, just faced better players..
Becker also had that invincible look at Wimbledon in the eighties. His serve was better in the clutch in those prime years.Well Pete is 100% invincible in Wimbledon SF/F, so I don’t think they can beat him imo.
Real life Wimbledon matches -> Sampras 3 - 0 Becker
Pete was 3-0 against Boris in slams, all at Wimbledon. However, Edberg was 2-0 against Pete in slams (AO and USO). This is a tough question, but Pete's slams go from 14 to about 9. I don't think either would ever beat him at Wimbledon, but everywhere else they'd have their chances.
Basically. I'm seeing something between 7 at the low end to 12 at the top end, probably somewhere in the middle between these, maybe 9-10.I actually cap his total at 12 in this scenario. I mean you're putting both those players firmly in the 90s to mid 00s. At the same time as some mentioned this would make his early 90s load lighter but it comes back to haunt him later on. I definitely think Becker takes at least 1 Wimbledon from his 97-00 period and both are a problem at AO & USO.
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Essentially you're looking at Sampras gaining 2 titles max but potentially losing 6. So I cap it at 12 because the dynamic would have surely been changed.
This is just another attempt at devaluing the accomplishments of a great player. I don't like it when it is done to anyone in these alternate universe scenarios. We can't we just agree that if everything was different the outcomes would have been different and leave it at that without inventing absolute outcomes?
How many Slams would Pete Sampras have won with Becker-Edberg 5 and 4 years younger to him ?
Sampras and Agassi born in 71 and 70.
Assuming Becker was born in 1976 instead of 1967.
Assuming Edberg was born in 1975 instead of 1966
How many Slams now for Pete Sampras?
On the contrary, it seems obvious to me. If you move great players from one generation to a different one, it's going to change the dynamics. If you add two more great players to a different player's competition it's going to make things more difficult for him. Duh.Being born 5 or 8 years later makes a big difference....
Nobody realizes this ....
Even Lendl said that when Sampras arrived then he was serving bigger than anyone till then and 5 years later there were 8 guys serving that way and everyone adapted.
So if Boris is placed 4 years ahead instead of 4 years behind Sampras then things would make a big difference, Pete's entire legacy would be tarnished by Boris and Stefan.
That again would be like placing Novak or Rafa into the Gustavo Kuerten age group which 5-6 years before Federer, imagine what Federer would do to them from 2003 onwards? LOL..... he would eat them for breakfast (assuming Safin hasn't already eaten them).
On the contrary, it seems obvious to me. If you move great players from one generation to a different one, it's going to change the dynamics. If you add two more great players to a different player's competition it's going to make things more difficult for him. Duh.
Also, Pete's legacy wouldn't be "tarnished." He'd just have fewer slams, likely. The same could be said of any great player. If you add another or several great players to their era, they're going to win less. If they're younger than them, then it's possibly even more problematic. It's true for Pete, it's just as true for Becker and Edberg, it's true for Lendl, it's true for Borg, and it's likely true for Federer, Novak and Rafa as well.
This is obviously true, and we should always take into account the strength of field when evaluating the great players. Just saying that a player has X-many Grand Slams does not tell us very much, we need to know which players offered some opposition.On the contrary, it seems obvious to me. If you move great players from one generation to a different one, it's going to change the dynamics. If you add two more great players to a different player's competition it's going to make things more difficult for him. Duh.
Also, Pete's legacy wouldn't be "tarnished." He'd just have fewer slams, likely. The same could be said of any great player. If you add another or several great players to their era, they're going to win less. If they're younger than them, then it's possibly even more problematic. It's true for Pete, it's just as true for Becker and Edberg, it's true for Lendl, it's true for Borg, and it's likely true for Federer, Novak and Rafa as well.
I don't get this kind of thread.
I should start one : If Andre had superior hair genetics instead of that poor wig, would Pete still bully him everytime they met ?
Nice editNone of them.
Nice edit
How many Slams now for Pete Sampras?
OTOH, he would have benefited quite a little bit in 1990-1993, most likely 2 more Slams in that period. You have created a vacuum in the late 1980s and early 1990s by removing Becker and Edberg.I really don't know, but if you put more great players into an era, yeah, the guy/guys at the top is/are going to suffer.
Yet Edberg lead Sampras 2 to 1 in slams.... such an Edberg hater. Edberg always played Sampras tough even towards the end of his career when he was less interested in tennis. Why? He pressured Pete, put him on the defensive, and made him come up with passing shots. If Rafter was still doing well into the early 00s, Edberg would be fine as he was much better player than Rafter.OTOH, he would have benefited quite a little bit in 1990-1993, most likely 2 more Slams in that period. You have created a vacuum in the late 1980s and early 1990s by removing Becker and Edberg.
Meanwhile, if the duo were born in 1975/1976, only young Becker would have troubled Sampras. Edberg wouldn't have been an ATG candidate if his tennis still resembles the real-life Edberg.
I mean, the problem is that reaching deep enough to meet Pete would have been a major problem for 1976-born Edberg - assuming he would still be a serve-and-volleyer.Yet Edberg lead Sampras 2 to 1 in slams.... such an Edberg hater. Edberg always played Sampras tough even towards the end of his career when he was less interested in tennis. Why? He pressured Pete, put him on the defensive, and made him come up with passing shots. If Rafter was still doing well into the early 00s, Edberg would be fine as he was much better player than Rafter.
Now if you want to move Edberg to today, with court conditions and exclusively baseline wars, I agree he would’ve had to change his forehand and stay back much more. Late 90 to early 2000s no problem. Don’t kid yourself.
I mean, the problem is that reaching deep enough to meet Pete would have been a major problem for 1976-born Edberg - assuming he would still be a serve-and-volleyer.
Assume that Edberg is born in 1975 or 1976 in this scenario - and his style is still serve-and-volley without a big serve. He would enter the Tour in 1995-1996. Here would be some background trends:
- Two-handers and baseliners were rapidly taking over the tour during 1998-2004. 2003 was the last year a serve-and-volleyer made a Slam Final. 2004 was the beginning of the Federer onslaught.
- We all know how well Edberg fared against two-handers and big hitters.
- Serve-and-volleyers were no longer able to reach deep in Australian Open after 1997. 2000 was abnormal (Pete reached SF) because the surface was crazy fast, but Agassi was too zoning that event.
- Forget about French Open.
- No more than 2 serve-and-volleyers were able to qualify for Year-end Tour Final every year between 1997 and 2003. In 1999 and 2000 it was essentially Pete Sampras vs 7 baseliners. Btw, by 1999, the surface had already been converted from carpet to hard.
- Wimbledon by that time was already firmly dominated by big servers. Sampras was still unbeatable there in 1997-1999.
- And here is the biggest obstacle for this hypothetical Edberg: The OP also inserted a hypothetical 1976-born Becker into the scenario as well. As lopsided as the Edberg-Becker rivalry was for Stefan, such a rivalry with 1990s racquet tech would be even worse.
Conclusion:
His window of opportunity would be between 1997 and 2003. Specific opportunities would include US Open 1997-1999, Australian Open 1999 and 2002 (if the draw is favourable), Wimbledon 2000-2003. Of course he could not win all of them. By 2004, the transition of tennis away from serve-and-volley is complete, and also, the Federer onslaught begins.
He could win 2-4 Slams and end up like Rafter, Courier or Wawrinka.
Pete with fewer slams to his name would have been more motivated in 1999-2002 years so eh, I'd say still 14. He's the King of Swing for a reason.
Thing is, by 2002, Sampras' Slam count was already a record and somewhat of an outlier - at least compared to his generation as well as the Edberg/Becker one, with his nearest rival Agassi far behind with no chance to catch up. Federer, OTOH, has at least Nadal (who also already had double-digit Slams when Fed won his 7th Wimbledon).Everybody is motivated to win against youngsters, even Federer was enough motivated in the 2010s but he simply could not beat Djokodal outside Grass. Maybe if Federer had changed his racquet he would have competed harder nd maybe stole some slams but then motivation was never an issue.
Borg also retired due to mental/motivational issues.
Your argument fails flat when you also had Becker born on 1976. Both would have won 3-4 and gone down in history as Courier-tier players.LOL, Edberg was definitely miles ahead of Rafter and how can he end up in the same league when placed in a zone of comfort with ageing ATGs above him?
At the AO - Edberg won the Aus open at 19 and 21 (AO was not held when Edberg was 20), plus after the AO shifted from Grass to RA he still made 3 finals there and multiple semis too, a guy like that would have won 3-4 AOs if placed at 1975/76 with a 5-6 years lead over Agassi who himself won 4 AOs in his career.
At the FO - 0 titles, I agree, no chance.
At Wimbledon -Sampras would still be dominant but that doesn't mean Edberg cannot win 1 or 2 Wimbledons reducing Pete's 7 to 5 or 6. Ivan Lendl himself said that Sampras served hardest to anyone before him when he arrived but after 5 years the field started serving big like him and adapted. ......So a 5 years younger Edberg would also be automatically serving bigger....... he could win 1 or 2 wimbledon ...... R u saying an ATG SNV specialist from Sampras's next generation cannot take away at least 1 wimbledon ??? Even Goran won 1 wimbledon, Rafter had his chances, Edberg is too good to not win 1 or maybe even 2.
At the USO - He has 2 USOs in 91-92, obvious born 9 years later his chances would automatically improve in the late 90s and maybe in the early 00s he might suffer due to youngsters like Safin-Hewitt-Roddick but then if Sampras-Agassi could play a final in 02 then he could at least have 1-2 USOs considering even Rafter has 2 USOs.
So thats 3-4 AOs + 1-2 WImbledons + 2 USOs = 6-8 Slams for him.
He would still win the same number of slams.
These guys were teenage prodigies who won slams before 20, such fellows don't end up with 3-4 slams in any era, they would win 6-7 everywhere in every era.Your argument fails flat when you also had Becker born on 1976. Both would have won 3-4 and gone down in history as Courier-tier players.
Edberg should’ve won the 89 FO Open final against a zoning Chang and the Aussie Open final where he was beating Lendl and he had to retire with an abdominal injury... he should’ve won more, not less! He is a far more accomplished player than Rafter, quicker, much better returns, better backhand. If Rafter could still be winning in the late 90s and early 00s Edberg could too. @NedStark is a hater..... but he is entitled to his wrong opinionsThese guys were teenage prodigies who won slams before 20, such fellows don't end up with 3-4 slams in any era, they would win 6-7 everywhere in every era.
Sampras and Agassi born in 71 and 70.
Assuming Becker was born in 1976 instead of 1967.
Assuming Edberg was born in 1975 instead of 1966
How many Slams now for Pete Sampras?
These guys were teenage prodigies who won slams before 20, such fellows don't end up with 3-4 slams in any era, they would win 6-7 everywhere in every era.
Edberg would only have 7 years at most, from 1997 to 2003. Becker, OTOH, could remain relevant until 2006. In those years, you would have to subtract:Edberg should’ve won the 89 FO Open final against a zoning Chang and the Aussie Open final where he was beating Lendl and he had to retire with an abdominal injury... he should’ve won more, not less! He is a far more accomplished player than Rafter, quicker, much better returns, better backhand. If Rafter could still be winning in the late 90s and early 00s Edberg could too. @NedStark is a hater..... but he is entitled to his wrong opinions