More important to arm friendliness - RA or string setup?

[Scoop]

I'm trying to work my way to a bigger racquet head and had a bout with TE many years ago. I ended my ProStaff playing days long ago and currently play Volkl PB10 mid (93 in). In my pursuit of the right stick, is there a standard feeling about the arm impact of the racquet stiffness compared to string setup?

For example, today I play with an RA 59 but with a poly setup. How would that feel compared to an RA65 with full nat gut?

I have tried a few of the normal recommendations with similar RA ratings but find the demo process unfulfilling because demos are never strung with your current setup and tension. So, trying to come at this from a different angle by possibly going outside my normal "arm friendly" definition of low RA.

Thanks for any help!

 

[aaron_h27]

The full nat gut would be softer.

If you have a high enough SW (340 or more), you can use any RA as the weight of the racket will give you more comfort.

 

[Scoop]

The full nat gut would be softer.

If you have a high enough SW (340 or more), you can use any RA as the weight of the racket will give you more comfort.

Thanks for the reply. So you're saying hypothetically an RF97 with full gut would be more arm friendly than my current Volkl with poly?

 

[aaron_h27]

Thanks for the reply. So you're saying hypothetically an RF97 with full gut would be more arm friendly than my current Volkl with poly?

I don't know what the SW is of the Volkl.

Generally speaking anything with full gut would be more arm friendly than poly and have better tension maintenance. Poly is for college/pro players who hit with a lot of topspin and can re-string frequently. Full natty gut in a 16x19 frame gives me more than enough spin as a 5.0 player.

You can just add lead at 12 to a frame to give it more SW and make it more arm friendly instead of switching frames.

 

[fuzz nation]

Thanks for the reply. So you're saying hypothetically an RF97 with full gut would be more arm friendly than my current Volkl with poly?

I've been stringing, teaching, coaching high school teams, etc. for about 15 years and I've kept a keen eye on the string issue for quite a while. Based on what I've seen up close with different players and different equipment, I absolutely believe that softer strings are the #1 priority for getting an arm-friendly rig.

One example: A pal of mine was sidelined with severe tennis elbow after trying a poly setup in his Pure Drive Roddicks. He rehab'ed for at least two months and once he felt healthy again, he didn't get rid of those racquets. He strung them with natural gut when he was ready to get back to the courts and he didn't have a single twinge or setback of any kind with that string. If I hadn't seen it myself, I wouldn't have believed it.

I'd expect the RF 97 strung with gut to be the more arm-friendly hypothetical option. I've played Volkls for a number of years and have loved both their comfort and performance strung with syn. gut. About 15 months ago I strung one of my supremely arm-friendly Volkl C10's with a full bed of poly tensioned at perhaps 44 lbs., used it twice for only 20-30 mins. per session, and it absolutely annihilated my arm. The softness of the racquet was completely undone by the stiff string. Just my story.

 

[Dartagnan64]

I’d agree poly is the number one issue. I think low RA rackets get a lot of their benefits from being low powered enough to play well with arm friendlier string set ups.

 

[dak95_00]

String all of the way! Low RA is so overblown.

People learn to play with a certain type of stick. From there, string is the only variable. Switching frames is more disastrous than switching string. Switch both and you’re just asking for trouble.

 

[aaron_h27]

String all of the way! Low RA is so overblown.

People learn to play with a certain type of stick. From there, string is the only variable. Switching frames is more disastrous than switching string. Switch both and you’re just asking for trouble.

RA can always lower over time too the more you play with a racket.

 

[Dartagnan64]

String all of the way! Low RA is so overblown.

People learn to play with a certain type of stick. From there, string is the only variable. Switching frames is more disastrous than switching string. Switch both and you’re just asking for trouble.

I think low RA is overblown because it’s a flawed measure. It really depends more where the frame flexes than the number a machine spits out.

Babolat tends to Play as stiff as it’s RA. Head tends to play stiffer than it’s RA. Prince tends to play softer than it’s RA. One frames 63 is not the same as another’s.

Strings at least are consistent in their softness.

 

[Scoop]

Thanks for all of the great replies.

I don't have TE issues right now but never want to go down that path again. I thought the C10 pro would be a good stepping stone from the PB10 mid and it's been a big letdown for me. I have a brand new one with 5 hours on it sitting in a closet. I'm just so used to the feel and control of the 93in head.

My next step is to try out a few frames in the low to mid 60's RA and try them out with nat gut to see if I can find a better stick.

 

[Bartelby]

I think if the RA is at most 70-72 it might be the string, but the one 74 racquet I had was a problem no matter what.

 

[teachingprotx]

Argh I bet you would have loved the volkl tour 93 softer than the c 10 pro

 

[Kevo]

Strings, especially real gut, can soften pretty much anything. Having said that, a really flexible frame can be pretty friendly with almost any string for a healthy arm. The problem is unless you go to an older frame, almost everything you can buy off the shelf today is mid 50s RA or higher. I think to get a really friendly frame you want to be mid 40s or lower.

But if you like your frame, but some gut in it and see how you like it. Gut is soft feeling at pretty much any tension, so it's probably the single best thing you can do for your arm if you have arm troubles and want to keep playing.

 

[The Big Kahuna]

I would also add that the third wild card here is racquet WEIGHT. The less mass the racquet has the more of the impact shock gets transferred into your arm.

The worst case scenario for tennis elbow would be a light stiff racket with stiff string. Obviously the opposite of that would be the best case scenario.



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[mike schiffer]

I've been stringing, teaching, coaching high school teams, etc. for about 15 years and I've kept a keen eye on the string issue for quite a while. Based on what I've seen up close with different players and different equipment, I absolutely believe that softer strings are the #1 priority for getting an arm-friendly rig.

One example: A pal of mine was sidelined with severe tennis elbow after trying a poly setup in his Pure Drive Roddicks. He rehab'ed for at least two months and once he felt healthy again, he didn't get rid of those racquets. He strung them with natural gut when he was ready to get back to the courts and he didn't have a single twinge or setback of any kind with that string. If I hadn't seen it myself, I wouldn't have believed it.

I'd expect the RF 97 strung with gut to be the more arm-friendly hypothetical option. I've played Volkls for a number of years and have loved both their comfort and performance strung with syn. gut. About 15 months ago I strung one of my supremely arm-friendly Volkl C10's with a full bed of poly tensioned at perhaps 44 lbs., used it twice for only 20-30 mins. per session, and it absolutely annihilated my arm. The softness of the racquet was completely undone by the stiff string. Just my story.

So true....the string is the thing...I had a C10 strung with poly and sold it because it was too "boardy" before I had figured out it was the poly.....we got to get the word out to people starting out and people suffering with arm issues about the liability of poly....I think the new wave of racquets like the Clash and the prince thin beams will hopefully bring more focus on arm health....then maybe strings will also get under the lens....it took me 2 plus years of active play and searching to find the truth about protecting my arm from further damage....I cant play five minutes with poly without risking next day pain...Foam cores...thin beams... lower RA's....soft strings...and good technique....also more practice time rather than just match play will be part of the picture of long term arm health...

 

[chrischris]

I had my Rossignol 200 strung with tf black code 17 gauge mains and tf x one biphase 16 gauge x’s at 53 pounds and then full bed black code 17 gauge at 48 ..
To me the hybrid was way more elbow lovin...

 

[aaron_h27]

Also forgot to mention I find 16x19 more arm friendly than 18x20. 18x20 is very boardy unless you use thinner gauges which limits the amount of strings you can use. In 16x19 you can go thick or thin and have more options. Just my opinion

 

[Dartagnan64]

I always view arm friendliness like I view car collisions. Picture hitting a Fiat 500 with your car. As the driver, which situation will allow you to walk away uninjured.

1) Small car no air bags or crumple zones (light stiff racket with poly strings)
2) SUV with no air bags or crumple zones (heavy stiff racket with poly strings)
3) SUV with crumple zones no air bags (heavy flex racket, poly strings)
4) SUV with crumple zones and air bags (heavy flexible racket with multi strings)

 

[Garro]

For me personally the racquet is more important than the string. I had a couple racquets that I really liked but that were hurting my arm. I tried to soften them up with natural gut but it didn't help enough. The Classic Response 97 and the Wilson Blade Team 99.

On the other hand if the racquet is very flexible (Tour 98 ESP, Phantom Pro 100 etc) I can use poly and still have decent comfort.

 

[teachingprotx]

Flex is most important then weight and balance I’m a freak as I enjoy light frames that are soft and Uber flexible and still after all that is said and done if the balance is even it’s trash . I have to have very head light in order to feel confident . No matter the frame

 

[CosmosMpower]

I think strings are more important but you should consider the whole package.

 

[movdqa]

I use an IG Prestige with full poly at 52 pounds and find it comfortable. The racquet is leaded up to about 13+ ounces and has a hefty swingweight. The racquet also has a decent twistweight. I also did an RF97 playtest many years ago and the RA is 67 but I found it just as comfortable as the IG Prestige - likely because it has a decent twistweight. I have also used the YT Prestige that weighs a little less but has the same swingweight. It has a lower twistweight and isn't as comfortable as the IG but I find it usable.

So the factors for me are RA, Twistweight, Strings, and Static Weight. It is hard for me to give up Poly. I have tried softer strings and always go back to poly.

I had a very bad case of TE back around 2010 or 2011 and had to take six months off of tennis to recover. So I do pay attention to my arm health.

 

[1HBHfanatic]

i demo alot of racquets
if the balance is not close to what i like, then my arm/wrist will hurt (no matter whats on it or what the racquet its made off),
strings/tension finetune the equation to the proper balance,, 4me
however, each persons "swing", can also change the way a racquet feels
ppl with fast rpms would like light frames
while classic hitters would find heavier options better feeling

 

[jmacdaununder2]

For me personally the racquet is more important than the string. I had a couple racquets that I really liked but that were hurting my arm. I tried to soften them up with natural gut but it didn't help enough. The Classic Response 97 and the Wilson Blade Team 99.

On the other hand if the racquet is very flexible (Tour 98 ESP, Phantom Pro 100, Triad Five, etc) I can use poly and still have decent comfort.

Imagine hitting the Tour 98 ESP with full gut; it would be like a make out session with Kate Upton.

 

[Simplicius]

I’d agree poly is the number one issue. I think low RA rackets get a lot of their benefits from being low powered enough to play well with arm friendlier string set ups.

I think low RA is overblown because it’s a flawed measure. It really depends more where the frame flexes than the number a machine spits out.
Babolat tends to Play as stiff as it’s RA. Head tends to play stiffer than it’s RA. Prince tends to play softer than it’s RA. One frames 63 is not the same as another’s.
Strings at least are consistent in their softness.

I agree with Dartagnan to all the above.
In my case the high RA is not the problem itself, it's the high Racquet Vibration Frequency which almost all high RA racquets have (and unfortunately some with not so high RA) ... That's why I choose RA over string setup... Beside this, we can change the strings regularly - even every week If you want - but not the racquet... A low RA racquet with a Racquet Vibration Frequency close to 130 is a good base to start the experimentation with the (so many different) strings...
You can really test this (pls do NOT try this at home !!! lol) when you frame the ball! No one friendly string is going to save your arm then. It's only ...frame!

Finally, a stiff powerful racquet have to strung high in order to keep the ball in and this usually hurts...

 

[kvan]

This thread (and the videos linked in it) are definitely worth a look. It's a really hard to get an end-all-be-all answer to this question. There are so many weight, RA, and string combinations, but ultimately finding something that works for you is what really matters.

If you find a string that lets you play the way you want with no discomfort, great. Otherwise, it really is a mass-balance issue. Tinkering with weight far away from a racquet's balance point will help transfer less unwanted shock to your arm, but will also increase swing weight.

Although I don't always 100% agree with what is said in these youtube videos, they offer some great insight into racquet specs. Swing weight, twist weight, recoil weight, and RA of a racquet are all different and I really wish racquet manufacturers were more open and comprehensive concerning these connected, but fundamentally separate racquet specs.

 

[weelie]

If you have a high enough SW (340 or more), you can use any RA as the weight of the racket will give you more comfort.

This to me sounds counter intuitive. I feel my elbow hurts if I take a full on practice swings with a very high SW racket, I mean even without hitting anything with racket. So I've gone to low SW but high static weight (well, not that high, but like 12.5oz), basically all the added weight (~65g) is in the handle or just above it. When I've played higher SW rackets, like RF97 or 104SW, I feel in the my forearm.

 

[Dominic]

Strings and the tension they are strung at are to me, the biggest influence on any arm pains. I played a speed pro 18x20 with tight poly and first time my arm ever really hurt. Changed to a softer string at lower tension..and ended up using the racket for a few years...

 

[Garro]

This to me sounds counter intuitive. I feel my elbow hurts if I take a full on practice swings with a very high SW racket, I mean even without hitting anything with racket. So I've gone to low SW but high static weight (well, not that high, but like 12.5oz), basically all the added weight (~65g) is in the handle or just above it. When I've played higher SW rackets, like RF97 or 104SW, I feel in the my forearm.

I have pretty much the same problem. Except for me my swing weight kind of caps out around 322. When I get above that it starts to bother my forearm. Racquets like the Prince Classic Longbody, Beast 98, and even the Phantom Pro 100P have given me problems before.

 

[dnguyen]

Does RA of zero exist in this world or in Alien world?

 

[Crocodile]

I think it's pretty hard to say that string or RA alone is more important for arm friendliness because in practise it's more multi factorial then that. To me the best arm friendly frames are:
1. Heavy and at least 7 points headlight with a Strung SW between 320 and 328
2. Under 65RA usually with a few exceptions where there is superior technology added,0
3. Thin beam with box beam construction
4. Racquet technology and build quality
5. Larger grip sized
6. Open strung patterns
7. Strung in gut or multi filament
If you look at it this way I would say the best arm friendly frames right now would be:
1. Pro Kennex Q + Tour 325 and 315
2. Volkl C 10 Pro
3. Prince Phantom 100P/ Pacific X Tour 97
4. Angell K 7 lime/red and V3
5. Yonex V Core 95/ Donnay Allwood
6. Tecnifibre T Fight 315 ltd

 

[Dartagnan64]

Prince Phantom 100 is still arm friendlier than the Pro 100P but in general I agree with you.

 

[Taita87]

Uhm.. I've got te from 1 year and a half.. 5/5.5 player

I was using stiff Polys. I am gradually getting free of soreness from 2 months.
That coincided with me trying multifilament with a racquet that allowed me to play with it:
- Head I.radical leaded to 365 grams finished, and later with a Pro tour 630 that weights 345 with an overgrip dampener and rip control 1.30
- they're grip size 3, and I always used 2
- I need a low launch angle 18/20 to play with multi and the Pro tour with his flexing ability allows me to hit with easy spin nonetheless

When I play like this I have 0 pain. Only remote soreness sometime in the days

I don't know what's working, if it's the ra, the strings, the weight, the swingweight.

 

[axlrose]

It think it also depends on your tennis level.

If your tennis is good enough, you always contact the ball with sweetspot then string is more important.

However, if you have a sensitive wirst/elbow, you mis-hit and contact the ball with the frame, then a RA is very important. The Graphene Speed almost killed my wrist some years ago.

 

[The Big Kahuna]

Strings and the tension they are strung at are to me, the biggest influence on any arm pains. I played a speed pro 18x20 with tight poly and first time my arm ever really hurt. Changed to a softer string at lower tension..and ended up using the racket for a few years...

I can tell you that as long as I have played with natural gut in a full bed or a hybrid I have not had ANY arm problems with any racket I’ve used. The same his cannot be said with polyester string in a full bed - even at lower tensions.

It cost more but that’s why it’s the gold standard. I’ve also found that it lasts and maintains its playability longer so it’s about half as much as it really appears to be in the long run.

How much is your elbow worth?


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[time_fly]

If you have a high enough SW (340 or more), you can use any RA as the weight of the racket will give you more comfort.

I've known many players, women in particular, that say heavier racquets and higher swingweights give them TE. So there is some point where the handling of the racquet itself will give you TE. If you buy a new stick and develop TE you need to evaluate whether it's from the shock / impact in which case softening the setup could help, or whether it's a handling / arm fatigue issue.

 

[FV_Br]

After fighting a lot against TE issues and experimenting strings/frames, the main reason for my problem was the wrong grip size. After 15 years using L3 and 3 breaks for TE recoveries, I found that L4 is better for me and really makes a huge difference.

 

[Ramon]

I get GE with certain equipment. For me, string tension has almost no effect. I can string poly at 30 and it will be fine for the first week, but after that it's just dead poly and more pain. For strings, I just need to stay away from poly, period. If I use natural gut or synthetic gut, I can string it to 70 (I actually tried it on my Prince 98 ESP) at it will still be arm-friendly. The racquet I use now has a stiffness rating of 69 but it's a Prince with O-ports, so it's fine. Prince and Pro Kennex have both been reliable companies for me as far having an arm-friendly racquet.

 

[mike schiffer]

I’d agree poly is the number one issue. I think low RA rackets get a lot of their benefits from being low powered enough to play well with arm friendlier string set ups.

Bad Poly...Bad Poly.....why people count on a string to keep their over powered shots in the court I'll never know....good marketing perhaps...BAITD full bed gut was the lux standard with no control complaints.....you hit it out, your fault…..poly has been a Pandoras box for tennis....ask the walking wounded who've tried to emulate their favorite pro's and can now barely play once a week or pick up a racquet with scar tissue issues....I am one who did not know what poly was when I went to Ricks and they spiked my stix…. grrrrr!

 

[Dartagnan64]

I've known many players, women in particular, that say heavier racquets and higher swingweights give them TE.

I've seen many women that say that but they actually have never really tried heavier rackets. Most of them are trying to give excuses for why they are sticking with their light stiff frames and wearing arm bands and icing their forearms after every play. When you suggest trying a heavier more flexible frame they tell you it makes things worse, but I've never really seen them try.

I do agree that there is too heavy. But very few retail frames these days would qualify as too heavy. Everything seems to be under 12.5 oz strung. The 13-14 oz behemoths of yesteryear are gone bye-bye.

 

[GustoKyrgios]

Noob question related to arm friendliness. I do get pain at my elbow - the golfer's elbow kind of pain. Its never serious and I am a weekend warrior, so it usually is better by the time I am ready to hit it in the next week. I usually play with a modded Youtek Extreme Pro 2.0 (Around 350+ gms weight). Sometimes, I play with a cheap and light £30 Head frame(Around 290 gms weight) and it doesn't hurt my arm as much. Since it isn't tennis elbow, I have always thought that the pain I had was due to the weight of the Extreme Pro and not the frame.

Am I right in thinking so or should I get a softer frame?

 

[Dartagnan64]

Noob question related to arm friendliness. I do get pain at my elbow - the golfer's elbow kind of pain. Its never serious and I am a weekend warrior, so it usually is better by the time I am ready to hit it in the next week. I usually play with a modded Youtek Extreme Pro 2.0 (Around 350+ gms weight). Sometimes, I play with a cheap and light £30 Head frame(Around 290 gms weight) and it doesn't hurt my arm as much. Since it isn't tennis elbow, I have always thought that the pain I had was due to the weight of the Extreme Pro and not the frame.

Am I right in thinking so or should I get a softer frame?

You could take the lead off and see.

It's also quite possible the RA on the cheapo frame is quite low. The cheap frames are often flexible since they don't put as much material into them. They are meant for beginners so they are light and flexible for bunting the ball around.

 

[Garro]

I've seen many women that say that but they actually have never really tried heavier rackets. Most of them are trying to give excuses for why they are sticking with their light stiff frames and wearing arm bands and icing their forearms after every play. When you suggest trying a heavier more flexible frame they tell you it makes things worse, but I've never really seen them try.

I do agree that there is too heavy. But very few retail frames these days would qualify as too heavy. Everything seems to be under 12.5 oz strung. The 13-14 oz behemoths of yesteryear are gone bye-bye.

I am a male player, and racquets that have higher weight or swing weight (Response 97, Prince Classic Longbody) definitely hurt my arm more than lighter stiffer racquets like my Ultra 100 or Warrior 100.

That said, most of my problems have been with a forearm soreness, wrist pain and, more recently, golfer's elbow. I've never actually had any problem with tennis elbow.

 

[aaron_h27]

Noob question related to arm friendliness. I do get pain at my elbow - the golfer's elbow kind of pain. Its never serious and I am a weekend warrior, so it usually is better by the time I am ready to hit it in the next week. I usually play with a modded Youtek Extreme Pro 2.0 (Around 350+ gms weight). Sometimes, I play with a cheap and light £30 Head frame(Around 290 gms weight) and it doesn't hurt my arm as much. Since it isn't tennis elbow, I have always thought that the pain I had was due to the weight of the Extreme Pro and not the frame.

Am I right in thinking so or should I get a softer frame?

Check the balance point on both, the lighter one may be more head light which you prefer. Otherwise it could be the SW

 

[Dartagnan64]

I am a male player, and racquets that have higher weight or swing weight (Response 97, Prince Classic Longbody) definitely hurt my arm more than lighter stiffer racquets like my Ultra 100 or Warrior 100.

That said, most of my problems have been with a forearm soreness, wrist pain and, more recently, golfer's elbow. I've never actually had any problem with tennis elbow.

depending on how you swing, a high swing weight racket can string the wrist and forearm muscles quite easily given the force required to move the racket. If you are someone that recruits the forearm muscles with heavier rackets then it might be an issue. If you recruit bigger muscles with heavier rackets then you might be spared the problem.

It's why they always say swing a racket as heavy as you can comforttably swing fast. For one person that might only be an 11 oz racket if they have very arm based wristy mechanics.

 

[GustoKyrgios]

Check the balance point on both, the lighter one may be more head light which you prefer. Otherwise it could be the SW

Thats true. It is headlight and I love hitting with it thanks to that. I have tried to make the Extreme Pro a bit headlight by adding mass at the grip, but it still isnt very head light.