Lesson on how not to play

[atp2015]

Did anyone watch the AO ladies final?

Incredible how intellectually challenged players are in terms of match strategy.
It was very clear what the relative strengths were when you watch.

Why does a player keep repeating the mistakes over and over !

Stats out of curiosity-
Player A winner vs errors - 8/13 on fh side and 8/6 from bh. Player B - 19/26 on fh and 7/20 from bh side.

Clearly player A has weaker fh and player B has much stronger fh. Player A has very solid bh and player B struggles on bh side. But player B keeps going to bh to bh rallies.
Why is it so hard to figure out and adjust at the highest level of tennis? Don't remember watching such cringe worthy match recently.

 

[Sudacafan]

Did anyone watch the AO ladies final?

Incredible how stupid/dumb/clueless players are in terms of match strategy.
Player A winner vs errors - 8/13 on fh side and 8/6 from bh. Player B - 19/26 on fh and 7/20.

Clearly player A has weaker fh and player B has much stronger fh. Player A has very solid bh and player b struggled on bh side. But player B keeps going to bh to bh rallies.
Why is that so hard to figure out and adjust at the highest level of tennis?

It would help a little bit if you say player W and player H.

 

[atp2015]

It would help a little bit if you say player W and player H.

That needs a spoiler alert.

 

[MrFlip]

I would love to see a woman who can slice properly.

 

[Boom-Boom]

I would love to see a woman who can slice properly.

Steffi Graf

 

[Sudacafan]

Steffi Graf

Someone active. You needed to think about a woman retired almost 20 years ago.

 

[atp2015]

I would love to see a woman who can slice properly.

Vinci is probably the best slicer.

I was wondering about that too. If player B sliced to bring in player A and hit passing fh shots, player B would have won 6-2 6-3 today.
Player A was solid running side to side behind the baseline, but forward and up was so below average.

 

[Tommy Haas]

Halep was solid on both wings, where Woz got her was on shots that required Halep to improvise, come in, or return some off speed shot. Woz would have won much easier if she didn't try to go toe to toe with the endless cross court rallies.

 

[Sudacafan]

Vinci is probably the best slicer.

I was wondering about that too. If player B sliced to bring in player A and hit passing fh shots, player B would have won 6-2 6-3 today.
Player A was solid running side to side behind the baseline, but forward and up was so below average.

OK. Keep that coming, but could you use player X and player Y?

 

[Dolgopolov85]

Did anyone watch the AO ladies final?

Incredible how stupid/dumb/clueless players are in terms of match strategy.
It was very clear what the relative strengths were when you watch.
Just incredible how a player keeps repeating the mistakes over and over again.
Stats out of curiosity-
Player A winner vs errors - 8/13 on fh side and 8/6 from bh. Player B - 19/26 on fh and 7/20 from bh side.

Clearly player A has weaker fh and player B has much stronger fh. Player A has very solid bh and player B struggles on bh side. But player B keeps going to bh to bh rallies.
Why is it so hard to figure out and adjust at the highest level of tennis? Don't remember watching such cringe worthy match recently.

I would differ with you and say A played a smart match, smarter than she was expected to, and would have likely won in 2 but for B's MTO. Yes, B didn't get her tactics right but it's happened, like Fed insisting on going forehand to forehand with Delpo.

 

[atp2015]

Halep was solid on both wings, where Woz got her was on shots that required Halep to improvise, come in, or return some off speed shot. Woz would have won much easier if she didn't try to go toe to toe with the endless cross court rallies.

Did you see bh to bh exchanges. Woz was superior by a large margin. That's how she won.

 

[Deleted member 733170]

I would love to see a woman who can slice properly.

Flipkens slices well, though it’s probably because she can’t hit a topspin backhand.

 

[atp2015]

OK. Keep that coming, but could you use player X and player Y?

I thought you had copyright on the chromosome letters and didnt want to infringe.

 

[Deleted member 733170]

Eom

 

[atp2015]

I would differ with you and say A played a smart match, smarter than she was expected to, and would have likely won in 2 but for B's MTO. Yes, B didn't get her tactics right but it's happened, like Fed insisting on going forehand to forehand with Delpo.

Fed's wrong tactical choice is wrong for others too, is It not? Agree with you, player A was smarter to draw player B into bh to bh exchanges. But when player B had the choice, the right tactic was not employed.
It's no criticism of one vs the other.
But a lesson for others to learn from.

 

[Dolgopolov85]

Fed's wrong tactical choice is wrong for others too, is It not? Agree with you, player A was smarter to draw player B into bh to bh exchanges. But when player B had the choice, the right tactic was not employed.
It's no criticism of one vs the other.
But a lesson for others to learn from.

OK your OP came off harsh, like how could pro level players do that, so I gave an example of even Fed getting it wrong. We don't know what their thought process was going into the match. Going through the strength to the weakness is an oft used tactic and maybe B was trying to get a shorter ball of A's backhand to approach her forehand. But A produced unprecedented depth from the off which unsettled B and she was reacting thereafter rather than controlling the match. When you are playing on your opponent's terms, you do tend to look stupid.

 

[Soul_Evisceration]

I would love to see a woman who can slice properly.

Or make a backhand smash or a half volley. Guaranteed you're not going to find one.

It's already rare enough that they can't do a overhead smash.

 

[atp2015]

OK your OP came off harsh, like how could pro level players do that, so I gave an example of even Fed getting it wrong. We don't know what their thought process was going into the match. Going through the strength to the weakness is an oft used tactic and maybe B was trying to get a shorter ball of A's backhand to approach her forehand. But A produced unprecedented depth from the off which unsettled B and she was reacting thereafter rather than controlling the match. When you are playing on your opponent's terms, you do tend to look stupid.

You make a good point. It is not honest to say there was no criticism. I made the post as a lesson reminder to adjust your plan based on what happens on the court. The use of harsh words was for setting the background. Poor choice of words in op, I'll give you that easily.

It may have be the occasion or fatigue or ability, that forced the choices.
But It was so glaring and clear for someone watching. In the end, I felt sorry one player had to lose a very tough match.

 

[powerslave]

Nice thread ; I agree with the general observation that it was a very robotic game . To give some examples ; Halep lost some very critical points in the 3rd set even when she had opened up the court and had Woz on the stretch simply because she chose to play a forehand when she could have finished the point with a smash, on at least 2-3 critical points she got a pretty easy lob that was a sitter in middle of the court and she chose to simply use the forehand and play it in middle of the court for Woz to again restart the point by sending it back with some interest. Not using the backhand slice is a different problem , I think it is more to do with 'copy book coaching' where players are taught to only play a topspin backhand and slice is looked down upon as a shot when in real life a low slice with decent bite is a far better neutralizing shot as against a 2HBH on stretch that lacks the pop and pace.

 

[cluckcluck]

Looked at the stats:
0 approach shots from both
0 passing shots from both
0 lobs (though this could be a bad stat because every shot is basically a lob or moonball)
1 drop shot in the entire match
7 volleys total from both players
218 total points

So, that’s 96.4% of all shots were from the baseline...in bashing form.

 

[BeatlesFan]

Did anyone watch the AO ladies final?

Life's way too short to waste time on that.

 

[atp2015]

Life's way too short to waste time on that.

Agreed, it's way too shorter to post to ttw.

 

[the green god]

I would love to see a woman who can slice properly.

Or finish a point with just one freaking volley. Plus, when did these girls start backing up 10 feet and taking a lob in the air. Put your big girl panties on and hit a gawd d a m n overhead!!!

 

[Jmauer]

What I was surprised most by was the fact that player H did not play short angles versus player W.

I also noticed it in an earlier match when player H played player D - especially because player D was using the short angle off both wings so effectively herself.

Obviously player H also would have given player W fits if she came forward to finish volleys, as well - but to me I can accept the mentality of a baseline player who is so locked into that “mode” that they will not volley if they can help it - you see it a lot, and on both tours on the pro level (exhibit player Z).

But why/how player H did not play any short angles during that final is astounding to me as a spectator. Did she not realize how much that would open the court? Did her coach not point that out in the game plan? Or did she think of the ball came back perhaps she wouldnt be able to cut off the angle herself due to exhaustion/mobility issues? Idk

I do know at the meeting of the second set that player H actually did spin the ball more, giving her ball more natural angle through the court, and she won that set.

Then in set three back to driving the ball cross court and dtl but too close to the middle.

It was like watching someone bang their head against a wall, over and over and over again...

Felt for player H, especially considering the massive mental effort to keep fighting when down.

Credit to player W, who played some great defense in the last game.

Looked at the stats:
0 approach shots from both
0 passing shots from both
0 lobs (though this could be a bad stat because every shot is basically a lob or moonball)
1 drop shot in the entire match
7 volleys total from both players
218 total points

So, that’s 96.4% of all shots were from the baseline...in bashing form.

Stats not entirely reflective of the points. Player W came to net at key times. Player H was hitting passing shots (but not lobs) but none were clean winners.

There were drop shots (I can remember seeing player H employ this 2 or 3 times) and lots of swinging volleys and a few but not many overheads.

But the point made is accurate, that the match was played very much from the baseline.

 

[IowaGuy]

Someone active. You needed to think about a woman retired almost 20 years ago.

I think a player with a Graf-style slice backhand (deep, low, consistent) could dominate the WTA right now, if she had a decent topspin BH and a good FH to go along with it.

The current WTA crop of players wouldn't know how to handle Graf's slice and would pop a lot of balls up, or make a lot of UE trying to overhit a ball with no pace near the baseline.

 

[Sudacafan]

I think a player with a Graf-style slice backhand (deep, low, consistent) could dominate the WTA right now, if she had a decent topspin BH and a good FH to go along with it.

The current WTA crop of players wouldn't know how to handle Graf's slice and would pop a lot of balls up, or make a lot of UE trying to overhit a ball with no pace near the baseline.

I don’t like you are right.

 

[Fintft]

Clearly player A has weaker fh and player B has much stronger fh. Player A has very solid bh and player B struggles on bh side. But player B keeps going to bh to bh rallies.
Why is it so hard to figure out and adjust at the highest level of tennis? Don't remember watching such cringe worthy match recently.

And you think you are smarter then them? I beg to differ.

Halep went CC with her BH b/c her DTL was MIA.

 

[Fintft]

Nice thread ; I agree with the general observation that it was a very robotic game . To give some examples ; Halep lost some very critical points in the 3rd set even when she had opened up the court and had Woz on the stretch simply because she chose to play a forehand when she could have finished the point with a smash, on at least 2-3 critical points she got a pretty easy lob that was a sitter in middle of the court and she chose to simply use the forehand and play it in middle of the court for Woz to again restart the point by sending it back with some interest. Not using the backhand slice is a different problem , I think it is more to do with 'copy book coaching' where players are taught to only play a topspin backhand and slice is looked down upon as a shot when in real life a low slice with decent bite is a far better neutralizing shot as against a 2HBH on stretch that lacks the pop and pace.

Halep couldn't paint the lines today as well as in the semi- that's where Woz was superior.

 

[kishnabe]

Woz could have neutralized Halep forehand to forehand shots with slice forehand. The few times she did that, she was able to get to a neutral standing in the point...to take over eventually.

Halep always went cross court with her forehand...Caro got fooled on almost every time time till later in the match where she anticipated Halep CC forehand.

Halep and Caro...both were letting nerves affect their service game in the 3rd.....steady to unsteady.

Drop shots would have helped Halep...both times Woz got to the ball...dumped to the net. Woz could not get a volley over the net...too far away when she hit the volley (both dump before the net).

 

[IowaGuy]

I don’t like you are right.

Did you see any of Hsieh's matches at the AO? Have you watched any of Graf's classic matches against big hitters like Seles?

Hsieh's shots are just a fraction of what Graf's BH slice was like, and yet even the top WTA players couldn't seem to hit good, consistent shots off her junk slice.

They just aren't used to creating their own pace. They are much better at counter-punching off a ball that already has pace.

 

[yokied]

Player A winner vs errors - 8/13 on fh side and 8/6 from bh. Player B - 19/26 on fh and 7/20 from bh side.

Clearly player A has weaker fh and player B has much stronger fh. Player A has very solid bh and player B struggles on bh side. But player B keeps going to bh to bh rallies.
Why is it so hard to figure out and adjust at the highest level of tennis? Don't remember watching such cringe worthy match recently.

Your logic seems sound but in tennis terms it ain't. The one way to make your weak BH worse in stats and confidence terms is poor shot selection by going DTL to their FH prematurely. The DTL BH, particularly redirecting from CC, is one of the lowest margin shots and much, much lower margin than CC.

Sure it looks like Player A's having a good day on BH, but the match is being lost by Player B's problems, which are a) the errors to unforced - simply too many everywhere ... and b) the FH is not strong enough to compensate the BH.

 

[cc0509]

Did anyone watch the AO ladies final?

It was a competitive match. You can't ask for more than that. It was a lot more competitive than the last three men's slam finals.

 

[TimeToPlaySets]

I think changing strategy in the middle of a match is next level ****.
Very few people can do this. I guess pros may never had to have done this, if they always dominate.

 

[atp2015]

I think a player with a Graf-style slice backhand (deep, low, consistent) could dominate the WTA right now, if she had a decent topspin BH and a good FH to go along with it.

The current WTA crop of players wouldn't know how to handle Graf's slice and would pop a lot of balls up, or make a lot of UE trying to overhit a ball with no pace near the baseline.

True,slice is a great tool. Its useful for defence and to setup the next shot. Some of them hit amazing hit 2hbh, and i don't think wta level slice is going to cut it. I think Graff would have struggled against woz style top spin.

 

[atp2015]

And you think you are smarter then them? I beg to differ.

Halep went CC with her BH b/c her DTL was MIA.

Then why hit Dtl fh to get a bh response?

 

[Stretchy Man]

I think changing strategy in the middle of a match is next level ****.
Very few people can do this. I guess pros may never had to have done this, if they always dominate.

You don't know how to change strategy in the middle of a match?

 

[TimeToPlaySets]

You don't know how to change strategy in the middle of a match?

Not even close.
That takes years of experience.

I'm 100% focused on my own strokes.
They are only a few months old, and not even close to autonomous.
Focusing on the OTHER player's game is next level ****.

Even many pros don't know how to adjust
Chang was a disabled cripple against lendl, yet Ivan didn't drop shoot him once. He just played the game he drilled ad infinitum. The same hours for rec player, except 1000-fold.

 

[TimeToPlaySets]

Did anyone watch the AO ladies final?

Incredible how intellectually challenged players are in terms of match strategy.
It was very clear what the relative strengths were when you watch.

Why does a player keep repeating the mistakes over and over !

Stats out of curiosity-
Player A winner vs errors - 8/13 on fh side and 8/6 from bh. Player B - 19/26 on fh and 7/20 from bh side.

Clearly player A has weaker fh and player B has much stronger fh. Player A has very solid bh and player B struggles on bh side. But player B keeps going to bh to bh rallies.
Why is it so hard to figure out and adjust at the highest level of tennis? Don't remember watching such cringe worthy match recently.

Uhh, because you don't get to decide who is dictating the point, and where you would like to receive the ball?
Maybe the other player is aware of the statistics, and is hitting to the weaker side. 3D Chess.

Also, they do not have the luxury of pause, rewind, and Excel while tabulating data about a live match from their sofa.
Monday Morning QB, anyone?

 

[TimeToPlaySets]

I would love to see a woman who can slice properly.

Slicing is a low percentage shot.
Great chance it goes into the net, like Dimitrov demonstrated 50 times against Macz.
Also, with pro pace, great chance it sails long into the crowd.

 

[TimeToPlaySets]

Nice thread ; I agree with the general observation that it was a very robotic game . To give some examples ; Halep lost some very critical points in the 3rd set even when she had opened up the court and had Woz on the stretch simply because she chose to play a forehand when she could have finished the point with a smash, on at least 2-3 critical points she got a pretty easy lob that was a sitter in middle of the court and she chose to simply use the forehand and play it in middle of the court for Woz to again restart the point by sending it back with some interest. Not using the backhand slice is a different problem , I think it is more to do with 'copy book coaching' where players are taught to only play a topspin backhand and slice is looked down upon as a shot when in real life a low slice with decent bite is a far better neutralizing shot as against a 2HBH on stretch that lacks the pop and pace.

Usually, pushing wins. Less chance of dumping the ball into the net.
That's how she's at a GS final, and you're gorging on a prime time Belsen feast and sitting on the PC.

 

[Chadillac]

Slicing is a low percentage shot.

Slice is the highest percentage shot. Its just not as offensive, risk/reward type thing you get by hitting top/flat

 

[TimeToPlaySets]

Looked at the stats:
0 approach shots from both
0 passing shots from both
0 lobs (though this could be a bad stat because every shot is basically a lob or moonball)
1 drop shot in the entire match
7 volleys total from both players
218 total points

So, that’s 96.4% of all shots were from the baseline...in bashing form.

This is pretty much all of rec tennis.
This is why you should be practicing baseline stuff last.
And junk ball for the win.

 

[Bartelby]

Yes, well, given the interesting contest this match provided, male push-back was to be expected.

 

[Topspin Shot]

Did anyone watch the AO ladies final?

Incredible how intellectually challenged players are in terms of match strategy.
It was very clear what the relative strengths were when you watch.

Why does a player keep repeating the mistakes over and over !

Stats out of curiosity-
Player A winner vs errors - 8/13 on fh side and 8/6 from bh. Player B - 19/26 on fh and 7/20 from bh side.

Clearly player A has weaker fh and player B has much stronger fh. Player A has very solid bh and player B struggles on bh side. But player B keeps going to bh to bh rallies.
Why is it so hard to figure out and adjust at the highest level of tennis? Don't remember watching such cringe worthy match recently.

Using only winners and unforced errors to evaluate the strength of a forehand or backhand is misleading.

 

[IowaGuy]

Slicing is a low percentage shot.

@TimeToPlaySets - you might enjoy watching some of Graf's classic matches, she has one of the best slices ever. She could hit that knifing BH slice 10, 15 times in a row under pressure. Usually opponents would miss or pop one up (Graf had a huge FH) before Graf would miss her BH slice. Deep, low, skidding, unattackable by everyone except Seles (who Graf lead 10-5 lifetime head-to-head). Slice is a very high percentage shot in the hands of a skilled player. Particularly at the WTA level.

Here, at 1:03:10 in one of her classic matches agasint peak Seles (who was a beast), she hits 15 knifing slices in a row, most landing well behind the service line, before Seles hits an awesome winner DTL. In the 2nd video, at 06:20, there is some great footage from behind Seles, showing what the Graf slice looked like from the opponent's perspective. You can see that it would be difficult to attack that ball!

 

[Fintft]

Then why hit Dtl fh to get a bh response?

a) Duh, you need some DTL shots
b) Even her FH DTL wasn't working towards the end, so she hit it with some safety, after missing a couple, to no avail most of the time (as she couldn't finish those points that she had been in control).
c) They (she and her coach) might have other reasons as well: e.g. not to get Woz's FH going.

 

[atp2015]

a) Duh, you need some DTL shots
b) Even her FH DTL wasn't working towards the end, so she hit it with some safety, after missing a couple, to no avail most of the time (as she couldn't finish those points that she had been in control).
c) They (she and her coach) might have other reasons as well: e.g. not to get Woz's FH going.

You need to win points. High risk shot to opponents stronger wing is not going to do it.
DTL fh to bh was a bad idea after getting burnt 3-4 times. Ya, I need to hit some dtl - but why do you want to give up advantage?

 

[atp2015]

Uhh, because you don't get to decide who is dictating the point, and where you would like to receive the ball?

There's some choice if not all the time. Fh dtl as a rally ball gets bh response most of the time. Not smart to hit to fh from bh unless it's open court.

Maybe the other player is aware of the statistics, and is hitting to the weaker side. 3D Chess.

Also, they do not have the luxury of pause, rewind, and Excel while tabulating data about a live match from their sofa.
Monday Morning QB, anyone?

Sure it's mmqb. But the pattern was evident without the stats. I looked it up to check if the stats backed up what i thought was going on.

 

[atp2015]

Using only winners and unforced errors to evaluate the strength of a forehand or backhand is misleading.

It's one valid data point.

 

[IowaGuy]

I think Graff would have struggled against woz style top spin.

I'd put my money on the 22-time GS winner over the 1-time GS winner

There were big hitters in Graf's day as well - Seles, Sabatini, Hingis, Pierce, Davenport, etc. Graf generally got the best of most/all of them, especially in her peak years.