Marat Safin's finest matches

[abmk]

I was thinking of starting threads about the finest matches of the 1/2/3/4 slam winners .

Matches were they performed at a very high level to demolish their opponents AND close dramatic matches ..

So this thread is for the safin matches. Starting off with:

1.Safin-sampras USO 2000 F:In his first GS final, a jawdropping performance vs 13 time GS champion in sampras, just outplayed sampras in every dept , returned his 115+ serves at the same speed, passed him at will, beat him in the baseline rallies, served pretty well . Arguably his finest performance ever.

2.safin-federer AO 2005 SF: Up against an absolutely on-fire federer, safin played his absolute best tennis for 5 sets, displaying great mental calm and cool. The best match that I've ever seen by some margin. It had everything: great serving, great returning, phenomenal groundstrokes, great netplay, amazing shots, great defense, great offense ....

3.safin-hewitt 2002 paris masters F: blew off world no.1 hewitt in pretty convincing fashion

4.safin-agassi 2004 AO SF: I'm surprised this match isn't mentioned much. Very high quality match with 2 of the finest baseliners at it on a surface perfect for them to display their best skills.

5.safin-federer TMC 2004 SF: federer played a near flawless set with some greattennis to dominate safin. However safin rebounded in the 2nd with the set being a good quality one. Then the TB that went to 20-18 . A very high quality one with safin showcasing his best offensive skills and federer his best defensive skills. A dramatic end !

6.safin-djokovic wimbledon 2008: In what was perhaps his finest grasscourt performance, marat took out no3 seed in novak djokovic in straights in 2008 when all thought he was done and made a nice little run to the semis. He just overpowered past novak who was sub-par

No limit on the no of matches ... Please feel free to mention any no of good matches .

I'll keep editing as the thread goes on

 

[piece]

1.Safin-sampras USO 2000 F:In his first GS final, a jawdropping performance vs 13 time GS champion in sampras, just outplayed sampras in every dept , returned his 115+ serves at the same speed, passed him at will, beat him in the baseline rallies, served pretty well . Arguably his finest performance ever.

I'm hesistant to dispute this point with you because I know you're a stat expert, but from what I remember of that match Sampras was actually getting the better of Safin from the baseline (and Safin dominated in all other departments). The youtube highlights of the match tell a similar story, but I know that's not necessarily a good indicator for the overall outcome of the baseline exchanges (or any other part of the match, for that matter). Is there something to this, or am I just plain wrong?

 

[boredone3456]

I'd add his 2008 2nd rd defeat of Novak Djokovic at Wimbledon. Straight setted the world number 3, wasn't really expected to win the match, and went on to the semi-finals.

 

[Colpo]

I'm hesistant to dispute this point with you because I know you're a stat expert, but from what I remember of that match Sampras was actually getting the better of Safin from the baseline (and Safin dominated in all other departments). The youtube highlights of the match tell a similar story, but I know that's not necessarily a good indicator for the overall outcome of the baseline exchanges (or any other part of the match, for that matter). Is there something to this, or am I just plain wrong?

Maybe there is something to it, but that's not my recall from having watched Safin's straight-set win back then in real time. What I recall was a dominant butt-whupping, punctuated by ridiculously clean, thunderous baseline shot-making by Safin. His hulking movements around the court also left an impression, reminding one that this guy was indeed a legit 6'5", 200 lbs'er who moved well and could just crush. When people say he underachieved over his career, that's a good indicator of who watched this match back then.

 

[abmk]

I'm hesistant to dispute this point with you because I know you're a stat expert, but from what I remember of that match Sampras was actually getting the better of Safin from the baseline (and Safin dominated in all other departments). The youtube highlights of the match tell a similar story, but I know that's not necessarily a good indicator for the overall outcome of the baseline exchanges (or any other part of the match, for that matter). Is there something to this, or am I just plain wrong?

well from what I watched, my impression was that safin won the majority of their baseline exchanges .....he had to , he was striking the ball ridiculously well and sampras was not ...... sampras could neither be at the baseline nor go to the net where he was getting passed ....

funny thing is he was able to somewhat hang with hewitt in the baseline rallies in their USO 2001 F, but came so many times to the net in that match, but then again that was probably because he had to attempt to end the points quickly ( he had played 3 former USO champs on his way to the finals and was not the freshest )

P.S your comment has me intrigued , maybe I'll watch it soon and get the difference in baseline points won

 

[abmk]

I'd add his 2008 2nd rd defeat of Novak Djokovic at Wimbledon. Straight setted the world number 3, wasn't really expected to win the match, and went on to the semi-finals.

yeah, that was quite impressive , needs to be on the list ...

 

[piece]

well from what I watched, my impression was that safin won the majority of their baseline exchanges .....he had to , he was striking the ball ridiculously well and sampras was not ...... sampras could neither be at the baseline nor go to the net where he was getting passed ....

P.S your comment has me intrigued , maybe I'll watch it soon and get the difference in baseline points won

I wouldn't be surprised if Safin did win more points from the baseline, what I'm remembering more is Sampras hitting more winners in baseline rallies than safin did, but I guess sampras was probably making a few more errors too. Still, if what I remember is right I'd think it might be a reason to rank Safin's performance against Fed in '05 above his '00 performance against sampras because of how freakin' well safin baselined to beat fed.

 

[Slazenger07]

I would say his finest match in terms of quality was his match against Federer in the Aussie Open Semi's in '05.

Unbelievable match

Saw the Tennis Master Series match where he played that 20-18 tiebreak in person. It was also fantastic quality.

 

[abmk]

I wouldn't be surprised if Safin did win more points from the baseline, what I'm remembering more is Sampras hitting more winners in baseline rallies than safin did, but I guess sampras was probably making a few more errors too. Still, if what I remember is right I'd think it might be a reason to rank Safin's performance against Fed in '05 above his '00 performance against sampras because of how freakin' well safin baselined to beat fed.

right on every count, sampras did hit more winners from the baseline, but made more errors .....I saw the match again and put up the stats too ... safin was indeed capable of doing better in the baseline-baseline rallies than what he showed in this match...

After seeing the match again, I think the AO 2005 SF performance was a notch higher ...though the highlights of the USO 2000 match might seem a tad more impressive !

 

[World Beater]

safin played a very clean match against sampras. it was arguable his best performance.

but he was a better player when he faced federer and had more skills at his disposal.

he was a better net player, his serve was more effective, he was mentally more mature, his forehand was also better. He had more endurance and was fitter.

 

[World Beater]

safin vs kuerten at RG was impressive.

safin vs agassi at RG.

safin vs phillippousis at Paris masters

 

[Mikael]

No mention of Safin beating Agassi at the 1998 FO 1st round?? I remember it being a pretty high quality match, and I think of it as Safin's big breakthrough much more than the 2000 Sampras match when Safin was already an established top 20 player.

EDIT: sorry, didn't see your post World Beater. I assume you are refering to FO 1998.

 

[Pwned]

Funny how the announcers at the 05 AO match against Fed stated near the end that they didn't think it was super high quality play.

 

[Mikael]

Funny how the announcers at the 05 AO match against Fed stated near the end that they didn't think it was super high quality play.

Does anyone have that match's stats? I actually don't recall it being all that clean. There were a bunch of great rallies but I found it to be a little uneven compared to other great 5 setters.

 

[abmk]

Does anyone have that match's stats? I actually don't recall it being all that clean. There were a bunch of great rallies but I found it to be a little uneven compared to other great 5 setters.

It couldn't be that clean. They were pushing each other to their very limits.Points which ought to be outright winners were converted to forced errors or else got back into play resulting in longer rallies leading to a forced/unforced error finally ......

fed had 72 winners to 59 UEs ( +13) and safin had 65 winners to 60 UEs (+5) from what I can recall

Here are krosero's stats for that match with the link to the official stats as well :

Safin d. Federer 5-7, 6-4, 5-7, 7-6 (6), 9-7
(63 games)

This is my own count:

Safin made 42 winners apart from service: 17 FH, 11 BH, 2 FHV, 7 BHV, 5 overheads.

Federer made 47 winners apart from service: 15 FH, 13 BH, 6 FHV, 6 BHV, 7 overheads.

So Safin's forehand, not Federer's, was the stroke with the most winners.


Safin’s winners by set: 8, 5, 5, 6, 18.
Federer’s winners by set: 9, 6, 10, 11, 11.

Look at Safin’s jump in the fifth. After four sets, in fact, Federer was leading in winners by 36 to 24. In the fifth set Safin hit 14 ground stroke winners, as many as he’d hit in the previous four sets.

Each man had 28 ground stroke winners. Federer led Safin in volleys/overheads, 19 to 14.

Safin got a service return error from Federer 29 times. Of these I judged 14 as service winners. Compare that to the 7 service winners that he was probably credited with officially as part of his overall total of 65 winners (including 16 aces).

Federer got a service return error from Safin 37 times. Of these I judged 7 as service winners. Compare that with the 3 service winners that he was probably credited with officially as part of his overall total of 72 winners (including 22 aces).

Official stats are here: http://www.usatoday.com/sports/tennis/aus/2005-01-28-safin-hope_x.htm

http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showthread.php?t=186895&highlight=federer+safin+stats


krosero,

do you have the unforced error stats by set for this match ?

 

[krosero]

It couldn't be that clean. They were pushing each other to their very limits.Points which ought to be outright winners were converted to forced errors or else got back into play resulting in longer rallies leading to a forced/unforced error finally ......

fed had 72 winners to 59 UEs ( +13) and safin had 65 winners to 60 UEs (+5) from what I can recall

Here are krosero's stats for that match with the link to the official stats as well :



http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showthread.php?t=186895&highlight=federer+safin+stats


krosero,

do you have the unforced error stats by set for this match ?

I once tried using webarchive.org to pull up those stats at the AO's official site, which break down by set; I just couldn't pull up that match.

 

[Anaconda]

Safin Def Roddick AO 2004 QF 2-6 6-3 7-5 6-7 6-4

Safin was in the wilderness of tennis at that point and Roddick was #1. This match is definately up their and got his career back on track again, for a few years at least.

 

[davey25]

I agree Safin's Australian Open victory vs Roddick was one of his best performances. Roddick is a bad matchup for Safin who doesnt return very big serves that well unless he is playing truly "zoned" tennis, so to beat Roddick when Roddick was #1 in the World and Safin was coming back from nowhere really was a great effort from Safin. And the quality of the match after the first set where a nervous Safin was badly outclassed at first but a very confident Roddick, was first class. Safin had to play some of his best tennis to come back and win.

The Australian Open semi to follow vs Agassi was amazing too. Sensational baseline tennis. Also shows what an amazing player Agassi was that at 34 he lost in 5 tough sets to a top form Safin after losing out on set points in both the 1st and 2nd sets (which he lost) otherwise probably a 3 or 4 set win over a top Safin. Safin showed some rare mental fortitude in that one too which was nice to see.

Luckily for Federer that Safin was out of gas for the final and wasnt able to display the same quality he had for his previous 2 opponents otherwise it probably would have been a dogfight resembling their 2005 match, since Safin was in stellar form in 2004 as well.

 

[abmk]

marat's level in AO 2004 was a notch lower than his 2005 level. He had no problems dispatching the lower ranked opponents in 2005 , whereas he did struggle a bit with regard to that in 2004. I don't think he'd have made it that close even if fully fresh in the finals. Probably would take a set off fed though

 

[abmk]

I once tried using webarchive.org to pull up those stats at the AO's official site, which break down by set; I just couldn't pull up that match.

oh ok. I thought you might have those stats since you put up the winner stats for that match.

yeah, even I tried web archive, didn't work

btw you noted that safin had more FH winners than federer, also note that federer had more BH winners than safin . Interesting eh ?

 

[krosero]

oh ok. I thought you might have those stats since you put up the winner stats for that match.

yeah, even I tried web archive, didn't work

btw you noted that safin had more FH winners than federer, also note that federer had more BH winners than safin . Interesting eh ?

It's true, the numbers are the reverse of what you'd expect. But then I can remember at least a few matches we've done for Connors (vs. Newk, Ashe, Rosewall), where he has more winners from FH's than from BH's, even though there's no question his BH was the stronger stroke. Sometimes there are more winners from the side that the opponent is going to more -- if that side holds up.

 

[krosero]

It couldn't be that clean. They were pushing each other to their very limits.Points which ought to be outright winners were converted to forced errors or else got back into play resulting in longer rallies leading to a forced/unforced error finally ......

fed had 72 winners to 59 UEs ( +13) and safin had 65 winners to 60 UEs (+5) from what I can recall

Would long rallies really lead to ue's? I think it might if the reason for the length of the rallies is that both men are playing poorly and can't put away their shots. But if both are playing aggressively and well, you'd have to expect forced errors -- or winners.

When I did the stats for Borg-Gerulaitis at 77W, I was wondering why there were so many winners (http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showthread.php?t=188239). I mean, beyond generally saying that the players were on fire, I just wondered if it was possible to say something more specific. If both men are playing well, and they're reaching everything, I can see why the rallies would go longer. And that match did have a lot of long, crazy rallies. But those rallies often ended with winners -- so I don't think you can necessarily even say that longer rallies of good quality end in forced errors. In Borg-Gerulaitis they ended with winners.

But most of Borg-Gerulaitis was SV, unlike Safin-Federer, so who knows. Interesting questions, though.

 

[abmk]

Would long rallies really lead to ue's? I think it might if the reason for the length of the rallies is that both men are playing poorly and can't put away their shots. But if both are playing aggressively and well, you'd have to expect forced errors -- or winners.

When I did the stats for Borg-Gerulaitis at 77W, I was wondering why there were so many winners (http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showthread.php?t=188239). I mean, beyond generally saying that the players were on fire, I just wondered if it was possible to say something more specific. If both men are playing well, and they're reaching everything, I can see why the rallies would go longer. And that match did have a lot of long, crazy rallies. But those rallies often ended with winners -- so I don't think you can necessarily even say that longer rallies of good quality end in forced errors. In Borg-Gerulaitis they ended with winners.

But most of Borg-Gerulaitis was SV, unlike Safin-Federer, so who knows. Interesting questions, though.

one reason I think would be the amount of SnV as you said, lots of volley/overhead winners and passing shots and fewer unforced errors ( since most of the errors with the other player at the net are classified as forced errors )

secondly, the surface of course ... grass in the 77 match vs rebound ace in the 2005 match

 

[krosero]

one reason I think would be the amount of SnV as you said, lots of volley/overhead winners and passing shots and fewer unforced errors ( since most of the errors with the other player at the net are classified as forced errors )

secondly, the surface of course ... grass in the 77 match vs rebound ace in the 2005 match

I agree with those reasons if you're comparing the two matches, but just to be clear my question is more about why Borg-Gerulaitis had more winners than other matches in its own time period. Maybe there's nothing more to say except that the two players were on fire (but I've wondered if it has something to do with those two men being the fastest of their time).

And I agree that surface is a factor in stats. If you're talking about a match and comparing it to other matches on the same surface, I think it's pretty straightforward: the match is lower quality, if it has more UE's than other matches on that surface. But if you compare across surfaces, the stats start changing.

Nadal-Federer in Rome, for example, had more UE's than winners. But does that really mean it was lower quality than Safin-Federer, which had more winners than UE's? I don't think so. On clay it's difficult to put away shots, so claycourt matches will have fewer winners. The match can still be called high quality. It's just the surface having an effect on the stats.

 

[Zacenroe86]

I was thinking of starting threads about the finest matches of the 1/2/3/4 slam winners .

Matches were they performed at a very high level to demolish their opponents AND close dramatic matches ..

So this thread is for the safin matches. Starting off with:

1.Safin-sampras USO 2000 F:In his first GS final, a jawdropping performance vs 13 time GS champion in sampras, just outplayed sampras in every dept , returned his 115+ serves at the same speed, passed him at will, beat him in the baseline rallies, served pretty well . Arguably his finest performance ever.

2.safin-federer AO 2005 SF: Up against an absolutely on-fire federer, safin played his absolute best tennis for 5 sets, displaying great mental calm and cool. The best match that I've ever seen by some margin. It had everything: great serving, great returning, phenomenal groundstrokes, great netplay, amazing shots, great defense, great offense ....

3.safin-hewitt 2002 paris masters F: blew off world no.1 hewitt in pretty convincing fashion

4.safin-agassi 2004 AO SF: I'm surprised this match isn't mentioned much. Very high quality match with 2 of the finest baseliners at it on a surface perfect for them to display their best skills.

5.safin-federer TMC 2004 SF: federer played a near flawless set with some greattennis to dominate safin. However safin rebounded in the 2nd with the set being a good quality one. Then the TB that went to 20-18 . A very high quality one with safin showcasing his best offensive skills and federer his best defensive skills. A dramatic end !

6.safin-djokovic wimbledon 2008: In what was perhaps his finest grasscourt performance, marat took out no3 seed in novak djokovic in straights in 2008 when all thought he was done and made a nice little run to the semis. He just overpowered past novak who was sub-par

No limit on the no of matches ... Please feel free to mention any no of good matches .

I'll keep editing as the thread goes on

Safin is my favorite player of all time..seen most of his matches from 1998 to his retirement. The good, the bad..and the uuuuugly (cough, Johansson Aussie Open, cough).

Two performances really stick out and you have them at the top. The match against Pete was pretty flawless..but I'd say his five set win over Fed was his highest overall quality. Fed hadn't dropped a set since the US Open against Agassi, had been playing such dominant tennis. Don't think Fed played near his best but it was a quality performance. Safin just reached into his depths and poured it on..scary when his mind was right.

Shame he will be remembered more for his racquet breaking prowess and mental fragility. Because that guy could have easily had 5-10 slams..