McEnroe vs Lendl - A look at the record

[Benhur]

Below I have compiled what seem to me the most relevant numbers on which to judge and compare their respective careers. The fact that they were clearly contemporaries (10 months apart) and that their careers overlap almost entirely (1977-1992 vs 1978-1994) makes the comparison relevant. I find that it is much more difficult to compare Connors with either of them for example.

GRAND SLAM PERFORMANCE

GS wins: McEnroe 7, Lendl 8
McEnroe: 3 W, 4 USO
Lendl: 2 AO, 3 FO, 3 USO

GS Runner-Up Appearances: McEnroe 3, Lendl 11
McEnroe: 1 FO, 1 W, 1 USO
Lendl: 2 AO, 2 FO, 2 W, 5 USO

GS Semifinal Appearances: McEnroe 8, Lendl 9
McEnroe: 1 AO, 1 FO, 3 W, 3 USO
Lendl: 3 AO, 5 W, 1 USO

===============

CAREER TITLES (recognized by the ATP)
McEnroe: 76
Lendl: 94

CAREER TITLES (including those not recognized by the ATP)
McEnroe: 88
Lendl: 144

DAVIS CUP TITLES
McEnroe 4, Lendl 1
Two important caveats in this category:
1. Davis Cup is a team competition, not an individual competition.
2. Lendl was unable to play Davis Cup for the best part of his career. He was expelled from his country's DC team in 1983, and he was not allowed to play for any other country.

MATCH WINNING PERCENTAGE (this is so close it can be considered a tie)
McEnroe: 0.817
Lendl: 0.818

NUMBER OF WEEKS AS #1
McEnroe: 170
Lendl: 270

HEAD TO HEAD RECORD
McEnroe 15, Lendl 21

=================

There are other figures that could be brought up, such Lendl’s run of 18 straight finals in 1981-82, or his 44 match winning streak (second best) or his 66 match winning streak indoors. Also, Lendl’s level of dominance during his 5 strongest years (82, 85, 86, 87 and 89) exceeds McEnroe’s on any year except his best two (83-84).

The main argument you hear for McEnroe is that his 7 GS wins are stronger than Lendl’s 8. To this, one can argue that Lendl’s 2 AO titles in 89 and 90 were won at a time when the Australian was clearly a grand slam, and were won against very strong fields with all the top players participating; that winning 3 out of 4 different slams is better than 2 out of 4, and that his ability as an all-surface player comes out stronger on Lendl's record.. By the time you include runner-up and semifinal appearances, the GS performance difference is pretty substantial. The remaining relevant categories (career titles, number of weeks as #1, winning percentage and head-to-head record are, as a whole, overwhelmingly in Lendl’s favor.

And this is why I do not see any objective, dispassionate way to look at their respective records and fail to reach the conclusion that Lendl’s is significantly better. I also believe that if they had ended up with each other’s record (while retaining their respective personalities and media treatment) this kind of discussion would probably not even arise.

 

[slice bh compliment]

Anyone ever see them play live? You could FEEL the tension. It was awesome.

Mac and Borg were amazing too, but this goes down as the greatest rivarly I've ever seen. The verbal shots at eachother, the actual shots at eachother, the sour grapes, the Haas vs Haagen Dazs diet thing, the French Open debacle for John, then the ass kicking Mac gave him at the Open at the end of that summer. The asskicking Ivan gave John at the Open a yr later. When filmed together recently, even after years of forgiving but not forgetting, you could still feel a their tension.

I still have a VHS copy of the Winning Edge video, where Mac and Lendl practiced and did drills to music. Their own voices on the instructional bits. Tons of slowmotion footage. In a sea of tennis videos with sensationalist tennis coaches and cyber BS, this is the masterclass. ANd it's kitschy, too, with music that could be on some 'totally 80s' compilation cd: Police, Cars, Quarterflash, Pretenders, etc. I still have ''Walking on the Moon'' in my head when I do a volley drill.

 

[Benhur]

Below I have compiled what seem to me the most relevant numbers on which to judge and compare their respective careers. The fact that they were clearly contemporaries (10 months apart) and that their careers overlap almost entirely (1977-1992 vs 1978-1994) makes the comparison relevant. I find that it is much more difficult to compare Connors with either of them for example.

GRAND SLAM PERFORMANCE

GS wins: McEnroe 7, Lendl 8
McEnroe: 3 W, 4 USO
Lendl: 2 AO, 3 FO, 3 USO

GS Runner-Up Appearances: McEnroe 3, Lendl 11
McEnroe: 1 FO, 1 W, 1 USO
Lendl: 2 AO, 2 FO, 2 W, 5 USO

GS Semifinal Appearances: McEnroe 8, Lendl 9
McEnroe: 1 AO, 1 FO, 3 W, 3 USO
Lendl: 3 AO, 5 W, 1 USO

===============

CAREER TITLES (recognized by the ATP)
McEnroe: 76
Lendl: 94

CAREER TITLES (including those not recognized by the ATP)
McEnroe: 88
Lendl: 144

DAVIS CUP TITLES
McEnroe 4, Lendl 1
Two important caveats in this category:
1. Davis Cup is a team competition, not an individual competition.
2. Lendl was unable to play Davis Cup for the best part of his career. He was expelled from his country's DC team in 1983, and he was not allowed to play for any other country.

MATCH WINNING PERCENTAGE (this is so close it can be considered a tie)
McEnroe: 0.817
Lendl: 0.818

NUMBER OF WEEKS AS #1
McEnroe: 170
Lendl: 270

HEAD TO HEAD RECORD
McEnroe 15, Lendl 21

=================

There are other figures that could be brought up, such Lendl’s run of 18 straight finals in 1981-82, or his 44 match winning streak (second best) or his 66 match winning streak indoors. Also, Lendl’s level of dominance during his 5 strongest years (82, 85, 86, 87 and 89) exceeds McEnroe’s on any year except his best two (83-84).

The main argument you hear for McEnroe is that his 7 GS wins are stronger than Lendl’s 8. To this, one can argue that Lendl’s 2 AO titles in 89 and 90 were won at a time when the Australian was clearly a grand slam, and were won against very strong fields with all the top players participating; that winning 3 out of 4 different slams is better than 2 out of 4, and that his ability as an all-surface player comes out stronger on Lendl's record.. By the time you include runner-up and semifinal appearances, the GS performance difference is pretty substantial. The remaining relevant categories (career titles, number of weeks as #1, winning percentage and head-to-head record are, as a whole, overwhelmingly in Lendl’s favor.

And this is why I do not see any objective, dispassionate way to look at their respective records and fail to reach the conclusion that Lendl’s is significantly better. I also believe that if they had ended up with each other’s record (while retaining their respective personalities and media treatment) this kind of discussion would probably not even arise.

I left out an important figure: career peak ELO rating. This is taken from Wuornos' post on ELO ratings.

Lendl 2769 (ranked 2nd after Federer in the open era)
McEnroe 2736 (ranked 7)

 

[Lendl and Federer Fan]

Benhur, you are my national treasure, your tennis knowledge is just impressive. Nice statistics here.

and Cyborg too.

 

[krosero]

Below I have compiled what seem to me the most relevant numbers on which to judge and compare their respective careers.

To be precise this is a comparison of their singles careers. I know that singles is presumed, but in this case the issue is brought up by Davis Cup, which I'm glad you included.

DAVIS CUP TITLES
McEnroe 4, Lendl 1
Two important caveats in this category:
1. Davis Cup is a team competition, not an individual competition.
2. Lendl was unable to play Davis Cup for the best part of his career. He was expelled from his country's DC team in 1983, and he was not allowed to play for any other country.

Lendl couldn't have been expelled in 1983 (not permanently, anyway), because he played in 1984 and 1985.

See his page at the Davis Cup site: http://www.daviscup.com/teams/player.asp?player=10000792

And McEnroe has 5 titles not four: 1978-79, 1981-82 and 1992. In '92 he only played doubles, but it was still a title.

Let me suggest here that for comparing their singles careers, the number of titles is not as important as their singles win-loss record in Davis Cup. The titles are shared with others, but the singles record is the money stat here.

Becker and Borg, for example, have such outstanding singles records in Davis Cup that those numbers are always included in lists of their career highlights. The fact that Becker was on two winning teams, and Borg on one, is less important when you're just looking at singles careers, because titles are shared with others and they include doubles matches.

McEnroe's win-loss in Davis Cup is 41-8. Lendl's, at the page linked above, is 18-11.

Those stats don't have to be listed with caveats about teamwork.

The caveat about Lendl's being banned would still apply, but if it's going to be mentioned that Lendl was absent from some event for whatever reason, then it's fair play to mention things like McEnroe missing some Australian Opens for various other reasons.

In short I think Davis Cup win/loss in singles can be mentioned like any other stat, without caveats.

Incidentally McEnroe's career record in doubles is impressive and everyone knows about it (like being ranked #1 for 257 weeks), but even in a comparison of singles I'd give it at least a nod. Lendl's singles numbers are heftier, but McEnroe spent an awful lot of time on the pro tour playing matches of every kind, while Lendl concentrated on singles.

 

[Benhur]

To be precise this is a comparison of their singles careers. I know that singles is presumed, but in this case the issue is brought up by Davis Cup, which I'm glad you included.
Lendl couldn't have been expelled in 1983 (not permanently, anyway), because he played in 1984 and 1985.

You are right. It must have been a temporary expulsion (on account of his playing an exhibition in South Africa) I was not aware he was reinstated.

And McEnroe has 5 titles not four: 1978-79, 1981-82 and 1992. In '92 he only played doubles, but it was still a title.

Yes. I had mistakenly taken titles only after 79 based on quick reading of the wikipedia page on Mcenroe. On the other hand, the 1992 DC title playing only doubles should probably not be included in any singles comparisons, which is what we are comparing (more on this below).

Let me suggest here that for comparing their singles careers, the number of titles is not as important as their singles win-loss record in Davis Cup. The titles are shared with others, but the singles record is the money stat here. McEnroe's win-loss in Davis Cup is 41-8. Lendl's, at the page linked above, is 18-11. Those stats don't have to be listed with caveats about teamwork.

But the singles win-loss record in Davis Cup is already part of the overall singles win-loss record. You can single out the DC record to showcase it, but then why not single out the record in other competitions. I agree that the GS record should be singled out, but I tend to consider DC as one more competition, certainly not on a par with GS.

The caveat about Lendl's being banned would still apply, but if it's going to be mentioned that Lendl was absent from some event for whatever reason, then it's fair play to mention things like McEnroe missing some Australian Opens for various other reasons.

The reasons are not on the same plane. There is a distinction between inability to play and electing not to play (for whatever reasons).

In short I think Davis Cup win/loss in singles can be mentioned like any other stat, without caveats.

It depends on the relative importance you assign DC play with respect to other competitions. In any case, the caveats about inability to play seem relevant to me.

Incidentally McEnroe's career record in doubles is impressive and everyone knows about it (like being ranked #1 for 257 weeks),

I will be the first to acknowledge that McEnroe was probably the best doubles player of all time. His partner, Fleming, put it well when he was asked what was the best doubles team in the worl. He said: "McEnroe and anybody else." A bit of an exaggeration, but not by much.
However, it should be clear we are comparing singles careers. There are excellent doubles players whose singles careers are completely forgettable, or almost nonexistent. Their accomplishments in doubles do not get imported into their singles record.

but even in a comparison of singles I'd give it at least a nod. Lendl's singles numbers are heftier, but McEnroe spent an awful lot of time on the pro tour playing matches of every kind, while Lendl concentrated on singles.

It is precisely because Lendl's singles numbers are clearly "heftier" that I believe the comparison (in their singles careers) can be easily and objectively settled. Don't get me wrong, I don't believe the difference is huge, not at all, but a look at their singles records tells me it is significant enough to settle the discussion in Lendl's favor. I do think McEnroe was an absolute tennis genious at his best, and I enjoy watching his old matches much more now than when he played, because then I was very put off by his intolerable spoiled brat antics. I do think he got away with murder too many times, and things like his obnoxious verbal abuse of empires, or his smashing glass bottles on the court, would not be tolerated of almost anyone else. And they should not have been tolerated at all. It took the tennis establishment more than a decade for some Australian officials to finally muster enough sense to default him for verbal abuse. Maybe he didn't fulfill his full potential. But these are imponderables. The record is all we have, and the record tells me he is a clear notch below Lendl in singles accomplishments.

Another aspect of my penchant for Lendl is that I've always enjoyed that particular style of agressive clean-striking baseline play. The sustained, intense concentration it takes can be breathtaking. Some of my favorite points in tennis are in matches between Lendl and early Agassi (their two semifinals at the USO in the late 80s) as well as some of his baseline exchanges with Becker, or even between against Wilander, particularly the 1987 Masters final where I think Lendl put together his best three consecutive sets of tennis (in a big match anyway).

Since those days, that style of play has been superseeded by only one player: Federer. His baseline play during his peak (2004-2007) is like an enhanced version of Lendl. I would have loved to see those two grow up as contemporaries and slug it out from the baseline. Both at their best, I think Federer would come out on top, but not by as much as many may think. Federer never had to deal with a baseliner like Lendl, then again Lendl never had to deal with someone like Federer.

Of McEnroe I mostly appreciate his magician touch at net. Many of his volleys look like sheer magic. Yet the guy could at times also rally from the baseline. I remember in particular the 1984 USO semifinal agaisnt Connors....

But all things considered, based strictly on the record, I am convinced Lendl comes out ahead.

 

[hoodjem]

When filmed together recently, even after years of forgiving but not forgetting, you could still feel a their tension.

Where?

Mac said he still has nightmares about losing in the 1984 FO final to Lendl.

 

[slice bh compliment]

Where?

Mac said he still has nightmares about losing in the 1984 FO final to Lendl.

NYC, eve of the Open last year. Or ws it 06? They hit a few outside on a makeshift street tennis ct.

 

[Moose Malloy]

Anyone ever see them play live?

which of their matches did you see live?

 

[krosero]

But all things considered, based strictly on the record, I am convinced Lendl comes out ahead.

I also consider Lendl ahead (in singles, as you're saying). For the rest, we've both made our points and obviously it's your list and your call.

 

[hoodjem]

Obviously, Lendl has the edge in singles.

I consider Mac to have had more pure tennis talent, and Lendl to have worked harder to achieve what he did.

I think Mac's doubles play helped him overall; it made him a better volleyer. (Is this what Nadal is up to lately?)

 

[Lendl and Federer Fan]

Everyone has to work hard to live up to his/her full potential. Example, if Federer could not train hard because of the Mono, he lost the Australia semifinal.

It is gifted talent to have a monster forehand like Lendl, BigMac's forehand is really unnatural, which makes him want to charge to the net as often as possible.

 

[vwfye]

also remember, mac avoided the AO for several years... that effects the numbers a bit too.

 

[msunderland71]

Avoided the AO, and was defaulted from it in 1990!
Both were the result of choices he made. Should we give him credit for not going in it? No way!

also remember, mac avoided the AO for several years... that effects the numbers a bit too.

 

[Lendl and Federer Fan]

Avoided the AO, and was defaulted from it in 1990!
Both were the result of choices he made. Should we give him credit for not going in it? No way!

Exactly, maybe the throat hurts, breathing problem, or foot blister.

 

[vwfye]

all i did was make an observation. if you want the stats to be looked at, you sometimes have to consider the stats that aren't there. again, just an observation.

 

[OrangeOne]

all i did was make an observation. if you want the stats to be looked at, you sometimes have to consider the stats that aren't there. again, just an observation.

You would get along well with Donald Rumsfeld.

"We know there are known knowns: there are things we know we know. We also know there are known unknowns: that is to say we know there are things we know we don't know. But there are also unknown unknowns - the ones we don't know we don't know." –Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld

 

[Lendl and Federer Fan]

You would get along well with Donald Rumsfeld.

Orange man, you are one cool dude afterall.