Nadal Djokovic match-up and surfaces

Does clay hurt Nadal more than it helps when facing Djokovic?

  • Total voters
    33
N

NamRanger

G.O.A.T.
It is funny when thinking about it, but I'm starting to think that clay actually hurts Nadal more in his match-up against Djokovic than it does help. I think mainly it is because Nadal can't really penetrate through the court as well as he does on the HCs, and his backhand becomes an even BIGGER liability here on the clay than it does on HCs.


During the IW and Miami finals, Nadal was at least able to use Djokovic's pace against him at times with his backhand. He was also able to penetrate the court much better with his first serve and forehand, which allowed him to take control of some rallies. It seems like in both Rome and Madrid, I felt like Nadal simply could not take control of the rally even when he wanted to.


So the question is, does clay actually hurt Nadal when facing Novak Djokovic in particular or not? To me, I believe it actually does. Nadal seemingly is unable to really take control of any rallies, and his relative weaknesses (his backhand and 2nd serve) are magnified greatly on clay when facing Djokovic in particular.
 
TennisFan3

TennisFan3

Talk Tennis Guru
I totally agree with your post. I posted this on another thread. Basically with time Nadal will become a better player on non-clay surfaces as his game relies more of offense and he loses a step or 2.

These days Nadal = good old forehand + wheels (which are slower than before). The backhand is AWOL. The defense is nowhere as good as before, and his movement has clearly declined.

On hardcourts, he at least gets some penetration of his forehand. So Novak cannot get everything back. On clay, I saw SOO many times that Nadal had control of the point, but lost the initiative as Djokovic converted defense to offfense. Where as in IW/Miami if Nadal hit a good I/O forehand or DTL forehand - the point was OVER.

As Nadal's defense + speed, decreases, he will depend more on his shotmaking. So he will be assisted by those courts that offer him more penetration for his forehand, and where guys like Djoker, Murray cannot run everything down.

That's why I predicted a LONG time ago that grass would become the best surface for Rafa, and he would win Wimbledon after he stops winning RG.

It seems that time has come...
 
S

Spider

Hall of Fame
Not really and this will become more evident with the ease with which Djokovic will dispatch off Nadal in the later part of this year, on hard courts.

The fact is there is nothing in Nadal's game that can hurt Djokovic.

Edit: To be fair to Nadal, actually for the entire tour, it is going to be extremely difficult to match up with the current Djokovic -- who takes the ball on the rise, hits unbelieveable backhands, excellent forehand angles, and defends just about anything you can produce against him.
 
MichaelNadal

MichaelNadal

Bionic Poster
Spider said:
Not really and this will become more evident with the ease with which Djokovic will dispatch off Nadal in the later part of this year, on hard courts.

The fact is there is nothing in Nadal's game that can hurt Djokovic.

Edit: To be fair to Nadal, actually for the entire tour, it is going to be extremely difficult to match up with the current Djokovic -- who takes the ball on the rise, hits unbelieveable backhands, excellent forehand angles, and defends just about anything you can produce against him.
Click to expand...

23wtgxu.gif
 
Murrayfan31

Murrayfan31

Hall of Fame
Whatever surface they play on, Djokovic will win. Clay makes it more obvious who the better player is though and you can't win a set on luck due to the serve being hot. Nadal lucked his way to 2 set wins against Djokovic on the faster courts.
 
Lsmkenpo

Lsmkenpo

Hall of Fame
I think Nadal concentrates on hitting with better depth on HC than he does on Clay, he seems to put too much energy into creating more topspin on his shots on clay and his ball lands short.

Nadal's topspin hasn't bothered Djokovic nearly to the extent Nadal anticipated it would.

Consistent depth is the way to move Djokovic back off the baseline not more topspin.
 
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MichaelNadal

MichaelNadal

Bionic Poster
Lets not be silly here. Rafa could have won IW or Miami. So it's not like he isn't hurting Novak. His DTL-FH hurts Novak PLENTY. The fact is he's lacking confidence and was practically rolling it in 2 feet inside the line instead of on it. His backhand also hurts him when he hits it with AUTHORITY. There's NOTHING he did in the last 2 matches that hurt him, I AGREE there, because he wasn't hitting his shots with depth and was standing too far back. Basically same thing Lsmkenpo said.
 
OddJack

OddJack

G.O.A.T.
Disagree.

Nadal will tell you he prefers to beat ANYONE on clay.

Djokovic's run is temporary. He has caught Nadal by surprise. Novak's success on beating him on clay was a combination of his readiness, exceptional confidence and fitness VS Nadal's lack of plan or poor game plan.
If Djoko beats Nadal in about 10 days now that's another story all together.
 
Semi-Pro

Semi-Pro

Hall of Fame
MichaelNadal said:
Lets not be silly here. Rafa could have won IW or Miami. So it's not like he isn't hurting Novak. His DTL-FH hurts Novak PLENTY. The fact is he's lacking confidence and was practically rolling it in 2 feet inside the line instead of on it. His backhand also hurts him when he hits it with AUTHORITY. There's NOTHING he did in the last 2 matches that hurt him, I AGREE there, because he wasn't hitting his shots with depth and was standing too far back. Basically same thing Lsmkenpo said.
Click to expand...

Well I thought we were talking about right now, as in currently which is what I stated, and right now I don't think there is anything that can hurt him. But I do agree the things you and Lmskenpo mentioned could perhaps hurt Djokovic
 
N

NamRanger

G.O.A.T.
MichaelNadal said:
Lets not be silly here. Rafa could have won IW or Miami. So it's not like he isn't hurting Novak. His DTL-FH hurts Novak PLENTY. The fact is he's lacking confidence and was practically rolling it in 2 feet inside the line instead of on it. His backhand also hurts him when he hits it with AUTHORITY. There's NOTHING he did in the last 2 matches that hurt him, I AGREE there, because he wasn't hitting his shots with depth and was standing too far back. Basically same thing Lsmkenpo said.
Click to expand...



Nadal can go for bigger shots on HC because the footing is more sure; that is why he has the ability to go deep and hard with both of his shots. On clay, it is a little more difficult because of the lack of grip, and the fact that the ball does not have alot of pace to work with.



Alot of Nadal's depth issue has to do with the fact that he is playing on clay.
 
S

single_handed_champion

Professional
Murrayfan31 said:
Whatever surface they play on, Djokovic will win. Clay makes it more obvious who the better player is though and you can't win a set on luck due to the serve being hot. Nadal lucked his way to 2 set wins against Djokovic on the faster courts.
Click to expand...

attachment.php


Appropriate that all the haters who b1tched that Rafa was so dominant on clay just because of his defense, endurance and physicality, and not shotmaking etc., turn the argument on its head exactly when it suits them.
 
KillSwitch Engage

KillSwitch Engage

Banned
Clay helps Nadal no question. He moves better and it promotes his defensive skills. Even when Djokovic was losing matches during 08 and 09 players didn't beat him by hitting through him except for maybe Federer. Djokovic lost because he was hurting himself with countless UE's and enjoyed hitting double faults. Not because the other guy was able to hurt him.
 
D

DjoKO

New User
I disagree. It is Nole who is giving better (on clay) performance than what Nadal ever given. So stop digging the ground to find another (what could be the reason) thing.

Forget about Nole, Nadal's play in Rome was really good .. I believe that Nadal's chance to be in the RG final is more than Nole's regardless what the draw would seem like.

For the sake of FAIR, I deeply pray to see both of them in RG final.
 
N

NamRanger

G.O.A.T.
DjoKO said:
I disagree. It is Nole who is giving better (on clay) performance than what Nadal ever given. So stop digging the ground to find another (what could be the reason) thing.

Forget about Nole, Nadal's play in Rome was really good .. I believe that Nadal's chance to be in the RG final is more than Nole's regardless what the draw would seem like.

For the sake of FAIR, I deeply pray to see both of them in RG final.
Click to expand...



lol, I'm not a Nadal fan, trust me.


What I think though is that Nadal simply cannot generate enough pace and depth to hurt Djokovic on clay. Against anyone else Nadal is fine; but against Djokovic in particular I think the clay is actually hurting Nadal more than it is helping him.
 
Murrayfan31

Murrayfan31

Hall of Fame
No doubt Djokovic is better than Nadal on clay. Which makes it very funny when people consider Nadal the GOAT on clay.
 
droliver

droliver

Professional
I think people are over-reacting. Djokovic has always been a very good clay court player and is just playing in peak form. These last 4 matches with him and Nadal have been close and decided by just a few points. Witness Nadal's destruction of the field (Nole excepted) over this spring on clay. He's playing great. Djokovic has been just a fraction better and is uber confident with his shots. I don't think we need to be reconsider the GOAT on clay title so fast
 
tennis_pro

tennis_pro

Bionic Poster
droliver said:
I think people are over-reacting. Djokovic has always been a very good clay court player and is just playing in peak form. These last 4 matches with him and Nadal have been close and decided by just a few points. Witness Nadal's destruction of the field (Nole excepted) over this spring on clay. He's playing great. Djokovic has been just a fraction better and is uber confident with his shots. I don't think we need to be reconsider the GOAT on clay title so fast
Click to expand...

The majority of Federer vs Roddick matches have been close and many of them were decided by a couple of points. Federer leads the h2h 20-2.

See what I did there?
 
cknobman

cknobman

Legend
Honestly I really dont give a rats rear about match ups and who's better than who

I'm just glad someone other than Nadal is able to win a clay court title.

Dont get me wrong its not like I'm out to get Nadal but every year for the last 4-5 years Nadal comes in and practically sweeps the season (outside of an "injury" or loss due to fatigue or just plain bad luck).

Someone has finally stepped in and legitimately won some big clay court titles with no "buts" or "ifs".
 
D

Deleted member 3771

Guest
NamRanger said:
lol, I'm not a Nadal fan, trust me.


What I think though is that Nadal simply cannot generate enough pace and depth to hurt Djokovic on clay. Against anyone else Nadal is fine; but against Djokovic in particular I think the clay is actually hurting Nadal more than it is helping him.
Click to expand...

Nadal's problem is he isn't fresh enough for the finals of 3set masters tournaments when he plays on back to back days so he gets to the final tired v Joker so he can't hit though Joker. The solution in the masters series events is to use a better racket.

In slam matches he can hit harder as he is a lot fresher when he gets that extra day of rest between matches so he can still bully Novak around even with his hollow babolat, eg US Open final. It would be even easier with a better racket.
 
Polaris

Polaris

Hall of Fame
TheNatural said:
Nadal's problem is he isn't fresh enough for the finals of 3set masters tournaments when he plays on back to back days so he gets to the final tired v Joker so he can't hit though Joker. The solution in the masters series events is to use a better racket.

In slam matches he can hit harder as he is a lot fresher when he gets that extra day of rest between matches so he can still bully Novak around even with his hollow babolat, eg US Open final. It would be even easier with a better racket.
Click to expand...

ROFLMAO.

Nadal cannot lose unless he
(1) is injured
(2) is tired
(3) is using an unsuitable racquet

That last one is fresh. Thanks for the entertainment.
 
SoBad

SoBad

G.O.A.T.
I'd like to see Nadal back to form before making judgment. Paying at the current level, he is still good enough to beat guys like Lorenzi or Federer in three sets on clay, but a far cry from the high level required to compete at the top of the game. I hope Nadal is back for the French and Wimbledon.
 
SoBad

SoBad

G.O.A.T.
powerangle said:
Too many people here need to get off Djoker's jock straps. Suffering from recency effect...
Click to expand...

I disagree - the forums around here are too often caught up in the long-term perspective and frequently ignore the latest available data. We need to keep up with the times to sustain a productive discussion.
 
MichaelNadal

MichaelNadal

Bionic Poster
namelessone said:
But wait a second, I though the ATP was favoring Ralph with cake draws, slowing down surfaces, allowing poly strings etc. etc.

Has the ATP turned its back on Ralph by making the clay faster :) ?
Click to expand...

I think it needs to be faster, for Rafa's sake. Maybe he won't be so defensive. As Rafa said a few months ago, he isn't sure if he likes slow courts better than fast courts anymore. It's evident to me. The last time he played GREAT tennis was the US Open. Coincidence? Maybe not.
 
Fate Archer

Fate Archer

Hall of Fame
namelessone said:
But wait a second, I though the ATP was favoring Ralph with cake draws, slowing down surfaces, allowing poly strings etc. etc.

Has the ATP turned its back on Ralph by making the clay faster :) ?
Click to expand...

Grand Slams are regimented by the ITF, so the ATP is not free of any conspiracy as of yet. ;-)
 
D

Double_Fault

Banned
Look. It's basically just a clay-court now.

Rafael-Nadal-Wimbledon-01-2010-07-04.jpg


Here is a preview of Wimbledon 2011. Federer visits the new court to practice against an old friend.

venue1512.jpg
 
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