Is the best doubles team of all time actually John Newcombe and whoever he plays with?

[buscemi]

John McEnroe's longtime doubles partner Peter Fleming was famously quoted as saying that the best doubles team is John McEnroe and whoever he's playing with. And, sure, McEnroe was amazing at doubles, tallying 9 doubles Majors, 5 at Wimbledon and 4 at the U.S. Open. But then, you have John Newcombe, who won 17 doubles Majors (5 Australian, 3 French, 6 Wimbledon, and 3 U.S. Opens).

Looking at partners, McEnroe won his first 7 Majors with Fleming, then (1) the 1989 U.S. Open with 12 time doubles Major champion Mark Woodforde; and (2) Wimbledon 1992 with Olympic doubles gold medalist Michael Stich.

Meanwhile, Newk won 12 doubles Majors with his longtime partner Tony Roche. He also won doubles Majors with Ken Fletcher, Roger Taylor, Mal Anderson, Owen Davidson, and Tom Okker.

I feel like McEnroe gets a lot of credit under the thinking that he carried Fleming. But this seems to underrate Fleming to me. Right before he teamed up with McEnroe, Fleming played Monte Carlo in 1978 with Tomáš Šmíd where they took the title with a straight set win over Năstase and Fillol. The next year, with McEnroe not playing the European clay circuit, Fleming teamed with Šmíd again to take the Italian Open title over Clerc and Năstase. Through the years, Fleming won a decent number of titles at events with other partners. Then, when he finally played a Major w/out McEnroe during the latter's break in 1986, Fleming teamed up with Gary Donnelly to make it all the way to the Wimbledon final.

Overall, I feel like Fleming was a pretty solid doubles player, and, as shown above, Newk was able to win a number of Major doubles titles with partners who were not nearly on his level.

So, while McEnroe was obviously an incredible doubles player, should we be giving Newk the nod as the best individual doubles player of all time?

 

[jrepac]

You may be right!

 

[BTURNER]

John McEnroe's longtime doubles partner Peter Fleming was famously quoted as saying that the best doubles team is John McEnroe and whoever he's playing with. And, sure, McEnroe was amazing at doubles, tallying 9 doubles Majors, 5 at Wimbledon and 4 at the U.S. Open. But then, you have John Newcombe, who won 17 doubles Majors (5 Australian, 3 French, 6 Wimbledon, and 3 U.S. Opens).

Looking at partners, McEnroe won his first 7 Majors with Fleming, then (1) the 1989 U.S. Open with 12 time doubles Major champion Mark Woodforde; and (2) Wimbledon 1992 with Olympic doubles gold medalist Michael Stich.

Meanwhile, Newk won 12 doubles Majors with his longtime partner Tony Roche. He also won doubles Majors with Ken Fletcher, Roger Taylor, Mal Anderson, Owen Davidson, and Tom Okker.

I feel like McEnroe gets a lot of credit under the thinking that he carried Fleming. But this seems to underrate Fleming to me. Right before he teamed up with McEnroe, Fleming played Monte Carlo in 1978 with Tomáš Šmíd where they took the title with a straight set win over Năstase and Fillol. The next year, with McEnroe not playing the European clay circuit, Fleming teamed with Šmíd again to take the Italian Open title over Clerc and Năstase. Through the years, Fleming won a decent number of titles at events with other partners. Then, when he finally played a Major w/out McEnroe during the latter's break in 1986, Fleming teamed up with Gary Donnelly to make it all the way to the Wimbledon final.

Overall, I feel like Fleming was a pretty solid doubles player, and, as shown above, Newk was able to win a number of Major doubles titles with partners who were not nearly on his level.

So, while McEnroe was obviously an incredible doubles player, should we be giving Newk the nod as the best individual doubles player of all time?

So its break point down and you and your partner are playing Fleming and McEnroe. Who are you two going to target and pepper whenever a choice presents itself? Its safe to assume everyone else made that same decision on most big points all throughout their partnership. I think players like Fleming and Shriver do not get nearly enough credit in these partnerships. Not infrequently, Martina and John were bouncing around and doing not much else on volley exchanges on a lot of big points.

 

[buscemi]

So its break point down and you and your partner are playing Fleming and McEnroe. Who are you two going to target and pepper whenever a choice presents itself? Its safe to assume everyone else made that same decision on most big points all throughout their partnership. I think players like Fleming and Shriver do not get nearly enough credit in these partnerships. Not infrequently, Martina and John were bouncing around and doing not much else on volley exchanges on a lot of big points.

Sure, I'm not doubting that I'm targeting Fleming. But I'm also targeting Roche, Taylor, Davidson, or whoever else in partnered with Newcombe.

 

[martinezownsclay]

Sure, I'm not doubting that I'm targeting Fleming. But I'm also targeting Roche, Taylor, Davidson, or whoever else in partnered with Newcombe.

It is relative. I am sure that was true, but I do think, especialy given the calibre of some of Newcombe's partners, the same was much more true of McEnroe and Fleming.

 

[buscemi]

It is relative. I am sure that was true, but I do think, especialy given the calibre of some of Newcombe's partners, the same was much more true of McEnroe and Fleming.

I agree that Fleming was likely targeted more than McEnroe to a greater degree than Roche was targeted more than Newcombe.

But, I'd guess that Newcombe was targeted more than Fletcher, Taylor, Anderson, Davidson, and Okker to a greater degree than Woodforde or Stich were targeted more than McEnroe.

 

[Dan Lobb]

John McEnroe's longtime doubles partner Peter Fleming was famously quoted as saying that the best doubles team is John McEnroe and whoever he's playing with. And, sure, McEnroe was amazing at doubles, tallying 9 doubles Majors, 5 at Wimbledon and 4 at the U.S. Open. But then, you have John Newcombe, who won 17 doubles Majors (5 Australian, 3 French, 6 Wimbledon, and 3 U.S. Opens).

Looking at partners, McEnroe won his first 7 Majors with Fleming, then (1) the 1989 U.S. Open with 12 time doubles Major champion Mark Woodforde; and (2) Wimbledon 1992 with Olympic doubles gold medalist Michael Stich.

Meanwhile, Newk won 12 doubles Majors with his longtime partner Tony Roche. He also won doubles Majors with Ken Fletcher, Roger Taylor, Mal Anderson, Owen Davidson, and Tom Okker.

I feel like McEnroe gets a lot of credit under the thinking that he carried Fleming. But this seems to underrate Fleming to me. Right before he teamed up with McEnroe, Fleming played Monte Carlo in 1978 with Tomáš Šmíd where they took the title with a straight set win over Năstase and Fillol. The next year, with McEnroe not playing the European clay circuit, Fleming teamed with Šmíd again to take the Italian Open title over Clerc and Năstase. Through the years, Fleming won a decent number of titles at events with other partners. Then, when he finally played a Major w/out McEnroe during the latter's break in 1986, Fleming teamed up with Gary Donnelly to make it all the way to the Wimbledon final.

Overall, I feel like Fleming was a pretty solid doubles player, and, as shown above, Newk was able to win a number of Major doubles titles with partners who were not nearly on his level.

So, while McEnroe was obviously an incredible doubles player, should we be giving Newk the nod as the best individual doubles player of all time?

There were other names in the mix.
Rosewall won 24 major doubles titles (over 20 seasons), Hoad won 21 (over 14 seasons), Mike Bryan won 18 (over 15 seasons).
Rosewall and Hoad won 15 together, the Bryan brothers 16 together.

 

[King_olaf_the_hairy]

I always thought Roy Emerson was rather impressive at this. Here's the list of Men's Doubles champions at Roland Garros for 1960–65...

EDIT: liking all this recent doubles content, by the way.

 

[BTURNER]

All of these nominees have penises, folks.

 

[Drob]

Don Budge: 4 amateur majors w Gene Mako, and 9 doubles titles at the traditionally recognized Pro Slams (6 US Pro, 2 French Pro, 1 Wembley, with six different partners).

Jean Borotra: 9 traditional majors with three different partners

Vincent Richards: 7 amateur Slams w 4 different partners and 6 US Pro w 5 different partners (no overlap from amateur partners)
= 12 Majors w 9 different partners

Tilden: 6 amateur Slams w 3 different partners; 5 Pro Slams w 4 different partners (one overlap - Vinnie Richards)

Frank Sedgman: 7 consecutive traditional majors with Ken McGregor and 3 Pro Slams with three different partners

Roy Emerson: 14 amateur majors with five different partners, and 2 Open Slams w Laver. 13-2 DC doubles w 4 different partners.

Jonas Bjorkman: 9 Slams w 4 different partners

Anders Jarryd: 8 Slams w 4 different partners

Mate Pavic: 3 Slams w 3 different partners

Roche: 13 Slams w 2 partners

Lew Hoad: 8 traditional Slams w 3 partners and 13 Pro Slams with 2 partners (Rosewall in 16 of the 22)

Rosewall: 16 with Hoad, 1 Pro Slam w Gonzalez, 1 Pro Slam w Laver, 2 Opens w Fred Stolle, 1 Open w Owen Davidson

John Bromwich: 16 traditional majors with 3 different partners (usually Adrian Quist) and 20-1 DC doubles record w at least 4 different partners.

For Doubles Team to Play for Earth's Survival: Jack Kramer in late 1970s nominated John Bromwich and Don Budge. The Game p. 175. Does anyone know if these two ever played together?

Jack Kramer is actually an interesting case: 6 amateur Slams with 4 different partners! And 3 Pro Slams with 3 different partners.

 

[BauerAlmeida]

The Bryans.

 

[Cashman]

The Bryans.

lol they are spuds

dominated a garbage field by being best of the worst

 

[ey039524]

lol they are spuds

dominated a garbage field by being best of the worst

Modern doubles is played how they played: on top of the net. Game changers.

 

[Dan Lobb]

Don Budge: 4 amateur majors w Gene Mako, and 9 doubles titles at the traditionally recognized Pro Slams (6 US Pro, 2 French Pro, 1 Wembley, with six different partners).

Jean Borotra: 9 traditional majors with three different partners

Vincent Richards: 7 amateur Slams w 4 different partners and 6 US Pro w 5 different partners (no overlap from amateur partners)
= 12 Majors w 9 different partners

Tilden: 6 amateur Slams w 3 different partners; 5 Pro Slams w 4 different partners (one overlap - Vinnie Richards)

Frank Sedgman: 7 consecutive traditional majors with Ken McGregor and 3 Pro Slams with three different partners

Roy Emerson: 14 amateur majors with five different partners, and 2 Open Slams w Laver. 13-2 DC doubles w 4 different partners.

Jonas Bjorkman: 9 Slams w 4 different partners

Anders Jarryd: 8 Slams w 4 different partners

Mate Pavic: 3 Slams w 3 different partners

Roche: 13 Slams w 2 partners

Lew Hoad: 8 traditional Slams w 3 partners and 13 Pro Slams with 2 partners (Rosewall in 16 of the 22)

Rosewall: 16 with Hoad, 1 Pro Slam w Gonzalez, 1 Pro Slam w Laver, 2 Opens w Fred Stolle, 1 Open w Owen Davidson

John Bromwich: 16 traditional majors with 3 different partners (usually Adrian Quist) and 20-1 DC doubles record w at least 4 different partners.

For Doubles Team to Play for Earth's Survival: Jack Kramer in late 1970s nominated John Bromwich and Don Budge. The Game p. 175. Does anyone know if these two ever played together?

Jack Kramer is actually an interesting case: 6 amateur Slams with 4 different partners! And 3 Pro Slams with 3 different partners.

That Hoad total should be 21, not 22. If you include the Forest Hills in 1959 you would get 22. Rosewall with 24 in total.

Hoad held the record for most consecutive major pro slams in doubles in one tournament with seven straight French Pro doubles titles, 1960-66.

 

[socallefty]

Modern doubles is played how they played: on top of the net. Game changers.

Have you watched ant ATP doubles lately? The return team always plays 2-back on 1st serves and on many 2nd serves against big servers. Sometimes the server plays 1-back on 2nd serves. The serves, returns and baseline shots have become so big that the tide has turned alway from the 2 at-net strategy you saw a decade or two ago. It is getting that way in men’s college tennis in the US also.

 

[BeatlesFan]

The best doubles team I ever saw was Mac-Fleming simply because Mac was sublime and Peter Fleming had a huge wingspan at net and anticipated very, very well. The second best doubles team for me was Edberg-Jarryd. I never saw the Bryans play live and never was interested to. Doubles died in the 90's when the top players stopped participating in it. I don't know enough about Newk to comment on his doubles prowess.

 

[ey039524]

Have you watched ant ATP doubles lately? The return team always plays 2-back on 1st serves and on many 2nd serves against big servers. Sometimes the server plays 1-back on 2nd serves. The serves, returns and baseline shots have become so big that the tide has turned alway from the 2 at-net strategy you saw a decade or two ago. It is getting that way in men’s college tennis in the US also.

Yeah, that's all I watch on tennistv. Server's partner parks at the net. Server s&v's, or tries to come in after. Most points are won on serve +1, the +1 being the net partner putting away the volley on top of the net. Classic Bryan brothers dubs.

Watch Ram/Salisbury, Koolhof/Skupski, or Dodig/Krajicek. Still looking to attack the net ASAP.

 

[ScentOfDefeat]

Don Budge: 4 amateur majors w Gene Mako, and 9 doubles titles at the traditionally recognized Pro Slams (6 US Pro, 2 French Pro, 1 Wembley, with six different partners).

Jean Borotra: 9 traditional majors with three different partners

Vincent Richards: 7 amateur Slams w 4 different partners and 6 US Pro w 5 different partners (no overlap from amateur partners)
= 12 Majors w 9 different partners

Tilden: 6 amateur Slams w 3 different partners; 5 Pro Slams w 4 different partners (one overlap - Vinnie Richards)

Frank Sedgman: 7 consecutive traditional majors with Ken McGregor and 3 Pro Slams with three different partners

Roy Emerson: 14 amateur majors with five different partners, and 2 Open Slams w Laver. 13-2 DC doubles w 4 different partners.

Jonas Bjorkman: 9 Slams w 4 different partners

Anders Jarryd: 8 Slams w 4 different partners

Mate Pavic: 3 Slams w 3 different partners

Roche: 13 Slams w 2 partners

Lew Hoad: 8 traditional Slams w 3 partners and 13 Pro Slams with 2 partners (Rosewall in 16 of the 22)

Rosewall: 16 with Hoad, 1 Pro Slam w Gonzalez, 1 Pro Slam w Laver, 2 Opens w Fred Stolle, 1 Open w Owen Davidson

John Bromwich: 16 traditional majors with 3 different partners (usually Adrian Quist) and 20-1 DC doubles record w at least 4 different partners.

For Doubles Team to Play for Earth's Survival: Jack Kramer in late 1970s nominated John Bromwich and Don Budge. The Game p. 175. Does anyone know if these two ever played together?

Jack Kramer is actually an interesting case: 6 amateur Slams with 4 different partners! And 3 Pro Slams with 3 different partners.

No Woodies? By far the best doubles team in the world while I was growing up.

 

[Drob]

No Woodies? By far the best doubles team in the world while I was growing up.

Sure. I was only looking for players who teamed up with maybe three different partners to win a Major. Is why I did not mention them. Woodies are swell. Record as good as Bryans, or roughly any way. Plus Woodbridge went one to win a half-dozen Majors w Jarryd, so put him ahead of Bryans.

Ram-Salisbury doing pretty well at this time. 4 Slams and 2 ATP Finals titles in last 3-4 years.

 

[ScentOfDefeat]

Sure. I was only looking for players who teamed up with maybe three different partners to win a Major. Is why I did not mention them. Woodies are swell. Record as good as Bryans, or roughly any way. Plus Woodbridge went one to win a half-dozen Majors w Jarryd, so put him ahead of Bryans.

Ram-Salisbury doing pretty well at this time. 4 Slams and 2 ATP Finals titles in last 3-4 years.

With Björkman, of course. But yeah, I find Woodbridge extremely underrated when talking about great doubles players.
The guy has a top 5 (if not top 3) overall resume.

 

[Drob]

Jarryd a little old. You know, I was thinking of John Fitzgerald. Eight Slam titles with three different partners is not bad - majority with Jarryd.

And, let's not forget the other half - Woodforde has one Slam w McEnroe.

 

[buscemi]

With Björkman, of course. But yeah, I find Woodbridge extremely underrated when talking about great doubles players.
The guy has a top 5 (if not top 3) overall resume.

Does anyone doubt that Woodbridge has a top 5 or 6 doubles resume if we're focusing on players who won at least one doubles Major in the Open Era? Looking at just resume (not skill, quality of opponents, etc.), that list in alphabetical order would be:

Bob Bryan​

Mike Bryan​

Roy Emerson​

John Newcombe​

Ken Rosewall​

Todd Woodbridge​

 

[ScentOfDefeat]

Jarryd a little old. You know, I was thinking of John Fitzgerald. Eight Slam titles with three different partners is not bad - majority with Jarryd.

And, let's not forget the other half - Woodforde has one Slam w McEnroe.

Woodforde is an interesting player, because while the other half of the Woodies won more doubles titles and has a better overall doubles career, I feel like Mark's peak moments in singles were more impressive than his partner's.

 

[ScentOfDefeat]

Does anyone doubt that Woodbridge has a top 5 or 6 doubles resume if we're focusing on players who won at least one doubles Major in the Open Era? Looking at just resume (not skill, quality of opponents, etc.), that list in alphabetical order would be:

Bob Bryan​

Mike Bryan​

Roy Emerson​

John Newcombe​

Ken Rosewall​

Todd Woodbridge​

Yeah, I have no doubt, but I feel like his Wikipedia article could give him a little more praise. Something like "he is recognised as one of the greatest ever doubles players" wouldn't be an exaggeration, and that usually appears as the first or second line for great singles players (but I suppose this is more of a singles vs. doubles problem rather than a Woodbridge problem). Olympic gold, as well as winning multiple Slams with different partners and 6 mixed doubles Slams put him in the top 3 for me.