How would you rank the form of Novak's Opponents In Wimbledon Finals?

H

Herald

Guest
Imperator said:
Did you seriously put 2018 Anderson above 2019 Federer ?
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I hear that 2019 Federer is the weakest ever Wimbledon finalist in the Open era and could barely move without the aid of a cane. Amazing he even dared to show up that Sunday. Respect!
 
H

Herald

Guest
2015 Federer
2014 Federer
2019 Federer
2011 Nadal
2013 Murray
2021 Berrettini
2018 Anderson
2022 Kyrgios
 
P

paolo2143

Professional
I think going into the final Roger in 2015 was in the best form of all the finalists as he had given an absolute masterclass when thrashing a then fit Andy Murray. He literally blew Murray off the court that day in an inspired display.

Novak played at his best in 2015 final to allow him to win.

Yes Murray played excellent in 2013 final but that was when Novak had only 1 Wimbledon title and his serve was so weak compared to nowadays, and he was definitely shattered after S/F.

I honestly think if Novak was playing at level he did in 2015 or 2022 finals he would have beaten Murray but we will never know.
 
H

Herald

Guest
paolo2143 said:
I think going into the final Roger in 2015 was in the best form of all the finalists as he had given an absolute masterclass when thrashing a then fit Andy Murray. He literally blew Murray off the court that day in an inspired display.

Novak played at his best in 2015 final to allow him to win.

Yes Murray played excellent in 2013 final but that was when Novak had only 1 Wimbledon title and his serve was so weak compared to nowadays, and he was definitely shattered after S/F.

I honestly think if Novak was playing at level he did in 2015 or 2022 finals he would have beaten Murray but we will never know.
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Well said. It wasn't just the semi-finals. He lost all of one set to massive serving Groth en route, and was making a circus of Querrey with casual between the legs shots. Then came the masterclass against Murray. Djokovic was just too good for him.
 
The Guru

The Guru

Legend
15 Fed
14 Fed
11 Nadal
19 Fed
22 Kyrgios
21 Berretini
18 Anderson

A small part of me wants to put Nick over 19 Fed but that’s prolly a little aggressive. I feel pretty strongly that the 19 final was not a good match but that’s honestly probably a bridge too far. Curious if anyone else thinks these 2 are actually pretty close or maybe I’m losing my marbles.
 
Third Serve

Third Serve

Talk Tennis Guru
Seeing a couple of posts here putting 2015 Fed over 2014 Fed. I think it’s a fair position to take and one I used to agree with but now I think I’d disagree. While the first two sets of the 2015 match were perhaps better than anything he put up in 2014 and he was up against a stronger opponent in 2015, I think the second half of the match really does him no favors.

The third set wasn’t too bad but it was also clearly weaker than the first two and arguably worse than most of the sets in 2014. Then the fourth was even worse—I’d even call it an outright mediocre one.

This seems to show that maybe Fed wasn’t up to the task of staying physically competitive for that long (bit like how Agassi put up a respectable effort in the middle third of the 2005 final before completely collapsing in the fourth set), but whatever the case, he clearly couldn’t keep the fight going for that long. This wouldn’t hurt him against 2019 Fed as I don’t think 2019 Fed was even close to the first two sets of the 2015 final, but against 2014 Fed it’s a definite mark because even if Djokovic should have closed out the match sooner, I feel 2014 Fed maintained a reasonably high level throughout almost the whole match where 2015 could only maintain a slightly higher level over two sets.
 
H

Herald

Guest
Third Serve said:
Seeing a couple of posts here putting 2015 Fed over 2014 Fed. I think it’s a fair position to take and one I used to agree with but now I think I’d disagree. While the first two sets of the 2015 match were perhaps better than anything he put up in 2014 and he was up against a stronger opponent in 2015, I think the second half of the match really does him no favors.

The third set wasn’t too bad but it was also clearly weaker than the first two and arguably worse than most of the sets in 2014. Then the fourth was even worse—I’d even call it an outright mediocre one.

This seems to show that maybe Fed wasn’t up to the task of staying physically competitive for that long (bit like how Agassi put up a respectable effort in the middle third of the 2005 final before completely collapsing in the fourth set), but whatever the case, he clearly couldn’t keep the fight going for that long. This wouldn’t hurt him against 2019 Fed as I don’t think 2019 Fed was even close to the first two sets of the 2015 final, but against 2014 Fed it’s a definite mark because even if Djokovic should have closed out the match sooner, I feel 2014 Fed maintained a reasonably high level throughout almost the whole match where 2015 could only maintain a slightly higher level over two sets.
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Bingo. That's the difference, and it's a big one. Novak's serve, forehand, return, movement and confidence were in a different league from 2014. I believe he suffocated Federer, who knew he had to crowd the baseline to have a chance and unfortunately Novak's depth and pace off both wings made life hard from that position. Federer was playing some of his best tennis in that final. His dip in the 3rd and 4th sets were due to him not being able to keep up the level needed to stay with Nole.
 
AnOctorokForDinner

AnOctorokForDinner

Talk Tennis Guru
The Guru said:
15 Fed
14 Fed
11 Nadal
19 Fed
22 Kyrgios
21 Berretini
18 Anderson

A small part of me wants to put Nick over 19 Fed but that’s prolly a little aggressive. I feel pretty strongly that the 19 final was not a good match but that’s honestly probably a bridge too far. Curious if anyone else thinks these 2 are actually pretty close or maybe I’m losing my marbles.
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2022 Kyrgios or 2009 Roddick?
 
The Guru

The Guru

Legend
Third Serve said:
Seeing a couple of posts here putting 2015 Fed over 2014 Fed. I think it’s a fair position to take and one I used to agree with but now I think I’d disagree. While the first two sets of the 2015 match were perhaps better than anything he put up in 2014 and he was up against a stronger opponent in 2015, I think the second half of the match really does him no favors.

The third set wasn’t too bad but it was also clearly weaker than the first two and arguably worse than most of the sets in 2014. Then the fourth was even worse—I’d even call it an outright mediocre one.

This seems to show that maybe Fed wasn’t up to the task of staying physically competitive for that long (bit like how Agassi put up a respectable effort in the middle third of the 2005 final before completely collapsing in the fourth set), but whatever the case, he clearly couldn’t keep the fight going for that long. This wouldn’t hurt him against 2019 Fed as I don’t think 2019 Fed was even close to the first two sets of the 2015 final, but against 2014 Fed it’s a definite mark because even if Djokovic should have closed out the match sooner, I feel 2014 Fed maintained a reasonably high level throughout almost the whole match where 2015 could only maintain a slightly higher level over two sets.
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I’ve seen the whole Fed dropped off a cliff thing in 2015 a lot and I really just do not see it. I think it’s a narrative that’s retroactively made from the result not what actually happened in the match. People look and see Fed lost to a double break and assume given he was absolutely lock down out of this world first three sets on serve that he dropped off a ton. But when you look at those two games it paints a really different picture.

1st game:
0-0: Fed S&V off 2nd (a little questionable choice) Djokovic return at Feds feet and passes on the next ball
0-15: unreturned secondserve
15-15: Fed S&V Djok return short and low Fed backs off hits over BH Djok passes up line and Fed retreats Fed FH FE on pass attempt
15-30: Djokovic return into the BH corner Fed hitting fall away FH first ball plays great defense to offense point
30-30: Djokovic return skids off back of the line Fed with neutral BH error
30-40: Djokovic rips second serve return into BH side hits the baseline BH forced error

Fed 3/6 first serves one UE

Second Game:
This is legitimately one of the greatest return games ever played imo

0-0: FH return winner CC off first serve (ring a bell ;))
0-15: Second serve return to BH the fires CC FH hits the baseline for a Fed FE
0-30: Fed S&V makes good low CC volley Djok pass clips top of the tape and is barely wide
15-30: BHDTL return winner off first serve
15-40: Second serve return off baseline works the advantage to Inside out FH winner.

Total:
Fed 6/11 first serves one UFE in two games. Far from bad. Breaks were far from gifted and I would say the second one was basically unavoidable. Fed also won 27% of return points only 4% below match average and not bad against peak Djokovic in full flow. To compare Fed’s 3rd and 4th to Agassi 05 4th is just wildly inaccurate. Fed did not gas out and he definitely didn’t play poorly. I think a more accurate way of describing the matches would be 15 first two sets are clear two best sets on the board and all the other ones are comparable. Djokovic was the better player start to finish in 14 it had absolutely no business going 5.
 
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RS

RS

Bionic Poster
The Guru said:
15 Fed
14 Fed
11 Nadal
19 Fed
22 Kyrgios
21 Berretini
18 Anderson

A small part of me wants to put Nick over 19 Fed but that’s prolly a little aggressive. I feel pretty strongly that the 19 final was not a good match but that’s honestly probably a bridge too far. Curious if anyone else thinks these 2 are actually pretty close or maybe I’m losing my marbles.
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Were would you rank 2012 Murray and 2018 SF Nadal here?
 
RS

RS

Bionic Poster
The Guru said:
I’ve seen the whole Fed dropped off a cliff thing in 2015 a lot and I really just do not see it. I think it’s a narrative that’s retroactively made from the result not what actually happened in the match. People look and see Fed lost to a double break and assume given he was absolutely lock down out of this world first three sets on serve that he dropped off a ton. But when you look at those two games it paints a really different picture.

1st game:
0-0: Fed S&V off 2nd (a little questionable choice) Djokovic return at Feds feet and passes on the next ball
0-15: unreturned secondserve
15-15: Fed S&V Djok return short and low Fed backs off hits over BH Djok passes up line and Fed retreats Fed FH FE on pass attempt
15-30: Djokovic return into the BH corner Fed hitting fall away FH first ball plays great defense to offense point
30-30: Djokovic return skids off back of the line Fed with neutral BH error
30-40: Djokovic rips second serve return into BH side hits the baseline BH forced error

Fed 3/6 first serves one UE

Second Game:
This is legitimately one of the greatest return games ever played imo

0-0: FH return winner CC off first serve (ring a bell ;))
0-15: Second serve return to BH the fires CC FH hits the baseline for a Fed FE
0-30: Fed S&V makes good low CC volley Djok pass clips top of the tape and is barely wide
15-30: BHDTL return winner off first serve
15-40: Second serve return off baseline works the advantage to Inside out FH winner.

Total:
Fed 6/11 first serves one UFE in two games. Far from bad. Breaks were far from gifted and I would say the second one was basically unavoidable. Fed also won 27% of return points only 4% below match average and not bad against peak Djokovic in full flow. To compare Fed’s 3rd and 4th to Agassi 05 4th is just wildly inaccurate. Fed did not gas out and he definitely didn’t play poorly. I think a more accurate way of describing the matches would be 15 first two sets are clear two best sets on the board and all the other ones are comparable. Djokovic was the better player start to finish in 14 it had absolutely no business going 5.
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8/10 seems like a good rating. Didn't threaten enough on return later :p

Djokovic 9.5/10.
 
The Guru

The Guru

Legend
RS said:
I should have known you don't engage this days sorry :(
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No worries you don’t have to apologize you can ask me whatever you want I just won’t always answer. For old times sake 18 Novak in 5.
 
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D

Deleted member 762343

Guest
Spencer Gore said:
You tried to mock the original poster, thinking he would have rated Anderson as a finalist when it was perfectly clear the post was written in chronological order. If people actually took the time to read the posts before jumping in we could actually have a sensible conversation about tennis. But that's the problem with the internet and social media in general -no one takes the time to properly read anything they're so keen to jump in with a "gotcha".

And my post to Rafa was written tongue in cheek with deliberate comic hyperbole which anyone of minimum intelligence would have been able to tell immediately upon reading it. Again, try and read things properly before launching into invective.
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You spend your time writing unbelievably dumb posts so drop your superiority complex, you don't have an ounce of credibility. If I didn't take the time to read his post, how would I have known where he put Anderson ? Yes, it was in chronological order and I didn't notice, not because I didn't properly read but because sometimes people can make mistakes and have brain farts, especially when reading posts that were written late in the night. It happens, but if the person acknowledges the mistake and the misunderstanding is cleared, there's nothing else to say. Yet you jumped on your keyboard like a child to flatter your ego and you think you sound smart with your stupid lecture. Again, go make another dumb thread if you're bored.
 
F

FRV4

Hall of Fame
Just a guess, didn't watch all of these:

2013 Murray with the W, that's the only reason
2014 Fed
2015 Fed
2011 Nadal
2019 Federer
2022 Kyrgios
2021 Berretini
2018 Anderson

You know what's crazy is that I thought I missed 2016 and then realized these are just the years Djokovic was in the finals, not just every year
 
T

tudwell

G.O.A.T.
Third Serve said:
Seeing a couple of posts here putting 2015 Fed over 2014 Fed. I think it’s a fair position to take and one I used to agree with but now I think I’d disagree. While the first two sets of the 2015 match were perhaps better than anything he put up in 2014 and he was up against a stronger opponent in 2015, I think the second half of the match really does him no favors.

The third set wasn’t too bad but it was also clearly weaker than the first two and arguably worse than most of the sets in 2014. Then the fourth was even worse—I’d even call it an outright mediocre one.

This seems to show that maybe Fed wasn’t up to the task of staying physically competitive for that long (bit like how Agassi put up a respectable effort in the middle third of the 2005 final before completely collapsing in the fourth set), but whatever the case, he clearly couldn’t keep the fight going for that long. This wouldn’t hurt him against 2019 Fed as I don’t think 2019 Fed was even close to the first two sets of the 2015 final, but against 2014 Fed it’s a definite mark because even if Djokovic should have closed out the match sooner, I feel 2014 Fed maintained a reasonably high level throughout almost the whole match where 2015 could only maintain a slightly higher level over two sets.
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I think it was less physical than mental. There was a point-by-point, even shot-by-shot intensity in the first two sets that was simply unsustainable. There was always going to be a let down. I don't see much difference in Fed's play in the 3rd and 4th sets of the 2015 final and his average level in the 2014 final. He was doing nothing on return in 14 until Novak got tight late in the fourth. And then again nothing in the fifth. Fed generated all of two break points outside the fourth set in 2014, neither taken. And however high Fed may have raised his level in that fourth set, it was still pretty clearly a notch below his level in the first two sets of 2015.

I'm of the opinion that Fed's 2015 is probably about on par with 2017 as Fed's best post-2012 run at Wimbledon and the only reason he didn't get the title is Novak played probably the single best grass court match he's ever played. No shame there. A little unlucky, though. Would've won the title in many, many other years. 2015 Fed was a monster.
 
RS

RS

Bionic Poster
It's tough between the elite 5. Nadal 2011/Murray 2013/Fed 2014/Fed 2015/Fed 2019.
 
Third Serve

Third Serve

Talk Tennis Guru
The Guru said:
I’ve seen the whole Fed dropped off a cliff thing in 2015 a lot and I really just do not see it. I think it’s a narrative that’s retroactively made from the result not what actually happened in the match. People look and see Fed lost to a double break and assume given he was absolutely lock down out of this world first three sets on serve that he dropped off a ton. But when you look at those two games it paints a really different picture.

1st game:
0-0: Fed S&V off 2nd (a little questionable choice) Djokovic return at Feds feet and passes on the next ball
0-15: unreturned secondserve
15-15: Fed S&V Djok return short and low Fed backs off hits over BH Djok passes up line and Fed retreats Fed FH FE on pass attempt
15-30: Djokovic return into the BH corner Fed hitting fall away FH first ball plays great defense to offense point
30-30: Djokovic return skids off back of the line Fed with neutral BH error
30-40: Djokovic rips second serve return into BH side hits the baseline BH forced error

Fed 3/6 first serves one UE

Second Game:
This is legitimately one of the greatest return games ever played imo

0-0: FH return winner CC off first serve (ring a bell ;))
0-15: Second serve return to BH the fires CC FH hits the baseline for a Fed FE
0-30: Fed S&V makes good low CC volley Djok pass clips top of the tape and is barely wide
15-30: BHDTL return winner off first serve
15-40: Second serve return off baseline works the advantage to Inside out FH winner.

Total:
Fed 6/11 first serves one UFE in two games. Far from bad. Breaks were far from gifted and I would say the second one was basically unavoidable. Fed also won 27% of return points only 4% below match average and not bad against peak Djokovic in full flow. To compare Fed’s 3rd and 4th to Agassi 05 4th is just wildly inaccurate. Fed did not gas out and he definitely didn’t play poorly. I think a more accurate way of describing the matches would be 15 first two sets are clear two best sets on the board and all the other ones are comparable. Djokovic was the better player start to finish in 14 it had absolutely no business going 5.
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Hmm, I like this. Actually dives into the match a bit (reminds me of @InsideOut900 posts). I do recall that second break being much more of a demonstration of Djokovic’s insane returning than Fed’s sloppiness.

I will need to rewatch that set though, and probably the rest of the match too.
 
AO13

AO13

Hall of Fame
2013 Murray
2019 Federer
2014 Federer
2015 Federer
2011 Nadal
2022 Kyrgios
2021 Berrettini
2018 Anderson
 
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