in 10 years, will everyone serve like Roddick

[bjk]

If you compare Roddick's and Djoker's serve, this big difference is that by the time Roddick releases the toss, he's very close to being in the trophy position. Djoker's racquet, by contrast, is pointing at the earth as he releases the toss, so he needs exquisite timing in order to generate good pace.

Roddick Serve - release at 32 sec

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SZbxKuLEP_o&feature=related

Djoker - release at 8 sec

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vtfEP6bOrvI

It's obvious that Roddick's motion (or a close variant, like Dolgopolov's short toss and quick motion) is 100x more effective at generating racket speed and accuracy. So will all the young juniors inevitably adopt his quick & dirty motion?


Added:

Dolgopolov release at 6 sec

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IX2q3Eb6ZkQ

 

[joe sch]

I do not agree with your conclusions.

I believe its easier to generate racket head speed with the more classic service toss since there is more distance between the racket and toss so it does not take a faster acceleration of the racket head in a shorter distance. Many players are not capable of generating that speed in the shorter distance so will have weaker serves. Same issue with shorter strokes, it more difficult to generate racket head speed, which is why the lighter, more powerful new rackets help in this aspect.

I believe the more classical toss makes it easier to balance, since the larger spread of the racket with the toss allows for better counter balance. Principle of centrifugal force.

For these reasons, I believe teaching the classical serve is still the best choice. On the other hand, I recommend a shorter toss, since the timing is simpler and the consistency is better especially when the elements like wind and sun are factored in.

 

[Dave M]

Surely it would of happened by now given the amount of time Roddick has been on tour?

 

[bjk]

I do not agree with your conclusions.

I believe its easier to generate racket head speed with the more classic service toss since there is more distance between the racket and toss so it does not take a faster acceleration of the racket head in a shorter distance. Many players are not capable of generating that speed in the shorter distance so will have weaker serves. Same issue with shorter strokes, it more difficult to generate racket head speed, which is why the lighter, more powerful new rackets help in this aspect.

I believe the more classical toss makes it easier to balance, since the larger spread of the racket with the toss allows for better counter balance. Principle of centrifugal force.

For these reasons, I believe teaching the classical serve is still the best choice. On the other hand, I recommend a shorter toss, since the timing is simpler and the consistency is better especially when the elements like wind and sun are factored in.

The quicker the motion, the more rapid the kinetic chain, the more power is unleashed. That's the counterargument, I don't know if it's right.

Roddick doesn't really have a low toss, either. Look at the video tape again.

 

[bjk]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GIE87Qa5ZaI&feature=related

Tell me this isn't the serve of the future.

 

[Limpinhitter]

The quicker the motion, the more rapid the kinetic chain, the more power is unleashed. That's the counterargument, I don't know if it's right.

Roddick doesn't really have a low toss, either. Look at the video tape again.

I couldn't disagree more. The quicker the motion, the more likely the timing of the kinetic chain will be disconnected, executed out of sequence, and wasted.

 

[spaceman_spiff]

People will do whatever comes naturally to them, meaning we will continue to see the diversity that we have seen for ages.

Besides, if there were ever an ideal motion in terms of creating power and spin with minimal effort, I would think it would be something very similar to Ivanisevic. Despite the low toss, he had good forward motion, shoulder turn, knee bend, extension, and so on. His motion was smooth but simple, wasting very little energy and giving little room for timing problems.

 

[bjk]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?NR=1&v=w6cqVAKpOx0

Djokovic was a big fan of Sampras. Might be where he got the service motion. Look at how Sampras racket is pointing at the ground as he releases the toss.

 

[BMC9670]

Regardless of motion, pace is only one aspect of an effective serve. Sampras had a full motion and was known as one of the best servers ever. Federer's motion is very similar to Sampras', and it's very effective for him. I'm not sure if it's easy to look this up, but I would bet both of those guys have an equal or greater percentage of first serve points won over the course of their career. And that's what really matters.

It's like baseball pitchers - while all have fundamentals that are similar, motions will vary from player to player.

 

[WildVolley]

The correct answer is YES.

Actually, I think well still see a variety of motions into the trophy pose. The big breathru conceptually caused by Roddick's serve is that all the different styles prior to the trophy pose are basically styles that have very little to do with how hard the ball is hit or how much spin is produced. The body coil and position at the trophy forward is what is bringing pace to the ball.

I think there is nothing wrong with experimenting with going directly into your trophy pose if you are learning how to serve.

 

[rkelley]

Honestly, maybe.

Roddick's serve is massively effective. He's got pace, placement, unreal consistency (70-80% first serves at 130 mph!!!), great second serve . . . He's a big, strong guy, but there are others like him physically on the tour. His serve, at least until recently, has still been a cut above.

I saw an interesting article that John Yandell wrote about aspects of Roddick's serve that are truly different than current, accepted form. One was how Roddick loads his feet so that he gets leg drive more evenly from both legs as opposed to primarily the front leg. There were some other things that he found but you had to pay to see those. Can't blame a guy for wanting to make a buck from his work, but I'm too cheap.

As a model for adoption, if you go look at Bjorn Borg's forehand c. 1975 you will see what is basically the "modern" WW forehand. But there was a big gap between Borg and the current level of adoption of his fh swing path, but it's ubiquitous now.

 

[GuyClinch]

All of the stuff prior to the setup in the trophy position strikes me as as cosmetic. I don't get why announcers and some folks go on and on about it being so revolutionary.

Don't get me wrong Roddick does some neat stuff with this serve but they get hypnotized by his set up... Roddick could go out and hit huge serves with a Sampras style beginning too with maybe 1 week of practice at the most, IMHO.

 

[saigonbond 2.0]

Everyone? Including all the hackers in here? Lol. How many hackers do you know that have the physical strength, flexibility, coordination, and skill required to pull off a service motion like Roddick's? The answer is no.

 

[NLBwell]

Then everybody would already be serving like Roscoe Tanner.

 

[bjk]

"One was how Roddick loads his feet so that he gets leg drive more evenly from both legs as opposed to primarily the front leg."

This makes sense. Compare his legs with, for instance, James Blake. Blake's back leg is going in the opposite direction.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6j8fzQMJFX4&feature=relmfu

 

[Geology_Rocks!]

I also saw the article Yandell wrote about how he pushes off with both legs and how he steps back with the front foot to make it possible.

But then after watching some videos on youtube I noticed he is no longer taking this little step back, anyone knows why?

 

[wings56]

Then everybody would already be serving like Roscoe Tanner.

that is EXACTLY the point i was going to make. unless someone comes up with some new revolutionary technique to produce an unreturnable serve then i believe there will always be variations between those who prefer the classic technique or a compact or quick motion

 

[skiracer55]

I don't think so...

...regardless of the mechanics, look at the results. Beyond the serve, Djokovich (and a whole lot of other people) have a lot more game than Roddick does right now, which is another way of saying that it's hard to serve your way to the top. Roddick did it for a brief period of time when he won the US Open in 2003 and was #1 in the world.

Since then, his serve still has the same mph, but it's starting to look pretty one dimensional and predictable to me...thus, other players are able to break his serve more often these days. I think it was a Tennis magazine article this year that talked about how Djokovich is succeeding with his serve not just because of pace...although he can hit with a lot of mph...but because he has variety on his serve. He's not just a fastballer, he can throw a bunch of different pitches. And I think a lot of that is due to his motion, which is a lot like Sampras', as someone noted. Sampras had a huge serve, but he had a lot of variety on it, too...as does Djokovich. Roddick's serve, in contrast, looks a lot more hardcoded and hard to vary. So the Roddick mechanics are one approach, but, no, I don't think it's going to dominate serving styles any time in the future.

 

[fuzz nation]

If you compare Roddick's and Djoker's serve, this big difference is that by the time Roddick releases the toss, he's very close to being in the trophy position. Djoker's racquet, by contrast, is pointing at the earth as he releases the toss, so he needs exquisite timing in order to generate good pace.

This is actually something that many players at every level can learn from. Even though the vast majority of us don't possess anything like Andy's "live arm" or explosive strength, that synchronization in his windup is a huge contributor to a more reliable serve.

Lower level players right up through the pros will often get late with their windup where their tosses happen way before they're good and ready to swing up to contact. Djokovic's racquet drops as he tosses the ball up, which I strongly advise against whenever I can. Doing that puts the racquet in a position where it's got a long way to go just to get up to the trophy position... before even swinging up to the ball. Way too easy to be a tiny fraction of a second late, especially if the toss isn't high enough to give the server enough hang time for a complete windup.

Fernando Gonzalez is another player with a windup that includes taking the racquet directly to its trophy position or "release point". Another player who completes most of her windup before her toss is Marion Bartoli. Laugh all you want, but her homegrown windup is extremely effective - she also gets to her trophy position good and ready to fire. She was also one of the top servers in the WTA stat's this past year - no surprise to me.

There are a couple of aspects with Roddick's serve that I'm not wild about in terms of "general consumption", although I also like how he gets both legs more active in his drive up to the ball. While different players will always have styles that are peculiar to them, there are usually valuable components that can be copied from just about any decent player. In this case, I like idea of the toss being delayed until the server is more fully "loaded up" and ready to fire the racquet.

 

[TennisCJC]

Roscoe Tanner and Goran Ivan... had short, quick motions decades ago and it did not overly influence subsequent players. High tosses and long fluid motions will likely always be a part of the game.

Federer and Sampras are 2 of the best servers ever and they use platform stances with relatively long and fluid motions.

But, Roddick, Tanner, Goran, and Dogo are excellent servers with pin point stances, lower tosses and relatively short motions.

Figure out what works for you and use it. I don't think either style will dominate in the future.

 

[rdis10093]

roddick's motion is very compact, it would be hard for the the rest of the tour to serve like him

 

[fuzz nation]

The quicker the motion, the more rapid the kinetic chain, the more power is unleashed. That's the counterargument, I don't know if it's right.

I think I get where you're coming from here, but I see it another way that doesn't justify a quicker motion or a more rapid kinetic chain. Although the objective is to generate decent racquet speed for making pace and spin on the serve, there's also a component of control that's necessary to land the ball on a target. (I've actually wondered just how hard Roddick might hit a ball if he simply had to serve it through the court without having to land it in the service box.)

To make the most power with our serves, that's usually accomplished with a full motion that's not rushed or "muscled". When we clench our teeth and gorilla-grip the racquet in an attempt to crush the ball, that usually creates too much tension and restricts motion. Bottom line: it restricts the kinetic chain. Keep the windup loose and un-rushed and that's where the most racquet head speed is consistently turned out... with an aspect of control included.

Just saying that to preserve that control with the serve, it can usually be done with a longer progression of acceleration instead of a violent burst at the ball. Roddick's swing for his serve is so insanely compact because he has a combination of strength and flexibility in his shoulder that lets him perform that action over and over without shredding anything in his rotator cuff. Lots of other players on the tour can't even duplicate that action. For the rest of us, it's more realistic to accelerate the racquet through a longer progression that doesn't get out of shape or require perilous contortions.

 

[bjk]

The serve does make progress, just like any other stroke. Nobody serves like Jimmy Connors these days, but plenty of people picked up Becker's deep knee bend. Hard to imagine Roddick without Becker. Monfils imitated Roddick, Rampras and Spadea imitated Sampras. Eventually I think tennis converges on stroke standards. Nobody hits an eastern forehand except for maybe Fish.

Dogo looks a bit like Roscoe's serve, btw.

 

[WildVolley]

roddick's motion is very compact, it would be hard for the the rest of the tour to serve like him

Roddick's motion into his trophy pose is compact, but if you watch slow motion video, you'll see the rest of his motion is less compact and probably has more racket movement than most other players.

There are a couple reasons for this. 1) Roddick uses an offset trophy pose where the hand is lower and to the right of the shoulder compared to the traditional trophy pose, so the hand actually is tracing a less compact and longer path into the drop than most players. And 2) his explosive upward movement driven by his legs, and his flexible shoulder means his racket drops lower than almost any other player. For instance, Federer has a longer windup but much shallower drop than Roddick.

It is hard to appreciate Roddick's motion if you watch it in real time. I've heard some people say that he has a shallow drop. They think this because it happens so fast that it is hard to take in. In slow motion it really is a thing of beauty and genius.

 

[Ryoma]

I think what's missing here in the discussion is how muscular Roddick is. He is very muscular, just like Nadal. It's not just the service motion, it's the conditioning. And if you watch it live, most player can serve in the 135mph range casually. So it's more than just the speed but the effectiveness of the serve.

 

[SystemicAnomaly]

I think what's missing here in the discussion is how muscular Roddick is. He is very muscular, just like Nadal...

This is undoubtedly a factor, but it not necessarily the primary factor for Andy's serve speed & effectiveness. I do not doubt that Roddick is fairly strong but is probably not the strongest player past or present. Power (aka speed strength) is also a significant factor. Roddick is way above average in this respect as well. However, Rafa, who is nearly as tall as Andy, is probably both stronger and faster. Yet Rafa does not serve as fast as Andy.

Roddick may also posses some other anatomical advantages with respect to his serve over most players. It is these advantages coupled with his hand-eye coordination, timing and unique service motion that enables him to achieve his serve speed & effectiveness.

 

[SystemicAnomaly]

Roddick has certainly made the abbreviated takeback on the serve popular. His takeback is fairly simple (but somewhat stylized).

However, some other aspects of his serve motion may not be suitable for many other players. One of these is the way he pulls his head down early -- prior to ball contact. This action may very well assist the forward snap of his upper body. For most of us, tho', pulling the head down early would likely result in serving errors.

I also saw the article Yandell wrote about how he pushes off with both legs and how he steps back with the front foot to make it possible.

But then after watching some videos on youtube I noticed he is no longer taking this little step back, anyone knows why?

I noticed (and wondered) the same thing. In both versions of his serve, however, his stance is nearly the same -- something of a narrow platform (or wide pinpoint).

 

[Fedace]

I agree that this short motion is little more goofy proof. but it looks too weird for everyone to copy it.

 

[gregor.b]

If you compare Roddick's and Djoker's serve, this big difference is that by the time Roddick releases the toss, he's very close to being in the trophy position. Djoker's racquet, by contrast, is pointing at the earth as he releases the toss, so he needs exquisite timing in order to generate good pace.

Roddick Serve - release at 32 sec

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SZbxKuLEP_o&feature=related

Djoker - release at 8 sec

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vtfEP6bOrvI

It's obvious that Roddick's motion (or a close variant, like Dolgopolov's short toss and quick motion) is 100x more effective at generating racket speed and accuracy. So will all the young juniors inevitably adopt his quick & dirty motion?


Added:

Dolgopolov release at 6 sec

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IX2q3Eb6ZkQ

To the OP.Geez,I hope not.Tennis will become 1 ugly game.

 

[Manus Domini]

Roscoe Tanner and Goran Ivan... had short, quick motions decades ago and it did not overly influence subsequent players. High tosses and long fluid motions will likely always be a part of the game.

Federer and Sampras are 2 of the best servers ever and they use platform stances with relatively long and fluid motions.

But, Roddick, Tanner, Goran, and Dogo are excellent servers with pin point stances, lower tosses and relatively short motions.

Figure out what works for you and use it. I don't think either style will dominate in the future.

Roddick and Dolgo don't have pin point stances...

 

[hawk eye]

I noticed when trying an abbreviated motion for a while I could more explode into my serve, and was able to hit real first serve bombs (at least at my level they are).
But spin and placement sort of suffered. Maybe that takes more time to get right.

 

[JohnYandell]

Andy's serve certainly works for him. If you study it frame by frame, you'll see his trophy position is very different from Sampras or Federer. When the tossing arm is extended, his hitting arm is still quite far to his side, unlike the traditional position with the racket tip pointing up.

If you use high speed video frames to measure duration, you see that he actually has to travel further to contact in the same time interval--this may partially explain his racket speed.

He also has a phenomenally flexible shoulder and at the drop rotates his upper arm very far back. His forearm also suppinates taking the racket to his right so that initially it approaches the ball from the outside.

Monfils is the only example I know of in which a player has successfully incorporated most of the Roddick elements.

Most of the players I have filmed--including many nationally ranked juniors--it's a disaster. It's much harder to get to the full racket drop from his wind up and requires more external shoulder rotation--great if you can do it but very few can.

What I have seen repeatedly is players with restricted racket drops who now come at the ball on a diagonal across the back.

No harm in experimenting and some players may make it work. My view is that a player like Federer or Djokovic is a much better model--and it's hard to say they haven't served effectively at the highest possible levels.

 

[sunof tennis]

This is undoubtedly a factor, but it not necessarily the primary factor for Andy's serve speed & effectiveness. I do not doubt that Roddick is fairly strong but is probably not the strongest player past or present. Power (aka speed strength) is also a significant factor. Roddick is way above average in this respect as well. However, Rafa, who is nearly as tall as Andy, is probably both stronger and faster. Yet Rafa does not serve as fast as Andy.

Roddick may also posses some other anatomical advantages with respect to his serve over most players. It is these advantages coupled with his hand-eye coordination, timing and unique service motion that enables him to achieve his serve speed & effectiveness.

Andy also has what baseball pitchers call a live arm. Rafa probably doesn't. I also wonder how much he has thrown with his left hand. Saw his video of him re-learning the serve and didn't seem to have a real natural throwing motion for a world class athlete.

 

[rufus_smith]

Seems like the ATP pros have been returning Roddicks serve more easily this year. Not sure why.

One drawback of Roddicks serve may be a greater difficulty in stepping into the court for serve and volley.

 

[Crazy man]

Andy's serve certainly works for him. If you study it frame by frame, you'll see his trophy position is very different from Sampras or Federer. When the tossing arm is extended, his hitting arm is still quite far to his side, unlike the traditional position with the racket tip pointing up.

If you use high speed video frames to measure duration, you see that he actually has to travel further to contact in the same time interval--this may partially explain his racket speed.

He also has a phenomenally flexible shoulder and at the drop rotates his upper arm very far back. His forearm also suppinates taking the racket to his right so that initially it approaches the ball from the outside.

Monfils is the only example I know of in which a player has successfully incorporated most of the Roddick elements.

Most of the players I have filmed--including many nationally ranked juniors--it's a disaster. It's much harder to get to the full racket drop from his wind up and requires more external shoulder rotation--great if you can do it but very few can.

What I have seen repeatedly is players with restricted racket drops who now come at the ball on a diagonal across the back.

No harm in experimenting and some players may make it work. My view is that a player like Federer or Djokovic is a much better model--and it's hard to say they haven't served effectively at the highest possible levels.

Great post. The motion wouldn't give everyone Roddick-esque results. Different motions work for different players dependant on how their body works. Monfils, although not as explosive on the legs as Roddick, has got the preparation to contact point nearly identical to Roddicks.




I don't think Roddick using Sampras' motion would achieve as good of a delivery as he has with his unique motion (directed at GuyClinch's post). Roddick stated he couldn't serve very well with a non-abbreviated motion to the point it was weak and couldn't even get it in.

 

[WildVolley]

Andy's serve certainly works for him. If you study it frame by frame, you'll see his trophy position is very different from Sampras or Federer. When the tossing arm is extended, his hitting arm is still quite far to his side, unlike the traditional position with the racket tip pointing up.

If you use high speed video frames to measure duration, you see that he actually has to travel further to contact in the same time interval--this may partially explain his racket speed.

Good analysis, this is what I got from your article on tennisplayer.net.

I think it is something a lot of servers should experiment with. By shifting to the offset trophy pose in an attempt to emulate Roddick, I almost immediately got an extra 10mph on my first serve. It also helped me put more spin on my 2nd serve.

 

[JohnYandell]

Crazy, Wild,

Thanks. And Wild glad the info worked for you that's great to hear.

John Yandell

 

[5263]

Andy's serve certainly works for him. If you study it frame by frame, you'll see his trophy position is very different from Sampras or Federer. When the tossing arm is extended, his hitting arm is still quite far to his side, unlike the traditional position with the racket tip pointing up.

If you use high speed video frames to measure duration, you see that he actually has to travel further to contact in the same time interval--this may partially explain his racket speed.

He also has a phenomenally flexible shoulder and at the drop rotates his upper arm very far back. His forearm also suppinates taking the racket to his right so that initially it approaches the ball from the outside.


No harm in experimenting and some players may make it work. My view is that a player like Federer or Djokovic is a much better model--and it's hard to say they haven't served effectively at the highest possible levels.

some very good points