how to overcome Net poachers in doubles

[tossitright]

Service return is one of the weakest part of my doubles game, so I usually return cross court to increase my percentage play.
however, my return is very predictable and the net man would always run across even before I hit the ball and he would poach my return and volley it off for a winner.
I also do not have a reliable lob and it is very demoralizing for me and my partner whenever i return with a lob around the service line for the opponent to hit a winner.

Question: do you think it is possible for me to hit a service return very late so I have more time to decide what to do with it AFTER i observe where the net man is going? will it impact my ability to hit a clean return since now my focus is on the net man instead of the ball coming towards me from the server? has anyone tried it with success?

what would you do when you are playing with your regular players week in, week out and they know your game but you need to outsmart them so they don't win easy points off your service returns?

 

[chic]

Good poachers usually win the timing battle of "who can wait longer".

You have to learn to return even more cross court so they can't reach it in time (if they're only getting to mid net for the poach)

And

Down the line (if they're leaving early and can get all the way).

They still get to move after you, but if they're overpoaching they'll usually stop if you burn them down the line a couple times.



Another option is getting good at bunting lobs on the return. Below 5.0 I don't think I've seen many people good enough at overheads to consistently position and hit the overhead in time. A lot of guys who love to poach won't even back off the net to catch you if you love short.
EDIT: I missed you saying people were hitting winners off the lobs around the baseline. This seems like it has to be an error on the next shot / positioning. Most players aren't railing winners on a lob that makes it all the way to the baseline. If they are you/your partner probably need to be moving to different places on reaction the your lob.

 

[tossitright]

Good poachers usually win the timing battle of "who can wait longer".

You have to learn to return even more cross court so they can't reach it in time (if they're only getting to mid net for the poach)

And

Down the line (if they're leaving early and can get all the way).

They still get to move after you, but if they're overpoaching they'll usually stop if you burn them down the line a couple times.



Another option is getting good at bunting lobs on the return. Below 5.0 I don't think I've seen many people good enough at overheads to consistently position and hit the overhead in time. A lot of guys who love to poach won't even back off the net to catch you if you love short.
EDIT: I missed you saying people were hitting winners off the lobs around the baseline. This seems like it has to be an error on the next shot / positioning. Most players aren't railing winners on a lob that makes it all the way to the baseline. If they are you/your partner probably need to be moving to different places on reaction the your lob.

Thanks Chic for the tips.

I am lousy with my lobs too, my lobs are usually end around the service line which makes it easy for the opponent to finish off.

for me, my habit is that i already decide where to hit my returns before I even step up to return the ball. Be it my forehand or backhand, I will place my return to the position where I have decided beforehand.

do you think i should change this habit and be more spontaneous on my returns, and "go with the flow" depending on the opponent's net man play at each point?

 

[chic]

Thanks Chic for the tips.

I am lousy with my lobs too, my lobs are usually end around the service line which makes it easy for the opponent to finish off.

for me, my habit is that i already decide where to hit my returns before I even step up to return the ball. Be it my forehand or backhand, I will place my return to the position where I have decided beforehand.

do you think i should change this habit and be more spontaneous on my returns, and "go with the flow" depending on the opponent's net man play at each point?

No, this is actually the proper mentality. Otherwise you'll get caught being indecisive, especially with faster serves.

Decide ahead of time. But also track what the net man's tendency is. If he's poaching a lot then switch it up and decide backhands are going down the line and forehands are getting lobbed or something. Once you burn him once or twice go back to your normal cc and see what he does. If he continues to poach mix in more shots that'll cover that option etc etc etc

 

[tossitright]

No, this is actually the proper mentality. Otherwise you'll get caught being indecisive, especially with faster serves.

Decide ahead of time. But also track what the net man's tendency is. If he's poaching a lot then switch it up and decide backhands are going down the line and forehands are getting lobbed or something. Once you burn him once or twice go back to your normal cc and see what he does. If he continues to poach mix in more shots that'll cover that option etc etc etc

thanks Chic. It did not cross my mind that I should switch it up even on my forehand and backhand returns... that is why tennis doubles is so dynamic and interesting. I play with three other regular players and I am the weakest of the four. So I need to use my brains more to level the playing field.

 

[LOBALOT]

Did someone say lobs????

Seriously, I find I can't over-focus on the net man. If I do so it leads to errors and hesitant play/shots which lead to even more successful poaching by your opponent. Be decisive!

If you find you are not being decisive (you will know), it is almost better to determine where you are going to hit the ball before the serve and hit it with authority and as the other poster indicated with more angle. You can also determine to go down the line aggressively as well. In my mind the key is being aggressive as that is the name of the game in dubs.

I of course do lob as well so I would work on that. Personally I find it easier to lob the return with my backhand especially if I am returning in the ad court. You may want to practice that shot with your partner where he is on the other side of the net just inside the service box hitting (initially) second serves at you and you in turn lob return into the corners.

 

[tossitright]

Did someone say lobs????

Seriously, I find I can't over-focus on the net man. If I do so it leads to errors and hesitant play/shots which lead to even more successful poaching by your opponent. Be decisive!

If you find you are not being decisive (you will know), it is almost better to determine where you are going to hit the ball before the serve and hit it with authority and as the other poster indicated with more angle. You can also determine to go down the line aggressively as well. In my mind the key is being aggressive as that is the name of the game in dubs.

I of course do lob as well so I would work on that. Personally I find it easier to lob the return with my backhand especially if I am returning in the ad court. You may want to practice that shot with your partner where he is on the other side of the net just inside the service box hitting (initially) second serves at you and you in turn lob return into the corners.

Good advice on being decisive. for doubles play, do you think it is good etiquette to ask your partner to stand behind more, as a defensive measure to compensate for my weak return and then play the point from there? it will mean that he will not be in a comfortable starting position and we started the point on a defensive note. and transitioning to the net will expose him to dipping shots at his feet and half volleys.

 

[chic]

thanks Chic. It did not cross my mind that I should switch it up even on my forehand and backhand returns... that is why tennis doubles is so dynamic and interesting. I play with three other regular players and I am the weakest of the four. So I need to use my brains more to level the playing field.

Depends on your strokes and the serve as well. Big servers (110+) mean less time to react. I don't always have time to turn both directions from neutral. So I'll hedge toward my forehand and bunt the backhand. (It is very very very rare I run into this issue at my level. Was more common when my footwork was worse.)

It can give you the opportunity to really close up on the backhand and position yourself to hit down the line (without turning it to a low % shot), since you're not worried about prepping for a full stroke on the forehand. You just concede that if they guess forehand side then you're gonna have little aggression.

 

[LOBALOT]

Good advice on being decisive. for doubles play, do you think it is good etiquette to ask your partner to stand behind more, as a defensive measure to compensate for my weak return and then play the point from there? it will mean that he will not be in a comfortable starting position and we started the point on a defensive note. and transitioning to the net will expose him to dipping shots at his feet and half volleys.

No no, this is not during the match. This is practice. Think singles...

Have your partner stand on the other side of the net and hit you servers while you practice the lob return.

 

[Topspin Shot]

If the guy's poaching and you can't consistently avoid him, then go at him. There's nothing wrong with giving him a volley, the problem is only when you give him an easy volley.

 

[ptuanminh]

maybe 97% of my service returns are cross-court. you think its predictable? I only get poached 1 or 2 times a set. its not that easy to poach a cc return that is going away from you.

 

[RyanRF]

You've got a couple of options here:

• Wait a little before deciding your return direction. If you can see them moving for a poach, go the other way. Of course this can be difficult to watch the net guy and then refocus on your shot. It's also possible that the net guy will start to fake poach, which can distract you
• Instead of playing the left-right game, play the up-back game. If the net guy is really close to the net, hit a lob. It usually doesn't have to be the best lob as long as you can get it over their backhand side. Few players can hit a good shot off of a lob to their backhand
• If the net guy is further back, try hitting to his feet. Focus on low over the net, and with plenty of spin.
• As a last resort, just YOLO blast it straight at him. Most likely you'll make an error, but you're losing anyways so who cares. After doing this a few times in a row the net guy will stop poaching because he'll be more focused on protecting his own face from your wild shots. That's when you can switch it up and make an easy cross-court return

Also if you haven't already, you should suggest that your partner play two-back. This will at least give you some chance when your returns get volleyed.

 

[tossitright]

If the guy's poaching and you can't consistently avoid him, then go at him. There's nothing wrong with giving him a volley, the problem is only when you give him an easy volley.

as we are all tennis buddies and have been playing regularly for years, it is bad friendship for me to do that. I am only irritated at myself for making him look good at the net with such easy volleys.

 

[tossitright]

You've got a couple of options here:

• Wait a little before deciding your return direction. If you can see them moving for a poach, go the other way. Of course this can be difficult to watch the net guy and then refocus on your shot. It's also possible that the net guy will start to fake poach, which can distract you
• Instead of playing the left-right game, play the up-back game. If the net guy is really close to the net, hit a lob. It usually doesn't have to be the best lob as long as you can get it over their backhand side. Few players can hit a good shot off of a lob to their backhand
• If the net guy is further back, try hitting to his feet. Focus on low over the net, and with plenty of spin.
• As a last resort, just YOLO blast it straight at him. Most likely you'll make an error, but you're losing anyways so who cares. After doing this a few times in a row the net guy will stop poaching because he'll be more focused on protecting his own face from your wild shots. That's when you can switch it up and make an easy cross-court return

Also if you haven't already, you should suggest that your partner play two-back. This will at least give you some chance when your returns get volleyed.

Thanks Ryan. I am very keen to play two-back to neutralize the net man poaching. but it will also mean that I am imposing on my partner and disrupt his usual doubles positioning and exposing him to tougher shots while he is transitioning to the net from the two-back position after the opponent net man's shot has been neutralized. Do you think this is good doubles etiquette as I also want him to enjoy the game as I do.

 

[2nd Serve Ace]

Hi OP. Are you LH or RH? Is FH or BH your better side? Which court side do you play normally in dubs?

 

[tossitright]

Hi OP. Are you LH or RH? Is FH or BH your better side? Which court side do you play normally in dubs?

I am a LH playing ad-court. FH is better for me.

 

[travlerajm]

I find the best way to deal with a poacher is to hit the return as early as possible. It’s usually more effective to use an abbreviated compact bunty shot blocked from near the service line than to try to take a full cut from behind the baseline. If you take it early, it keeps the poacher more honest.

 

[Topspin Shot]

as we are all tennis buddies and have been playing regularly for years, it is bad friendship for me to do that. I am only irritated at myself for making him look good at the net with such easy volleys.

Bad friendship to hit a return at him? It's a return, not a smash. He isn't going to get hurt. And by poaching, he's trying to get in the way of the ball.

 

[2nd Serve Ace]

I am a LH playing ad-court. FH is better for me.

Ok, like a slice either FH or BH is usually the easiest to disguise. Would suggest that.

 

[chic]

Good advice on being decisive. for doubles play, do you think it is good etiquette to ask your partner to stand behind more, as a defensive measure to compensate for my weak return and then play the point from there? it will mean that he will not be in a comfortable starting position and we started the point on a defensive note. and transitioning to the net will expose him to dipping shots at his feet and half volleys.

Asking players to play different positions is kind of a mixed bag. Technically if the netman is getting the lob and putting it back at your partner, your partner is then responsible for making a play on it. But if you're just feeding it and it's getting put away 2 back may not help if they can just angle it away.

It sounds like you play with the same guys a lot and I think a good compromise might be to say:
"hey man I'm working on mixing up my returns while staying consistent. Would you mind playing 2 back for a couple sets to take the pressure off me while I try it out?"

That way it's acknowledged that it's a temporary thing which prevents you from getting comfortable forcing your partner to move back. But also saves them some possible frustration because they know there's an expiration date on playing two back and when you inevitably miss some of the shots that are newer patterns to you.

 

[Dartagnan64]

what would you do when you are playing with your regular players week in, week out and they know your game but you need to outsmart them so they don't win easy points off your service returns?

The only thing you can do is be unpredictable. I play with a group of guys and we all know each other well. Everyone has developed a variety of returns because they know that can't just keep hitting crosscourt or they will get eaten alive by the net person.

So learn to lob DTL and CC and hit stronger returns DTL and CC. Then mix it up. It helps if you plan it in advance of the serve. I'll usually pre-plan my return options. For instance I'll tell myself, "If he hits out wide this serve, I'll take it DTL. If he serves down the T, I'll lob it CC." That way i'm already committed to something and I don't have to make a decision at the last second and screw it up.

If you are unpredictable and get a few easy points by going DTL or over the net guy, he'll be less inclined to poach aggressively when you do pull out the CC return.

 

[chic]

The only thing you can do is be unpredictable.

The other thing you can do is get better. Being unpredictable is good and making rapid improvement isn't something most people are going for. But a little time spent practicing outside your groups match play can go a long way in getting you better. Even if it's only like an hour (total) a week.

 

[tossitright]

I find the best way to deal with a poacher is to hit the return as early as possible. It’s usually more effective to use an abbreviated compact bunty shot blocked from near the service line than to try to take a full cut from behind the baseline. If you take it early, it keeps the poacher more honest.

Thanks for this great tip. I will take it early and take the time away from the poacher. I will stand one step inside the baseline nearer to the service line to do that.
BTW, if i intend to lob, i will usually take it later as i find it easier to lob after the ball reaches its peak and is on its way down versus lobbing it while it is on the rise. for that, i might telegraph my intention to the netman. He might be able to read from my positioning and know what i intend to do on my return.
In addition, lobbing while the ball is on the rise is a challenge for me as I need enough height clearance on my lob to avoid the netman, and because I would be standing at the no man's land during my service return, it makes it tougher for me to execute this shot.

Do you think my lob technique has a problem?

 

[tossitright]

Asking players to play different positions is kind of a mixed bag. Technically if the netman is getting the lob and putting it back at your partner, your partner is then responsible for making a play on it. But if you're just feeding it and it's getting put away 2 back may not help if they can just angle it away.

It sounds like you play with the same guys a lot and I think a good compromise might be to say:
"hey man I'm working on mixing up my returns while staying consistent. Would you mind playing 2 back for a couple sets to take the pressure off me while I try it out?"

That way it's acknowledged that it's a temporary thing which prevents you from getting comfortable forcing your partner to move back. But also saves them some possible frustration because they know there's an expiration date on playing two back and when you inevitably miss some of the shots that are newer patterns to you.

that is great advice Chic. yes we play every week, just the four of us and we do rotate partners between the four of us after each set. Per your advice, at least the intent is clear and we are trying different tactics to mix it up, and hope for a more balanced set. And I will not end up to be the guy that everyone dreads partnering, since we just want to enjoy the game and at the same time, do our utmost to win.

 

[tossitright]

The other thing you can do is get better. Being unpredictable is good and making rapid improvement isn't something most people are going for. But a little time spent practicing outside your groups match play can go a long way in getting you better. Even if it's only like an hour (total) a week.

Yes, I agree that my service return is weak and need to be more aggressive with it. It is also a confidence thing whereby if I know that it is a liability, I will try to workaround it by doing other easier things instead of taking the bull by the horns and improve my service returns.

how does one practice service returns?

 

[tossitright]

The only thing you can do is be unpredictable. I play with a group of guys and we all know each other well. Everyone has developed a variety of returns because they know that can't just keep hitting crosscourt or they will get eaten alive by the net person.

So learn to lob DTL and CC and hit stronger returns DTL and CC. Then mix it up. It helps if you plan it in advance of the serve. I'll usually pre-plan my return options. For instance I'll tell myself, "If he hits out wide this serve, I'll take it DTL. If he serves down the T, I'll lob it CC." That way i'm already committed to something and I don't have to make a decision at the last second and screw it up.

If you are unpredictable and get a few easy points by going DTL or over the net guy, he'll be less inclined to poach aggressively when you do pull out the CC return.

thanks, i play once a week with them and it is really fun to reminisce about the game I played during the week, to think of how to do it differently. I will then look forward to the next game night to execute it. I will try out your suggestions and hope to use my brains more to increase my odds.

 

[chic]

thanks, i play once a week with them and it is really fun to reminisce about the game I played during the week, to think of how to do it differently. I will then look forward to the next game night to execute it. I will try out your suggestions and hope to use my brains more to increase my odds.

Not that anyone is obligated to want to play extra. But if you really wanna work on these things, I'd suggest on seeing if any of the guys you hit with would go out 10-15 min early or stay 10-15 after. Have them hit you some serves and just work on returns to different locations.

(An easier way if they don't wanna serve is have them serve easy serves from their service box line. They can serve less pace but you have lower reaction time so it's a good simulation)

 

[Dartagnan64]

thanks, i play once a week with them and it is really fun to reminisce about the game I played during the week, to think of how to do it differently. I will then look forward to the next game night to execute it. I will try out your suggestions and hope to use my brains more to increase my odds.

You have to look at returner vs. net man as a game of cat and mouse. Both players are trying to get into the other's head. When I'm a net person, I'm trying to goad the returner to hit where I want him to (at me usually). When I'm returner I'm trying to keep the net guy from getting easy points off CC returns.
So you plan your shots and movement around those principals.

SimilarlyI view my role as server as trying to set up my net partner for an easy putaway. So going at the opponents weaker returning side, getting balls more down the T are my usual serving strategies.

You can play doubles and not think, but in the end, doubles is mostly a game of position and angles and brains. You don't have to have much more than a good serve and decent hands to play doubles competitively if you can think your way through a match.