JohnYandell
Hall of Fame
Uh, how did you know it was in the Forum? Nobody mentioned that.
Uh, how did you know it was in the Forum? Nobody mentioned that.
Ok then if you say so.
c) Anyone who points out a ball mark on a hard court is cheater or a cheater in situ.
The comment below was written by Robert Lansdorp (note: originally from the forums at tennisplayer.net)
"Think about it, there is no other sport where kids compete against each other with absolutely no direct supervision. It doesn’t happen in soccer. It doesn’t happen in basketball. What if in basketball, the kids were allowed to make all their own calls? Then if there was a dispute, they call out the referee who has been sitting around in the lounge and didn’t even see what happened first hand—and he comes out on the court and tries to figure it out? It’s ridiculous to even contemplate. But that’s what we have now in tennis.
The parents get very disillusioned. They spend thousands of dollars and then watch their kids getting cheated out of matches. I know for a fact it’s causing kids to quit the game.
The responsibility to fix this lies with the tournament directors. If they want to run these huge tournaments, than they have to have control over what happens and the ability to make sure all the athletes follow the rules. A couple of roving umpires isn’t going to get the job done. What we need in junior tennis is a stationary umpire for every two courts.
It costs $100 to enter some of these big tournaments. For that amount the least the kids should expect is a chance to let their tennis do the talking, without all these ridiculous other factors that have no place whatsoever in our sport. It has to stop and not next year, it has to stop now.
There MUST be more regular and free and i
After the third time opponent hooks you, you let the cheater know quite clearly, at the net, in a low voice, up close and personal that you are ready to go to his end of the court and beat the crap out of him if he cheats you ONE MORE TIME the entire match.
On the very rare occasions (3 times in ten years?) I have used this approach, it has worked wonders..........Of course, this approach is not available to any person who a) does not truly intend to enforce the threat or b) has been hooking the opponent........it works only if one has called the lines honestly AND is willing to get started with the cheater mano a mano.
I've found cheaters are cowards, they fear a fight.
Try it. PM your results.
Thats not true. Balls leave marks on hard courts, distinct ones if the balls are new.
I'm struggling with the "cheating" issue and have not decided what is the right message to teach my son...What's infuriating is that he always attempts to confuse the scoring, and only in cases when he loses the game...
I'm struggling with the "cheating" issue and have not decided what is the right message to teach my son.
I completely agree with Tennisprov1's viewpoints..."no excuses"...but at the same time, I don't think that works against a known, obvious cheater, who is taking advantage of the system.
I don't worry about missed line calls here or there. I don't even worry about scoring confusion here or there. As others have pointed out, most of the time it evens out.
But there is one player where every time my son has played him, he "cheats" very smartly and repetitively. He makes bad calls, confuses the scoring, and always to his advantage. While I hate giving my son an excuse (per Tennisprov1's point), but when I watched the same match with my own eyes, and I personally believed that the other player did cheat, it's hard to tell my son in the face "no excuses".
This player engages in a lot of bad calls, which for the most part may be ignorable. What's infuriating is that he always attempts to confuse the scoring, and only in cases when he loses the game. After the confusion and him swearing up and down with detailed recounting of each of the points, most empires will just go with "deuce". He also thrives on it...as he is always the person getting the "second chance", so he fights hard after the long intervention, while the other player (and my son included) gets completely de-motivated. Oh, and making him call out the score doesn't work either...when he wants to argue he will argue.
My son gets so discouraged from playing him, and loses interest in playing & competing when we see him in the draw. So I'm worried about how to deal with this...
I agree with the other poster that says retaliatory cheating is still cheating. So we've always told our son that's not acceptable. But I'm looking at ideas on how to deal with this? What do I do?
I did confront the other player's dad last time also. Make a long story short, he disagrees completely that his son is cheating, so end of conversation...
I'm struggling with the "cheating" issue and have not decided what is the right message to teach my son.
I completely agree with Tennisprov1's viewpoints..."no excuses"...but at the same time, I don't think that works against a known, obvious cheater, who is taking advantage of the system.
I don't worry about missed line calls here or there. I don't even worry about scoring confusion here or there. As others have pointed out, most of the time it evens out.
But there is one player where every time my son has played him, he "cheats" very smartly and repetitively. He makes bad calls, confuses the scoring, and always to his advantage. While I hate giving my son an excuse (per Tennisprov1's point), but when I watched the same match with my own eyes, and I personally believed that the other player did cheat, it's hard to tell my son in the face "no excuses".
This player engages in a lot of bad calls, which for the most part may be ignorable. What's infuriating is that he always attempts to confuse the scoring, and only in cases when he loses the game. After the confusion and him swearing up and down with detailed recounting of each of the points, most empires will just go with "deuce". He also thrives on it...as he is always the person getting the "second chance", so he fights hard after the long intervention, while the other player (and my son included) gets completely de-motivated. Oh, and making him call out the score doesn't work either...when he wants to argue he will argue.
My son gets so discouraged from playing him, and loses interest in playing & competing when we see him in the draw. So I'm worried about how to deal with this...
I agree with the other poster that says retaliatory cheating is still cheating. So we've always told our son that's not acceptable. But I'm looking at ideas on how to deal with this? What do I do?
I did confront the other player's dad last time also. Make a long story short, he disagrees completely that his son is cheating, so end of conversation...
Have him tell the opponent to call out the score every time on said opponent's serve. It is part of the code and he (your son) has every right to expect the opponent to audibly say the score. If the kid still won't, have your son call the score out loud every point, even when the opponent serves.
heres a thought never encourage your son to cheat but something Ive learned from my son was this if he knows he's getting hooked he'll wait a couple of points and a few line call arguments, then when the kid serves he'll hit the return the kid will hit it back in the "middle" of the court im talking middle the "T" area and my son will catch the ball and call it out, its a very blatant message. if the kid goes and gets the line judge my son then walks to the back of the court by the fence and says this is where it bounced once again very blatant, i asked what are you doing he replied "stopped the cheating didnt it " most kids just make bad line calls but theirs a few cheaters out their so either get a line judge fast or have a back-up plan!
Please do not ask your son to call a ball out that lands in the middle of the court.This is interesting...my son is non-confrontational (like what someone posted about kids now a days) so this could be out of his comfort zone to do...I will ask him to try it.
But it's the scoring confusions that bothers me the most...
btw, line judge doesn't work for us always. My son is somewhat fiery tempered (and non-confrontational, bad combination). So by the time they have enough issues and got a line judge, he's already near the boiling point. So he loses a few points, gets frustrated, and will scream (at himself) loudly, or smack a ball into the fence, and the line judge then gets on my sons case (not unfairly). This is something that we need to work on obviously....
I did not read the whole thread. But I see it like this. I've played in europe and have coached younger kids in Europe (12s and 14s). The cheating is not widespread in Europe. Sometimes you have a occasional problem. But nothing like the stuff Lansdorp has mentioned.
The only logical explanation of the reason its happening this bad in America that I can come up with is this.
Its America, cheating gets you ahead in this country. This month we have Bernie Madoff screwing people out of 50 billion dollars and they still let him sit in his 7Miliion luxury condo in Manhattan. Throw him in Jail for gods sake, let him rot in in a cage like the Oil CEOs that did not get out fast enough. You have crooked CEOs that have bankrupted their banks with casino style bets on mortgages and derivatives taking our tax dollars and giving themselves a raise. What do we do about it? congress does absolutely nothing, the government does not even know where the first 350billion dollars is right now.
That is just 2 examples of this decaying society we have in this country that is trickling down to girls 12 and under tennis. The USTA is beyond useless. In France the normal Entry fees are 15 euros, we are paying 50 for designated tournaments and we have to deal with these kind of line judges? I have seen the line judges in action, if the clubs and the tournament organizers were not fat greedy pigs trying to make money off of holding a tennis tournament they would be able to control and stop this nonsense.
The next thing is the high cost of travel, in France the national caliber kids don't pay to play their tournaments, their home club sponsors them. And no its not from the Federation, its money from the private club that is used to sponsor kids in exchange for the kinds competing for the club in Interclub leagues.
The tennis system is broken here, if the USTA would like to do anything to actually help the problem, they should hire a French, or Italian person that has worked on the tournament system and ranking system...both of them are built on the same concept. And in my opinion France has the best tournament system in the world. IF we did something like this, in 10 years I think we would have a a huge new crop of players.
Please discuss the topics I have opened here even if you don't agree!
I did not read the whole thread. But I see it like this. I've played in europe and have coached younger kids in Europe (12s and 14s). The cheating is not widespread in Europe. Sometimes you have a occasional problem. But nothing like the stuff Lansdorp has mentioned.
The only logical explanation of the reason its happening this bad in America that I can come up with is this.
Its America, cheating gets you ahead in this country. This month we have Bernie Madoff screwing people out of 50 billion dollars and they still let him sit in his 7Miliion luxury condo in Manhattan. Throw him in Jail for gods sake, let him rot in in a cage like the Oil CEOs that did not get out fast enough. You have crooked CEOs that have bankrupted their banks with casino style bets on mortgages and derivatives taking our tax dollars and giving themselves a raise. What do we do about it? congress does absolutely nothing, the government does not even know where the first 350billion dollars is right now.
That is just 2 examples of this decaying society we have in this country that is trickling down to girls 12 and under tennis. The USTA is beyond useless. In France the normal Entry fees are 15 euros, we are paying 50 for designated tournaments and we have to deal with these kind of line judges? I have seen the line judges in action, if the clubs and the tournament organizers were not fat greedy pigs trying to make money off of holding a tennis tournament they would be able to control and stop this nonsense.
The next thing is the high cost of travel, in France the national caliber kids don't pay to play their tournaments, their home club sponsors them. And no its not from the Federation, its money from the private club that is used to sponsor kids in exchange for the kinds competing for the club in Interclub leagues.
The tennis system is broken here, if the USTA would like to do anything to actually help the problem, they should hire a French, or Italian person that has worked on the tournament system and ranking system...both of them are built on the same concept. And in my opinion France has the best tournament system in the world. IF we did something like this, in 10 years I think we would have a a huge new crop of players.
Please discuss the topics I have opened here even if you don't agree!
...The USTA is beyond useless. In France the normal Entry fees are 15 euros, we are paying 50 for designated tournaments and we have to deal with these kind of line judges? I have seen the line judges in action, if the clubs and the tournament organizers were not fat greedy pigs trying to make money off of holding a tennis tournament they would be able to control and stop this nonsense.
The next thing is the high cost of travel, in France the national caliber kids don't pay to play their tournaments, their home club sponsors them. And no its not from the Federation, its money from the private club that is used to sponsor kids in exchange for the kinds competing for the club in Interclub leagues.
The tennis system is broken here, if the USTA would like to do anything to actually help the problem, they should hire a French, or Italian person that has worked on the tournament system and ranking system...both of them are built on the same concept. And in my opinion France has the best tournament system in the world. IF we did something like this, in 10 years I think we would have a a huge new crop of players.
Please discuss the topics I have opened here even if you don't agree!
I did not read the whole thread. But I see it like this. I've played in europe and have coached younger kids in Europe (12s and 14s). The cheating is not widespread in Europe. Sometimes you have a occasional problem. But nothing like the stuff Lansdorp has mentioned.
The only logical explanation of the reason its happening this bad in America that I can come up with is this.
Its America, cheating gets you ahead in this country. This month we have Bernie Madoff screwing people out of 50 billion dollars and they still let him sit in his 7Miliion luxury condo in Manhattan. Throw him in Jail for gods sake, let him rot in in a cage like the Oil CEOs that did not get out fast enough. You have crooked CEOs that have bankrupted their banks with casino style bets on mortgages and derivatives taking our tax dollars and giving themselves a raise. What do we do about it? congress does absolutely nothing, the government does not even know where the first 350billion dollars is right now.
That is just 2 examples of this decaying society we have in this country that is trickling down to girls 12 and under tennis. The USTA is beyond useless. In France the normal Entry fees are 15 euros, we are paying 50 for designated tournaments and we have to deal with these kind of line judges? I have seen the line judges in action, if the clubs and the tournament organizers were not fat greedy pigs trying to make money off of holding a tennis tournament they would be able to control and stop this nonsense.
The next thing is the high cost of travel, in France the national caliber kids don't pay to play their tournaments, their home club sponsors them. And no its not from the Federation, its money from the private club that is used to sponsor kids in exchange for the kinds competing for the club in Interclub leagues.
The tennis system is broken here, if the USTA would like to do anything to actually help the problem, they should hire a French, or Italian person that has worked on the tournament system and ranking system...both of them are built on the same concept. And in my opinion France has the best tournament system in the world. IF we did something like this, in 10 years I think we would have a a huge new crop of players.
Please discuss the topics I have opened here even if you don't agree!
I did not read the whole thread. But I see it like this. I've played in europe and have coached younger kids in Europe (12s and 14s). The cheating is not widespread in Europe. Sometimes you have a occasional problem. But nothing like the stuff Lansdorp has mentioned.
The only logical explanation of the reason its happening this bad in America that I can come up with is this.
Its America, cheating gets you ahead in this country. This month we have Bernie Madoff screwing people out of 50 billion dollars and they still let him sit in his 7Miliion luxury condo in Manhattan. Throw him in Jail for gods sake, let him rot in in a cage like the Oil CEOs that did not get out fast enough. You have crooked CEOs that have bankrupted their banks with casino style bets on mortgages and derivatives taking our tax dollars and giving themselves a raise. What do we do about it? congress does absolutely nothing, the government does not even know where the first 350billion dollars is right now.
That is just 2 examples of this decaying society we have in this country that is trickling down to girls 12 and under tennis. The USTA is beyond useless. In France the normal Entry fees are 15 euros, we are paying 50 for designated tournaments and we have to deal with these kind of line judges? I have seen the line judges in action, if the clubs and the tournament organizers were not fat greedy pigs trying to make money off of holding a tennis tournament they would be able to control and stop this nonsense.
The next thing is the high cost of travel, in France the national caliber kids don't pay to play their tournaments, their home club sponsors them. And no its not from the Federation, its money from the private club that is used to sponsor kids in exchange for the kinds competing for the club in Interclub leagues.
The tennis system is broken here, if the USTA would like to do anything to actually help the problem, they should hire a French, or Italian person that has worked on the tournament system and ranking system...both of them are built on the same concept. And in my opinion France has the best tournament system in the world. IF we did something like this, in 10 years I think we would have a a huge new crop of players.
Please discuss the topics I have opened here even if you don't agree!
I agree. The only people that can really train and play well in the US are people whose parents have the money to pay for lessons, tournaments, and travel. There are TONS of talented kids out there who just don't have access to any kind of decent coaching and/or don't have the money to pursue tennis seriously. The French system makes it very inexpensive for players to take up tennis and there are many good coaches distributed across the country plus cheap competition. It's the reason why they have so many good players. 14 in the top 100 for mens while the U.S. has 6. Great Britain is even worse. From what I've heard it's impossible to practice unless you have an immense amount of money. I'm pretty sure The U.S. has more athletic talent than France.I did not read the whole thread. But I see it like this. I've played in europe and have coached younger kids in Europe (12s and 14s). The cheating is not widespread in Europe. Sometimes you have a occasional problem. But nothing like the stuff Lansdorp has mentioned.
The only logical explanation of the reason its happening this bad in America that I can come up with is this.
Its America, cheating gets you ahead in this country. This month we have Bernie Madoff screwing people out of 50 billion dollars and they still let him sit in his 7Miliion luxury condo in Manhattan. Throw him in Jail for gods sake, let him rot in in a cage like the Oil CEOs that did not get out fast enough. You have crooked CEOs that have bankrupted their banks with casino style bets on mortgages and derivatives taking our tax dollars and giving themselves a raise. What do we do about it? congress does absolutely nothing, the government does not even know where the first 350billion dollars is right now.
That is just 2 examples of this decaying society we have in this country that is trickling down to girls 12 and under tennis. The USTA is beyond useless. In France the normal Entry fees are 15 euros, we are paying 50 for designated tournaments and we have to deal with these kind of line judges? I have seen the line judges in action, if the clubs and the tournament organizers were not fat greedy pigs trying to make money off of holding a tennis tournament they would be able to control and stop this nonsense.
The next thing is the high cost of travel, in France the national caliber kids don't pay to play their tournaments, their home club sponsors them. And no its not from the Federation, its money from the private club that is used to sponsor kids in exchange for the kinds competing for the club in Interclub leagues.
The tennis system is broken here, if the USTA would like to do anything to actually help the problem, they should hire a French, or Italian person that has worked on the tournament system and ranking system...both of them are built on the same concept. And in my opinion France has the best tournament system in the world. IF we did something like this, in 10 years I think we would have a a huge new crop of players.
Please discuss the topics I have opened here even if you don't agree!
today my friend played this kid ill leave out his name but watev the guy took 3 bathroom breaks was overuled 6 times and screamed every time my friend missed a ball and tok 3 minutes on changeovers i mean to be overuled 6 times is ridiculous
That is not and has not ever been the rule.That is just insane. I thought it was three overrules and they are out?
That is just insane. I thought it was three overrules and they are out?
That is not and has not ever been the rule.
Cheating would be under the unsportsmanlike conduct category. The rules have been simplified and explained thoroughly with cases and decisions for many different situations in the USTA Friend at Court which can be downloaded from www.usta.com. The point penalty system would be applied for cheating situations. As described above, USTA doesn't have a specific number of overrules that warrant a code violation. College does. The third overrule is a point penalty, fourth is a game penalty and 5th would be a default. Unless of course they have already received a code or codes, then it would be whatever is next in the sequence.BTW, does anybody other than me think the official rules governing tennis at all levels within the US would benefit from a comprehensive effort to simplify and thus clarify them?
im soory i didnt relze he was on the boards its my bad ill delete my cooments
fine yeah his name is Nick Simon
Yes, the cheating needs to stop! I just went to the Winter Nationals, in Arizona, in the 12's, and got cheated out of at least two matches. The same thing just happened to me in the Copper Bowl!!! And the sad thing is that these kids' parents don't even care. All they care about is that the kid wins the match!!
i am a parent that was at winter national 12s with my son, and i can tell you that katilon probably couldn't do anything about the cheating (nor could a parent or coach)...the first and second day at the main site (Randolf) there were 4 officials for 29 courts!!!! my son left his court during one match to get an official, and made the mistake of continuing play when nobody came... an hour and a half later, he lost the match on a horrible call...when i met with the head referee and tournament director afterward, they had a very pleasant smile, and apologized that it happened---that is all they do-smile and say sorry, we are low on officials...that is just one story, and there are many more that i know of...
a)
c) Anyone who points out a ball mark on a hard court is cheater or a cheater in situ.
While it doesn't make them a cheater to point out a ball mark on hard court, the marks on hard courts are not 100% accurate representations of exactly the entire ball hitting the court.Why do you say that? A fresh ball will leave fuzz on a hard court.
getting back on subject . . . . . . . I was competing at a doubles tournament when i saw this happen (btw, the names are fake)
It was 9-9 in a super tiebreak third set. So the winner of the point would get match point. Bobby and Mark were on the same team. Mark was at the net and Bobby was serving. Bobby served it in and came to the net. A member of the other team put up a perfect lob and it bounced about an inch inside the baseline. Mark tried to run it down but could not. Knowing that the call was close, his partner (Bobby) turned around looking at Mark to see what the call was. Mark subtly signaled the ball in so that only Bobby could see. However, Bobby shook his head and mouthed "call it out" to Mark. Mark called it out, the other team asked if he was sure and he said yes. However, justice prevailed and the other team saved match point and won the next two points to get the match.
I heard a rumor during Winter Nationals...