Muller is one of the players who knew how to exploit Nadal's return position with his serve, thanks to the incredible placement, so the stats you listed has little to do with the original comment I replied to.Nadal vs Muller 4:2 h2h including 2 bagels. Muller's 1st victory was in 2005 when Rafa was learning to play on grass.
Djokovic vs Nadal stats in the h2h:
| 34.8% | 1st Srv. Return Won % | 31.9% |
|---|---|---|
| 48.5% | 2nd Srv. Return Won % | 47.5% |
| 151 | Return Rating | 146 |
| 39.2% | Return Points Won % | 37.2% |
|---|---|---|
| 39.4% | Rtn. In-play Pts. Won % | 38.5% |
| 6.54 | Points per Return Game | 6.24 |
| 2.56 | Pts. Won per Rtn. Game | 2.32 |
| 41.3% | Break Points Won % | 43.5% |
| 0.63 | BPs per Return Game | 0.53 |
| 3.00 | BPs per Set | 2.61 |
| 7.9 | BPs per Match | 6.9 |
| 26.1% | Return Games Won % | 23.1% |
|---|---|---|
| 1.24 | Rtn. Gms. Won per Set | 1.13 |
| 3.3 | Rtn. Gms. Won per Match | 3.0 |
If Fed is #11, that's still quite good - and he still has one of the most unbreakable serves. on tour.
Even if Djokovic wins more on hard and grass, the gap between them on those two surfaces isn't as significant as the gap on clay, hence it's perfectly reasonable to say overall, Nadal is still the better returner (at least that is what the stats seem to infer). Be careful how you are using the word 'skewed' though, because the total points played in the past 12 months is actually skewed towards hard courts since that's where the majority of points are played. So even with this hard court skew, Nadal still leads in this stat.
And until about 2009 Rod Laver was universally recognized as the greatest tennis player of all-time, despite never winning/playing slams on hardcourt
Stats I posted are career overall stats, from all seasons. Nadal leads Novak overall by 33% to 32% in return games won career wise, when all surfaces are put together.
You should dig deeper then and take a look at return points won %, and return games won % against higher ranked opponents. The thing you have to keep in mind though is that rank is dependent on points, and points are dependent upon what tournaments are on offer, and most of those tournaments are on hard courts. That means ranking isn't a good indicator of level when it comes to clay.
3% is a lot. Since 2011 Djokovic has never been under 32% for returns games won. The years it was under that were 2007-2010. Even back then it was like 29%,30% or something. I haven't checked in a while. But that 1 or 2 percent made a hell of a lot of difference. So Djokovic on HC and grass is miles above Nadal when it comes to returning while Nadal is in a universe on clay.
Again, that has nothing to do with the fact that Muller exploits Nadal's return with his type of serve, which was, again, the point of the original post. Or you are one of those "experts" who prefer to read the Wikipedia articles instead of watching tennis matches?
Exactly. Nadal's return as a shot is nothing compared to Novak's. He is a great returner because of what he does after returning
If Rafa can bagel him twice that means he couldn't cope with Rafa's serve. Simple.
Djokovic is 18th best on his worst surface. Nadal is 69th best on his worst surface.
Splitting hairs.
Yes but two surfaces are more than one. Plus Nadal is almost impossible to hit through on a clay court which is why he has such high stats. I bet you anything he is harder to break than Fed on a clay court. Does that make him a better server than Fed? It has little to do with his serve or return. While it is true that Nadal utilizes serve in order for the first shot to be on his FH
And it has nothing to do with what I said. You are either blind or never watched any of their matches if you couldn't notice that Nadal has troubles with Muller's serve. Simple.
This is what I am trying to tell people.
These rankings actually aren't true. For some reason the ATP site is slow for me today. I just checked again. Nadal is the best server on clay for the past 52 weeks which proves my point even further.
Yeah I'm not sure what happened. The rankings did seem strange to me ahahaha
I was just being ironic about what the clay return/serve win percentages mean.
I just don't have time to make such research.
So you are saying he should get no credit on clay because he is exceptional on it? Is that admitting that neither Djoker nor Fedr is exceptional on their best surface?
I don’t think so. In tennis, it’s never over until the fat lady sings. Nalbandian was a set and 2 breaks up against Rafa at the 2009 IW and Rafa went on to take the 3rd set 60 and eventually win the title.
What a revelation that Laver never won a Slam on hard court when none existed in his era.And until about 2009 Rod Laver was universally recognized as the greatest tennis player of all-time, despite never winning/playing slams on hardcourt
And even a hardcourt legend like Andre Agassi didn't even play the Australian Open until 1995!
Anyway, if anyone cares about hardcourt.....Rafa has won more US Opens than Djokovic.
30-0 against Berrettini
