JohnYandell
Hall of Fame
Uh, how did you know it was in the Forum? Nobody mentioned that.
Lansdorp: Cheating in Jr Tennis
- Thread starter 10isDad
- Start date
Because I went to the website and looked after seeing your comment. The forum section is open to the public and there are often comments/references to articles on the main site so figured I would look there. I actually do visit your forum every month or two as there are some interesting posts, even though videos aren't available to be viewed.
JohnYandell
Hall of Fame
Ok then if you say so.
TenniseaWilliams
Professional
Hehe, irony.
What else do you want, John? I apologized for posting something that turned out to be from your site. I added a note indicating where it's from. You're certainly welcome to contact the TW moderators and have the thread yanked.
I have certainly learned a lesson and will check, in as much as I can, anything I receive that would appear to be a real article to find the source and post a link to it instead. If no link exists that I can find, I'll not post it.
slicekick95
Semi-Pro
getting back on subject . . . . . . . I was competing at a doubles tournament when i saw this happen (btw, the names are fake)
It was 9-9 in a super tiebreak third set. So the winner of the point would get match point. Bobby and Mark were on the same team. Mark was at the net and Bobby was serving. Bobby served it in and came to the net. A member of the other team put up a perfect lob and it bounced about an inch inside the baseline. Mark tried to run it down but could not. Knowing that the call was close, his partner (Bobby) turned around looking at Mark to see what the call was. Mark subtly signaled the ball in so that only Bobby could see. However, Bobby shook his head and mouthed "call it out" to Mark. Mark called it out, the other team asked if he was sure and he said yes. However, justice prevailed and the other team saved match point and won the next two points to get the match.
It was 9-9 in a super tiebreak third set. So the winner of the point would get match point. Bobby and Mark were on the same team. Mark was at the net and Bobby was serving. Bobby served it in and came to the net. A member of the other team put up a perfect lob and it bounced about an inch inside the baseline. Mark tried to run it down but could not. Knowing that the call was close, his partner (Bobby) turned around looking at Mark to see what the call was. Mark subtly signaled the ball in so that only Bobby could see. However, Bobby shook his head and mouthed "call it out" to Mark. Mark called it out, the other team asked if he was sure and he said yes. However, justice prevailed and the other team saved match point and won the next two points to get the match.
Thats not true. Balls leave marks on hard courts, distinct ones if the balls are new.
drop volley
New User
GREAT THREAD: cheating is why I have my athlete daughter in sports OTHER than tennis.
There MUST be more regular and free and immediate access to umpires to call lines. Name ANY other sport where you spend so much money as a parent and the child spends so much time as an athlete and yet the OPPOENENT (yes, the OPPONENT) decides who wins what points, even in tiebreakers..........
Does the cancer of cheating in tennis nationwide hold back growth of the game for players of all ages and all abilities?
FWIW, completely aside from junior or college tennis where the below described conduct would not be allowed in any event, I have found in adult league tennis and also in some of the finest tournament institutions in the US that the following approach can work wonders in dealing with cheaters.
After the third time opponent hooks you, you let the cheater know quite clearly, at the net, in a low voice, up close and personal that you are ready to go to his end of the court and beat the crap out of him if he cheats you ONE MORE TIME the entire match.
On the very rare occasions (3 times in ten years?) I have used this approach, it has worked wonders..........Of course, this approach is not available to any person who a) does not truly intend to enforce the threat or b) has been hooking the opponent........it works only if one has called the lines honestly AND is willing to get started with the cheater mano a mano.
I've found cheaters are cowards, they fear a fight.
Try it. PM your results.
There MUST be more regular and free and immediate access to umpires to call lines. Name ANY other sport where you spend so much money as a parent and the child spends so much time as an athlete and yet the OPPOENENT (yes, the OPPONENT) decides who wins what points, even in tiebreakers..........
Does the cancer of cheating in tennis nationwide hold back growth of the game for players of all ages and all abilities?
FWIW, completely aside from junior or college tennis where the below described conduct would not be allowed in any event, I have found in adult league tennis and also in some of the finest tournament institutions in the US that the following approach can work wonders in dealing with cheaters.
After the third time opponent hooks you, you let the cheater know quite clearly, at the net, in a low voice, up close and personal that you are ready to go to his end of the court and beat the crap out of him if he cheats you ONE MORE TIME the entire match.
On the very rare occasions (3 times in ten years?) I have used this approach, it has worked wonders..........Of course, this approach is not available to any person who a) does not truly intend to enforce the threat or b) has been hooking the opponent........it works only if one has called the lines honestly AND is willing to get started with the cheater mano a mano.
I've found cheaters are cowards, they fear a fight.
Try it. PM your results.
well when I was growing up,this worked too ,but I think the kids now a days are not that violent in character and won't do something like that... they are all non-confrontational these days.. all wear seat belts,never protest anything,just want to hide behind their mommies and daddies and play their video games and act like gangster but have no cajones to back it up..
I can't count how many times I've got into a fight when I was young, I don't know any kids these days ever getting into a fight... if they did they just bring out their assault rifle and shoot everyone down... no honor in that...
Ronaldo
Bionic Poster
Fo shizzle, especially on those dusty, never maintained hardcourts, eh?
So what to do?
I'm struggling with the "cheating" issue and have not decided what is the right message to teach my son.
I completely agree with Tennisprov1's viewpoints..."no excuses"...but at the same time, I don't think that works against a known, obvious cheater, who is taking advantage of the system.
I don't worry about missed line calls here or there. I don't even worry about scoring confusion here or there. As others have pointed out, most of the time it evens out.
But there is one player where every time my son has played him, he "cheats" very smartly and repetitively. He makes bad calls, confuses the scoring, and always to his advantage. While I hate giving my son an excuse (per Tennisprov1's point), but when I watched the same match with my own eyes, and I personally believed that the other player did cheat, it's hard to tell my son in the face "no excuses".
This player engages in a lot of bad calls, which for the most part may be ignorable. What's infuriating is that he always attempts to confuse the scoring, and only in cases when he loses the game. After the confusion and him swearing up and down with detailed recounting of each of the points, most empires will just go with "deuce". He also thrives on it...as he is always the person getting the "second chance", so he fights hard after the long intervention, while the other player (and my son included) gets completely de-motivated. Oh, and making him call out the score doesn't work either...when he wants to argue he will argue.
My son gets so discouraged from playing him, and loses interest in playing & competing when we see him in the draw. So I'm worried about how to deal with this...
I agree with the other poster that says retaliatory cheating is still cheating. So we've always told our son that's not acceptable. But I'm looking at ideas on how to deal with this? What do I do?
I did confront the other player's dad last time also. Make a long story short, he disagrees completely that his son is cheating, so end of conversation...
I'm struggling with the "cheating" issue and have not decided what is the right message to teach my son.
I completely agree with Tennisprov1's viewpoints..."no excuses"...but at the same time, I don't think that works against a known, obvious cheater, who is taking advantage of the system.
I don't worry about missed line calls here or there. I don't even worry about scoring confusion here or there. As others have pointed out, most of the time it evens out.
But there is one player where every time my son has played him, he "cheats" very smartly and repetitively. He makes bad calls, confuses the scoring, and always to his advantage. While I hate giving my son an excuse (per Tennisprov1's point), but when I watched the same match with my own eyes, and I personally believed that the other player did cheat, it's hard to tell my son in the face "no excuses".
This player engages in a lot of bad calls, which for the most part may be ignorable. What's infuriating is that he always attempts to confuse the scoring, and only in cases when he loses the game. After the confusion and him swearing up and down with detailed recounting of each of the points, most empires will just go with "deuce". He also thrives on it...as he is always the person getting the "second chance", so he fights hard after the long intervention, while the other player (and my son included) gets completely de-motivated. Oh, and making him call out the score doesn't work either...when he wants to argue he will argue.
My son gets so discouraged from playing him, and loses interest in playing & competing when we see him in the draw. So I'm worried about how to deal with this...
I agree with the other poster that says retaliatory cheating is still cheating. So we've always told our son that's not acceptable. But I'm looking at ideas on how to deal with this? What do I do?
I did confront the other player's dad last time also. Make a long story short, he disagrees completely that his son is cheating, so end of conversation...
Have him tell the opponent to call out the score every time on said opponent's serve. It is part of the code and he (your son) has every right to expect the opponent to audibly say the score. If the kid still won't, have your son call the score out loud every point, even when the opponent serves.
Ronaldo
Bionic Poster
Sounds just like a senior player at our club, and he doesn't understand why members will not play him.
BradBaughman
Banned
heres a thought never encourage your son to cheat but something Ive learned from my son was this if he knows he's getting hooked he'll wait a couple of points and a few line call arguments, then when the kid serves he'll hit the return the kid will hit it back in the "middle" of the court im talking middle the "T" area and my son will catch the ball and call it out, its a very blatant message. if the kid goes and gets the line judge my son then walks to the back of the court by the fence and says this is where it bounced once again very blatant, i asked what are you doing he replied "stopped the cheating didnt it " most kids just make bad line calls but theirs a few cheaters out their so either get a line judge fast or have a back-up plan!
That's what we've been telling our son to do. But it doesn't always work with this kid, especially after a long point. But this is the most we can do so far.
Another parent recommended us to "catch a good first serve with your hand" if he doesn't call out the score, and have him serve it again. I believe this is both within the code and sends message...but this method takes a away from concentration to play a match, and my son plays worse when he tries to do this.
This is interesting...my son is non-confrontational (like what someone posted about kids now a days) so this could be out of his comfort zone to do...I will ask him to try it.
But it's the scoring confusions that bothers me the most...
btw, line judge doesn't work for us always. My son is somewhat fiery tempered (and non-confrontational, bad combination). So by the time they have enough issues and got a line judge, he's already near the boiling point. So he loses a few points, gets frustrated, and will scream (at himself) loudly, or smack a ball into the fence, and the line judge then gets on my sons case (not unfairly). This is something that we need to work on obviously....
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woodrow1029
Guest
Please do not ask your son to call a ball out that lands in the middle of the court.
Roving umpires can't be on every court all the time. There are bad calls made, and the players can get a line judge. If an umpire sees a ball called out that lands around the service line during a rally, the umpire will give a code violation to the player that made the call. Then they essentially lose the point that they called out, then the next point with the code, and then get suspension points.
I did not read the whole thread. But I see it like this. I've played in europe and have coached younger kids in Europe (12s and 14s). The cheating is not widespread in Europe. Sometimes you have a occasional problem. But nothing like the stuff Lansdorp has mentioned.
The only logical explanation of the reason its happening this bad in America that I can come up with is this.
Its America, cheating gets you ahead in this country. This month we have Bernie Madoff screwing people out of 50 billion dollars and they still let him sit in his 7Miliion luxury condo in Manhattan. Throw him in Jail for gods sake, let him rot in in a cage like the Oil CEOs that did not get out fast enough. You have crooked CEOs that have bankrupted their banks with casino style bets on mortgages and derivatives taking our tax dollars and giving themselves a raise. What do we do about it? congress does absolutely nothing, the government does not even know where the first 350billion dollars is right now.
That is just 2 examples of this decaying society we have in this country that is trickling down to girls 12 and under tennis. The USTA is beyond useless. In France the normal Entry fees are 15 euros, we are paying 50 for designated tournaments and we have to deal with these kind of line judges? I have seen the line judges in action, if the clubs and the tournament organizers were not fat greedy pigs trying to make money off of holding a tennis tournament they would be able to control and stop this nonsense.
The next thing is the high cost of travel, in France the national caliber kids don't pay to play their tournaments, their home club sponsors them. And no its not from the Federation, its money from the private club that is used to sponsor kids in exchange for the kinds competing for the club in Interclub leagues.
The tennis system is broken here, if the USTA would like to do anything to actually help the problem, they should hire a French, or Italian person that has worked on the tournament system and ranking system...both of them are built on the same concept. And in my opinion France has the best tournament system in the world. IF we did something like this, in 10 years I think we would have a a huge new crop of players.
Please discuss the topics I have opened here even if you don't agree!
The only logical explanation of the reason its happening this bad in America that I can come up with is this.
Its America, cheating gets you ahead in this country. This month we have Bernie Madoff screwing people out of 50 billion dollars and they still let him sit in his 7Miliion luxury condo in Manhattan. Throw him in Jail for gods sake, let him rot in in a cage like the Oil CEOs that did not get out fast enough. You have crooked CEOs that have bankrupted their banks with casino style bets on mortgages and derivatives taking our tax dollars and giving themselves a raise. What do we do about it? congress does absolutely nothing, the government does not even know where the first 350billion dollars is right now.
That is just 2 examples of this decaying society we have in this country that is trickling down to girls 12 and under tennis. The USTA is beyond useless. In France the normal Entry fees are 15 euros, we are paying 50 for designated tournaments and we have to deal with these kind of line judges? I have seen the line judges in action, if the clubs and the tournament organizers were not fat greedy pigs trying to make money off of holding a tennis tournament they would be able to control and stop this nonsense.
The next thing is the high cost of travel, in France the national caliber kids don't pay to play their tournaments, their home club sponsors them. And no its not from the Federation, its money from the private club that is used to sponsor kids in exchange for the kinds competing for the club in Interclub leagues.
The tennis system is broken here, if the USTA would like to do anything to actually help the problem, they should hire a French, or Italian person that has worked on the tournament system and ranking system...both of them are built on the same concept. And in my opinion France has the best tournament system in the world. IF we did something like this, in 10 years I think we would have a a huge new crop of players.
Please discuss the topics I have opened here even if you don't agree!
Tennisprov1
New User
Interesting stuff. Is the system in France basically the Tennis Europe system? My son read a biography of Federer in which he said they mentioned a very similar concept in Switzerland. I've mentioned before that I once had a long conversation with a former Swiss Tennis Federation coach named Luc Krippendorf who talked to me about all the inter-academy play that goes on in Europe.
His feeling seemed to be that US coaches in competing academies are too set in their ways, too possessive of their players, etc. to implement that kind of system. Too bad if true.
I guess I would urge people who feel strongly about it to write the powers-that-be at the USTA.
I agree about the system though I am not an expert on the US system, but NOT on your generalizations to the American culture or morality. Cheaters are everywhere and sometimes get ahead in any culture. I think morality is deteriorating everywhere so I don't finger point towards America. I think that stereotype is easy and unwarranted. Actually, the culture, which is "emerging" into the world, which I think has a lot of moral deficits including rampant cheating is China. I always wonder if this has something to do with the lack of a religious cornerstone there and/or the difficulty in getting ahead among several trillion people! In any case, in many Chinese students (certainly not all, but I was surprised how common it was), elaborate cheating is casually common.
In any case, crazy "sports" parents are often to blame, I believe. North America is full of them and so are the European countries. France, coincidently has the only murderous tennis dad I've heard of.
TennisNinja
Hall of Fame
Wow that really stinks...
lilycolefan
Rookie
I agree. The only people that can really train and play well in the US are people whose parents have the money to pay for lessons, tournaments, and travel. There are TONS of talented kids out there who just don't have access to any kind of decent coaching and/or don't have the money to pursue tennis seriously. The French system makes it very inexpensive for players to take up tennis and there are many good coaches distributed across the country plus cheap competition. It's the reason why they have so many good players. 14 in the top 100 for mens while the U.S. has 6. Great Britain is even worse. From what I've heard it's impossible to practice unless you have an immense amount of money. I'm pretty sure The U.S. has more athletic talent than France.
2ndserve642
Semi-Pro
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J
Julieta
Guest
That is just insane. I thought it was three overrules and they are out?
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woodrow1029
Guest
That is not and has not ever been the rule.
That's college ball. Referee's discretion in juniors. In the past I've seen players DQ'd for excessive bad calls, but it goes through the chain: after a couple bad calls, the ref gives a warning, then a point penalty, then a game penalty and finally the DQ. Given the previous scenario, it'd take at least 5 or 6 intentional bad calls and if the player is severely on the run the ref might give the player the benefit of the doubt that it wasn't intentional.
drop volley
New User
OK so what exactly DO USTA Rules provide re cheating?
BTW, does anybody other than me think the official rules governing tennis at all levels within the US would benefit from a comprehensive effort to simplify and thus clarify them?
BTW, does anybody other than me think the official rules governing tennis at all levels within the US would benefit from a comprehensive effort to simplify and thus clarify them?
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woodrow1029
Guest
Cheating would be under the unsportsmanlike conduct category. The rules have been simplified and explained thoroughly with cases and decisions for many different situations in the USTA Friend at Court which can be downloaded from www.usta.com. The point penalty system would be applied for cheating situations. As described above, USTA doesn't have a specific number of overrules that warrant a code violation. College does. The third overrule is a point penalty, fourth is a game penalty and 5th would be a default. Unless of course they have already received a code or codes, then it would be whatever is next in the sequence.
Katlion
Semi-Pro
Yes, the cheating needs to stop! I just went to the Winter Nationals, in Arizona, in the 12's, and got cheated out of at least two matches. The same thing just happened to me in the Copper Bowl!!! And the sad thing is that these kids' parents don't even care. All they care about is that the kid wins the match!!
My brother doesn't go on the boards, only I do. But I'd appreciate it if I found out who the player was who played my brother so maybe we can hopefully clear some stuff up ?
2ndserve642
Semi-Pro
fine yeah his name is Nick Simon
Yeah, thats actually what I thought. My brother will admit he got overuled but not 6 times. He said it was 2 calls and they were close, but he swears he saw space between the ball and the line. My family and I had a discussion w/ him on this and he has made sure he won't do it again. Sorry for any inconvniences that may have occured! Hopefully, there will be no bad blood between Nick and Doug.
Would you mind sharing with us in details, how exactly you got cheated out of 3 matches, as you claim? Were you travelling by yourself? Was there a coach, a parent, an adult, a ref, a tournament director, anybody that could have helped you from being cheated three times in three days?
Somebody has to get involved. You had to inquire how to handle a situation like that after the first time you were cheated, so you could take some preventive measures for your next matches.
i am a parent that was at winter national 12s with my son, and i can tell you that katilon probably couldn't do anything about the cheating (nor could a parent or coach)...the first and second day at the main site (Randolf) there were 4 officials for 29 courts!!!! my son left his court during one match to get an official, and made the mistake of continuing play when nobody came... an hour and a half later, he lost the match on a horrible call...when i met with the head referee and tournament director afterward, they had a very pleasant smile, and apologized that it happened---that is all they do-smile and say sorry, we are low on officials...that is just one story, and there are many more that i know of...
One way to deal with this is to purchase a tape or DVD of the match (they are available from those nice people who are working the winter nats) and show it to the Tournament Director and the officials, just to teach a lesson to the all the cheaters. Make a stand!!!
Last year one of the parents did that and was able to prove the point, the kid that made bad calls, was disciplined and not allowed to play for 3 months.
tennisguyak
Semi-Pro
Why do you say that? A fresh ball will leave fuzz on a hard court.
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woodrow1029
Guest
While it doesn't make them a cheater to point out a ball mark on hard court, the marks on hard courts are not 100% accurate representations of exactly the entire ball hitting the court.
slicekick95
Semi-Pro
sorry to quote myself, but has anyone seen any other instances like this
JohnYandell
Hall of Fame
Worse! High school match, #1 doubles with the team match on the line. Tiebreaker, match point. Player on the team down match point hits a perfect lob that lands clearly inside the line. Neither opponent calls it out. 5 seconds later several opposing teammates, sitting on the sidelines with their coach, audibly tell their teammates on the court "Call it out." They do.
I heard a rumor during Winter Nationals from a former D1 coach (who heard it from somebody else - so who knows if it was true).
The rumor was that the father of a player who shall not be named but is a highly respected junior that most everybody has heard of tried to smuggle in a banana to his child during a match at Winter Nats this year. No real harm in giving your player/son/daughter a banana - except this banana had notes written on the peel giving instructions to the child on how to proceed in his current match.
I was also told by a friend of my son's about how the friend was randomly paired for dubs with a different junior during Winter Nationals. After losing the first set 6-3, the partner told my son's friend to call anything remotely close out. The friend said it was embarassing because the kid started calling balls out, even tried overruling my son's friend.
My son's friend said the player wouldn't shake his hand after the match because he wouldn't participate in the cheating festivities. The friend said he was glad they actually got blown out 6-1 in the 2nd set. (Note: this same player - the cheater, not the friend - was overruled twice in the Copper Bowl qualifier, his coach received a warning for coaching (yelling instructions from 3 courts away ("Topspin rollers crosscourt!!", etc.)))
The rumor was that the father of a player who shall not be named but is a highly respected junior that most everybody has heard of tried to smuggle in a banana to his child during a match at Winter Nats this year. No real harm in giving your player/son/daughter a banana - except this banana had notes written on the peel giving instructions to the child on how to proceed in his current match.
I was also told by a friend of my son's about how the friend was randomly paired for dubs with a different junior during Winter Nationals. After losing the first set 6-3, the partner told my son's friend to call anything remotely close out. The friend said it was embarassing because the kid started calling balls out, even tried overruling my son's friend.
My son's friend said the player wouldn't shake his hand after the match because he wouldn't participate in the cheating festivities. The friend said he was glad they actually got blown out 6-1 in the 2nd set. (Note: this same player - the cheater, not the friend - was overruled twice in the Copper Bowl qualifier, his coach received a warning for coaching (yelling instructions from 3 courts away ("Topspin rollers crosscourt!!", etc.)))
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So I commented earlier in the thread on the fact that my son is having problems dealing with a known cheater in our section. My son is not good enough to play in the Nationals, though he aspires to be later on...so I'm glad he's not reading this thread.
Since then, I've read:
1) Cheating is rampant in the just concluded Winter Nats. In all age groups.
2) Many well known "best in the nation" juniors are known cheaters, and behaves badly.
3) Someone else said cheating is a way of life in collegiate tennis.
This is really depressing state of affairs for junior tennis, no? It isn't that hard for the USTA to keep track of the problem players (keep stats of overrules per player? can't be that hard) and enforce sanctions that means something.
Anyone who cares about this should stand up firm against the cheating player (if you are a player), their parents (if you are a parent), and make a stand. No, you don't have to make a scene, but a firm statement that you believe they are doing something inappropriate and get a explanation from them on what they are thinking. If enough people challenge them they might just get the message...If they do not change their ways, then you need to complain to your section and make your voice heard.
Sure, you can say cheating will always exist, no matter what. But to do nothing about it will simply further embolden the cheaters.
MIGHTY MANFRED THE WONDER
Semi-Pro
Frankly, if I thought it would fly, I would make a THREAD naming names on this site- But I am afraid what this would turn into.
As it is, I would just send the cheater (in threads above) Section heads letters outlining behavior; And tell them to let the player know word gets round, and the player has soiled and worn out their welcome.
I'm glad in our section the older boys take pride in being watched by the younger age groups both on and off the courts- In training and in competitions.
What can you really expect in an individual sport where money is everything?
I think a lot of these families should have stuck with the sport of polo over making their kids the ponies.
The USTA can never square this circle, no matter how many crappy little outreach programs they try to relieve their guilt with.
As it is, I would just send the cheater (in threads above) Section heads letters outlining behavior; And tell them to let the player know word gets round, and the player has soiled and worn out their welcome.
I'm glad in our section the older boys take pride in being watched by the younger age groups both on and off the courts- In training and in competitions.
What can you really expect in an individual sport where money is everything?
I think a lot of these families should have stuck with the sport of polo over making their kids the ponies.
The USTA can never square this circle, no matter how many crappy little outreach programs they try to relieve their guilt with.
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MIGHTY MANFRED THE WONDER
Semi-Pro
I'm sure we are all resting easier, with you on the case.
Keep up whatever you are talking about, monitoring and all, I mean.
Keep up whatever you are talking about, monitoring and all, I mean.
