New Southern Rule for 2024

T

TennisOTM

Professional
More areas should start running X.5 mixed leagues. Here they are nearly as popular as the 18+ X.0 mixed leagues. Last year the 18+ X.0 leagues (6.0 up to 10.0) had 28 teams and 442 players, and the X.5 leagues (5.5 up to 9.5) had 25 teams and 407 players. Few people really care that it does not advance to Nationals (although we do have Sectionals in Intermountain).

There are many benefits to X.5 mixed. You naturally avoid the extreme 1.0-difference partners without having to ban them by rule. It's easy to build a roster with two levels of both genders to choose from. You can play at two different levels if you're a mixed junky. The 9.5 league is a good league for 5.0 players and easier to fill than 10.0. Why isn't this happening elsewhere??
 
C

Creighton

Professional
TennisOTM said:
More areas should start running X.5 mixed leagues. Here they are nearly as popular as the 18+ X.0 mixed leagues. Last year the 18+ X.0 leagues (6.0 up to 10.0) had 28 teams and 442 players, and the X.5 leagues (5.5 up to 9.5) had 25 teams and 407 players. Few people really care that it does not advance to Nationals (although we do have Sectionals in Intermountain).

There are many benefits to X.5 mixed. You naturally avoid the extreme 1.0-difference partners without having to ban them by rule. It's easy to build a roster with two levels of both genders to choose from. You can play at two different levels if you're a mixed junky. The 9.5 league is a good league for 5.0 players and easier to fill than 10.0. Why isn't this happening elsewhere??
Click to expand...

This is probably the better solution. I see there was a lot of hate on Facebook the past few days.
 
K

kevrol

Hall of Fame
Just got the following from USTA NC:

Players, Captains, Friends:
This is an important announcement regarding changes surrounding Mixed Doubles and Tri-Level USTA Southern and North Carolina leagues for the 2024 Championship year.

Mixed Doubles
Starting in 2024, all Mixed Doubles Leagues in North Carolina will move to Straight Level (2.5, 3.0, 3.5, 4.0, 4.5, 5.0). Per USTA Southern regulations, Mixed Doubles 18 & Over and 40 & Over Leagues will move to straight-levels for the 2024 league championship year. USTA North Carolina follow suit and straight levels will be used for Mixed Doubles 55 & Over and 65 & Over leagues. Local leagues, local playoffs, and Mixed State Championships will consist of straight-levels. Players can still play “up” .5 a level. For example, a 3.0 can play in a 3.5 Mixed Doubles League. A 2.5 cannot play in a 3.5 Mixed Doubles League. Opportunities for advancement are still in place.

Reasons for the change:
In the USTA Southern Section, USTA Southern Mixed Doubles has declined by 12% over the past 10 years. Going to straight level divisions will allow players to be closer in skill level during the match resulting in more competitive matches. Fair-based play is also being addressed with the change. The largest number of NTRP Grievances, self-rate complaints and self-rate abuse in USTA Southern comes from the Mixed Doubles League program with the current combined NTRP levels. Starting in 2024, Self (“S”), Appealed (“A”) and Mixed-Exclusive (“M”) rated players are subject to dynamic disqualification during USTA Southern Mixed Doubles (18 & Over and 40 & Over) league play.

Tri-Level:
Starting in 2024, Tri-Level matches will affect NTRP Computer ratings and Tri-Level will become a USTA Southern program. For players and captains, this means that match results from Tri-Level matches will go toward NTRP Computer ratings. This will give players more opportunity to play and receive a computer rating. Furthermore, the program will now be regulated by USTA Southern. Advancement past states will no longer be a “Sectional Invitational”, it will be deemed a “Southern League Championship”. Rules and regulations surrounding Tri-Level will now be governed at the USTA Southern level. This is great news for players and captains who play Tri-Level as it means the program is growing!

Thank you for your continued support of USTA Leagues and programming. I look forward to seeing you on the courts!
Allison Steinmetz
Director of Adult Programs
USTA North Carolina
 
!<-_->!

!<-_->!

Hall of Fame
If they're only doing this mixed rule change for a section, how do those sections progress to nationals or do they not have the opportunity to progress?
 
schmke

schmke

Legend
!<-_->! said:
If they're only doing this mixed rule change for a section, how do those sections progress to nationals or do they not have the opportunity to progress?
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And for 2024, they'll progress to Nationals at 2xLevel level, e.g. a Southern 4.0 Mixed team will play at 8.0 Mixed Nationals. They will just have to potentially face 4.5/3.5 pairs there while only fielding 4.0/4.0 (or 4.0/3.5) pairs.
 
J

JLyon

Hall of Fame
STA and their districts are not listening to the masses, easily 5 to 1 against this new rule and USTA wonders why they are losing members
 
G

Galvez24

New User
JLyon said:
STA and their districts are not listening to the masses, easily 5 to 1 against this new rule and USTA wonders why they are losing members
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Most people I have talked to about this are happy with the decision. I’m neutral. On the Southern Facebook page there are so many of the notorious sandbaggers from my city complaining
 
Moveforwardalways

Moveforwardalways

Hall of Fame
It will cause teams to break up and reform. It will also cause some 4.5 guys who liked playing 8.0 as top dawg to have to start playing 9.0 (essentially). It also makes some 3.5 female sandbaggers get stuck playing 7.0 mixed now, which they won’t like.
 
A

ATX Tennis

Rookie
Moveforwardalways said:
It will cause teams to break up and reform. It will also cause some 4.5 guys who liked playing 8.0 as top dawg to have to start playing 9.0 (essentially). It also makes some 3.5 female sandbaggers get stuck playing 7.0 mixed now, which they won’t like.
Click to expand...
I think it kills many club teams, as there aren’t enough players at some levels to make a team. My club could probably only do a 3.5 team. Not enough 4.0 women and 3.0 guys to make teams at those levels.
 
T

TennisHokie

New User
Speaking from a Rural area captain and the CTA president - Last year our area had both winners of 8.0 and 9.0 mixed at State with our 8.0 team Finalists from a 3rd set tiebreaker going to Nationals (different lineup would have resulted in a victory). This rule will now actually cause us to not have leagues in either 8.0 or 9.0 --

We barely were able to put together a 9.0 because what most people don't talk about is that you have to have at least another team to advanced to a state competition, unlike Tri or Combo.

The rule changing will basically kill 9.0 all together and 8.0 for our area as we won't be able to put together at least 2 teams.

So instead of a 3.5 man or 4.0 man being able to play across 3 leagues, he won't be able to play in any.

If they truly want to increase participation maybe review the following:
  1. It seems fair to point out that some male or female don't feel comfortable playing against certain competition but from my years in our area and across my state that some people's ratings are inflated from years of playing the same people over and over again and this has caused them to play in leagues that are too advanced for them in general. This seems more of a root cause of the problem that should be addressed.
  2. IF they still move forward with straight line mixed, then they need to address the requirement to advanced beyond local you need to have at least two teams to compete. This will at least help keep some participation going.
  3. This should be a national rule before a sectional rule, make no mistake Southern will be at a disadvantage when it comes to Nationals - Last year Southern was a finalist at 8.0 and Southern finished tied for 3rd but losing tiebreakers to advance to semi finals.
 
R

rod99

Professional
a couple of points:

- this is yet another way that the usta is reducing opportunities for 5.0 players, particularly those who are 40+. they took away the 40+ leagues several years ago (which I disagreed with strongly) and now 5.0s aren't allowed to play 9.0 mixed. expect an increase in tanking at the 5.0 level to get bumped down. a 40+ 5.0 player is now stuck having to play recent college graduates which, for the most part, isn't fun.

- there is no way that participation won't decline due to this rule. and i expect it to decline in a significant way.

- this kills rural/smaller leagues which will not be able to put together teams without a one point differential in lines.

- i'm assuming one of the reasons that this rule was implemented is b/c you would see self/appeal rated players that play mixed doubles as the higher level player in a line. and b/c many of these self-ratings are shady then you don't get a competitive match (i.e. in a 8.0 match you might see a 4.5 self-rated male playing with a 3.5 female, but the male actually plays at a 5.0 level). in addition, you can't get dynamically DQ'd from mixed. my solution is that self-rated players shouldn't be allowed to play in a mixed doubles league without a C rating.

- as an FYI, my experience in playing 9.0 mixed at state tournaments is that two strong 4.5 players generally have more success than a 5.0/4.0 combo. maybe it's different at the 8.0/7.0 level.

- they really do need to change the rule that if only one mixed team signs up in a league then they can't advance to the state tournament. it's not the signed up team's fault that another team doesn't sign up.
 
Moveforwardalways

Moveforwardalways

Hall of Fame
TennisHokie said:
Speaking from a Rural area captain and the CTA president - Last year our area had both winners of 8.0 and 9.0 mixed at State with our 8.0 team Finalists from a 3rd set tiebreaker going to Nationals (different lineup would have resulted in a victory). This rule will now actually cause us to not have leagues in either 8.0 or 9.0 --

We barely were able to put together a 9.0 because what most people don't talk about is that you have to have at least another team to advanced to a state competition, unlike Tri or Combo.

The rule changing will basically kill 9.0 all together and 8.0 for our area as we won't be able to put together at least 2 teams.

So instead of a 3.5 man or 4.0 man being able to play across 3 leagues, he won't be able to play in any.

If they truly want to increase participation maybe review the following:
  1. It seems fair to point out that some male or female don't feel comfortable playing against certain competition but from my years in our area and across my state that some people's ratings are inflated from years of playing the same people over and over again and this has caused them to play in leagues that are too advanced for them in general. This seems more of a root cause of the problem that should be addressed.
  2. IF they still move forward with straight line mixed, then they need to address the requirement to advanced beyond local you need to have at least two teams to compete. This will at least help keep some participation going.
  3. This should be a national rule before a sectional rule, make no mistake Southern will be at a disadvantage when it comes to Nationals - Last year Southern was a finalist at 8.0 and Southern finished tied for 3rd but losing tiebreakers to advance to semi finals.
Click to expand...
Why would a 3.5 or 4.0 male not be able to play in any leagues again?
 
A

ATX Tennis

Rookie
If the difference in skill levels is the problem, why don’t the complaining players play down a level? Instead of a 3.5 women playing 8.0, why doesn’t she play 7.0? I’m not sure why the entire system needs to be changed for a problem that already has a solution?
 
C

Creighton

Professional
ATX Tennis said:
If the difference in skill levels is the problem, why don’t the complaining players play down a level? Instead of a 3.5 women playing 8.0, why doesn’t she play 7.0? I’m not sure why the entire system needs to be changed for a problem that already has a solution?
Click to expand...

The problem is then they’re at a bigger disadvantage when their 4.0 male opponent is a sandbagging 4.5 and now they’re trying to deal with it with a 3.5 male partner.
 
T

ThinkPad

Rookie
ATX Tennis said:
I’ve found that most of the women enjoy playing “up” in mixed. It might not make for the best matches, but I haven’t heard a lot of complaints about that. Maybe this will get more higher end guys that didn’t enjoy the disparity, but at least in my area, I just don’t see this growing the number of teams. This wasn’t even in my top 5 of USTA league complaints. It’s certainly way behind the 4 line 40+ format, which to USTA’s credit is being fixed.
Click to expand...
I know five 3.5 women who played on an MX 8.0 team this year. They all hated it and won't do it again. The men were simply too advanced for them.
 
T

ThinkPad

Rookie
ATX Tennis said:
I’m just not seeing this group of mixed wannabes that would play but for the format. One thing I can see is this will create fewer, but stronger, super teams lead by captains who have connections to many of an area’s stronger players. My club’s mixed population wouldn’t even support 3.0 or 4.0. It could probably support a 3.5 team if they find a captain.
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In our district, the LC said their primary source of information is player surveys. I've also completed such surveys multiple times per year. I suspect Sections and Districts throughout the country are also responding, not to hearsay, but to actual data provided by player surveys.
 
A

ATX Tennis

Rookie
ThinkPad said:
In our district, the LC said their primary source of information is player surveys. I've also completed such surveys multiple times per year. I suspect Sections and Districts throughout the country are also responding, not to hearsay, but to actual data provided by player surveys.
Click to expand...
Makes sense but if you read the USTA Southern Facebook page, the players claim they were not consulted. I’m not in Southern so don’t know if this is true or not.
 
V

Vox Rationis

Professional
ThinkPad said:
In our district, the LC said their primary source of information is player surveys. I've also completed such surveys multiple times per year. I suspect Sections and Districts throughout the country are also responding, not to hearsay, but to actual data provided by player surveys.
Click to expand...
I wonder the likelihood of people answering the surveys when they like the status quo vs when they dislike how things are going.
 
FuzzyYellowBalls

FuzzyYellowBalls

Legend
There are hundreds of negative comments on southern facebook pages where normally the posts get a few comments each.

The Southern section is so spread out I bet someone in a more sandbaggy and highly dense area made the rule for the whole section. There has to be some center of activity where these rules are meant to stop whatever is going on, but it isn't happening all over southern. Time will tell, but I bet more areas will be negatively impacted even if some kind of sandbagging activity in a big city is curtailed.
I'm playing in 3 different southern states so I know there isn't a ton of sandbagging in the smaller populated states (Jackson MS is kind of notorious, but not that bad), I'm mildly guessing Atlanta has something going on and probably they have the most ambitious people volunteering to manage southern and probably the most vocal people who complained about making rule changes.
 
J

JordanWinning

Rookie
Purestriker said:
I get that. But If you can’t win, or be competitive then play outside USTA.
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USTA is for recreational tennis. If winning is your primary metric for success in tennis, you’re either a loser or competing for a spot at Wimbledon. Great, you’re the best 4.0 in Georgia! Play 4.5 and get your butt kicked or play 5.0 and get your butt kicked, or play the number one at UGA and get your butt kicked. Winning is only a good success metric for people paying their rent with the sport. Otherwise, take a chill pill and remember that it’s RECREATIONAL sports
 
Purestriker

Purestriker

Legend
JordanWinning said:
USTA is for recreational tennis. If winning is your primary metric for success in tennis, you’re either a loser or competing for a spot at Wimbledon. Great, you’re the best 4.0 in Georgia! Play 4.5 and get your butt kicked or play 5.0 and get your butt kicked, or play the number one at UGA and get your butt kicked. Winning is only a good success metric for people paying their rent with the sport. Otherwise, take a chill pill and remember that it’s RECREATIONAL sports
Click to expand...
Nah I’m good.
 
C

Creighton

Professional
I went and looked at the Facebook posts and this one cracked me up

I’m out with this new rule. I’ve played on many 7.0 & 8.0 teams that have made it to states and sectionals. Usually I captain at least 3 or 4 mixed teams. This past year I got bumped to 3.0. This year I will be playing with my 4.0 guys. Looks like it will be for the last time. There is no way in heck that I’m playing 3.0 mixed. Why would a 3.5 team want a 3.0 lady on their team? You are loosing someone who captains 3 7.0 teams and currently is registered to play on 5!!!!!
Click to expand...

This is the problem, the same people going to state and sectionals over and over.
 
Moveforwardalways

Moveforwardalways

Hall of Fame
This new format makes teams reshuffle the deck. But it really should not have any impact on how many teams you are eligible for. If you were on 4 mixed teams before, you are still eligible to play on 4 teams. If a 3.0 woman somewhere out there feels like she is too good to play 3.0 mixed then lol at that.
 
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schmke

schmke

Legend
Moveforwardalways said:
This new format makes teams reshuffle the deck. But it really should not have any impact on how many teams you are eligible for. If you were on 4 mixed teams before, you are still eligible to play on 4 teams. If a 3.0 woman somewhere out there feels like she is too good to play 3.0 mixed then lol at that.
Click to expand...
How so?

With combined levels, a 3.5 is eligible to play 6.0 with a 2.5, 7.0 with a 3.5, and 8.0 with a 4.5, three levels/teams, and on each one they are "at level".

With straight levels, the 3.5 is only eligible to play 3.5 or 4.0, two levels/teams, and is only "at level" for one of them, they'd be putting their team at a disadvantage on the 4.0 team having to play with a 4.0 as a "7.5" pair against other "8.0" pairs.
 
Moveforwardalways

Moveforwardalways

Hall of Fame
schmke said:
How so?

With combined levels, a 3.5 is eligible to play 6.0 with a 2.5, 7.0 with a 3.5, and 8.0 with a 4.5, three levels/teams, and on each one they are "at level".

With straight levels, the 3.5 is only eligible to play 3.5 or 4.0, two levels/teams, and is only "at level" for one of them, they'd be putting their team at a disadvantage on the 4.0 team having to play with a 4.0 as a "7.5" pair against other "8.0" pairs.
Click to expand...
You are correct. I was thinking about it wrong.
 
FuzzyYellowBalls

FuzzyYellowBalls

Legend
Creighton said:
I went and looked at the Facebook posts and this one cracked me up



This is the problem, the same people going to state and sectionals over and over.
Click to expand...
Yeah the southern section is freaking strange, really I didn't even know that 2.5 was a level that existed until I started messing around in this section. The amount of adults who are able bodied that cling to 3.0 is crazy. If you can run and hit a tennis ball you should play 3.5 I think, 3.0 is for first year beginners or the very old. It's true though, this rule will destroy these teams, kind of funny.
 
Purestriker

Purestriker

Legend
FuzzyYellowBalls said:
Yeah the southern section is freaking strange, really I didn't even know that 2.5 was a level that existed until I started messing around in this section. The amount of adults who are able bodied that cling to 3.0 is crazy. If you can run and hit a tennis ball you should play 3.5 I think, 3.0 is for first year beginners or the very old. It's true though, this rule will destroy these teams, kind of funny.
Click to expand...
It forces them to level up to their actual level. Which I think is the desired results. I cannot tell you how many people I know that never want to get "bumped" and use state championships to ensure it doesn't happen.
 
D

denoted

Semi-Pro
FuzzyYellowBalls said:
Yeah the southern section is freaking strange, really I didn't even know that 2.5 was a level that existed until I started messing around in this section. The amount of adults who are able bodied that cling to 3.0 is crazy. If you can run and hit a tennis ball you should play 3.5 I think, 3.0 is for first year beginners or the very old. It's true though, this rule will destroy these teams, kind of funny.
Click to expand...

I played 4.5 state not too long ago. 3.5 and 2.5 were held at the same time, at different facilities across the city. I often could not tell whether an adjacent court was 2.5 or 3.5. I had thought that 2.5 was for true beginners, but it seems like there were multiple teams across the state who had persuaded what looked like former high school players to self-rate at that level.
 
C

Creighton

Professional
schmke said:
How so?

With combined levels, a 3.5 is eligible to play 6.0 with a 2.5, 7.0 with a 3.5, and 8.0 with a 4.5, three levels/teams, and on each one they are "at level".

With straight levels, the 3.5 is only eligible to play 3.5 or 4.0, two levels/teams, and is only "at level" for one of them, they'd be putting their team at a disadvantage on the 4.0 team having to play with a 4.0 as a "7.5" pair against other "8.0" pairs.
Click to expand...

Haven't you spoken to the fact that ratings are harder to get accurate with more overlap? I know you've spoken about players playing up being an issue in the past.

So how would someone playing 3 different levels be good for classifying people into levels? So while it may limit opportunities to 4 teams from 6, isn't that a net positive for the whole community?
 
Purestriker

Purestriker

Legend
denoted said:
I played 4.5 state not too long ago. 3.5 and 2.5 were held at the same time, at different facilities across the city. I often could not tell whether an adjacent court was 2.5 or 3.5. I had thought that 2.5 was for true beginners, but it seems like there were multiple teams across the state who had persuaded what looked like former high school players to self-rate at that level.
Click to expand...
They have 2.0 in some Southern states. Usually everyone is a level up, there are teams that are at level and they always go winless.
 
G

Galvez24

New User
denoted said:
I played 4.5 state not too long ago. 3.5 and 2.5 were held at the same time, at different facilities across the city. I often could not tell whether an adjacent court was 2.5 or 3.5. I had thought that 2.5 was for true beginners, but it seems like there were multiple teams across the state who had persuaded what looked like former high school players to self-rate at that level.
Click to expand...
The 2.5 ladies teams here are always so stacked with players WAY out of level and it’s always by the same tennis pro. There are some that could legitimately play 3.5+. I think it really hurts the true 2.5s that are working hard to improve.
 
schmke

schmke

Legend
Creighton said:
A lawyer in SC is really fired up about this

USTA_Mixed-_Arguments_Against_2023_Implemenation_of_Proposed_Rule_Change.pdf

drive.google.com drive.google.com
Click to expand...
So, this seems to actually be about the local rule instituted mid-season requiring players advancing to playoffs on two teams at different levels to pick/declare which team they will play on and not be allowed to play on both. It isn't about Mixed going to straight-levels for the 2024 championship year.

For example, a 3.5 player on both 7.0 and 8.0 Mixed teams that go to States can only play on one of the teams at the event, even if the schedules allow for playing matches for both.

Perhaps I don't fully appreciate the reasons for the rule change, but I would tend to agree with the author of the document that implementing such a rule isn't necessary, and doing so mid-season isn't fair to teams that set up their rosters with an understanding of the prior rule that would allow it.
 
Purestriker

Purestriker

Legend
Just got this from our league cordinator and they included a link to an FAQ on why it is changing.

ALL:

USTA Mixed Doubles League is changing in 2024. This information has been shared on social media, and we thank those that have shared their positive or negative feedback and passion for the USTA Mixed Doubles League. Please send any feedback/concerns to XXXX and we will compile and forward on to the Southern League leadership. USTA Southern, its states, and its local league organizations will continue to review feedback on league changes through player surveys and analytics as appropriate. See the Q&A link below.


 
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