Lockout vs constant pull dilemma

[Magnitude Grey]

Hi,

i’ve been playing recreational tennis for over 20 years now, and around year 2008 i ran into an unusual problem.

the tennis shop that ive been coming to regularly suddenly changed their stringing machine to constant pull electronic machine, unlike the usual manual lockout, which ive been used to since the first day i hold tennis racquet.
i also use string savers, which somehow increases my spin and i liked it alot. One day i suddenly realize that my racquet becomes extremely stiff and it kinda hurts my arm. Months later that i first realized that the 2 stringing machine types produce different result.

anybody else had this problem? Because i always ask to string my racquet at 49 lbs in lockout machine. I tried to lower the tension in constant pull machine at 43 lbs, still feels very different when using string savers. Now i ended up stop using them, with much less spin and playability

 

[esgee48]

[/sarcasm] 1st world Issue! Why did it take you so long to ask this question here instead of asking the shop back in 2008? [/end sarcasm]

The nature of the pulling mechanisms are different. LO stop pulling when it senses 49#. eCP will stop pulling when the stringer tells the machine to stop pulling with some action. An eCP will pull a lot more plasticity out of a string than LO because it is constant pull. You can see this as Static Tension Losses in the TWU String DB. You were happy with a Dynamic Tension using an LO at ref tension 49#. What you need to find is the same DT with a much lower ref tension from the eCP. Depending on a bunch of factors you cannot control, you may need to drop a lot more than 6# ref tension. Or if the eCP has a LO mode, to use it for your frames.

 

[bigserving]

The two types of machines are definitely different and will produce different string job results. Not that either one is better than the other. It seems like you just need to get dialed to your preferred tension of the different machines and you will be golden. Better yet, get a machine of your own and add another dimension to increase your tennis fun!

 

[Boronite]

The two types of machines are definitely different and will produce different string job results. Not that either one is better than the other. It seems like you just need to get dialed to your preferred tension of the different machines and you will be golden. Better yet, get a machine of your own and add another dimension to increase your tennis fun!

My understanding is that crank machines are preferred by many shops because they can string faster on them. However, crank machines also have more variance. So, a high-quality constant pull machine should provide a more consistent stringbed. Whether or not the difference is noticeable I can't say for certain but it is my impression that the stringjobs I got back that were done on a Babolat Sensor were more consistent than those done on the Prince NEOS. It is my understanding that the basic mechanism of the crank makes it impossible to be as accurate as with a high-quality constant pull machine. Plenty of players are happy with floating clamp stringing on a machine with a platform that flexes; high precision may not be necessary for many.

 

[Wes]

...crank machines are preferred by many shops because they can string faster on them.

Well... that's not necessarily true.

the basic mechanism of the crank makes it impossible to be as accurate as with a high-quality constant pull machine.

That's definitely not true - especially if the geared track utilizes a "stop screw" (like virtually all Gamma lockout machines have).
The "stop screw" ensures that the crank mechanism starts in the exact same position prior to every single pull. This, in turn, keeps the distance (between the frame & the tensioner) exactly the same for each and every pull.

 

[Boronite]

Good to know. Everything I had read about crank machines said they have more leeway than constant pull machines.

 

[Magnitude Grey]

[/sarcasm] 1st world Issue! Why did it take you so long to ask this question here instead of asking the shop back in 2008? [/end sarcasm]

The nature of the pulling mechanisms are different. LO stop pulling when it senses 49#. eCP will stop pulling when the stringer tells the machine to stop pulling with some action. An eCP will pull a lot more plasticity out of a string than LO because it is constant pull. You can see this as Static Tension Losses in the TWU String DB. You were happy with a Dynamic Tension using an LO at ref tension 49#. What you need to find is the same DT with a much lower ref tension from the eCP. Depending on a bunch of factors you cannot control, you may need to drop a lot more than 6# ref tension. Or if the eCP has a LO mode, to use it for your frames.

I quit tennis for a while, and im trying to get back to it now. Thats why somehow i was wondering if there is solution to this longtime problem.

so you are suggesting to drop more than 6#? I might try that. I just realized that my rackets stays firm longer by using ecp, compared to the lo machine. Is it just my feeling or is it true that no matter what tension i do with ecp will never match something strung by lo? Thats bad news

yes well i really wish that tennis shop now have both machines so an unusual type of player like me can just ask for lo . I will call them and check it out.

wait you mentioned that there is actually ecp machine that have lo mode. So a ecp machine that will produce the lo type of tension is this accurate?

 

[First Serve]

wait you mentioned that there is actually ecp machine that have lo mode. So a ecp machine that will produce the lo type of tension is this accurate?

Yes. Though i have never used/ turned off the constant pull setting, it can be done on the Wise 2086 electronic tension head. I'm sure more expensive and sophisticated machines like a Babolat have the feature as well.

 

[esgee48]

You can replicate the feel of a string job from a LO with an eCP. One way is to use LO mode if the machine has the feature. Another way is to decrease the tension you use with the eCP. You just have to find the right tension with the new machine. Also tell the stringer to not pre-stretch, i.e. turn it off if it is on, because LO don't do pre-stretch. You stopped after one change, -6#. Try-8 and -10#. Once you found that new tension, use it for that string and frame. If you change strings or frame, you will probably have to find a new tension.

 

[Irvin]

Yes. Though i have never used/ turned off the constant pull setting, it can be done on the Wise 2086 electronic tension head. I'm sure more expensive and sophisticated machines like a Babolat have the feature as well.

They do not, the only eCP that has a lockout mode is the Wise. Also the LO mode on the Wise is not the same as a LO machine.

 

[Magnitude Grey]

You can replicate the feel of a string job from a LO with an eCP. One way is to use LO mode if the machine has the feature. Another way is to decrease the tension you use with the eCP. You just have to find the right tension with the new machine. Also tell the stringer to not pre-stretch, i.e. turn it off if it is on, because LO don't do pre-stretch. You stopped after one change, -6#. Try-8 and -10#. Once you found that new tension, use it for that string and frame. If you change strings or frame, you will probably have to find a new tension.

It seems to me that the easiest way to get my desired lo tension is to find the right tension on ecp. So far i have tried -6# the lowest. What do you suggest the furthest i can go down? I mean my lo tension is #49, if i go down #10 it will be #39 sounds pretty extreme!

 

[Magnitude Grey]

Yes. Though i have never used/ turned off the constant pull setting, it can be done on the Wise 2086 electronic tension head. I'm sure more expensive and sophisticated machines like a Babolat have the feature as well.

Is it a new kind of stringing machine? Called 2 tennis shops today asking about possible lo machine usage, but they have no idea what i am talking about. One of them even sounds grumpy. Hahah i guess the new gen dont really know the real goodness of lo, that low tension that just feels right to be used with string savers. It was golden, those days.

 

[esgee48]

This will be my last entry for this thread. Keep dropping tension until it feels right. You never mentioned what type of string, but with polyesters or thinner gauges, dropping 20% in ref tension helps a lot. As for you stringer not knowing if they have pre-stretch function on or not, that is a sign of someone who is clueless. Pre-stretch on an eCP removes plasticity, which appears to be something you want. Most players DO NOT want this because they want a longer stable string job.

 

[Arak]

In my experience, it all comes down to the pre-stretch function. Every time I ask the stringer (in shopping malls sports departments) to not pre-stretch, they don’t seem to understand. Then I realized that the machines were set up by some technician or left at default settings, and the stringers just string at the requested tension. One guy told me they don’t pre-stretch, but then I saw that the pre-stretch was turned on. Difficult to find good stringers where I live.

 

[Irvin]

It seems to me that the easiest way to get my desired lo tension is to find the right tension on ecp. So far i have tried -6# the lowest. What do you suggest the furthest i can go down? I mean my lo tension is #49, if i go down #10 it will be #39 sounds pretty extreme!

All the more reason to have your own machine. You can drop to 30 and see how you like it using a cheap $1-2 string. Then string your way up

 

[Rabbit]

@struggle here’s one just for you. No sense no proofreading no point

 

[WYK]

Good to know. Everything I had read about crank machines said they have more leeway than constant pull machines.

It's more the opposite. Almost no matter how slow you are with a lockout(and you wouldn't be - it is a very fast machine in use by someone experienced), the stringjob is like the last one. Whereas on a constant pull machine, you only need to be distracted for a moment before clamping and on some the CP head can pull tension, and pow, that's a different string job than it was gonna be just a moment ago, let alone last week or last month...
One of the main reasons I have a lockout is it is fast and repeatable. I only have to adjust the tension. I have had mine for 4 years and it still pulls within a lb of it's original calibration, regardless of weather or temp.
Also, I just love how they feel and act. *clack*

 

[Boronite]

Strange. Everything I had read said the reason high-end stringing machines have constant pull electronic mechanisms is for greater precision and that cranks are inherently less precise. It seems odd, then, that the high-end machines don't use cranks.

 

[john hempel]

If I remember correctly, the US Racquet Stringers Association (USRSA) has a software program that will tell you the adjusted tension if you're going from a lock out to a constant pull stringing machine, or, vice versa. I believe you have to enter the head size of the racquet along with the number of main and cross strings and the tension for which machine you have been using and it will give you the tension to use for the new machine. I've not used it years, but have used it in the past. Typically the adjustment was right around plus or minus three pounds depending on the earlier machine versus the machine now being used. Hope this helps.

 

[Wes]

Strange. Everything I had read said the reason high-end stringing machines have constant pull electronic mechanisms is for greater precision and that cranks are inherently less precise. It seems odd, then, that the high-end machines don't use cranks.

Both are accurate.
Now, you will almost surely need to use a different number (i.e. reference tension) when using a lockout/crank machine vs. when using an electronic constant pull machine - but that isn't the same thing as accuracy.

High-end electronic machines essentially make the task of stringing a racquet easier overall, so that it's more comfortable/less cumbersome for a person to string racquet after racquet.
In other words, high-end machines have many other "creature comforts" that make it even smoother/easier to get things done.

There's more to it - than just the tensioner.
Quality of the string clamps themselves... quality of the base clamps... quickness/ease of mounting & unmounting... having a diabolo vs. possibly not having a diabolo, extra functions which can be changed with a press of a button (i.e. different pull speed settings, different pre-stretch settings, display lbs. vs. kg, tie-off knot function, string measuring meter, etc.)... multiple "settings" that can be saved (in computer memory) to make it a breeze for more than one person (who are different heights or proportions) to use the very same machine, etc. etc.

 

[Boronite]

Both are accurate.
Now, you will almost surely need to use a different number (i.e. reference tension) when using a lockout/crank machine vs. when using an electronic constant pull machine - but that isn't the same thing as accuracy.

High-end electronic machines essentially make the task of stringing a racquet easier overall, so that it's more comfortable/less cumbersome for a person to string racquet after racquet.
In other words, high-end machines have many other "creature comforts" that make it even smoother/easier to get things done.

There's more to it - than just the tensioner.
Quality of the string clamps themselves... quality of the base clamps... quickness/ease of mounting & unmounting... having a diabolo vs. possibly not having a diabolo, extra functions which can be changed with a press of a button (i.e. different pull speed settings, different pre-stretch settings, display lbs. vs. kg, tie-off knot function, string measuring meter, etc.)... multiple "settings" that can be saved (in computer memory) to make it a breeze for more than one person (who are different heights or proportions) to use the very same machine, etc. etc.

Then, what you're saying is that both aren't accurate. The only statement that is accurate is that a crank machine (provided it has enough of a feature set, which includes quality components) is not inherently less precise than a high-quality constant pull electronic. It's reassuring to learn this since every shop and club in the area has crank machines, with one exception (and that place is drop-off only).

 

[Wes]

Then, what you're saying is that both aren't accurate.

No, that is not what I'm saying.
I'm saying that they are both accurate.
Although they work differently, both are accurate. I'm not sure why you're confused.

If I want to measure the length of my toothbrush...
I can measure it with my wooden ruler... or with my retractable tape measure.
Each of those works differently - but both are accurate.

 

[Boronite]

I'm not sure why you're confused.

I'm not.

I believe the problem is the vagueness of the statement "both are accurate". That can mean both claims are accurate and it can mean that both types of machines are accurate. I assumed it referred to the former since that was the original topic I brought up, not the apparent fact that the machines need separate tension targets.

• The original claim was that crank systems are inherently less precise than constant pull electronic systems (provided both types of system are of high quality, not undermined by shoddy particular bits, like bad clamps).

• The response was that that's not true, that crank systems can be just as precise as constant pull machines.

• Then, I said that it's interesting to learn this as it contradicts the claim I had read about the two types of tech.

• Then, you said "both are accurate", which can be read to contradict that observation or can be read, less obviously, as a subject change (the need to target different tensions due to differences in the way the machines operate). The use of underlining and italics for the word accurate suggests contradiction as well, as it possesses a lecturing tone.

 

[MathieuR]

the stringjob is like the last one

- variation one: if your cranking speed varies, the end-result varies
- variation two: change strings, and you have to figure out a new ref.tension to get same stringbed-stiffness.
- variation three: your cross-strings have string-string resistance, so same ref.tension will give much lower final results. (an cp will give you the option to move the cross-string during tensioning).
- variation four: if you don't start in exactly same position on the rail, more or less string is double pulled.

 

[blablavla]

Both are accurate.
Now, you will almost surely need to use a different number (i.e. reference tension) when using a lockout/crank machine vs. when using an electronic constant pull machine - but that isn't the same thing as accuracy.

High-end electronic machines essentially make the task of stringing a racquet easier overall, so that it's more comfortable/less cumbersome for a person to string racquet after racquet.
In other words, high-end machines have many other "creature comforts" that make it even smoother/easier to get things done.

There's more to it - than just the tensioner.
Quality of the string clamps themselves... quality of the base clamps... quickness/ease of mounting & unmounting... having a diabolo vs. possibly not having a diabolo, extra functions which can be changed with a press of a button (i.e. different pull speed settings, different pre-stretch settings, display lbs. vs. kg, tie-off knot function, string measuring meter, etc.)... multiple "settings" that can be saved (in computer memory) to make it a breeze for more than one person (who are different heights or proportions) to use the very same machine, etc. etc.

they can't be both accurate and yet provide different output.

if I want my frame strung at for example 23kg.
setting 23kg at a LO machine results for example in 20kg measured tension after stringing.
setting 23kg at an eCP machine results for example in 22kg measured tension after stringing.

they can't be both accurate.
they might be relatively accurate within the limits of the technology, but that wasn't the question of OP.
question was how to adjust the tension on eCP to have similar output to the LO, which means that at the same unaltered input the output is different, which can't happen with 2 accurate devices if we talk about accuracy in absolute terms.

 

[WYK]

- variation one: if your cranking speed varies, the end-result varies
- variation two: change strings, and you have to figure out a new ref.tension to get same stringbed-stiffness.
- variation three: your cross-strings have string-string resistance, so same ref.tension will give much lower final results. (an cp will give you the option to move the cross-string during tensioning).
- variation four: if you don't start in exactly same position on the rail, more or less string is double pulled.

Most of those don't make sense, or are issues you would have with any stringer.

Cranking speed? This is a tennis racquet stringer, not a model T. You can only crank so fast. You have to pull relatively slowly, or you'll lose the string. That variation can't be very much. I mean, I have seen some people trying to string as fast as possible on the internet - but they are having a laugh and not being serious.

You start at the same place every time on a crank. I have never seen anyone start at different places, even on youtube. The crank arm rests at the bottom of the turn - the crank arm naturally resets to 'home'. On mine, you can't even pull far enough on it to do much more than half a rotation when pulling tension. Thus, there's no way for it to end up in a different spot. When it's released, it HAS to go back towards 'home' to fully release the string. Cranks do not just suddenly release a string, the slack has to be taken up, and the crank moved back towards the chassis, thus it returns back to where you started. And cranks don't take multiple turns to pull tension unless it needs to go to 89bs or sumfin.

Now, you could argue on some of them that you can start a bit further back, and if you go from one shop to another with the same stringing machine, that the job will be different. But, in such a case, they are guaranteed to be different regardless of machine.

My point is, for the same user, it will be the same and consistent. Why would you suddenly string your racquets so differently the tension is different - you really would have to change the speed of which you crank drastically. Whereas on a CP, you only need to turn your head for a second if it doesn't lock, and your tension can change. On a lockout, that string stays in the same place. It might change if you leave it for a long time, but it won't change nearly as much in the instant it takes a CP to pull more tension, and it won't change as drastically since it won't be adding MORE tension.

If you change strings, it is the same regardless of stringing machine. Same with cross strings 'issue' you mention. You don't suddenly lose one of your hands when you string with a lockout. You can move the string and pull tension at the same time. I always push the cross, and it's sibling if necessary, straight as I pull tension on it.

You obviously don't have a lockout - they do not pull full force instantly. There is no way to double pull in one crank unless you do a full pull, wait for a moment, then unlock the crank and do another pull. Why would you ever do that unless it's a tie-off?

 

[esm]

they can't be both accurate and yet provide different output.

if I want my frame strung at for example 23kg.
setting 23kg at a LO machine results for example in 20kg measured tension after stringing.
setting 23kg at an eCP machine results for example in 22kg measured tension after stringing.

they can't be both accurate.
they might be relatively accurate within the limits of the technology, but that wasn't the question of OP.
question was how to adjust the tension on eCP to have similar output to the LO, which means that at the same unaltered input the output is different, which can't happen with 2 accurate devices if we talk about accuracy in absolute terms.

Wes did say that both can be accurate, provided using different ref tension... cos LO pulls differently to say an eCP.....

Both are accurate.
Now, you will almost surely need to use a different number (i.e. reference tension) when using a lockout/crank machine vs. when using an electronic constant pull machine - but that isn't the same thing as accuracy.

suppose at the end of the day, each eCP (Gamma vs. Wilson) and each LO (Gamma vs. Prince) can be different, as long as there is a consistency in the string method.... the OP may just need to spend abit of time to "trail and error" the ref tension between a LO and an eCP to get the similar result he/she prefers....

(i recall seeing a YT clip from @Irvin showing the LO drawback on the first, second and the third pull... which ultimately impacts the end tension reading...)



EDIT - forgot to add

i currently have setup 4 racquets for when i am able to play after the "extended" lockdown (self imposed)...

2 x by the old DW with the ref tension set at 54/50, and 2 x by the new eCP with the same ref tension at 54/50. all four racquets are suppose to be "similar" in their playability (in stock form) with very similar specs.... so i will be going through a trail and error period when i can start playing again, to find a "new" ref tension i can get used to with the new eCP..... hopefully won't take long... but who knows... (first world problem... i know...)

 

[Irvin]

i recall seeing a YT clip from @Irvin showing the LO drawback on the first, second and the third pull... which ultimately impacts the end tension reading...)

That’s correct, and if you double or triple pull you get closer and closer to the reference tension with 0 overshoot. If you check the tension on a LO 10 times with 10 different strings (especially with a Gamma machine with a string guide) you will get the same tension at lockout. After each pull may have less tension loss dependent on the string characteristics and how many time you tension the string. The tension spring on a LO also helps to maintain tension after lockout. If you only do a single pull as the string’s tension drops it is never fully recovered. But if you pull again the tension loss is recovered.

Cross strings, because of the friction resistance of mains and crosses, will have a lower than reference tension than the mains. Because of the friction resistance I would think it is more important to pull crosses 2 or even 3 times to give the string time to equalize tension from side to side.

On an eCP or CP machine you don’t have to pull more than once because the machine is doing it for you unlike the manual LO. I like CP machine because they are faster, assuming you want as close to reference tension as possible. I’m certain I could adjust the tension on a LO to get a tension close to a CP but as the head size, string stiffness, string to string COF, or string to frame COF changes I’ll still get (slightly) different results.

 

[Irvin]

Because we’re talking about accuracy look at what happens with an eCP. When the tension head pulls the string a load cell usually detects string tension and cuts off the pulling function. There are may not be some overshot where tension may go well above reference tension. As the string relaxes, tension drops, the load cell detects the drop, and re-pulls tension. As this on and off pulling is occurring the tension can go up and down by several tenths of a lb. when you actually clamp your string the tension could be +/- 0.2 lbs which is acceptable because after finishing the complete job I guess every thing evens out and no one can tell. On a LO there is no overshoot and time after time the tension is not off by even 0.1 lb. which one would you consider more accurate?

No matter what type of machine you use after a racket is strung tension is dropping even though you may or may not be playing with the racket. If you methods are sound, and your machine is well maintained, you can produce a consistent string job over and over again no matter what type of machine your using.

 

[Rabbit]

I wholeheartedly disagree with @Irvin in post #28 and agree with @Irvin post #29.

The upshoot of it is, the tensioning mechanism in use is the least important part of your stringer. The most important part is the clamps, IMO. Tension is just a number. Find your number and you're good to go regardless of what type tensioner you use. Folks get so hung up on tensioners, it's like they're comparing...well you know whats. I can't stress the bolded part enough. You absolutely do not need to pull your string 2 - 3 times or wrap the string around the diabolo twice or use a certain knot. All you need to do is pull the string to your satisfaction and play tennis for God's sake!

 

[Irvin]

Tension is just a number. Find your number and you're good to go regardless of what type tensioner you use.

And if your stringer changes from a lockout to an eCP machine it doesn’t matter? Or do you need To find a different number?

https://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/index.php?threads/lockout-vs-constant-pull-dilemma.674192/

EDIT: And if every stringer at a tournament is stringing with identical machines, and they are all using a standardized pattern there would be no reason for a player to request a specific stringer.

 

[struggle]

Most folks stick with the same stringer. When that changes, we have this situation.

The OP is merely trying to solve a simple problem.

Bringing tournament stringing into this is unnecessary, as well as MANY other points.

Amen!!

 

[bobleenov1963]

I had this experiment 4 years ago when I purchased a brand new alpha ghost machine . My regular stringer, who had 20 years in stringing, also purchased a brand new Prince NEO at the time, strung two of my son’s racquets, Yonex VCore 97, one on the ghost and one on the NEO, both with Wilson natural gut, no pre-stretch function on the ghost. He strung both racquets at 60 lbs. After he finished both racquets, he measureed the string tension with a string meter. Ghost has about 0.1lbs variations from 60 lbs while the NEO has about 0.9lbs from 60lbs. There is no question, according to him, that The ghost is a much superior machine to the NEO, IMHO. Then again, I am not at a level where I can tell the difference within +/- 5lbs

 

[Rabbit]

And if your stringer changes from a lockout to an eCP machine it doesn’t matter? Or do you need To find a different number?

https://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/index.php?threads/lockout-vs-constant-pull-dilemma.674192/

EDIT: And if every stringer at a tournament is stringing with identical machines, and they are all using a standardized pattern there would be no reason for a player to request a specific stringer.

Sorry it confused you. My point is don't concern yourself with the tensioning mechanism. Find the number associated with the machine and go with it which was in line with the OP.

My experience with professionals is exactly what I said. They come into town a few days early, get their frames strung and then zero in on a number before the real play starts. Once they acquire a number, they then adjust it daily....or not. I've been told by a world class stringer the big joke on tour is Nadal's tension. He's asked every time he comes in what tension and he thinks and replies 54. The reason? Most likely his Uncle Toni who made him use site stringers. My suspicion is to take gear out of his head.

With regards to your EDIT: comment, like most your arguments, it is specious. You cannot assign the level of feel a tournament player, i.e. pro, has to a club player. In other words, your experience is not the same as a pro's. There are multiple reasons they request the same stringer all of them having to do with consistency which equals $$$ to them.

Most folks stick with the same stringer. When that changes, we have this situation.

The OP is merely trying to solve a simple problem.

Bringing tournament stringing into this is unnecessary, as well as MANY other points.

Amen!!

Thank you so much for clarifying what should have been clear. Amen.

 

[WYK]

If accuracy is important, I don't feel a stringing machine is an option, but a necessity.

 

[Lord of Unforced Errors]

I wholeheartedly disagree with @Irvin in post #28 and agree with @Irvin post #29.

The upshoot of it is, the tensioning mechanism in use is the least important part of your stringer. The most important part is the clamps, IMO. Tension is just a number. Find your number and you're good to go regardless of what type tensioner you use. Folks get so hung up on tensioners, it's like they're comparing...well you know whats. I can't stress the bolded part enough. You absolutely do not need to pull your string 2 - 3 times or wrap the string around the diabolo twice or use a certain knot. All you need to do is pull the string to your satisfaction and play tennis for God's sake!

I agree with you. A lot of people get coat up in pointless arguments and forget the most important part in tennis, which is going out to the court to play tennis. A couple of lb/kg loss in tension does not make a huge difference. People, please grow up and focus your energy on hitting the ball clean and have fun. Life is not black or white.