How much is a slam win worth compared to a year-end ATP Final win?

How much is 1 slam win worth compared to Year-End Championship wins?


  • Total voters
    65

zvelf

Hall of Fame
How much are slams worth compared to the Year-End Championships? Before Federer fans say YEC are worth a whole lot and Nadal fans say they are worthless, let’s look at it in several ways.

We know what the ATP and WTA think they are worth: 1,500 points for a YEC compared to 2,000 points for a major. So a slam is worth 1.333 more times than a YEC.

By reputation, many say a slam is worth significantly more than a YEC. Would you rather win 1 slam than 2 YECs? 3 YECs? 4 YECs? Until recently, YECs usually paid more than slam wins. Now they are roughly equivalent for the ATP and less for the WTA. So for the sake of argument, let’s say, the pay is equivalent. Then the question becomes, for example, would you rather win 1 slam with a $2.5 million award or 3 YECs with $7.5 million in awards? Is reputation worth losing out on $5 million? This one is the most subjective.

Another way to measure them is difficulty level. How hard it is to win a slam and how hard it is to win a YEC should factor into their value. I took a list of 15 ATG or near-ATG (Agassi, Becker, Borg, Connors, Courier, Djokovic, Edberg, Federer, Lendl, McEnroe, Murray, Nadal, Sampras, Vilas, Wilander) and looked at how they performed. These players are a combined 149 slam titles out of 802 attempts/slams-played for a 18.6% success rate. They are a combined 34 wins for 149 attempts in YECs for a 22.8% success rate. That would imply the difficulty to win a slam is only a little harder with a slam being worth 1.23 times more than a YEC.

What other methodologies do you think should be used for such a calculation? Which methodology do you prefer or do you combine them?
 

DIMI_D

Hall of Fame
5 masters = 1 schlem!!
In all seriousness slams are in a league of their own no substitute even if Zod won 3 more he would not be greater than say rafter with 2 schlems…
 

Thriller

Hall of Fame
On GPPD the YEC is worth a slam when discussing Nadal and a worthless exhibition when discussing nextgen. It's the Schrödinger slam.
 

DSH

Talk Tennis Guru
Well, although the monetary incentive may be similar, human emotions do not lie and it is predictable in which of these two tournament categories (very different from each other) the players feel more happiness, euphoria, ecstasy, when they win, than sadness, depression, bitterness, when they lose.
There are certain things money can't buy, for everything else there is MasterCard.
:cool::giggle:
 

Nadal - GOAT

Hall of Fame
How much are slams worth compared to the Year-End Championships? Before Federer fans say YEC are worth a whole lot and Nadal fans say they are worthless, let’s look at it in several ways.

We know what the ATP and WTA think they are worth: 1,500 points for a YEC compared to 2,000 points for a major. So a slam is worth 1.333 more times than a YEC.

By reputation, many say a slam is worth significantly more than a YEC. Would you rather win 1 slam than 2 YECs? 3 YECs? 4 YECs? Until recently, YECs usually paid more than slam wins. Now they are roughly equivalent for the ATP and less for the WTA. So for the sake of argument, let’s say, the pay is equivalent. Then the question becomes, for example, would you rather win 1 slam with a $2.5 million award or 3 YECs with $7.5 million in awards? Is reputation worth losing out on $5 million? This one is the most subjective.

Another way to measure them is difficulty level. How hard it is to win a slam and how hard it is to win a YEC should factor into their value. I took a list of 15 ATG or near-ATG (Agassi, Becker, Borg, Connors, Courier, Djokovic, Edberg, Federer, Lendl, McEnroe, Murray, Nadal, Sampras, Vilas, Wilander) and looked at how they performed. These players are a combined 149 slam titles out of 802 attempts/slams-played for a 18.6% success rate. They are a combined 34 wins for 149 attempts in YECs for a 22.8% success rate. That would imply the difficulty to win a slam is only a little harder with a slam being worth 1.23 times more than a YEC.

What other methodologies do you think should be used for such a calculation? Which methodology do you prefer or do you combine them?
The biggest issue I see with YEC is that it is played amongst the top 8 players which may not be the best 8 indoor players from the given field.

There could be some clay courters who raked up lot of points and are very average on indoor courts (Ruud). Also it fails to take into account recent form. A player could have accumulated lot of points in the 1st half of the year but been in terrible form in the 2nd half.

In a slam the field of 128 definitely covers all the best players and in form players. I just don't think YEC are comparable to slams at all. I am sure no top player would sacrifice a single slam for even 5 YEC's.
 

Winner

Professional
ATP Finals are a travesty. It's a one week tournament. Every winner has a week draw. What a joke of a tourney.
 

brewpats

New User
What other methodologies do you think should be used for such a calculation?
How many matches are needed to win each? 7 for a slam, 5 for the final maybe? Also you can lose a final round robin match and still advance, no? Also other than die hard tennis fans who ever hears or thinks about who won the ATP Finals? To me it's at least 4:1 and maybe more like 10:1. Would people even remember Michael Chang at all if he won the ATP Finals instead of the FO?
 

Winner

Professional
Grigor Dimitrov is constantly mocked as a lost gen player.

Zverev is constantly mocked as NextGen mug.

They've won three ATP finals.

I guess that proves ATP finals are incomparable to schlems...

If Dimitrov won a slam and Zverev would already have two hardcourt slams defeating Djokovic for both of them they wouldn't be mocked...
 

Cortana

Legend
Beating 5 Top8 players in a row? Pretty massive achievement. Only Federer and Djokovic managed to do it. Maybe even Zverev and Med, I don't remember.

I would say 1 GS = 3 WTF = 6 Masters.
 

NonP

Legend
The real Big 3 (Jimbo/Borg/Mac)'s YECs = de facto majors
Ivan's, Stefan's, Dre's and Stich's = ditto
Boris' 3 = at least 15 Slams
Pistol's 5 = at least 500
Guga's 1 = 2 (for real)
Fred's 6 = about 0.06
Djoker's 5 = 10
Muzz's 1 = 3
Bull's... oh right, One-Trick Pony never won it so - 10
The rest = who gives a f*ck?!

Ergo Pistol >>>>>>>>>>>>> Novak > Boris > Fred >>>> Bull. And Murray is in fact an ATG (unless U jokers have changed goalposts again).

You're welcome.
 

Aussie Darcy

Bionic Poster
Dimitrov won his WTF by beating:
Carreño Busta
Thiem (way before he made a slam final)
Goffin
Sock in the SF
And then Goffin again in the final.

You can’t even compare that to a slam because they’re at least B05. This was B03 against the most embarrassing lineup. How can you compare that to slam? Not even 5 slams get close to that.
 

The Blond Blur

G.O.A.T.
A schlem is worth
giphy.gif

than any of the poll options, bud.
 

Third Serve

Talk Tennis Guru
Dimitrov won his WTF by beating:
Carreño Busta
Thiem (way before he made a slam final)
Goffin
Sock in the SF
And then Goffin again in the final.

You can’t even compare that to a slam because they’re at least B05. This was B03 against the most embarrassing lineup. How can you compare that to slam? Not even 5 slams get close to that.
to be fair that was a massive outlier of a tournament
 

juanparty

Hall of Fame
Indoor tennis is boring, and for example, djokovic doesn't care about that tournament.
 
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NonP

Legend
It's an important tournament but it's not a Slam no matter how many of it you win.

The YEC was in fact a de facto major in not-so-old eras. Check out this (admittedly arguable) list put together by @SgtJohn:


Notice how he gave the YEC at least half-Slam status till '89. It was unquestionably one of the 4 biggest events for about a decade and even the other years are arguable, with such classics as the '88 and '96 editions. And I ain't bluffing when I say Guga deserves extra points for what was likely the single clutchest performance in YEC history:


To moi recognizing/factoring in these achievements is more important than how to count 'em. Relying on a single metric to compare eras is always a fool's game.

It's on the ATP. They have allowed the complete and utter erosion in status of its tournaments and Year End finale.

Yeah VB ain't being completely crazy when they say the YEC has lost its luster. Of course they hammer home this talking point to detract from their boy's Pistolesque indoor resume, but we grown-ups should be able to acknowledge a valid point even when it's made in bad faith.

And I hate what they've done to the DC, too. If this is how the post-USO season is gonna be the ATP/ITF should just scrap the YEC altogether (along with the so-called ATP Cup) and hold the DC at the year-end in full World Cup style so it'd serve as THE season finale. That way you kill 2 birds w/1 stone by revitalizing both the indoor season and the sport's premier team tournament.

Depends on whether you consider tennis an indoor or outdoor sport.

Pretty sure tennis has always been played indoors from its very inception.
 

Russeljones

Talk Tennis Guru
Yeah VB ain't being completely crazy when they say the YEC has lost its luster. Of course they hammer home this talking point to detract from their boy's Pistolesque indoor resume, but we grown-ups should be able to acknowledge a valid point even when it's made in bad faith.

And I hate what they've done to the DC, too. If this is how the post-USO season is gonna be the ATP/ITF should just scrap the YEC altogether (along with the so-called ATP Cup) and adopt a full World Cup-style format for the DC so it'd serve as THE season finale. That way you kill 2 birds w/1 stone by revitalizing both the indoor season and the sport's premier team tournament.
Something needs to be done soon or they will end up having to resort to fines just to keep marquee players from skipping everything non-slam.
 

zvelf

Hall of Fame
The biggest issue I see with YEC is that it is played amongst the top 8 players which may not be the best 8 indoor players from the given field.

There could be some clay courters who raked up lot of points and are very average on indoor courts (Ruud). Also it fails to take into account recent form. A player could have accumulated lot of points in the 1st half of the year but been in terrible form in the 2nd half.

In a slam the field of 128 definitely covers all the best players and in form players. I just don't think YEC are comparable to slams at all. I am sure no top player would sacrifice a single slam for even 5 YEC's.

Spoken like a true Nadal fan. :D Of course, sometimes in-form players coming into slams also lose early in slams; history is replete with massive upsets. Some players come into the YEC playing lackluster and win it like Zverev in 2018.

Grigor Dimitrov is constantly mocked as a lost gen player.

Zverev is constantly mocked as NextGen mug.

They've won three ATP finals.

I guess that proves ATP finals are incomparable to schlems...

If Dimitrov won a slam and Zverev would already have two hardcourt slams defeating Djokovic for both of them they wouldn't be mocked...

If the value of YECs are based on who has won it, then should slams be devalued because slam winners include Albert Costa, Gaston Gaudio, Brian Teacher, Thomas Johansson, and Mark Edmonson? Zverev is a better player than all of them on average.

It's an important tournament but it's not a Slam no matter how many of it you win.

You know slams weren't nearly as valued at one point, right? So much so that the Australian and to a lesser extent, the French were considered skippable. So for you, 1 slam should be valued more than 10 YEC wins? Difficulty of achievement is not a factor for you at all? So does Thomas Johansson's 1 major make him a better or greater player than every player who has never won a slam?

Dimitrov won his WTF by beating:
Carreño Busta
Thiem (way before he made a slam final)
Goffin
Sock in the SF
And then Goffin again in the final.

You can’t even compare that to a slam because they’re at least B05. This was B03 against the most embarrassing lineup. How can you compare that to slam? Not even 5 slams get close to that.

It's easy to take the worst-case scenario and represent it as if it were typical, but it's not. Nadal didn't beat a single top 25 player to win the 2017 U.S. Open. Does that mean that slam doesn't count? Sampras beat Edberg, Ivanisevic, Agassi, and Becker to win the 1994 YEC. Does that mean Sampras 1994 YEC >>> Nada's 2017 USO?

No tournament in which you can lose a match and still be crowned a champion can ever be compare to a slam (Davis Cup, WTF etc)

And yet, you still have to perform better than the other top 8 players in the world who are bound by the exact same rules. In some slams, the winner faces a single top 8 player or no top 8 players at all.
 
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Leandro2045

Semi-Pro
No tournament where you can win without even playing a top 25 player can ever be compared to the YEC 8-B

If they are not injured all top players join and competed in all Slams.

If you don't face a Top 25 seed in route to a Slam title it's not your problem, the Top 25 seeds you were projected to meet in the R4, QF's, SF's & Final simply lost to non-seed opponents. They simply weren't good enough to reach you that week.

They were there though, when Nadal won the 2017 US Open his projected path was :

R4 : Berdych (15)
QF : Dimitrov (7) / Goffin (9)
SF : Federer (3)

It's not Nadal's problem all these guys weren't good enough to beat the guys Nadal then beat off.
 
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brewpats

New User
In some slams, the winner faces a single top 8 player or no top 8 players at all.
Other than the big 3 how much better are the top eight than the top 16 players? Nole is about to be on the verge of not being a top 8 player. And Kyrgios is what 49 or something?
 

Winner

Professional
If the value of YECs are based on who has won it, then should slams be devalued because slam winners include Albert Costa, Gaston Gaudio, Brian Teacher, Thomas Johansson, and Mark Edmonson? Zverev is a better player than all of them on average.

Oh, I think we have misunderstood each other.

My point was that people are saying ATP finals is a huge tournament and are mocking winners of this tournament at the same time. That makes no sense.

And the fact they are mocking winners of ATP finals as mugs shows they don't think of ATP finals as a huge tournament.
 

Leandro2045

Semi-Pro
And yet, you still have to perform better than the other top 8 players in the world who are bound by the exact same rules. In some slams, the winner faces a single top 8 player or no top 8 players at all.

In every single Slam the 1st seed is projected to meet at the very least 3 Top 8 players.

If seeds don't meet it's because they weren't good enough to even meet, that's the reality.
 
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