Is a starting clamp really better than a starting knot?

[Tennisblues]

I just came across this thread on google when I was searching to see if there is way to create a less bulkier starting knot, and I was surprised to see people advocating tying off the first cross string using a clamp.

In my opinion, if you are stringing for yourself, and want to maximize uniform feeling of sweet spot, don't tie off the first cross string using the starting clamp method. Instead use a starting knot and pull tension on it. People saying doing so will cause a racquet to break etc are probably exaggerating. But I don't have scientific proof to support my case either. However, if you are an advanced player, you probably play with a semi decent graphite based racquet, and those things are made to withstand much more abuse than pulling tension. In my opinion, pulling on a starting knot will not damage grommets, nor will it cause your racquet to crack. At-least, I've never had a situation where it cracked or deformed the frame.

What I think you should care about is the consistency of tension in the sweet spot. Contrary to the popular belief, majority of advanced player's sweet spot is at the top 30% of the racquet, especially on serves, and NOT at the dead center of the racquet. Tying off that top string would cause drawback on the top string no matter how much a professional stringer you are. And let's face it, most people are not professional stringers. Tying off that top string would cause it to lose fair amount of tension, which would slowly but surely make the other two adjacent cross strings drop in tension to equalize. If you don't believe me, take your strung racquet (played atleast couple of hours) and move and feel the tension of the outer 3 strings on the mains and compare it to the center mains. The tension loss on the tieoff string bleeds into a few more strings, even more so with smooth strings, and even more so when you bashing balls at that spot. The same thing applies when you tie off your top cross string. Therefore, your sweet spot will lose tension after an hour of play. And the sweet spot is where most people hit their balls 80% of the time. If you used a starting knot and pulled the string, you'll ensure there is no drawback and your tension in the sweet spot would be consistent, atleast from a string job's perspective. And if you are a noob who is not good at tying off knots without losing fair amount of tension, it is even more important that you use a starting knot.

Now if you are stringing for someone else, then obviously ensuring that you maintain their grommet and racquet integrity is more important than ensuring uniform tension on sweet spot. But if you are stringing for yourself and you want to maintain best performance of your strings, use a starting knot. Let it be known that I'm not saying that you are going to become roger federer or rafael nadal because you used this method over the other. Its very minor, but it is real.

 

[Power Player]

I just came across this thread on google when I was searching to see if there is way to create a less bulkier starting knot, and I was surprised to see people advocating tying off the first cross string using a clamp.

In my opinion, if you are stringing for yourself, and want to maximize uniform feeling of sweet spot, don't tie off the first cross string using the starting clamp method. Instead use a starting knot and pull tension on it. People saying doing so will cause a racquet to break etc are probably exaggerating. But I don't have scientific proof to support my case either. However, if you are an advanced player, you probably play with a semi decent graphite based racquet, and those things are made to withstand much more abuse than pulling tension. In my opinion, pulling on a starting knot will not damage grommets, nor will it cause your racquet to crack. At-least, I've never had a situation where it cracked or deformed the frame.

What I think you should care about is the consistency of tension in the sweet spot. Contrary to the popular belief, majority of advanced player's sweet spot is at the top 30% of the racquet, especially on serves, and NOT at the dead center of the racquet. Tying off that top string would cause drawback on the top string no matter how much a professional stringer you are. And let's face it, most people are not professional stringers. Tying off that top string would cause it to lose fair amount of tension, which would slowly but surely make the other two adjacent cross strings drop in tension to equalize. If you don't believe me, take your strung racquet (played atleast couple of hours) and move and feel the tension of the outer 3 strings on the mains and compare it to the center mains. The tension loss on the tieoff string bleeds into a few more strings, even more so with smooth strings, and even more so when you bashing balls at that spot. The same thing applies when you tie off your top cross string. Therefore, your sweet spot will lose tension after an hour of play. And the sweet spot is where most people hit their balls 80% of the time. If you used a starting knot and pulled the string, you'll ensure there is no drawback and your tension in the sweet spot would be consistent, atleast from a string job's perspective. And if you are a noob who is not good at tying off knots without losing fair amount of tension, it is even more important that you use a starting knot.

Now if you are stringing for someone else, then obviously ensuring that you maintain their grommet and racquet integrity is more important than ensuring uniform tension on sweet spot. But if you are stringing for yourself and you want to maintain best performance of your strings, use a starting knot. Let it be known that I'm not saying that you are going to become roger federer or rafael nadal because you used this method over the other. Its very minor, but it is real.

Can't you just add 5 pounds of tension like a lot of guys do on their last mains?

 

[Tennisblues]

Can't you just add 5 pounds of tension like a lot of guys do on their last mains?

You can, but do you know for sure you are losing exactly 5 pounds of tension while tying off your knot? What if you are stringing using a stretchy string vs something like kevlar? How do you exactly account for how much tension you are losing or not losing while tying off the knot? You simply can't. When adding extra tension, you are just guesstimating your tension loss. On the outer mains, its not really a big deal, because good tennis players don't hit the ball at that part of the racquet, and the tension loss doesn't bleed as much from the outer to center mains. Same with the bottom most cross. Like I said in my post, the issue can be minor if you are good at tying off knots. However, regardless of your ability to tying a good knot and compensating by adding tension, if you want to provide consistent tension on your sweet spot with your string job, the best approach is to use a starting knot.

 

[Power Player]

You can, but do you know for sure you are losing exactly 5 pounds of tension while tying off your knot? What if you are stringing using a stretchy string vs something like kevlar? How do you exactly account for how much tension you are losing or not losing while tying off the knot? You simply can't. When adding extra tension, you are just guesstimating your tension loss. Technically, like I said in my post, the issue can be minor if you are good at tying off knots. However, regardless of your ability to tying a good knot and compensating by adding tension, if you want to provide consistent tension on your sweet spot with your string job, the best approach is to use a starting knot.

By that logic, how do you start and finish your mains?

I simply check my tension after I string. If I am aiming for 45#s and that's the reading, I think I am good to go. Am I missing something?

 

[Tennisblues]

By that logic, how do you start and finish your mains?

I simply check my tension after I string. If I am aiming for 45#s and that's the reading, I think I am good to go. Am I missing something?

Sorry I had edited my post, before your replied to this. I mentioned it there. I'll quote it here again.

On the outer mains, its not really a big deal, because good tennis players don't hit the ball at that part of the racquet, and the tension loss doesn't bleed from the outer to center mains. Same with the bottom most cross. But sweet spot, is the most important part of your racquet. That is where majority of your balls are hit. Ensuring first 7 crosses and the middle 5 mains are consistent in tension, is the most important factor in a good string job.

 

[Power Player]

Sorry I had edited my post, before your replied to this. I mentioned it there. I'll quote it here again.

On the outer mains, its not really a big deal, because good tennis players don't hit the ball at that part of the racquet, and the tension loss doesn't bleed from the outer to center mains. Same with the bottom most cross. But sweet spot, is the most important part of your racquet. That is where majority of your balls are hit. Ensuring first 7 crosses and the middle 5 mains are consistent in tension, is the most important factor in a good string job.

Interested in seeing what others have to say here as a lot of stringers are not using starting knots anymore, and are starting with a clamp.

 

[Tennisblues]

Interested in seeing what others have to say here as a lot of stringers are not using starting knots anymore, and are starting with a clamp.

I have no clue what the stringing standards are, so I'd be interested in their arguments too. I only string for myself. I'm just going off of my experience. My sweet spot is at top 30% of crosses and in the middle of mains, and its the same for people who play atleast at my level or higher. One can easily identify their sweet spot by looking at the wear of strings when using multis or other strings that fray. Having said that, here's an exaggerated experiment to support my argument.

Take a fully strung racquet at high tension (55+), which is where majority of top level players string their racquets at. Cut the outer mains and top and bottom crosses. Let it sit for a while, see which strings lose tension and which strings don't. Try it with different type of strings. I'm sure you'll have your answer presented to you.

 

[Power Player]

A lot of top players are stringing lower than 55 now, honestly.

 

[Tennisblues]

A lot of top players are stringing lower than 55 now, honestly.

Federer : 57 pounds
Djokovic : ~60 pounds
Murray : ~60 pounds.
Del potro : 60+ pounds
Berdych : 55 poounds
Nadal : 55 pounds
Serena Williams : 65 pounds

These tensions are quoted from googling. I know there are a lot who string lower, but if you take top 500 players and average it out, you'll realize that my statement of majority going for 55+ would be true. In any case, the tension requirement was for testing out my exaggerated experiment.

 

[gazz1]

I use a starting clamp.

The way I see it, a small variance on the top string isn’t going to make much difference given that I’ve got bigger problems if I’m hitting the ball up there

 

[Irvin]

If I'm stringing 2 piece I always use a starting knot. There is zero tension loss on the top cross, it is simple to tie and cinch up, and the starting knot does no damage to the string or grommet if your using a good knot.

 

[Rabbit]

When stringing two-piece I always use a starting clamp. You do not pull tension against a grommet, you can use a finishing knot, and it’s a cleaner implementation than a starting knot.

 

[1HBHfanatic]

ive learned to do both methods
ill use either/or method dependent on the situation/racquet/string (gut/ yonex racquets/string length, etc...)..
but as others have mentioned through out this thread, there is "more stress", when pulling on the starting knot (not and issue when dealing with stronger strings)

 

[Irvin]

@1HBHfanatic i use a knot similar to the VS Starting knot, because I believe there is less stress on the grommet/eyelet, anchor string, and the string you’re tying off with a starting knot. Using a finishing knot for gut especially when you cinch up the knot two times puts a lot of stress on the tie off and anchor string. I used to break ZX tying off a finishing knot I’ve never broken it using a starting knot.

 

[Dags]

Tying off that top string would cause it to lose fair amount of tension, which would slowly but surely make the other two adjacent cross strings drop in tension to equalize. If you don't believe me, take your strung racquet (played atleast couple of hours) and move and feel the tension of the outer 3 strings on the mains and compare it to the center mains. The tension loss on the tieoff string bleeds into a few more strings, even more so with smooth strings, and even more so when you bashing balls at that spot.

I've never seen evidence that 'equalisation' like this occurs. Friction between the strings and around the grommets takes a lot to overcome.

If you want to test it, string two racquets, one with a starting knot, the other using a starting clamp. Use a sharpie or similar to mark the string at the grommets, then observe how much they move. I suspect any difference between them will be negligible (though will be extremely interested if this weren't the case!).

 

[gazz1]

I agree, it's hard enough pulling the old crosses out before restringing

 

[DanF1961]

I'm a beginner, trying to learn all I can. I apologize if my question is ridiculous. I use a DW and flying clamps and I have a starting clamp. When I started my crosses with the starting clamp, I pulled the 2nd cross (doubled pulled) and clamped the top two crosses with a flying clamp. I finished the crosses and came back to the top, pulled tension to remove my starting clamp and clamped my top two crosses again. However, this is what doesn't make sense to me: the 2nd time I pulled tension to remove my SC, I'm pulling in the opposite direction I did the first time. Isn't this messing up my tensions in the top crosses by pulling in opposite direction? Or, if I'm off base, please explain. Great thread, thanks to all of you who contribute.

 

[Irvin]

I'm a beginner, trying to learn all I can. I apologize if my question is ridiculous. I use a DW and flying clamps and I have a starting clamp. When I started my crosses with the starting clamp, I pulled the 2nd cross (doubled pulled) and clamped the top two crosses with a flying clamp. I finished the crosses and came back to the top, pulled tension to remove my starting clamp and clamped my top two crosses again. However, this is what doesn't make sense to me: the 2nd time I pulled tension to remove my SC, I'm pulling in the opposite direction I did the first time. Isn't this messing up my tensions in the top crosses by pulling in opposite direction? Or, if I'm off base, please explain. Great thread, thanks to all of you who contribute.

to pull tension on a string you must pull from each end it does not matter when end the clamp is on or which end the tensioner is on.

 

[Irvin]

Here is a racket I strung with Solinco Tour Bite mains and Gamma Challenger SG crosses. The STB was tied with a Parnell knot and the GCSS was tied with a starting knot. I tensioned the top cross at 65# and as you can see the knot does not pull into the grommet.

EDIT: I used a VS starting knot (on the left.) If I was tying off a very slippery string I would have used an iKnot. The only difference is the tag end loops back through the knot from the bottom up.

 

[struggle]

to pull tension on a string you must pull from each end it does not matter when end the clamp is on or which end the tensioner is on.

don't confuse him.

pulling tension is the same no matter which end you pull from.
if the string was previously tensioned to some degree, the second pull just won't
"work" as hard to achieve desired.

 

[TimeToPlaySets]

For crosses, I use a starting knot.
Then I tension the first cross to tighten the knot itself and that 1st cross string.
I hand the drop weight, and give a tug to the end of the knot string.
Then I continue weaving the 2nd cross.

I've done this for 30 string jobs. No problems.
Is this incorrect?

 

[jim e]

@TimeToPlaySets
You are not exactly clear on your post.
If you mean that you cinch up the knot end tag with the tension of your machine, then that's a big no no.
You will just add stress to the string , as you can only cinch it up do tight. I just use my fingers to cinch, but then I do not use a starting knot, as I use a finishing knot on all knots. If you must use something besides your fingers, then use a starting clamp. But wait, you feel that is just a fake reason for a starting clamp, so I guess you cannot use that.Also if you hand weight down on your drop weight, just exactly how much tension are you pulling on that knot. Do that to a nat gut string and you can easily snap the string.Not a good practice to use machine to cinch up knots, although you will find videos online of stringers doing that bad practice. And btw, this is not fake news.

 

[TimeToPlaySets]

I have done that with 2 nat Gut rackets recently. No breaks.
I used the drop weight to tighten up the starting knot and first cross simultaneously.
I don't see any other effective way. To tighten a starting knot you need to pull at both ends.
If you use your finders, it will not tighten.
If you use a pliers, you will damage the string.
So, I use the drop weight to pull one end of the string, and I yank the end of the string with a tool then cut.

 

[am1899]

^^

Hard to imagine a worse way to do it.

 

[mad dog1]

^^

Hard to imagine a worse way to do it.

Impossible. This is TTPS. He is always correct. You are about to be accused of being a troll!

 

[Power Player]

Jim E is easily one of the top posters in this section for info and timetoactlikeanass just ignores his advice and continues to say the same thing over and over.

Stringing is hard and takes time to learn. But i figured it out because I didn’t argue with people who have way more experience than I do and instead listened and did what they said.

 

[TimeToPlaySets]

Which? Using the drop weight
or pulling the 2 ends with pliers and damaging the strings?

How do you prefer to tighten the starting knot ?

 

[jwocky]

If you use a tool, you will damage the string.

Why not eschew all tool use? Hand pull tension and use fingers to tie off knots.

However, it may mean you will have to call yourself a tool!

 

[mad dog1]

Why not eschew all tool use? Hand pull tension and use fingers to tie off knots.

However, it may mean you will have to call yourself a tool!

Ttps has achieved this status long ago! Next level achieved? Super Tool!

 

[TimeToPlaySets]

I've tried pulling both ends of the starting knot with my fingers, but the knot does not compress to anywhere proper size.
Way too loose. That is why I just skip right to the tensioner, since that is ultimately what is going to tighten it anyway.

Is there a video out there showing someone actually tightening a starting knot by hand?

 

[mad dog1]

Jim E is easily one of the top posters in this section for info and timetoactlikeanass just ignores his advice and continues to say the same thing over and over.

Stringing is hard and takes time to learn. But i figured it out because I didn’t argue with people who have way more experience than I do and instead listened and did what they said.

@jim e is a class act through and through.

@TimeToPlaySets is a class @SS through and through.

 

[jim e]

^^

Hard to imagine a worse way to do it.

I agree. Lots of luck convincing him it is that bad to do. After all he has strung 2 racquets with gut with that awful technique.

 

[kevin]

I've tried pulling both ends of the starting knot with my fingers, but the knot does not compress to anywhere proper size.
Way too loose. That is why I just skip right to the tensioner, since that is ultimately what is going to tighten it anyway.

Is there a video out there showing someone actually tightening a starting knot by hand?

Just my 2 cents and stringing experience of 6 months.

When I try starting knot method then I sure need the help of the tensioner to tighten. But this method is not working for me as I see my grommet destroyed. If this works for you and grommet stay good, then good for you.

Personally I prefer the starting clamp way.

Sent from my SM-N9005 using Tapatalk

 

[am1899]

In fairness I think I misunderstood.

As I re-read, TTPS says:

I use the drop weight to pull one end of the string, and I yank the end of the string with a tool then cut.

If I understand correctly then, the tag end of the knot is not being inserted into the tension head to cinch the knot.

Still, in my view it is preferable to tighten the starting knot by hand to set it into the grommet before pulling tension with the machine. Loosely tying a knot and then immediately pulling tension on it - before it is seated against the grommet, opens the possibility of some undesirable outcomes (however unlikely they are).

 

[TimeToPlaySets]

What is the tag end ?
Is it the end of the string?
The part where the arrow ends?
If so, obviously that is not being tensioned, as it's a little stub and will never reach the tensioner !!

Once more, the first cross is being pulled by the tensioner.
The other tip end of the string, at the knot side, is yanked by plier.
This is the only way I see possible to tighten a starting knot.

I still have no idea what alternate method anyone is suggesting.

How do you tighten a starting knot when NOT using a starting clamp?

 

[Power Player]

Its just a lot easier to start with a starting clamp. I switched to it from this thread when it started and i have not looked back. If you string frames without a starting clamp you are doing yourself a disservice. Thats just experience talking in my case.

 

[am1899]

What is the tag end ?
Is it the end of the string?
The part where the arrow ends?
If so, obviously that is not being tensioned, as it's a little stub and will never reach the tensioner !!

Yes the tag end is the part of the string you cut to trim the knot. Some people do in fact take that end of the string, put it in the tensioner, and apply tension to cinch the knot. Which is a terrible idea. But I now understand that’s not what you’re doing.

What you’re doing is fine. Although, as I said, if it were me, I would tie the knot and tighten it by hand first before applying machine tension. The goal of this is to get the knot formed and seated against the grommet. This also gives you a chance to make sure you’ve tied the knot correctly - if you have made a mistake with tying the knot, you can probably still back it out and re-tie it at this point. If you skip right to pulling tension, and the knot isn’t tied correctly, you might be in for a surprise.

 

[TimeToPlaySets]

Agreed, that seems like overkill.
Once the knot is tied, I just give a finger yank and it's good to go.

I do tighten it by hand by yanking both ends before tensioning the first cross
but that is clearly not enough, and the tensioner is required to tighten the knot fully.

 

[Dags]

The knot you have depicted above is a finishing knot. It is not recommended for use as a starting knot as it is not that large and so there is a greater risk of it being pulled into the grommet. A couple of videos by YULitle give you some alternatives:

YULitle also has a video on how to start the crosses with a starting knot. From this comment:

I do tighten it by hand by yanking both ends before tensioning the first cross
but that is clearly not enough, and the tensioner is required to tighten the knot fully.

it does sound like you might be doing it in the same way after all. Have a watch, and you can decide whether you need to refine your technique or not.

I highly recommend that anyone browse his channel. The videos are excellent, and answer a large number of stringing queries.

https://www.youtube.com/user/YULitle/videos

 

[TimeToPlaySets]

He did a bulky knot.
I use the standard starting knot.

I'll try using pliers on the tag end,
and pull the string on the outside of the racket, like in the video.
I was pulling on the inside of the hoop, and you can't really get a grip

 

[Irvin]

He did a bulky knot.
I use the standard starting knot.

Both knots are hard to cinch up. Why not use a knot that will tighten itself when you tension the top cross?

 

[dak95_00]

He did a bulky knot.
I use the standard starting knot.

I'll try using pliers on the tag end,
and pull the string on the outside of the racket, like in the video.
I was pulling on the inside of the hoop, and you can't really get a grip

This is what I do. I also drop the tension to 1/2 of the desired tension and pull. It seems to cinch it up nicely without destroying the grommet and then I reset the tension to the desired tension and pull again. This makes it very unlikely that it either smashes the grommet or goes into the grommet.

I have a starting clamp but sometimes I prefer to use as little string as possible and it's also no fun to wait until I've started crosses to learn there's an issue and I can't get the string into the knot tying hole. While that is rare, it's still a pain. It's most likely to happen with a cheap natural gut or other fiberous string such as kevlar. I'm stringing from reels 90% of the time and wasting string is an issue I try to avoid by using techniques and keeping good notes.

 

[TimeToPlaySets]

I'll try using pliers on the tag end,
and pull the string on the outside of the racket, like in the video.
I was pulling on the inside of the hoop, and you can't really get a grip

I did this tonight, and it worked well.
Got the knot much tighter before using the tensioner on the first cross.

Thanks!

 

[max]

I've got a Klippermate and we use a starting pin that does the trick. the only reason I would want a starting clamp is to hold together string, if I had not enough at the end of doing crosses.

 

[Irvin]

I did this tonight, and it worked well.
Got the knot much tighter before using the tensioner on the first cross.

Thanks!

You’re doing it the hard way. Tie a VS starting knot, pull tension on the top or second cross while just holding the tag end, clamp strings.

 

[TimeToPlaySets]

I'm going to stick with the popular starting knot

 

[jim e]

I'm going to stick with the popular starting knot

Just what is" the popular starting knot" in your opinion?
The post above, #135 you posted a picture of the so called Parnell Knot. That knot is one of the most popular finishing knots.
I just don't want others on these boards , especially new stringers, to be confused about your posts on what is proper starting knot.
A starting knot is typically a bulky knot so knot does not pull into the grommet. @Irvin post on vs starting knot is one of the least bulky of the starting knots. A Parnell knot is for finishing.I do not use a starting knot as all my ends are finishing, and all knots are the same, looks neat and the Parnell knot cinches up easily.I will use the pro knot in tight spaces, and others are Parnell. Used that knot since 1968, so it has proven over time to me.

 

[TimeToPlaySets]

This is the starting knot I use.
See how he tightens the non-tag end INSIDE the hoop?
I will now yank from the outside of the hoop, and plier the tag end.
Gives more tightness before tensioning.