J. Henin - One of the Greatests in the Making

rlbjr

Rookie
Someone once wrote that sports don't create character, they reveal it. This incident in Justines match revealed a flaw in her character. She would rather take advantage of any situation to win a match than do the right thing and risk not winning. Regardless of whether Serena finished her motion, had the serve gone in it would not have counted because Justine signaled 'not ready'
by raising her hand and leaving her ready position. It is likely but not certain that that action caused Serena to miss the serve. The umpire did not see Justines action and when Serena explained he looked in a questioning manner to Justine. Justine knew, as everyone watching knew, that the umpire was asking whether she had raised her hand. Justine chose simply to shrug in a 'I don't know what you are talking about' manner rather than just say yes, I did.
The crowd was already loud and obnoxious over to line call disputes in which Serena followed the rules and was proven correct, so she chose not to pursue
the issue.

Justine had the chance to do the right thing and she blew it. Character revealed. Has she learned from that and improved? I don't know, I haven't seen her face a similar choice since then.
 

rlbjr

Rookie
Sorry, to the poster commenting that Serena should have given her time to get ready, Justine was ready. She decided to hold up do to crowd noise.

Another poster was right, this is old news and largely forgotten. However, when one person starts a discussion about how the love Hennin and why, it is relevant to say why one is not a fan.
 

Chadwixx

Banned
Camilio Pascual said:
What would I do? Let's see, I raised my hand, the server continues her motion, dumps it in the net, and then makes it clear she saw my hand up by objecting.
have u ever hit a serve? after the ball is thrown ur head goes up (sometimes the head goes up with the arm). so serena must have seen justins hand before she tossed the ball (a quick serve, poor sportsmanship), or this is made up.
 

Chadwixx

Banned
if serena served like roscoe tanner (hitting the ball on the way up) u may have a point, but she lets it drop like most ppl do. thus the motion in which she would hurt her ribs (or whatever) never began.
 

aj_m2009

Professional
Chadwixx said:
have u ever hit a serve? after the ball is thrown ur head goes up (sometimes the head goes up with the arm). so serena must have seen justins hand before she tossed the ball (a quick serve, poor sportsmanship), or this is made up.
She was hitting the serve when she saw it. Once you hit the ball during the serve you are going to be looking in the direction you hit the ball which wasn't to far from Justine, so therefore she could have seen Justine's hand then and not necessarily before she served.
 

Chadwixx

Banned
ya but thats after the fact, it wouldnt have affected her ball going in or out.

if u drop ur head upon impact the ball usually goes in the net , i believe her serve was long.

i dont understand this "Once you hit the ball during the serve you are going to be looking in the direction you hit the ball". with the pace serena serves, by the time she saw the ball (after the serve), it would have landed already, or within a half sec. hard to make a judgement in that amount of time unless ur looking for an excuse.
 

aj_m2009

Professional
Chadwixx said:
ya but thats after the fact, it wouldnt have affected her ball going in or out.

if u drop ur head upon impact the ball usually goes in the net , i believe her serve was long.

i dont understand this "Once you hit the ball during the serve you are going to be looking in the direction you hit the ball". with the pace serena serves, by the time she saw the ball (after the serve), it would have landed already, or within a half sec. hard to make a judgement in that amount of time unless ur looking for an excuse.
Whatever dude, I don't really care anymore. It's obvious half of you didn't see the match, and then the other half have never hit a serve before.
 

Chadwixx

Banned
no need to get mad, just a friendly debate.

once she takes her eyes off the ball (and looks at the opponent) the ball has left her racket, thus her excuse of missing because of the hand isnt valid. if she did see the hand before she started the motion she was trying an unsportmans like gesture and it backfired.
 

aj_m2009

Professional
Don't worry, I'm not getting mad, I'm just stating what seems to be a fact.

What I don't get is why would she serve if she saw her hand? It would be stupid to do that. I understand Serena doesn't exactly make the smartest choices sometimes but I don't think she is that dumb.
 

rlbjr

Rookie
Chad, do you only see what you are directly looking at? Or, like the rest of us, do you have periferal vision that allows you to notice objects and motion even when you are not looking directly at it? Either way, you are completely missing the point. The point is, if the serve had gone in, it would not have counted because Hennin had signaled 'not ready'. She is allowed to do this under the rules due to outside interference, ie. crowd interference. The returner CANNOT have it both ways, if it's out it's a fault and if it's in it doesn't count. Therefore Serena was entitled under the rules to a first serve whether she saw Justin or not and whether Justins action caused the fault or not. Normally the umpire would have seen the hand up, clearly he did not. Serena just as clearly did and when the umpire looked the question at her her OBLIGATION under the code, rules of fair play and just basic character was to ackowledge the hand up and admit to it. Obviously she chose not to ant continued to obfuscate in the press conference.

It can't be stated any clearer and if you still don't get it you either don't know tennis, didn't see the match at all or are deliberately obtuse.
 
Camilio Pascual said:
Bingo! Henin's a cheat!
Wow! I'm not a Henin fan and I merely call her a greaser. Now that you have brought this up, there was a penalty for illegal coaching assessed against her, wasn't there? along with every other tennis player, no doubt.
Yes Sharapova - on many, many occasions.

AND BTW I only said Justine cheated to SHUT YOU ALL UP BECAUSE YOU ARE GETTING VERY BORING WITH THE SAME RECORD.

GET OVER IT - HAVE NONE OF YOU GOT A LIFE? Why don't you start on Coria - he is the biggest cheat isn't he? This board is so boring - are you all Old Age Pensioners? Except Gugafanatic of course and the ones who support Justine and her wonderful talent.
 

aj_m2009

Professional
Justine Fanatic said:
...This board is so boring...
If this board is so boring why are you still posting here???

PS
What has Coria done(sorry, never seen him pull anything like holding up his hand and then denying it lol, or faking injuries lol)?
 
wildbill88AA said:
millions dont think of justine as a cheat, its just a few morons who don't understand the rules.
EXACTLY!!! Haven't they got a life? 2 years and they are still going on about it and with a lot of energy.

She has millions of fans around the world and doesn't give one iota to what people think of her on this board!

She is back and getting better than she was before, so that's what the real problem is - Justine haters don't like it and will blame her for something that happened 2 years ago. She acted like most players would act except it's not made a big deal out of because it wasn't against Serena Williams. What made it worse was the RG crowd knew what Serena had done and went against her. I'm sure the Williams' PR company had quite a bit to do with the report of it afterwards.
 

Chadwixx

Banned
i dont think u understand the concentration lvl when hitting a serve. u focus at the ball looking up for about 1 sec. its not like a groundstroke where u can see the opponent peripherally. i seriously doubt she saw the hand until after the ball was hit.

maybe on the club lvl u look around when u toss the ball but big hitters dont. i serve about as hard as serena and i can tell u when the toss goes up, im not looking around.

either way its a minor complaint on henin (which occured vs the most disliked person on the tour. debate that if u want, but when 100 girls are busting their asses then hear serena talk about tennis being 2ndary, no one would like her, or respect her). if thats the worst thing she did, henin isnt too bad.
 
Chadwixx said:
i dont think u understand the concentration lvl when hitting a serve. u focus at the ball looking up for about 1 sec. its not like a groundstroke where u can see the opponent peripherally. i seriously doubt she saw the hand until after the ball was hit.

maybe on the club lvl u look around when u toss the ball but big hitters dont. i serve about as hard as serena and i can tell u when the toss goes up, im not looking around.

either way its a minor complaint on henin (which occured vs the most disliked person on the tour. debate that if u want, but when 100 girls are busting their asses then hear serena talk about tennis being 2ndary, no one would like her, or respect her). if thats the worst thing she did, henin isnt too bad.
Thank you!
 
Cheater or not, she still bugs me. Her fervour is so vulgar. Her autistic incanting of "allez" after every point...her husband must have such performance anxiety!
 

Chadwixx

Banned
not to drag this on or anything but throw u a ball like ur going to serve. the left arm and shoulder being raised blocks the left corner of ur eye when facing the backhand corner serving (typical serving stance). if she served like roscoe tanner or a right handed goran where she faces the net and throws the ball low, into the court id agree with u.
 
It really boils down to this... How much responsibility does a professional tennis player have in assisting the umpire with his decisions?
Utter nonsense!! The umpire's head was focused in Serena's direction. How professional would it have been fore Ulrich to say, "Well Serena, I didn't see her hand therefore I won't ask her anything, so let's just forget abut it, k."

True the rules state that it's the umpire's job to officiate. The rules also states that a point cannot begin until the retruner is ready to return serve, within the allotted time. When the umpire gestured in Henin's direction, she was confirming whether or not Justine was ready to receive. She wasn't seeking assistance with her duty, that would be akin to saying, I decide when you're ready or not ready to return.

not to drag this on or anything but throw u a ball like ur going to
serve.
Boy, I can wait for the chinese to swallow you guys whole.
 

Phil

Hall of Fame
Bertchel Banks said:
Boy, I can wait for the chinese to swallow you guys whole.
What does that MEAN? Are you trying, again, to hijack the thread with another anti-American comment, like you did recently with the "you people elected Bush comment"? Listen, a--ss--hole, if you want to bash America, fine, just find a nice Euro-site where that's what they do all day. But don't cut into the middle of a TENNIS discussion with your bigotry. I'm sure the bitterness that comes with your hellhole of a country either a) getting its ass beat by America or b) getting its ass SAVED by America, or c) BOTH, is shinning through here. My only advice to you is: get over it.
 

Northerly

Rookie
I'm with Evert - JHH "bugs" me too. Can't really pinpoint why either. It's a package of little irritations that all add. The Serena thing, the drip, the injuries, the 'allez'...
 

Phil

Hall of Fame
Also, as Dedans once said, she's a beady-eyed little s**nk. That kinda bugs me...but no getting around it, she's also a helluva player. I would pay good money for that backhand.
 
What does that MEAN? Are you trying, again, to hijack the thread with another anti-American comment, like you did recently with the "you people elected Bush comment"? Listen, a--ss--hole, if you want to bash America, fine, just find a nice Euro-site where that's what they do all day. But don't cut into the middle of a TENNIS discussion with your bigotry. I'm sure the bitterness that comes with your hellhole of a country either a) getting its ass beat by America or b) getting its ass SAVED by America, or c) BOTH, is shinning through here. My only advice to you is: get over it.
a)My Vietnamese cousin Ming Li said we won that war.
b)You owed us one from your "Revolution"

Typical Right-Wing Liberalism=Anti-Americanism
 

Phil

Hall of Fame
Bertchel Banks said:
Actually it was D) We get fat being protected by America.

Chadwixx, I believe is from Oz.
Ahh...a welfare state. So buy your own protection, for a change, instead of trying to sell it to...CHINA!
 

Phil

Hall of Fame
Bertchel Banks said:
a)My Vietnamese cousin Ming Li said we won that war.
b)You owed us one from your "Revolution"

Typical Right-Wing Liberalism=Anti-Americanism
I have no idea what you're talking about, but Vietnam? Look who's now practically begging for favorable trade terms from the US. Look who's opened their main port to American naval visits...why, none other than the Democractic People's Republic of Vietnam. So yes, sooner or later, even the so-called victors get owned.
 

Phil

Hall of Fame
In the end, we won...it just took awhile. Isolation was part of the strategy, though I personally didn't agree with that policy. We just picked-up where FRANCE had REALLY lost, I mean, not just policically but militarily (no surprises there), and cleaned it up. Just took 40 years-way too long.
 

lothar

New User
I think some of us have gone off on a tangent here. For those wanting to talk about politics or being "anti-American" and such, go bicker at one another in the "Odds and Ends" or some place where such talk is relevant. If you want to verbally bash one another, do that elsewhere. It truly is a a sign of weakness to have to resort to name-calling and teasing.

I don't think Justine necessarily cheated, so much that she did not come forward to say that she raised her hand. Was she required to correct the umpire? Certainly not. Would it have been more of a righteous thing to do? Perhaps. But ultimately, what did she do? She left it up to the official, whose job it is to make such decisions.

Most of what you have to say is speculation. What was going through her head? What did the umpire ask? What was implied in the conversation they had? No possible way any of you can know. Were any of you in her situation? I think it's rather bold to make such a judgment on other people without analyzing ones' self. Have we all been completely honest all the time?

Some of you people are so adamant about being picky and trying to find faults with every player that's on top. "Serena looks like a dog, Maria is an immature child, Kim is ugly, Lindsay is old, Martina Hingis is a brat, Capriati is a baby and now Justine is a cheater." Just stop and enjoy the game. It's not supposed to be personal. Justine have a great all around game, Serena is a great athlete, Martina is/was very skilled player, and so on.

Justine's integrity was not up to some people's standards but so far many of you have not been up to mine. So what? You are not here to impress me and she is for sure not here to impress you. One incident does not make her a bad person, lest we all are greasy and terrible people. I'm sure she's taken this incident and has grown. Look how she handled the Capriati match. She could have seriously hurt her body to prove to you bitter and hateful people that she is a great athlete. (Referring to how she did not seek medical attention during the match, though it was clearly necessary, as seen after the use of needing an IV).

Just stop! It's because of people like some of the ones here that I can't wait to get out of high school
 

Camilio Pascual

Hall of Fame
wildbill88AA said:
millions dont think of justine as a cheat, its just a few morons who don't understand the rules.
True, she's just a greaser.
I disagree with you about the rules, I have found that most TENNIS players don't understand the rules, let alone TeeVee watchers.
 

Camilio Pascual

Hall of Fame
Chadwixx said:
have u ever hit a serve? after the ball is thrown ur head goes up (sometimes the head goes up with the arm). so serena must have seen justins hand before she tossed the ball (a quick serve, poor sportsmanship), or this is made up.
For this to be a conversation with me, you are going to have to answer my question about your off-court criteria first instead of asking another question.
 

cedric13

New User
Hi

I'm Belgian. Belgian as Clijsters and Henin.

Henin is very disliked here. She has a such attitude.
She's used to talk a lot about her privacy in stupid newspaper, making her
incredible, that it's normal she earned all what she has, that she's the best.

Few months ago she acted for a public comedy show. The little movie
she was in showed her back from winning a tournement and having a drunk
and lazy father at home. A total drunk father. Nothing was hilarous, it
was pathetic. If she has problem with her dad, no need to put him down
in public in a such way.

After that, way way way more Belgian disliked her.

I'm not giving you my opinion about her, just telling you how she's mainly
seen here in Belgium.

We're proud of course to have 2 such players with Clijsters and Henin.
But it came to a situation that in any tennis club I've spent time lately, if
she's on tv, everyone hopes she loose.
 
I don't think Justine necessarily cheated, so much that she did not come forward to say that she raised her hand. Was she required to correct the umpire? Certainly not. Would it have been more of a righteous thing to do? Perhaps. But ultimately, what did she do? She left it up to the official, whose job it is to make such decisions....Most of what you have to say is speculation.
Who do you think you are coming in here like some sort of Queen bee?
If the match was a TV program edited to elicit emotion I could understand defending Henin. It wasn't, however, and her dishonesty is part of the historical record. It's personalities like yours who would deny the holocaust happened (despite the evidence), or be 100% certain Iraq had nuclear weapons (despite the non evidence).

In this case I'd say the umpire was unsighted. Out of courtesy to Serena, a participant in the match, she asked Justine, the other participant, if she raised her hand.

Was she required to correct the umpire? Certainly not.
Yes she was. She's supposed to be a professional. The rules also state that once you're ready, you can't be un-ready. So there, she broke the rule and she lied.
 
We just picked-up where FRANCE had REALLY lost, I mean, not just policically but militarily (no surprises there), and cleaned it up.
We blew our load giving birth to you guys (remember that?). So you'll always owe us.
 

The tennis guy

Hall of Fame
Bertchel Banks said:
Yes she was. She's supposed to be a professional. The rules also state that once you're ready, you can't be un-ready. So there, she broke the rule and she lied.
Tell us where the rule says once you are ready, you can't be un-ready? You can't make up rule that doesn't exist to justify your arguement.
 
Be prepared to use non-verbal communication...This can be done with a nod or a hand signal...A nod with eye contact will answer [unasked questions]. -- USTA Official Umpire Handbook.

A-ha, so there is such a thing as non-verbal communication. I'll find the ready/un-ready rule later...
 
Bertchel Banks said:
We blew our load giving birth to you guys (remember that?). So you'll always owe us.
I found this to be a brilliant quote (albeit, a tad superfluous after the first two words, no?). Not to be a smark-ass, but the way I understood it, I was told that the preponderance of mustaches on men in your country stemmed from a desire to hide the "stretch marks." I mean, what other place refers to their own capital as "swinging" London?

I once asked a man on the street in London: "Excuse me Bryan with a "Y" Tumbleweed, but how do you say the number SIXTY-EIGHT?" and he replied:
"How do you say Sixty-eight in London? Simple: 'DO ME NOW AND I'LL OWE YOU ONE LATER'!" I asked him what comes after the number 68 and he replied "69" but when I asked him what came after 69 he coyly (and "boyly") cooed "mouthwash." (RAZZ!)

I wanted to go see the movie "Honey, I Blew Up the Kids" while I was over there, but all's they played was a locally filmed sequel: "Honey, I Blew Everyone."

Alex Trebeck, I'd like "Swallow-the-Leader" for $500 please."

...superfluous indeed.....;-)
 

Chadwixx

Banned
Bertchel Banks said:
Be prepared to use non-verbal communication...This can be done with a nod or a hand signal...A nod with eye contact will answer [unasked questions]. -- USTA Official Umpire Handbook.

A-ha, so there is such a thing as non-verbal communication. I'll find the ready/un-ready rule later...
look at the wta and atp rules, not the usta. this isnt a club tournament :)
 

fedfan

Rookie
i think what bugs me the most is that she refuses to apologize or at least come out and say she was wrong. its the least she could do.
 

The tennis guy

Hall of Fame
Bertchel Banks said:
A reciever who attempts to receive service shall be considered as being ready. -- ITF's Rules of Tennis

There.
It said nothing about whether you can be un-ready from being considered ready.
 

Rabbit

G.O.A.T.
Bertchel Banks said:
Be prepared to use non-verbal communication...This can be done with a nod or a hand signal...A nod with eye contact will answer [unasked questions]. -- USTA Official Umpire Handbook.

A-ha, so there is such a thing as non-verbal communication. I'll find the ready/un-ready rule later...
Not to be a stickler, well maybe so, you're quoting the USTA Official Umpire Handbook. I take it from the previous diatribe that you understand that the US in USTA is United States? The match in question was not under the jurisdiction of the USTA, rather the French Tennis Federation. I don't know for sure, but I would think that they have a different set of guidelines for French Officials. Further, I would assume the the ITF has a different set of guidelines for the Grand Slam tournaments.

As to a player being ready and then un-ready, it happens all the time. I've seen players ready to return serves and someone behind the server is not seated. The reciever will come out of their ready stance and hold up their hand. With regard to the Williams/Henin match, I think the only reason the Williams got upset was the closeness of the contest. Had she been blowing Henin out, she never would have made an issue. Henin was wrong to not admit that she had her hand up, but Williams may/may not have seen her hold her hand up and continued anyway to provoke a situation.
 

Kaptain Karl

Hall Of Fame
cedric13 said:
I'm Belgian. ... Henin is very disliked here. ... But it came to a situation that in any tennis club I've spent time lately, if
she's on tv, everyone hopes she loose.
I suspected as much. (Welcome to TW, cedric.)

- KK
 

lothar

New User
Bertchel Banks said:
Who do you think you are coming in here like some sort of Queen bee?
If the match was a TV program edited to elicit emotion I could understand defending Henin. It wasn't, however, and her dishonesty is part of the historical record. It's personalities like yours who would deny the holocaust happened (despite the evidence), or be 100% certain Iraq had nuclear weapons (despite the non evidence).

Yes she was. She's supposed to be a professional. The rules also state that once you're ready, you can't be un-ready. So there, she broke the rule and she lied.
Once again, people love going off on a tangent. I'm not sure how my personality has anything to do with tennis or why it is people like myself that there is any speculation about the Holocaust or Iraq. Your ignorace is showing, now stop that.

Somehow I doubt that any objective tennis record will state, "And Justine Henin won the French Open...and she cheated." That's just silly.

She broke no rule, else she would have been disquilified. The fact that her title was not stripped from her gives evidence to suggest that your accusations are mere opinions. She did not lie, she did not tell the truth...she said nothing. She left it for the umpire to decide and the decision was made. If you would like to be angry, I would say direct it at the umpire. IT WAS THE UMPIRE'S CALL, NOT JUSTINES. Justine went along with her decision that was in her favor. However, I'm not the person to hold on to anger and to an incident that occured over a year ago. Let it go.

Mr. Banks, I'm not quite sure why you'd quote me in a positive attitude and then right after, quote me again to "trash talk" me. Though I will not sit here and waste my time fighting with you, I will simply say that it was hypocritical and made no sense. Thank you.
 

Kaptain Karl

Hall Of Fame
lothar - You're posting like an idiot.

She broke no rule, else she would have been disquilified.
If one cheats and gets caught that's one thing. JHH only "got caught" by those who know the letter and spirit of what sportsmanship is. She cheated in the FO and got away with it, hence she wasn't disquilified [sic].

Most people get caught when they cheat. I can only *hope* JHH tries something like that again. I don't think she'll get away with it next time. (Did you see cedric's post? The Belgians don't even like her.)

[Remember the USO last year, when Capriati tried to "play dumb" in the post-Serena match interview? The tennis-savvy NY crowd booed her *right away* for attempting to "finesse" the truth. IOW, she "got caught" by the "court of public opinion."]

- KK
 
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