Is this the most obnoxious generation?

[Enlightened Coelacanth]

Lendl? I don't think you ever watched Ivan Lendl play. Asking the chair umpire, with his Latka Gravas-like accent, "Why you call this out?" was about as close to a "tantrum" as he ever got.

Swing and a miss.

*Reposted for relevance. Lendl was tightly wound and did not waste his time with temper tantrums and misbehavior.
If anything, people found him cold, robotic and all business.

I don't know how this revisionist version of Ivan Lendl has sprung up.

 

[Chopin]

*Reposted for relevance. Lendl was tightly wound and did not waste his time with temper tantrums and misbehavior.
If anything, people found him cold, robotic and all business.

I don't know how this revisionist version of Ivan Lendl has sprung up.

Incorrect. Lendl did, in fact, throw tantrums (or at least have some outbursts). Perhaps tantrums is too strong a word. But to suggest that he never misbehaved is farcical.

Of course, Sampras, too, dropped some "F Bombs" on officials on occasion and stared down opponents.

Today's guys are no worse. This thread is yet another out of touch, nostalgia filled patina.

 

[krosero]

*Reposted for relevance. Lendl was tightly wound and did not waste his time with temper tantrums and misbehavior.
If anything, people found him cold, robotic and all business.

I don't know how this revisionist version of Ivan Lendl has sprung up.

It's simply not true that Lendl never came close to a tantrum. Everything that Moose listed above is a part of the record and can be checked -- and I think Moose was quite correct where he placed Lendl: not as bad as McEnroe but certainly not as quiet as Borg or Edberg.

I will never forget that '89 match in Dallas against McEnroe. After what he thought was bad call, he was so enraged, he rounded on Gerry Armstrong and lifted his voice to a hoarse fury. It was scary, in the sense that I think Moose meant it -- not perhaps for the umpire who knows how to deal with such things, but scary to watch (perhaps to some degree because Lendl did not do it all the time, but also because, yes, it was a bona fide temper tantrum -- and not a mild one -- coming from a great champion).

Lendl got penalized the next point for an obscenity; he denied uttering it and refused to play, for which he was docked the game.

In his previous match against Jakob Hlasek, he'd also been assessed a game penalty.

The actual revisionist history on Lendl may be coming in the future, because so many people go to YouTube for tennis history, and on YouTube the time between points often gets cut out. That 85 AO match, where Moose said Lendl complained as much as he ever saw anyone do, is now on YouTube -- but just the tennis, none of the stuff in between points. In our YouTube culture I think it's probably going to get easier and easier to forget Lendl's behavior and to remember just his tennis.

Here's a link to a 1982 article about Lendl stopping play for ten minutes and eventually giving the finger to the crowd: http://news.google.com/newspapers?i...AAAIBAJ&pg=5425,181334&dq=lendl+tantrum&hl=en ("Lendl Joins Tennis Bad Boys").

 

[krosero]

And another example not yet mentioned:

http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/...ng-in-buildup-to-the-french-open-1456929.html

During the second set Lendl's temper became as short as some of the points. After two netted forehands caused him to lose serve in the third game, he hurled his racket about 20 yards and was given a code violation. He then lifted the racket and belted a Coca-Cola refrigerator.

Lendl blamed a television crew for causing him to lose concentration - 'with lights straight on to the court, blinding even in the daylight, and speaking really loud over the loudspeaker' - though this was one of the few dazzling moments of the match.

After the tantrum Lendl managed to break Bruguera's serve, but even then a broken string contributed to the Spaniard's directing a forehand over the baseline at the end of a rally comprising more than 50 languid shots.

 

[Chopin]

It's simply not true that Lendl never came close to a tantrum. Everything that Moose listed above is a part of the record and can be checked -- and I think Moose was quite correct where he placed Lendl: not as bad as McEnroe but certainly not as quiet as Borg or Edberg.

I will never forget that '89 match in Dallas against McEnroe. After what he thought was bad call, he was so enraged, he rounded on Gerry Armstrong and lifted his voice to a hoarse fury. It was scary, in the sense that I think Moose meant it -- not perhaps for the umpire who knows how to deal with such things, but scary to watch (perhaps to some degree because Lendl did not do it all the time, but also because, yes, it was a bona fide temper tantrum -- and not a mild one -- coming from a great champion).

Lendl got penalized the next point for an obscenity; he denied uttering it and refused to play, for which he was docked the game.

In his previous match against Jakob Hlasek, he'd also been assessed a game penalty.

The actual revisionist history on Lendl may be coming in the future, because so many people go to YouTube for tennis history, and on YouTube the time between points often gets cut out. That 85 AO match, where Moose said Lendl complained as much as he ever saw anyone do, is now on YouTube -- but just the tennis, none of the stuff in between points. In our YouTube culture I think it's probably going to get easier and easier to forget Lendl's behavior and to remember just his tennis.

Here's a link to a 1982 article about Lendl stopping play for ten minutes and eventually giving the finger to the crowd: http://news.google.com/newspapers?i...AAAIBAJ&pg=5425,181334&dq=lendl+tantrum&hl=en ("Lendl Joins Tennis Bad Boys").

Interesting post.

I just really have a problem with this thread because I think it's a perfect example of the bias that certain posters here have against tennis today. It's such a huge stretch to argue that today's guys are the worst ever! I'm not saying they're much better, but to say that they're the worst strikes me as a claim that is 1) out of touch and/or 2) showing bias.

I like the old time players, too! That's a misconception about me, that I don't love tennis from all eras. I do. I'd just like some of the Historians to understand that they're doing the same thing they accuse the younger generations of doing: showing bias towards a particular generation.

 

[borg number one]

Yeah, Lendl definitely "went off" at times. Krosero's point as to how YouTube tends to remove the time between points is a very good one. He could suddenly get very angry on the court, especially towards his opponent. He seemed to play with a constant, quiet anger, but he definitely won a lot and he was truly a great player. He came very close to closing the deal at Wimbledon, and he was a monster on clay, hard and indoor courts.

Here's an example Krosero:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-1sIFtKpwik

He probably saw some rough times growing up, which tends to make you somewhat of a "fighter". See this short biography. His tennis upbringing was not "cushy" so to speak. We are products of our environments.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Si7xUuuwMbA

 

[Chopin]

Yeah, Lendl definitely "went off" at times. Krosero's point as to how YouTube tends to remove the time between points is a very good one. He could suddenly get very angry on the court, especially towards his opponent. He seemed to play with a constant, quiet anger, but he definitely won a lot and he was truly a great player. He came very close to closing the deal at Wimbledon, and he was a monster on clay, hard and indoor courts.

Here's an example Krosero:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-1sIFtKpwik

He probably saw some rough times growing up, which tends to make you somewhat of a "fighter". See this short biography:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Si7xUuuwMbA

Borg--I'd be thrilled to hear your take on Llendl's upbringing and how it shaped him as a player.

 

[pc1]

89 Dallas sf against McEnroe is another good example, he was so enraged he lost control.

And there was Lendl's habit of drilling forehands into McEnroe's chest at the net.

To say the least that was very mean. I have a vague memory of McEnroe taking a swing volley and aiming at Lendl in their match at Wimbledon in 1983. If that's true, I guess it was a get even shot.

I guess I was wrong with my previous post here. I forgot about some of these incidents with Lendl.

 

[krosero]

To say the least that was very mean. I have a vague memory of McEnroe taking a swing volley and aiming at Lendl in their match at Wimbledon in 1983. If that's true, I guess it was a get even shot.

I know Lendl deliberately knocked McEnroe down twice with forehands, both times in Dallas ('83 and '89). He also seems to have a reputation for aiming at players generally, though I don't know of any other incidents (he beaned Gerulaitis in a Masters final but that was thought to be an accident).

I don't remember McEnroe taking a swing volley at '83W, but if so it was only what, two or three months after Lendl knocked him down in Dallas.

 

[borg number one]

Borg--I'd be thrilled to hear your take on Llendl's upbringing and how it shaped him as a player.

Well Chopin, that is interesting to think about isn't it? Why was he the way he was on the court. He was usually quite reserved and didn't reveal too much, but he often wore a definite "scowl" and he had a blistering stare as well. Yet, he would get very angry at times when the match was not going his way.

Lendl grew up in the Czech Republic, which was a communist country in the 1960's. So, that's a start in terms of understanding his "demeanor" or perspective, as he grew up there during the 1960's. Of course, he later became a U.S. citizen. The Czech republic is now a representative democracy.

See this excerpt from Wikipedia:

"In a 1948 coup d'état, Czechoslovakia became a communist-ruled state. In 1968, the increasing dissatisfaction culminated in attempts to reform the communist regime. The events, known as the Prague Spring of 1968, ended with an invasion by the armies of the Warsaw Pact countries (with the exception of Romania); the troops remained in the country until the 1989 Velvet Revolution, when the communist regime collapsed. On 1 January 1993, Czechoslovakia peacefully dissolved into its constituent states, the Czech Republic and Slovakia."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Czech_Republic


If you watch that video of him above (the short bio), you'll see very "spartan" surroundings and it doesn't look like a lot of "fun places" to hand out. He talks about there only being bare courts and a small club. He seemed to only focus on his work/craft, with little else to distract him as he kept striving to reach #1 after winning the Orange Bowl in 1976. Yet, his demeanor was also likely due to his own personality, since a player like Jan Kodes from the Czech Republic, was not quite so..."intense" or "difficult" at times.

Then, listen to how he trained when he was a teenager there. It was all about tennis and schoolwork, for many hours a day, with a laser-like focus and very high goals. He was obviously very focused on being a top player. So, he brought that intensity and single-mindedness to the pro ranks with him, and this focus and intensity helped him to literally "outwork" a lot of players both on the court and off the court. He trained like crazy to become so formidable and his personality, though viewed as "difficult" or "robotic" at times also was vital in him reaching the heights of the Game. If he had been very different in his approach, he would have likely much more liked, but quite possibly not nearly as successful as he turned out to be.

 

[dana]

I wouldn't call celebrating a point with a fist pump bad behavior, but the "come ons" do get old. Some players celebrate winning a point like they just won the match, even when they are behind. I can see trying to pump yourself up a little, but after every point just gets a little tiresome.

 

[krosero]

Things like throwing a racquet or arguing the umpire never bothered me much either. Well...I thought it was poor behavior...but somehow, but oh well, arguing about line calls...I don't really care...somehow I find the excessive fist-pumping, chest pounding, and screaming much more annoying (perhaps from the perspective of a competitive player?)....and mildly embarassing. Again...I expect that from 15 yr old juniors...I just expect "adults" to have a bit more restraint and class!

I do think the chest pounding is overdone. I have a friend who always finds it ridiculous, and while I can take some of it, why is it so excessive? Why so often during a match, and why among so many of the top players? So I do have the same impression as you, that fist-pumping happened twenty years ago too, but that it just seems like a STYLE today -- and not one that's flattering to the sport. So again, I mostly tolerate it (it's not awful), but it's interesting that when I show tennis highlights to my non-tennis friends, I have that same sensation you do .... how did you put it .... "mildly embarrassing."

Yet I agree with the other posters who emphasized that young tennis players ARE immature. So mostly when I see it, I just let it pass -- or when a TRULY remarkable point occurs, then it seems a little more justifiable ... but mostly it's just getting old. It's one reason I appreciate Federer. No chest thumping.

Having said this (it does bother me on some level), I want to add that I can't forget just how bad Mac and Connors got in the 70s and 80s. Nobody following tennis in '86 can forget Connors going insane at Lipton, getting disqualified, and BANNED from the sport for months. It was nasty behavior and the punishment was (appropriately) severe.

Several episodes stick in the memory from those years. McEnroe may have been "entertaining" in a negative sense, but when you just wanted to see tennis it was incredibly grating to have him stall everything.

At least today they've got Hawkeye (in the big matches). Players today get on with play after close calls that in the past would have often provoked a rage or at least a halt in play -- and when play resumed there would be no emotional resolution. The tension would linger. Technology has helped that way.

And that may be one more way in which it's hard to compare generations. In the early Open Era there was no Hawkeye and the officiating was much worse than it is today. Put today's players in those same conditions, is there any reason to believe that wouldn't have behaved with their own immaturity?

 

[krosero]

I have tapes from the 80s where Becker or Lendl basically do this like only once or twice a match(only after a really great point or a big point) & Tony Trabert basically laughs at them, he finds it so odd. I wonder what he thinks of todays players.

I remember Pat Summerall talking to Trabert about whether people did the big fist-pumping celebrations back in the day (the 50s). One of them said if you did that back then, you'd be considered a hot dog.

That's an old-style attitude -- and not it in a bad way.

Winning -- just winning with quiet grace -- seems a forgotten value.

It just seems so contrived when players do this every on every other point, I guess sports psychologists are partly to blame for it. I also see this on public parks a lot more than 20 years ago, go figure. I wonder if teaching pros actually teach this sort of thing.

Interesting point about sports psychologists.

 

[Datacipher]

I do think the chest pounding is overdone. I have a friend who always finds it ridiculous, and while I can take some of it, why is it so excessive? Why so often during a match, and why among so many of the top players? So I do have the same impression as you, that fist-pumping happened twenty years ago too, but that it just seems like a STYLE today -- and not one that's flattering to the sport. So again, I mostly tolerate it (it's not awful), but it's interesting that when I show tennis highlights to my non-tennis friends, I have that same sensation you do .... how did you put it .... "mildly embarrassing."

Yet I agree with the other posters who emphasized that young tennis players ARE immature. So mostly when I see it, I just let it pass -- or when a TRULY remarkable point occurs, then it seems a little more justifiable ... but mostly it's just getting old. It's one reason I appreciate Federer. No chest thumping.

Having said this (it does bother me on some level), I want to add that I can't forget just how bad Mac and Connors got in the 70s and 80s. Nobody following tennis in '86 can forget Connors going insane at Lipton, getting disqualified, and BANNED from the sport for months. It was nasty behavior and the punishment was (appropriately) severe.

Several episodes stick in the memory from those years. McEnroe may have been "entertaining" in a negative sense, but when you just wanted to see tennis it was incredibly grating to have him stall everything.

At least today they've got Hawkeye (in the big matches). Players today get on with play after close calls that in the past would have often provoked a rage or at least a halt in play -- and when play resumed there would be no emotional resolution. The tension would linger. Technology has helped that way.

And that may be one more way in which it's hard to compare generations. In the early Open Era there was no Hawkeye and the officiating was much worse than it is today. Put today's players in those same conditions, is there any reason to believe that wouldn't have behaved with their own immaturity?

Yes. As I mentioned in the OP, nobody condones Mac or Connors...and undoubtedly they were worse overall, but as I said, I actually wasn't addressing the umpire yelling, but rather the "celebrations"/intimidation, which I just find extremely obnoxious.

Let me note, that I never really minded a player emoting negatively when down...the players among us know how that feels! But I still think it's cool, classy, and dignified, to save the over-the-top stuff for truly over-the-top moments...which probably happen a few times a year at most!

Moose: I recall Trabert once saying that Lendl was basically quite well behaved. He, and the other commentators agreed, that well Lendl could get cranky and whiny with the officals, he was basically in-line the majority of the time.

On a side note, I didn't mind Lendl's glare, or even Lendl hitting at the opponent! For hitting at the net man really is part of the game! And I don't mind it, assuming it's not an easy overhead...that's going a bit far, or an incredibly easy drop shot sitter....but hey, groundstroke at the net guy? It's not nice, but it's legal and sometimes, the smart shot!

Anyways, as I mentioned in the OP (my statements have been misrepresented a few times), I don't remember THIS many top players, doing the...the HEWITT+ so often.

As you say, while there were a few players into these kinds of antics...there was also a big undercurrent of: it's cool to be cool. I hope we don't lose that completely.

 

[Datacipher]

I wouldn't call celebrating a point with a fist pump bad behavior, but the "come ons" do get old. Some players celebrate winning a point like they just won the match, even when they are behind. I can see trying to pump yourself up a little, but after every point just gets a little tiresome.

Well, I agree. You just broke serve in a 10 deuce game, in the 5th set? Hey, you're entitled to some emotion! Sometimes we now get it, every time somebody holds serve! Heck, sometimes we get it everytime we get back to deuce! ;-)

 

[Enlightened Coelacanth]

Incorrect. Lendl did, in fact, throw tantrums (or at least have some outbursts). Perhaps tantrums is too strong a word. But to suggest that he never misbehaved is farcical.

Of course, Sampras, too, dropped some "F Bombs" on officials on occasion and stared down opponents.

Today's guys are no worse. This thread is yet another out of touch, nostalgia filled patina.

And in the Tennis Challenge series (or whatever it was called) from Sea Pines I remember a doubles match between Ashe/Laver vs. Borg/Nastase in which Borg launched a ball over the stands and screamed like he was stabbed.
Yet people would hardly call Borg a "difficult" person or tantrum thrower.

In years of competing and playing tennis it would be impossible to find a human being who has not had his patience tried and reacted in a testy manner and Lendl must be no exception. But a portrayal as some sort of ill mannered goon who frightened lines people has to be seen as a real stretch.

No one is suggesting today's players are "worse" than those of yesteryear (speaking of out of touch), though it would be hard to find a
player who threatens physical harm of lines people or regularly drops f-bombs in discussions with the chair as Roddick does, in the distant past.

All that is meant is that the acting out and chest beating that we see so prevalent in all of society is especially strong in tennis now, thanks to coaches and sports psychologists who recommend displays of dominance as a way to intimidate opponents. It cheapens tennis and turns such displays into something one could see at a WWF Smackdown.

 

[Chopin]

And in the Tennis Challenge series (or whatever it was called) from Sea Pines I remember a doubles match between Ashe/Laver vs. Borg/Nastase in which Borg launched a ball over the stands and screamed like he was stabbed.
Yet people would hardly call Borg a "difficult" person or tantrum thrower.

In years of competing and playing tennis it would be impossible to find a human being who has not had his patience tried and reacted in a testy manner and Lendl must be no exception. But a portrayal as some sort of ill mannered goon who frightened lines people has to be seen as a real stretch.

No one is suggesting today's players are "worse" than those of yesteryear (speaking of out of touch), though it would be hard to find a
player who threatens physical harm of lines people or regularly drops f-bombs in discussions with the chair as Roddick does, in the distant past.

All that is meant is that the acting out and chest beating that we see so prevalent in all of society is especially strong in tennis now, thanks to coaches and sports psychologists who recommend displays of dominance as a way to intimidate opponents. It cheapens tennis and turns such displays into something one could see at a WWF Smackdown.

Let's be clear though: posters here have already demonstrated that Ivan the Terrible was no Borg or Edberg. He wasn't at a Connors level, but he was a lot worse than Borg.

And yes, people are suggesting that today's player are worst ever in terms of on-court behavior. Hence, the title of the thread, "Is this the most obnoxious generation?"

 

[Enlightened Coelacanth]

Let's be clear though: posters here have already demonstrated that Ivan the Terrible was no Borg or Edberg. He wasn't at a Connors level, but he was a lot worse than Borg.

Though really, who wasn't "worse than Borg"? Borg was the model of composure and even temperament.

And yes, people are suggesting that today's player are worst ever in terms of on-court behavior. Hence, the title of the thread, "Is this the most obnoxious generation?"

I think they are worse in terms of trying to show up/intimidate their opponents. But in terms of tantrums and fighting the chair? Only Andy Roddick (and his churlish behavior) springs to mind.

 

[Chopin]

Though really, who wasn't "worse than Borg"? Borg was the model of composure and even temperament.


I think they are worse in terms of trying to show up/intimidate their opponents. But in terms of tantrums and fighting the chair? Only Andy Roddick (and his churlish behavior) springs to mind.

OK, it would hard to disagree with your first point, but still, Ivan was generally less well-behaved and mannered than many other great champions.

I disagree with you on the second point as intimidating an opponent can take its form in more than just a fist-pump. Fist pumping does not really compare to drilling a ball at them, or crossing the net and sticking your finger in some one's chest, or rallying the crowd against an opponent. And this is to say nothing of the locker room incidents, many of which we probably don't know about.

I agree that there has been a general trend toward excessive celebration and posturing on the tennis court, but at the same time we've moved away from other forms of aggression in the sport.

Best,
Chopin

 

[borg number one]

OK, it would hard to disagree with your first point, but still, Ivan was generally less well-behaved and mannered than many other great champions.

I disagree with you on the second point as intimidating an opponent can take its form in more than just a fist-pump. Fist pumping does not really compare to drilling a ball at them, or crossing the net and sticking your finger in some one's chest, or rallying the crowd against an opponent. And this is to say nothing of the locker room incidents, many of which we probably don't know about.

I agree that there has been a general trend toward excessive celebration and posturing on the tennis court, but at the same time we've moved away from other forms of aggression in the sport.

Best,
Chopin

I tend to agree with that Chopin. There are more excessive "celebrations", such as yelling "come on" all the time and fist-pumping, but the Game has become more "regimented" and "controlled" by Umpires/Tournament officials who don't let any players get away with antics that were "accepted" when Nastase, McEnroe, and Connors played. Perhaps they feared defaulting those huge crowd draws. I think that was a big reason, but I'd agree, much of that behavior should not have been tolerated.

I think McEnroe has alluded to this, that at times he wished Tournament officials had forcibly reigned him in more and perhaps defaulted him because that would have been an early "wake up" call for him so to speak. So, yes, perhaps we can agree that perhaps today's generation is IN GENERAL "more obnoxious", but SOME of the players in the past were downright scary/out of control at times. You do not see someone behave like Nastase, Connors or McEnroe anymore and at times I got the feeling that folks were actually scared to do anything. Top players get preferential treatment, no doubt, if Federer or Nadal EXPLODED and yelled suddenly after a call in the fifth set against a first round opponent, does the AO, or some other Grand Slam want them to be defaulted?? It gets tricky, but you've got to keep things in order.

 

[World Beater]

not all. i will take some competetive fist pumping over nastase, mcenroe, connors arrogance...and just overall a##ho#e behavior any day of the week.

 

[Falloutjr]

I don't mind any of that stuff when it's done after an exciting point, but when people screech like banshees when they hit the ball, then I just turn the channel. That's the worst part of watching pro tennis for me /facepalm.

 

[BTURNER]

Do any of them, ANY of them show admiration for an opponents brilliance on any routine basis. Martina was the last champ/ former who would still commend the fine play of her opponent. did it till the day she retired. I'd forgive a lot of self promoting with a pat on the racket for the other side. sports psychologists would have a cow about such acknowledgments today. Martina thought it a healthy way to remind yourself not to take each point as a personal failure.

 

[Chopin]

Do any of them, ANY of them show admiration for an opponents brilliance on any routine basis. Martina was the last champ/ former who would still commend the fine play of her opponent. did it till the day she retired. I'd forgive a lot of self promoting with a pat on the racket for the other side. sports psychologists would have a cow about such acknowledgments today. Martina thought it a healthy way to remind yourself not to take each point as a personal failure.

This is a good point. I'd like to see more of this. It's something I try to do when I play and I'd like to see it more in the pro ranks.

I remember Roddick doing quite a bit actually, and Hewitt does gave the occasional "too good mate."

 

[Visene77]

To answer the op......without a doubt. Players are starting to get a little mainstream. Loudmouth brats are starting to stand out. Pretty girls with no talent gettin uber (nike) sponsors....worthless overall players with sick mph's on their serve slapped on magazine covers.

One thing thats funny to me though..........how far off in actual ability these "top 10's" are to the #1 player. Its NFL vs. High School.

I feel like class is slowly being drained from the game........its a shame.

At least I can still watch Novak......still some class around around the top.

 

[Visene77]

To answer the op......without a doubt. Players are starting to get a little mainstream. Loudmouth brats are starting to stand out. Pretty girls with no talent gettin uber (nike) sponsors....worthless overall players with sick mph's on their serve slapped on magazine covers. Certain someone who deals with the chair like they owe him something cause of his name. Close ball should be called "in" cause they are lucky enough to be calling lines for rodthedick.

One thing thats funny to me though..........how far off in actual ability these "top 10's" are to the #1 player. Its NFL vs. High School.

I feel like class is slowly being drained from the game........its a shame.

At least I can still watch Novak......still some class around around the top.

 

[Visene77]

double post

 

[Chopin]

I watched the final with a little extra focus on the on the mannerisms of the players and I can say unequivocally that they both acted respectful.

Federer was all business and I did not think there was any excessive fist pumping or posturing. Murray showed some bad body language, but it was not nearly pronounced or distracting enough to be our concern.

I also observed that Roger did, in fact, applaud one of Murray's passing shots.

On an unrelated note: anyone else feel bad for Andy? Such a young guy and talented player with so much expectation on his shoulders! I truly believe he'll win a couple of slams in his career though.

 

[borg number one]

^^^ Agreed Chopin. Both players behaved great, and it was good "no frills" tennis all the way. I liked the fact that Federer was not doing a lot of yelling, etc. when he was clearly taking control of that match.

Yes, Murray seems to be feeling the weight of the expectations. Just getting to a GS final is no mean feat and winning Grand Slams takes super human effort plus talent, with a little luck thrown in for good measure. I think he'll eventually win a slam or two at least. The guy is only 22, and even Federer had not won a slam by the same age.

 

[Changmaster]

^^^ Agreed Chopin. Both players behaved great, and it was good "no frills" tennis all the way. I liked the fact that Federer was not doing a lot of yelling, etc. when he was clearly taking control of that match.

Yes, Murray seems to be feeling the weight of the expectations. Just getting to a GS final is no mean feat and winning Grand Slams takes super human effort plus talent, with a little luck thrown in for good measure. I think he'll eventually win a slam or two at least. The guy is only 22, and even Federer had not won a slam by the same age.

Actually Fed won his 1st Wimby when he was 21. His Birthday is in August, therefore he was a couple months shy of his 22nd birthday when he won Wimby 2003.

 

[borg number one]

^^^Ok, off by a few months, but close. Thanks for the clarification Changmaster. Then Murray is approximately the same age now as Fed was then, since Murray is 22. Yet, Murray still has not actually won one, so who knows when his first one will arrive or if it will arrive. My main point is that yes, he's got plenty of tennis left in front of him from all indications.

 

[Changmaster]

^^^Ok, off by a few months, but close. Thanks for the clarification Changmaster. Then Murray is approximately the same age now as Fed was then, since Murray is 22. Yet, Murray still has not actually won one, so who knows when his first one will arrive or if it will arrive. My main point is that yes, he's got plenty of tennis left in front of him from all indications.

To be precise, Murray is now 22 yrs, 9 months. Fed was 21 yrs, 10 months(give or take a week or two) when he won his 1st major. HAD Murray won the Aussie Open '10, it would be just about a yr difference between the ages at which Fed and Murray had won their respective 1st majors. But since he obviously hasn't won a major yet, who knows how long it will be before Murray finally wins one? (more likely a question of when, not if.) But of course Murray has plenty of good years ahead of him.

Excuse the pickiness about details, but since this is about cold, hard, simple facts (birthdates, ages) I want to be precise.

 

[abmk]

Do any of them, ANY of them show admiration for an opponents brilliance on any routine basis. Martina was the last champ/ former who would still commend the fine play of her opponent. did it till the day she retired. I'd forgive a lot of self promoting with a pat on the racket for the other side. sports psychologists would have a cow about such acknowledgments today. Martina thought it a healthy way to remind yourself not to take each point as a personal failure.

NOVAK DJOKOVIC .

 

[Chopin]

To be precise, Murray is now 22 yrs, 9 months. Fed was 21 yrs, 10 months(give or take a week or two) when he won his 1st major. HAD Murray won the Aussie Open '10, it would be just about a yr difference between the ages at which Fed and Murray had won their respective 1st majors. But since he obviously hasn't won a major yet, who knows how long it will be before Murray finally wins one? (more likely a question of when, not if.) But of course Murray has plenty of good years ahead of him.

Excuse the pickiness about details, but since this is about cold, hard, simple facts (birthdates, ages) I want to be precise.

Thanks for that.

 

[Tina]

Thanks for that.

Were you one of the soldiers during Vietnamese War, Chopin?

 

[Chopin]

Were you one of the soldiers during Vietnamese War, Chopin?

I don't get the joke, kind lady. Please explain.

 

[Tina]

I don't get the joke, kind lady. Please explain.

Do my question really sound like a joke ^_^? After reading many threads, I realize you and your follow friends enjoy discussing/debating any topic of well-known tennis players in the past (different from other threads I read). In one of your posts, you mentioned that you used to be Pro which makes me curious about your age. Were you born before or after Vietnam War? Or I should say you were a solider during the War? Thanks. -Tina

 

[Chopin]

Do my question really sound like a joke ^_^? After reading many threads, I realize you and your follow friends enjoy discussing/debating any topic of well-known tennis players in the past (different from other threads I read). In one of your posts, you mentioned that you used to be Pro which makes me curious about your age. Were you born before or after Vietnam War? Or I should say you were a solider during the War? Thanks. -Tina

I just didn't know what you meant by your post. I am post LBJ--so no war for me. I'm against war on principle anyways, so I'd rather have left the country or been inprisoned than participated in that bloodbath. Let's leave it at that (you could probably could get a ballpark of my age by examining my racquet history, but thats a question best left for another day). I was never a professional player though!

It's curious exactly how I ended up in the former pro player discussions. I'm unsure exactly. Fate? Perhaps. I suppose I like sitting with the Historians around a dwindling fire, discussing sad stories of the death of kings.

No, no. In truth, the posts in this sub-forum are generally a little more nuanced than the free-for-all general pro player discussion. Many of the posters are afflicted with the same biases they accuse the younger kids of having towards today's guys though.

Check out my new Masterpiece thread, if you get a chance.

Best,
Chopin

 

[35ft6]

Not sure what's going on in this thread, but weren't the tennis players of the 70's way worse than guys today? Between Nastase, Tiriac, Mac, and Connors, today's players are a bunch of choir boys.

 

[Frank Silbermann]

What? Arthur Ashe was a great sport. But did I mention Ashe?

Quoting you: "Young AA was worse, too. So were Becker and Muster."

 

[Chopin]

Quoting you: "Young AA was worse, too. So were Becker and Muster."

Pardon me?

I'm not sure the purpose of quoting me, but this thread is making the argument that this is the most obnoxious generation ever, not that Ashe was not a better sport than almost everyone playing today. That's an entirely different argument.

AA, Becker, Muster and others, to say nothing of the generation before them, were more ill-behaved than the men's players of today.

 

[abmk]

the confusion is arising from the fact that frank thinks chopin is referring to ashe as AA, while chopin is actually referring to andre agassi

 

[THUNDERVOLLEY]

A truly unbelievable thread.

I know some of you guys are out of touch with tennis and must hail the older generations in every imaginable way, but to suggest that guys today even a hold a candle to the older generations in terms of poor on court behavior is laughable.

Oh please. The previous generation (or transitional generation) had Hewitt as its "star"--one of the most loud, churlish beasts ever to play the game. From his incessant screaming to his small-man/anger management failures, to his infamous racist rant during a USO match against Blake, he was the textbook definition of disgusting behavior. The only thing supressing any of that (of late) is the fact his skills are eroding, coupled with the usual utter destruction at the hands of Federer. However, where Hewitt's screaming, entitlment nonsense ends, it was picked up again by the likes of Murray and Nadal (the anger crap for the latter).

 

[thalivest]

Oh please. The previous generation (or transitional generation) had Hewitt as its "star"--one of the most loud, churlish beasts ever to play the game. From his incessant screaming to his small-man/anger management failures, to his infamous racist rant during a USO match against Blake, he was the textbook definition of disgusting behavior. The only thing supressing any of that (of late) is the fact his skills are eroding, coupled with the usual utter destruction at the hands of Federer. However, where Hewitt's screaming, entitlment nonsense ends, it was picked up again by the likes of Murray and Nadal (the anger crap for the latter).

Hewitt is also homophobic I believe, and was called out for some homophobic comments about a line judge in one match. So he is bigoted in more than one way, and probably every conceivable way (most who have multiple such prejudices have them all, he probably hates Jewish people, etc...

 

[Chopin]

the confusion is arising from the fact that frank thinks chopin is referring to ashe as AA, while chopin is actually referring to andre agassi

Oh, that's what all that was about!!

OK. Thank you for clearing this up...

I think it's fairly common for people to refer to Agassi as AA (just saying), but yes, I mean Agassi, not Ashe. Gosh, Ashe is one of the greatest sports in the history of the game! I have such respect for him as a man.

Best,
Chopin

 

[Chopin]

Hewitt is also homophobic I believe, and was called out for some homophobic comments about a line judge in one match. So he is bigoted in more than one way, and probably every conceivable way (most who have multiple such prejudices have them all, he probably hates Jewish people, etc...

I think that's stretching things a bit!

 

[Chopin]

Oh please. The previous generation (or transitional generation) had Hewitt as its "star"--one of the most loud, churlish beasts ever to play the game. From his incessant screaming to his small-man/anger management failures, to his infamous racist rant during a USO match against Blake, he was the textbook definition of disgusting behavior. The only thing supressing any of that (of late) is the fact his skills are eroding, coupled with the usual utter destruction at the hands of Federer. However, where Hewitt's screaming, entitlment nonsense ends, it was picked up again by the likes of Murray and Nadal (the anger crap for the latter).

Please, please.

Nadal being a bad sport? The guy is a great sport. What is the "anger crap?" that's "picked up" by Nadal? I don't even know that's supposed to mean. I never see Nadal throw his racquet, act rude to linespeople, or act "angry" at anyone. He fist pumps--so what? He does it less than he used to and he's just a kid. If that's his greatest sin, I'll take a legion of players that behave like Nadal. It's better than Mac who still acts like an idiot on the court to this day.

And Murray acts a little churlish from time to time, but its a far cry from crossing the net and sticking a finger in someone's chest, going ballistic at linesmen, trying to nail people at net with sitters, or trying to instigate pseudo-riots in stadiums.

No generation is perfect, but I've yet to read a single compelling, encompassing and thorough argument that this generation is the worst. Remember the argument being put forth is that this generation, right now, is the worst its ever been in terms of behavior.

Do you actually believe that this is true?

 

[Chopin]

Why do some of you guys even watch tennis anymore?

--The players are apparently jerks and their on court behavior is worst than Mac, Connors and the brat pack.
--The players are one-dimensional without any variety.
--Only Federer has some variety and he benefits from the weak competition. --Laver and company were much fitter.
--All the courts have been slowed down (except clay, which I'm told is faster) Never-mind that clay courts play slower over time.
--The balls are different.
--The string allow players to create too much spin.
--The players are using those darn frying pan grips.
--They're immature kids playing tennis now.

I could go on forever. Better stick to those vintage Mac matches on VHS!

 

[THUNDERVOLLEY]

Please, please.

Nadal being a bad sport? The guy is a great sport. What is the "anger crap?" that's "picked up" by Nadal?

The would-be tough-guy stare downs of opponents are a good start.

And Murray acts a little churlish from time to time, but its a far cry from crossing the net and sticking a finger in someone's chest, going ballistic at linesmen, trying to nail people at net with sitters, or trying to instigate pseudo-riots in stadiums.

Amusing how you try to spin Murray's screaming and/or fist-pumping on nearly every error from an opponent and general d*ck-like behavior as something tolerable (no wonder Brad Gilbert still kisses his ass). He would not be the subject of this kind of discussion in many a quarter if there was no merit to the observation.

Remember the argument being put forth is that this generation, right now, is the worst its ever been in terms of behavior.

My argument is that the spin job applied to the current generation is laughable, when some of its members have their own brand of a$$holish behavior. From Hewitt's anger issues and race rant (in a class by hmself with that one), to Murray, Nadal, Djokovic's incessant pissy behavior (born of wholly false sense of entitlement and a horrid family) andof course Roddick--another who runs foul at the mouth with his own sense of entitlement.

I've always said tennis is no country club (the image it struggled to break free of for decades, and was partially successful thanks to the emergence of players such as Nastase, Connors, et al), and should not be forced to adopt stuffy attitudes to pacify some sheltered members of the live and TV audience, HOWEVER, this does not prevent one from pointing out the obvious bad behavior when it exists, rather than pretend this current generation are "gentlemen's gentlemen," when that is far from the truth (particularly with one such a Hewitt, who "acted out" in one, unforgivable way above any other act).

 

[Enlightened Coelacanth]

I wouldn't want to let Serena Williams off the hook as far as awful behavior in this generation either. Her behavior has often times been reprehensible (for a variety of reasons).

The terrible three (Connors, McEnroe and Nastase) have been used as proof that behavior was worst in the past. But when you disregard those three, I think in the main, players had more of a sense of decorum and dignity of the game in the past.

And as a side bar, do clay courts play more slowly over time? As the owner of one myself, in days of yore, I found just the opposite to be true. More foot traffic and playing time tends to pack down the clay so the newer the court, the more slowly it will play.