Pianists/musicians: Help needed

[Comb Over Champion]

Music has been the unatainable love of my life. I had piano lessons as a kid for a number of years, but quit because I wasn't getting anywhere. I could play some pieces reasonably well if I was relaxed, but more often than not it was a painful experience. My hands would get stiff, so I would either play too loud or too soft. Sustain pedal action was a mess. But...

The most challenging thing for me was hand independence. This is the main subject of my post. Hand independence at the piano (specifically parts with different metrics/rhythms) was incredibly hard. It's as if my brain can't even think the two different parts simultaneously. To give you an example: Listen to this piece by Nick Drake (River Man). It's not a piano piece, but it is a very clear example of what I mean. Notice the rhythmic pattern in the chord part and then notice the main melodic line (voice). It's pure beauty, but it's something I don't think I'd be able to ever play.

I can't overstate how much this frustrates me. I am very good at thinking songs in my head. I am very good at coming up with melodies, harmonies, etc. But I can't execute. I don't know if it's something intrinsically wrong with my brain, or if it is something that could be learned. This problem threw me into a deep depression a few times, and recently I've been thinking of pursuing music again, and I'm going down that same path. I just want to know if it's a hopeless pursuit and I'd better forget about music and move in a different direction. Ironically, I'm exceptionally good at writing, but it never attracted me so much as the pure joy of music for some reason (Fate's cruel design, I think).

 

[Comb Over Champion]

To make things clearer: If I try to play that rhythmic part from River Man with my hand by tapping on a table with two fingers and sing it at the same time, I can't. So it's not literally hand independence, it's something even more basic than that.

 

[ojo rojo]

It's in 5/4. Count to 5 starting on the first beat and repeat meter. 1,2,3,4,5,1,2,3,4,5 and so forth.

It's a beautiful song - glad it inspires you

 

[stringertom]

To make things clearer: If I try to play that rhythmic part from River Man with my hand by tapping on a table with two fingers and sing it at the same time, I can't. So it's not literally hand independence, it's something even more basic than that.

Drop by for a Spray and DollyJoeliet will fix you up purrfectly.

 

[Comb Over Champion]

It's in 5/4. Count to 5 starting on the first beat and repeat meter. 1,2,3,4,5,1,2,3,4,5 and so forth.

It's a beautiful song - glad it inspires you

I can do the parts independently. My brain doesn't allow me to do both parts simultaneously. That is the main problem. I'm good at independent rhythms, and my timing is excellent (I think) with individual parts. It's when you add another part that everything breaks down for me. The song is plain beauty, yes. Nick Drake is one of my favorite artists ever.

 

[ojo rojo]

The fact that it's in an odd time signature might be whats throwing you. Do you find you have independence issues with more standard timings?

 

[Comb Over Champion]

The fact that it's in an odd time signature might be whats throwing you. Do you find you have independence issues with more standard timings?

Yes, I've always had problems. I can do 2/4 with the left hand while doing a triplet with the right hand. (Sorry if the terminology is incorrect, hopefully you know what I mean. Basically, playing 2 notes with the left hand while playing 3 with the right.) But even that doesn't seem natural to my brain, if that makes sense.

And I don't have a problem with hand independence in other settings, I think. As I said, it's not as much about hand independence strictly, as I can't even sing the part with the different time signature.

I would honestly have my right foot amputated if this gave me the ability to do what I want with music. That's how much this frustrates me. And I'm not talking figuratively, I really do mean it.

 

[ojo rojo]

River man is even more unusual - in that there's not really a distinguishable backbeat though it does have a sort of pulse.
As it's often just a voice and guitar, a lot of Nick's songs flirt around the meter and are positively rubato at times.

You might find it of use attempting to learn another familiar tune also in 5/4.

This one however has a more obvious beat and very repetitive pattern of left hand playing bass pattern and right hand playing chord vamp.
Learn the pattern at half the speed; left hand first, then right, then together and drill repeatedly until you actually start going into a trance. Seriously. Repetition is key.

 

[ojo rojo]

BTW.. album version is far easier on the ears

This one has some sound fx that aren't on the original
Copyright perhaps.. The string arrangement is seriously GOAT contender

 

[jhick]

Piano player here and I find odd time signatures fascinating. Learned some Brubeck growing up. Hand independence is a little challenging when you try playing polyrhythms, as I learned when trying to tackle Chopin's Fantasie Impromptu, which I believe uses 4/4 in the right hand on top of 6/8 in the left hand. Basically I had to get the left hand down where I just kind of memorized it and then I could focus on the right hand. Adding the foot to the mix is where I struggle, which is probably why I never mastered the drum set or organ.

Gavin Harrison (former drummer of Porcupine Tree and King Crimson) is a master of this and has a couple of DVDs out on the concept. I think they're titled rhythmic illusions or something like that.

 

[Comb Over Champion]

River man is even more unusual - in that there's not really a distinguishable backbeat though it does have a sort of pulse.
As it's often just a voice and guitar, a lot of Nick's songs flirt around the meter and are positively rubato at times.

You might find it of use attempting to learn another familiar tune also in 5/4.

This one however has a more obvious beat and very repetitive pattern of left hand playing bass pattern and right hand playing chord vamp.
Learn the pattern at half the speed; left hand first, then right, then together and drill repeatedly until you actually start going into a trance. Seriously. Repetition is key.

Thank you for this, this is very useful. This one actually I can tap the bass line with my fingers, and sing it (for the most part). I think it is because the parts are mostly in synchrony. Does it make sense?

However, I just tried tapping both parts (one with the left hand and the other one with the right), and then I run into trouble. So it seems part of it is hand independence, and the other part (more basic, when I can't even sing one part while tapping the other) that takes place with even more complex rhythms, like in River Man.

 

[Comb Over Champion]

BTW.. album version is far easier on the ears

This one has some sound fx that aren't on the original
Copyright perhaps.. The string arrangement is seriously GOAT contender

Yes, very beautiful. I do like the raw version very much, though. I think the string arrangements were done by a guy that did music for Hammer Films (they did old horror movies).

 

[Comb Over Champion]

Piano player here and I find odd time signatures fascinating. Learned some Brubeck growing up. Hand independence is a little challenging when you try playing polyrhythms, as I learned when trying to tackle Chopin's Fantasie Impromptu, which I believe uses 4/4 in the right hand on top of 6/8 in the left hand. Basically I had to get the left hand down where I just kind of memorized it and then I could focus on the right hand. Adding the foot to the mix is where I struggle, which is probably why I never mastered the drum set or organ.

Gavin Harrison (former drummer of Porcupine Tree and King Crimson) is a master of this and has a couple of DVDs out on the concept. I think they're titled rhythmic illusions or something like that.

Funny that you mentioned Chopin, as I used to be relatively adept at playing part of the op 9 no 1 Nocturne, except when the right hand is playing a bunch of notes that don't fit on the overall time signature. This happens very early on.

I guess my main question is if this can be improved, because it does feel like a handicap at the moment. Is it normal to struggle this much with this sort of thing? I can imagine some people are more naturally able to do this sort of thing, while others struggle more. But can enough practice change your brain and make it able to handle this stuff?

 

[-NN-]

Funny that you mentioned Chopin, as I used to be relatively adept at playing part of the op 9 no 1 Nocturne, except when the right hand is playing a bunch of notes that don't fit on the overall time signature. This happens very early on.

I guess my main question is if this can be improved, because it does feel like a handicap at the moment. Is it normal to struggle this much with this sort of thing? I can imagine some people are more naturally able to do this sort of thing, while others struggle more. But can enough practice change your brain and make it able to handle this stuff?

Can you post an example of a piano piece you struggled mightily with rhythmically?

 

[Topspin Shot]

To make things clearer: If I try to play that rhythmic part from River Man with my hand by tapping on a table with two fingers and sing it at the same time, I can't. So it's not literally hand independence, it's something even more basic than that.

Can you stomp stomp clap and sing We Will Rock You?

 

[Comb Over Champion]

Can you post an example of a piano piece you struggled mightily with rhythmically?

I think the third and fourth bar of the Chopin nocturne above are a good example. Basically, my brain "spaces out" and becomes fixated either on the left hand or the right hand. I am sorry, but I can't think of a better example that I played, as I only studied 3 years and I don't think I got to play more challenging stuff where you see this thing happening. The Nick Drake song in the OP is just one of the best examples where this is seen very clearly.

To see it played in the piano, look at this cover. Even I think that the guy playing the piano here is not doing the timing perfecly, as it almost looks like he is quantizing the right hand to fall more in synchrony with the left hand in this version:

 

[Comb Over Champion]

Can you stomp stomp clap and sing We Will Rock You?

I just tried this, and yes, I can actually do this, but that's because the parts are in synchrony for the most part. This is the best way I can describe it. Does that make sense? I mean, compare We Will Rock You to the Nick Drake's River Man. It's just like night and day in terms of rhythmic difficulty in my opinion.

 

[-NN-]

I think the third and fourth bar of the Chopin nocturne above are a good example. Basically, my brain "spaces out" and becomes fixated either on the left hand or the right hand. I am sorry, but I can't think of a better example that I played, as I only studied 3 years and I don't think I got to play more challenging stuff where you see this thing happening. The Nick Drake song in the OP is just one of the best examples where this is seen very clearly.

To see it played in the piano, look at this cover. Even I think that the guy playing the piano here is not doing the timing perfecly, as it almost looks like he is quantizing the right hand to fall more in synchrony with the left hand in this version:

Is there really a perfect timing though. He feels the 5/4 essence and does what he does with it. You can play around within the confines of the time signature and give it a bit of swing or some extra decorations and freedoms and whatnot - his right hand playing perhaps leaves something to be desired creatively. Could you do what he does at the piano? Meaning, can you sustain that steady 5/4 platform in the left hand while improvising a bit and riffing away with the right hand, obeying some themes if you wish... ?

To me, a lot of music isn't really there to be played precisely or by the book. There's definitely plenty of room for your own spin with River Man anyway. Doesn't apply to all music, of course. I could never be bothered to fully learn most guitar solos and just made them up.

***

Can you tap the left hand on a table and tap different rhythms in that 5:4 time signature with your right hand? They don't have to be the precise rhythms but just any rhythms that come naturally to you which you can work in alongside the stable left hand riff? So don't copy everything precisely but set yourself the 5:4 rhythm and tap whatever you can naturally come up with (basically improv.) until you feel comfortable doing it. How is that for you? This could be a general exercise (this kind of stuff has worked for me before).

 

[every7]

@Gary Duane may be able to provide invaluable advice here.

 

[Gary Duane]

@Gary Duane may be able to provide invaluable advice here.

Probably not in a tennis forum.

The basic idea is that one hand is playing one rhythm, and the other a different one. When two players are playing two instruments, it's difference. Each player knows here "one" is, and you time it. On piano it's very different. It's always a fake beyond 3 against 2, where you get one hand so that it sounds perfect, and they other hand is a part cheat. The cheating hand is softer, and when people do it right you can't catch the cheat.

Like dealing from the wrong part of the deck.

The first thing you have to know is that there IS a cheat going on.

 

[jhick]

Funny that you mentioned Chopin, as I used to be relatively adept at playing part of the op 9 no 1 Nocturne, except when the right hand is playing a bunch of notes that don't fit on the overall time signature. This happens very early on.

I guess my main question is if this can be improved, because it does feel like a handicap at the moment. Is it normal to struggle this much with this sort of thing? I can imagine some people are more naturally able to do this sort of thing, while others struggle more. But can enough practice change your brain and make it able to handle this stuff?

There are probably some are more adept at acquiring this skill than others (just as some people can more naturally keep a beat than others). But in general I think practice and repitition is the key, getting one hand to perform it so well that you can focus on the other rather than having to think about 2 things at once. This is similar to what Gary Duane states above. I've played the nocturne you list above and do this exactly. The left hand is perfected and I have to think more about fitting the right hand notes in.

Somewhat related: Two of my favorite drummers (Harrison and Simon Phillips) talking about playing polyrhythms and odd time signatures.

 

[jhick]

Funny that you mentioned Chopin, as I used to be relatively adept at playing part of the op 9 no 1 Nocturne, except when the right hand is playing a bunch of notes that don't fit on the overall time signature. This happens very early on.

I guess my main question is if this can be improved, because it does feel like a handicap at the moment. Is it normal to struggle this much with this sort of thing? I can imagine some people are more naturally able to do this sort of thing, while others struggle more. But can enough practice change your brain and make it able to handle this stuff?

There are probably some are more adept at acquiring this skill than others (just as some people can more naturally keep a beat than others). But in general I think practice and repitition is the key, getting one hand to perform it so well that you can focus on the other rather than having to think about 2 things at once. This is similar to what Gary Duane states above. I've played the nocturne you list above and do this exactly. The left hand is perfected and I have to think more about fitting the right hand notes in.

Somewhat related: Two of my favorite drummers (Harrison and Simon Phillips) talking about playing polyrhythms and odd time signatures.

 

[Sysyphus]

The only boring advice I can think of is to learn both parts so exhaustively that it becomes completely automatic. Humans are notoriously useless when it comes to devoting conscious attention to two different things at the same time. I have this nasty habit that sometimes when I listen to a podcast or similar, I will begin reading something simultaneously — naturally the end result is that I don't really take in neither what I listened to or what I read. My guess is your problems arise when you're forced to pay some attention and effort into the two rhythmically independent parts.
On the other hand, we are very adept at doing multiple tasks at an unconscious automatic level. Think about driving a car. When you start out, it's a pain in the ass because you have to consciously think of hitting the clutch, when to switch gears, remembering traffic rules or whatever. But an experienced driver will carry out a vast number of operations without consciously paying them any attention at all. Likewise, if Nadal were to begin consciously thinking about correct footwork patterns, 'patting the dog' on the forehand swing, and explicitly thinking through shot selection, he'd make a mess. But it's all deeply ingrained, so he can do it all reactively at a speed that eclipses conscious thought.

So it may help to learn each part exhaustively by itself till it's entirely automatic, and then slowly try to put them together. Personally, I like working with a metronome, beginning at a painstakingly slow tempo and gradually increasing it.

 

[Topspin Shot]

I just tried this, and yes, I can actually do this, but that's because the parts are in synchrony for the most part. This is the best way I can describe it. Does that make sense? I mean, compare We Will Rock You to the Nick Drake's River Man. It's just like night and day in terms of rhythmic difficulty in my opinion.

That's good, means you don't have any major problems with rhythm. All I can recommend is master the right hand, master the left hand, put them together slowly, and finally increase the speed.

 

[Chadillac]

Use a sequencer, much easier, only gotta do it right once.

 

[Sentinel]

I don't know if anyone has mentioned this but you could try this. Not related to music but to the brain.
Try exercises like writing with both hands at the same time. It's easy to write the same thing, or write a mirror image. But then try writing different things at the same time.

It takes a little work I am told, but it takes only a few minutes a day, and beats amputating your right foot.

My brain doesn't allow me to do both parts simultaneously.

I would honestly have my right foot amputated if this gave me the ability to do what I want with music. That's how much this frustrates me. And I'm not talking figuratively, I really do mean it.

 

[Chadillac]

I don't know if anyone has mentioned this but you could try this. Not related to music but to the brain.
Try exercises like writing with both hands at the same time. It's easy to write the same thing, or write a mirror image. But then try writing different things at the same time.

It takes a little work I am told, but it takes only a few minutes a day, and beats amputating your right foot.

The pic i used in this one is interesting, forget what its called. It stimulates both sides of the brain, you either see front, or side. But changes when you think about it

Front = right side, side = left. In reguards to which side your using. Look away and he will be facing you again, at least for me

 

[Comb Over Champion]

Is there really a perfect timing though. He feels the 5/4 essence and does what he does with it. You can play around within the confines of the time signature and give it a bit of swing or some extra decorations and freedoms and whatnot - his right hand playing perhaps leaves something to be desired creatively. Could you do what he does at the piano? Meaning, can you sustain that steady 5/4 platform in the left hand while improvising a bit and riffing away with the right hand, obeying some themes if you wish... ?

To me, a lot of music isn't really there to be played precisely or by the book. There's definitely plenty of room for your own spin with River Man anyway. Doesn't apply to all music, of course. I could never be bothered to fully learn most guitar solos and just made them up.

No, no way I could do what that guy does. I would be so happy if I could. Not even close. I can't sustain the 5/4 time with my left hand and do a lot with my right hand. I've been obsessing a lot about this today, and I think I am a little bit better now at the end of the day than I was this morning, but perhaps it's just my imagination.

To express as vividly what happens to me as possible: I start playing with the left hand a couple of bars, and then, as soon as the right hand comes in, my brain focuses on the right hand and my left hand locks up or it will stutter. This doesn't always happen, but it will happen if the two parts are out of synchrony or are two different in the timing. I just tried it once again, and it does feel like I'm getting a little closer, but I can't be sure.

I guess my question is: Can this be improved a lot through practice? Does your brain really become able to handle this sort of thing eventually? Or are there certain people which won't improve no matter how much time they put? Maybe I need to get a teacher to help me with this stuff?

***

Can you tap the left hand on a table and tap different rhythms in that 5:4 time signature with your right hand? They don't have to be the precise rhythms but just any rhythms that come naturally to you which you can work in alongside the stable left hand riff? So don't copy everything precisely but set yourself the 5:4 rhythm and tap whatever you can naturally come up with (basically improv.) until you feel comfortable doing it. How is that for you? This could be a general exercise (this kind of stuff has worked for me before).

No, I can't do this very well. Both my hands want to fall into the same pattern, so either one ends up failing very soon. The problem is that I don't know if this is normal for somebody at my level. Or are people able to do this sort of thing very fast? When I was taking classes I used to practice about 1 or 2 hours a day, which I don't know if it's par for the course or not. My piano teacher used to tell me that I was one of the clumsiest pupils she had, but that I had an innate good sense for harmony and melody, which is the way I feel as well.

 

[Comb Over Champion]

Probably not in a tennis forum.

The basic idea is that one hand is playing one rhythm, and the other a different one. When two players are playing two instruments, it's difference. Each player knows here "one" is, and you time it. On piano it's very different. It's always a fake beyond 3 against 2, where you get one hand so that it sounds perfect, and they other hand is a part cheat. The cheating hand is softer, and when people do it right you can't catch the cheat.

Like dealing from the wrong part of the deck.

The first thing you have to know is that there IS a cheat going on.

So the brain is not supposed to follow the two parts simulaneously? Because that's what I keep trying to do, and I keep failing. I can't focuse on the two parts at once. And I can't abstract my conscience so that I'm just listening to one part and playing the other matching the one I am playing unconsciously. Is that what you mean by getting one hand so that it sounds perfect? That you play it on automatic pilot so that then you can focus on the other one?

I think I can do the 3 against 2 moderately well, if not perfectly well.

 

[Comb Over Champion]

There are probably some are more adept at acquiring this skill than others (just as some people can more naturally keep a beat than others). But in general I think practice and repitition is the key, getting one hand to perform it so well that you can focus on the other rather than having to think about 2 things at once. This is similar to what Gary Duane states above. I've played the nocturne you list above and do this exactly. The left hand is perfected and I have to think more about fitting the right hand notes in.

Somewhat related: Two of my favorite drummers (Harrison and Simon Phillips) talking about playing polyrhythms and odd time signatures.

I think I used to do the third bar of the nocturne moderately well about 60% of the times at one point, when I was practicing a lot, but the fourth bar was usually a mess. (And that may have to do with the fact that the right hand part is much more complex).

So this is almost like getting muscle memory on the left hand from practicing so much that your brain just moves your fingers out of habit, without you having to consciously focus on the part?

I watched the video, and what that drummer is doing is out in the stratosphere for me. I can't even apreciate what he does, too advanced for me.

 

[Comb Over Champion]

That's good, means you don't have any major problems with rhythm. All I can recommend is master the right hand, master the left hand, put them together slowly, and finally increase the speed.

Thank you, this gives me hope at least. I've always been very impatient, and I don't think that is an acceptable trait for someone looking into becoming a musician. Are you a pianist? Have you had to practice a lot using this strategy?

 

[Comb Over Champion]

I don't know if anyone has mentioned this but you could try this. Not related to music but to the brain.
Try exercises like writing with both hands at the same time. It's easy to write the same thing, or write a mirror image. But then try writing different things at the same time.

It takes a little work I am told, but it takes only a few minutes a day, and beats amputating your right foot.

Have you actually tried doing this? I can't even write anything legible with my left hand. If this is something you have tried yourself, did you become more proficient over time?

Yeah, the foot thing is very drastic. I guess I would really give up my foot if I could gain the ability to play instruments well, not just overcome this hurdle that I'm talking about.

 

[-NN-]

No, no way I could do what that guy does. I would be so happy if I could. Not even close. I can't sustain the 5/4 time with my left hand and do a lot with my right hand. I've been obsessing a lot about this today, and I think I am a little bit better now at the end of the day than I was this morning, but perhaps it's just my imagination.

To express as vividly what happens to me as possible: I start playing with the left hand a couple of bars, and then, as soon as the right hand comes in, my brain focuses on the right hand and my left hand locks up or it will stutter. This doesn't always happen, but it will happen if the two parts are out of synchrony or are two different in the timing. I just tried it once again, and it does feel like I'm getting a little closer, but I can't be sure.

I guess my question is: Can this be improved a lot through practice? Does your brain really become able to handle this sort of thing eventually? Or are there certain people which won't improve no matter how much time they put? Maybe I need to get a teacher to help me with this stuff?

***


No, I can't do this very well. Both my hands want to fall into the same pattern, so either one ends up failing very soon. The problem is that I don't know if this is normal for somebody at my level. Or are people able to do this sort of thing very fast? When I was taking classes I used to practice about 1 or 2 hours a day, which I don't know if it's par for the course or not. My piano teacher used to tell me that I was one of the clumsiest pupils she had, but that I had an innate good sense for harmony and melody, which is the way I feel as well.

I wanted to fish out more about your level before commenting, but I can assure you that this can be very much improved and learned. I always had the same problem when trying to sing at the same time as playing and some people can just do this really well (learn it quite fast I mean) and others can't, but the point is that the skills can be acquired through rigourous repetition AND challenging yourself to get inside the essence of the music in question. You can ingrain that 5:4 feeling into your mind incrementally. Something you could try today is to just play 5 crotchet beats with your left hand, accenting each first beat (or maybe first and third beats) and again try to riff around as you want and please with your right hand. When you get this, you can add the extra rhythm and lilt that the left hand part has and again try to synthesise the right hand. The point here would be to incrementally ingrain the feeling of this rhythmic essence in a simpler format first. Try that and tell me if you were able to keep consistent accents on the first beat and later the first and third beats (and later switching between third and fourth beats) while riffing with your right hand. After that, try with the full left hand rhythm. Tell me if you feel more at one with the combination and can start to naturally apply your own more instinctive rhythms with the right hand.

This is a general sort of incremental practice and exercise that can help you get deeper into the essence of the music. Of course you'd then want to transfer this to your sheet music and whatnot but it's a bit different. The sheet music will often demand a lot of precision from you and strip you of much of the creative licence I'm suggesting you use above and often it's a case of extremely rigourous practice which is structured, disciplined and incremental (such as starting at much slower speeds with a metronome as suggested earlier).

The whole point about my above exercise is to appreciate how to create your own feel within the time signature and to then realise that it's more difficult to learn the obviously different and particular idiosyncrasies of things created by other people. First know that you can create and understand it through your own rhythmic and melodic leanings (within the key and chord structure of the piece).

 

[Comb Over Champion]

I wanted to fish out more about your level before commenting, but I can assure you that this can be very much improved and learned. I always had the same problem when trying to sing at the same time as playing and some people can just do this really well (learn it quite fast I mean) and others can't, but the point is that the skills can be acquired through rigourous repetition AND challenging yourself to get inside the essence of the music in question. You can ingrain that 5:4 feeling into your mind incrementally. Something you could try today is to just play 5 crotchet beats with your left hand, accenting each first beat (or maybe first and third beats) and again try to riff around as you want and please with your right hand. When you get this, you can add the extra rhythm and lilt that the left hand part has and again try to synthesise the right hand. The point here would be to incrementally ingrain the feeling of this rhythmic essence in a simpler format first. Try that and tell me if you were able to keep consistent accents on the first beat and later the first and third beats (and later switching between third and fourth beats) while riffing with your right hand. After that, try with the full left hand rhythm. Tell me if you feel more at one with the combination and can start to naturally apply your own more instinctive rhythms with the right hand.

This is a general sort of incremental practice and exercise that can help you get deeper into the essence of the music. Of course you'd then want to transfer this to your sheet music and whatnot but it's a bit different. The sheet music will often demand a lot of precision from you and strip you of much of the creative licence I'm suggesting you use above and often it's a case of extremely rigourous practice which is structured, disciplined and incremental (such as starting at much slower speeds with a metronome as suggested earlier).

The whole point about my above exercise is to appreciate how to create your own feel within the time signature and to then realise that it's more difficult to learn the obviously different and particular idiosyncrasies of things created by other people. First know that you can create and understand it through your own rhythmic and melodic leanings (within the key and chord structure of the piece).

I've been obsessing about this all day, and I've managed to be able to keep the left hand pattern while first thinking the melody (yes, thinking it, not singing it), and then singing it under my breath. It's not always perfect, but it's better than this morning. I tried playing the line (on the table, not on the piano) with my right hand, and it still doesn't work, but maybe it's a little better (meaning that at least my left hand doesn't simply crumble, even if it stutters a lot).

Thank you for the encouragement. Knowing that this can be improved with practice is really all I need, as it gives me hope. I have re-read the practice method that you outline above, and I'm not sure if I understand it completely. By 5 crotchet beats you mean 5 equally spaced beats repeating over and over, emphasizing the 1st and 3rd beat, like you say?

My music years are very far away, and now I remember that usually the accent goes on the first measure of a bar, unless you are doing syncopated rhythms (is that the right word?). So when I was playing the River Man bass line, I was actually putting the accent on what I thought was the second and fourth measures, and I was actually adding a sixth note at the end. I guess I was doing a syncopated 6:4 maybe, adding a phantom note to the end. Now that I try the same exercise with 5 notes adding emphasis to the first and third, it makes a little more sense, as it adds more structure. By the way, in River Man the 1st and 3rd notes are longer than the rest. That's what I hear, please let me know if I'm not correct.

I just did this again with the new structure, and I'm finding it easier than before. I'm still just playing with my left hand and singing though.

I really appreciate you guys taking the time to respond. I really feel passionate about music, and this has always been a thorn on my side. I would really to at least become competent enough to put my ideas on paper, even if it takes a lot of trial and error and a lot of work.

Thank you for taking the time to help with this.

 

[Comb Over Champion]

The only boring advice I can think of is to learn both parts so exhaustively that it becomes completely automatic. Humans are notoriously useless when it comes to devoting conscious attention to two different things at the same time. I have this nasty habit that sometimes when I listen to a podcast or similar, I will begin reading something simultaneously — naturally the end result is that I don't really take in neither what I listened to or what I read. My guess is your problems arise when you're forced to pay some attention and effort into the two rhythmically independent parts.
On the other hand, we are very adept at doing multiple tasks at an unconscious automatic level. Think about driving a car. When you start out, it's a pain in the ass because you have to consciously think of hitting the clutch, when to switch gears, remembering traffic rules or whatever. But an experienced driver will carry out a vast number of operations without consciously paying them any attention at all. Likewise, if Nadal were to begin consciously thinking about correct footwork patterns, 'patting the dog' on the forehand swing, and explicitly thinking through shot selection, he'd make a mess. But it's all deeply ingrained, so he can do it all reactively at a speed that eclipses conscious thought.

So it may help to learn each part exhaustively by itself till it's entirely automatic, and then slowly try to put them together. Personally, I like working with a metronome, beginning at a painstakingly slow tempo and gradually increasing it.

I'm sorry I didn't respond earlier, I read your post and something interrupted me (I guess quite apropos.) Yes, what you say makes perfect sense. I remember when I used to study piano as a kid and I tried to play something like the Chopin Nocturne I mentioned, I simply tried to focus my brain on both parts at the same time, and I didn't know there was an alternative to that. This would invariably culminate in a whole lot of frustration, as every single failure caused me to think that I needed to try and focus even harder, which never worked.

So the idea is to make part of the process automatic, and to focus your conscious mind on one single part. Man, I seriously don't know how people play Bach. And I had one or two of the simplest Bach pieces when I was studying, BTW. But probably on the bottom tier of Bach difficulty, obviously.

Yeah, I used to have a metronome. It is somewhere still (definitely somewhere in the Universe, but I meant somewhere around here HAHA. Sorry, it's too late and I'm tired.) The thing is that I barely ever used it, but maybe I will look into giving it a shot.

 

[-NN-]

I've been obsessing about this all day, and I've managed to be able to keep the left hand pattern while first thinking the melody (yes, thinking it, not singing it), and then singing it under my breath. It's not always perfect, but it's better than this morning. I tried playing the line (on the table, not on the piano) with my right hand, and it still doesn't work, but maybe it's a little better (meaning that at least my left hand doesn't simply crumble, even if it stutters a lot).

Thank you for the encouragement. Knowing that this can be improved with practice is really all I need, as it gives me hope. I have re-read the practice method that you outline above, and I'm not sure if I understand it completely. By 5 crotchet beats you mean 5 equally spaced beats repeating over and over, emphasizing the 1st and 3rd beat, like you say?

My music years are very far away, and now I remember that usually the accent goes on the first measure of a bar, unless you are doing syncopated rhythms (is that the right word?). So when I was playing the River Man bass line, I was actually putting the accent on what I thought was the second and fourth measures, and I was actually adding a sixth note at the end. I guess I was doing a syncopated 6:4 maybe, adding a phantom note to the end. Now that I try the same exercise with 5 notes adding emphasis to the first and third, it makes a little more sense, as it adds more structure. By the way, in River Man the 1st and 3rd notes are longer than the rest. That's what I hear, please let me know if I'm not correct.

I just did this again with the new structure, and I'm finding it easier than before. I'm still just playing with my left hand and singing though.

I really appreciate you guys taking the time to respond. I really feel passionate about music, and this has always been a thorn on my side. I would really to at least become competent enough to put my ideas on paper, even if it takes a lot of trial and error and a lot of work.

Thank you for taking the time to help with this.

"By 5 crotchet beats you mean 5 equally spaced beats repeating over and over, emphasizing the 1st and 3rd beat, like you say?"

Yes. So a more basic form of a 5:4 macro rhythm, for the sake of delving deeper into the basic structure of the time signature (which emphasising 1st and 3rd beats can help with). It's to help you feel it out - of course not every 5:4 will have emphasis on those beats or any beats and River Man actually follows the the 1st and 4th beats (so now you experimented with 1st and 3rd now actually follow the rhythm of the song.. hopefully there's a moment of realisation here as you switch from 1st and 3rd to 1st and 4th).

Spoiler: Read only after you feel some progress by understanding the sub split of 5:4 within River Man

.. and when you're now feeling the 3 + 2 of the 5:4, now understand that the first 3 beats are really split into 2..

 

[Comb Over Champion]

"By 5 crotchet beats you mean 5 equally spaced beats repeating over and over, emphasizing the 1st and 3rd beat, like you say?"

Yes. So a more basic form of a 5:4 macro rhythm, for the sake of delving deeper into the basic structure of the time signature (which emphasising 1st and 3rd beats can help with). It's to help you feel it out - of course not every 5:4 will have emphasis on those beats or any beats and River Man actually follows the the 1st and 4th beats (so now you experimented with 1st and 3rd now actually follow the rhythm of the song.. hopefully there's a moment of realisation here as you switch from 1st and 3rd to 1st and 4th).

I just tried this, and the first few times it sounded really strange, but then it fell into place. I'm going to make a comment that is probably off, but to me when the emphasis goes into the 1st and 4th note, this almost feels like a degenerate 2:4 now. So, in terms of timing, the 1st and 4th notes are longer? I thought earlier the 3rd note was also longer, but now I'm not sure.

The reason why I don't know any of this, is because I think I have deformed the River Man time signature in my mind now. I haven't listened it for a few hours now, and it has shifted form from practicing, if it makes sense.

 

[-NN-]

I just tried this, and the first few times it sounded really strange, but then it fell into place. I'm going to make a comment that is probably off, but to me when the emphasis goes into the 1st and 4th note, this almost feels like a degenerate 2:4 now. So, in terms of timing, the 1st and 4th notes are longer? I thought earlier the 3rd note was also longer, but now I'm not sure.

The reason why I don't know any of this, is because I think I have deformed the River Man time signature in my mind now. I haven't listened it for a few hours now, and it has shifted form from practicing, if it makes sense.

I can't be sure what you mean, so I'm just going to post further illustrations - I'm glad some things are being understood and falling into place.

Spoiler: worse

That's the fundamental rhythmic structure without any fanciness (I've split the left hand across two staves).

Notice the 1st and 4th beats and notice how the first 3 are split into 2. Check what you're doing against this and tap out the bass rhythm while counting to 5 in your head - ignore the top line and see if you can riff on top of just the fundamental bass rhythm. At your leisure play the full shebang (with swing eventually) along with right-hand shenanigans, or practice the left hand while singing + other combos you can think of (it all helps).

 

[Dedans Penthouse]

I can do the parts independently. My brain doesn't allow me to do both parts simultaneously. That is the main problem. I'm good at independent rhythms, and my timing is excellent (I think) with individual parts. It's when you add another part that everything breaks down for me. The song is plain beauty, yes. Nick Drake is one of my favorite artists ever.

In trying to coordinate the flow of the guitar and vox in that Nick Drake piece, try this on the piano:

use you 'chordal' left hand to add connecting notes to fill out the 'numerator' of that time signature.

(sure that reads clear as mud)

or, do what dummy's do: take up the bass . . . j/k bassists...​

.

 

[Comb Over Champion]

I can't be sure what you mean, so I'm just going to post further illustrations - I'm glad some things are being understood and falling into place.

Spoiler: worse

That's the fundamental rhythmic structure without any fanciness (I've split the left hand across two staves).

Notice the 1st and 4th beats and notice how the first 3 are split into 2. Check what you're doing against this and tap out the bass rhythm while counting to 5 in your head - ignore the top line and see if you can riff on top of just the fundamental bass rhythm. At your leisure play the full shebang (with swing eventually) along with right-hand shenanigans, or practice the left hand while singing + other combos you can think of (it all helps).

WOW, I really hadn't thought of it that way. So the 5:4 is like a 3:4 plus a 2:4, and the 1st and 4th measures are the first of each of these subdivisions within each 5:4 bar. That is incredibly useful, to break it apart like that. Also, seeing the notes written out somehow helps me visualize what's going on when I'm trying to follow through tapping the pattern with my left hand and singing the other part.

Quick question: the notation that you have at the last bar in the first line (sorry, I don't know the nomenclature for the notation, I didn't study this in English), which is 3|2 over 4, is that standard notation for what is going on, or is it your own notation?

I am going to get myself a MIDI keyboard for Christmas, and I also intend on re-educating myself. This is incredibly useful and it shuttles my mind back to when I did this as a kid (I took Solfege before I started my piano classes, and all this stuff with time signatures is something I haven't seen in a long time).

I still haven't gone through the "Worse" part yet, I'm playing along and assimilating this first epiphany.

I am very grateful for you taking the time to help me. Can you recommend any books for basic musical exercises? Something including time signatures, practice, basic harmony, and stuff like that?

 

[Comb Over Champion]

In trying to coordinate the flow of the guitar and vox in that Nick Drake piece, try this on the piano:

use you 'chordal' left hand to add connecting notes to fill out the 'numerator' of that time signature.

(sure that reads clear as mud)

or, do what dummy's do: take up the bass . . . j/k bassists...​

.

I am not 100% sure what you mean, but I think you mean that the stronger notes of the chord part, which to me they feell like the 1st, 3rd and 5th note (the 5th note being the first note of the 2:4 part) are dominant and coincide with emphasis in the vocal part? (Not exact coincidence, but off by a fraction of a note, it feels).

HAHA. Yeah, bassists. I've heard that joke before. Wasn't that in Spinal Tap?

 

[Comb Over Champion]

Double post, so I'll use it to post the commercial that brought Nick Drake to my attention. It was running the year 2000.

 

[-NN-]

WOW, I really hadn't thought of it that way. So the 5:4 is like a 3:4 plus a 2:4, and the 1st and 4th notes are the first of each of these subdivisions within each 5:4 bar. That is incredibly useful, to break it apart like that. Also, seeing the notes written out somehow helps me visualize what's going on when I'm trying to follow through tapping the pattern with my left hand and singing the other part.

Quick question: the notation that you have at the last bar in the first line (sorry, I don't know the nomenclature for the notation, I didn't study this in English), which is 3|2 over 4, is that standard notation for what is going on, or is it your own notation?

I am going to get myself a MIDI keyboard for Christmas, and I also intend on re-educating myself. This is incredibly useful and it shuttles my mind back to when I did this as a kid (I took Solfege before I started my piano classes, and all this stuff with time signatures is something I haven't seen in a long time).

I still haven't gone through the "Worse" part yet, I'm playing along and assimilating this first epiphany.

I am very grateful for you taking the time to help me. Can you recommend any books for basic musical exercises? Something including time signatures, practice, basic harmony, and stuff like that?

the 3+2:4 style of time signature (additive) is common enough though perhaps not usually with 5:4 .. it was just to incrementally demonstrate the structure of the 5:4 material in River Man.

You might use it if you have sections of music that follow more unusual and complex subdivisions within bars (additive time signatures). Things can get even weirder with fractional and irrational time signatures, which take some explaining. If one wants 4 triplet minims beats in a bar then I might write 4:3. I'm not sure about most of them myself. Say you want to split a 9:8 bar into 4,2 and 3, you might write 4+2+3:9.

I can't recommend a book to you. I have used a couple of general music theory and practice books in my life and I wouldn't exactly recommend them. Maybe you can look into reviews for Theory and Analysis by Clendinning and Marvin but I didn't think much to it. In terms of a book more specific to performance practice, I can't help you.

Hopefully somebody else can help you there.

 

[Comb Over Champion]

the 3+2:4 style of time signature (additive) is common enough though perhaps not usually with 5:4 .. it was just to incrementally demonstrate the structure of the 5:4 material in River Man.

You might use it if you have sections of music that follow more unusual and complex subdivisions within bars (additive time signatures). Things can get even weirder with fractional and irrational time signatures, which take some explaining. If one wants 4 triplet minims beats in a bar then I might write 4:3. I'm not sure about most of them myself. Say you want to split a 9:8 bar into 4,2 and 3, you might write 4+2+3:9.

I can't recommend a book to you. I have used a couple of general music theory and practice books in my life and I wouldn't exactly recommend them. Maybe you can look into reviews for Theory and Analysis by Clendinning and Marvin but I didn't think much to it. In terms of a book more specific to performance practice, I can't help you.

Hopefully somebody else can help you there.

I understand what you say about the time signature notation. Talking about irrational time signatures and those subdivisions honestly boggles my mind. It's like thinking of flying when I am learning to crawl. As a matter of fact, in the 2 or 3 years I studied basic music I don't think anyone ever mentioned it to me. It's good to know there is a wide world out there to explore, even if it is a very complex one. Just because I don't understand all the physics involved in galaxy formation, it doesn't mean I can't look at the Milky Way in a cloudless summer night and wonder.

Yeah, I'll look into those book reviews. How did you attain this knowledge? College? Feel free to PM if you don't want to divulge.

I know there is a free online library of music scores somewhere in the Internet, and I suppose a way to learn this (though maybe not a very efficient way to do so) would be to pick some of those and a some CDs and follow along. I guess the problem would be in that case to know which version they are using, as it seems that there is a bunch of different publications for a given musical score.

 

[-NN-]

I understand what you say about the time signature notation. Talking about irrational time signatures and those subdivisions honestly boggles my mind. It's like thinking of flying when I am learning to crawl. As a matter of fact, in the 2 or 3 years I studied basic music I don't think anyone ever mentioned it to me. It's good to know there is a wide world out there to explore, even if it is a very complex one. Just because I don't understand all the physics involved in galaxy formation, it doesn't mean I can't look at the Milky Way in a cloudless summer night and wonder.

Yeah, I'll look into those book reviews. How did you attain this knowledge? College? Feel free to PM if you don't want to divulge.

I know there is a free online library of music scores somewhere in the Internet, and I suppose a way to learn this (though maybe not a very efficient way to do so) would be to pick some of those and a some CDs and follow along. I guess the problem would be in that case to know which version they are using, as it seems that there is a bunch of different publications for a given musical score.

A lot of music study and also schooling.

IMSLP.org is probably the website you're referring to. For sure, you should use it. I do do a lot of listening and preferred learning that way but at some point it's good to follow with scores and actually understand more of what's going on. You'll find lots of performances on good old youtube, of course.

 

[Topspin Shot]

Thank you, this gives me hope at least. I've always been very impatient, and I don't think that is an acceptable trait for someone looking into becoming a musician. Are you a pianist? Have you had to practice a lot using this strategy?

I played in piano concerts when I was a kid. Whenever I had to learn a challenging passage, whether it was because there was a lot going on or a tricky rhythm, that's what I did.

 

[movdqa]

Music has been the unatainable love of my life. I had piano lessons as a kid for a number of years, but quit because I wasn't getting anywhere. I could play some pieces reasonably well if I was relaxed, but more often than not it was a painful experience. My hands would get stiff, so I would either play too loud or too soft. Sustain pedal action was a mess. But...

The most challenging thing for me was hand independence. This is the main subject of my post. Hand independence at the piano (specifically parts with different metrics/rhythms) was incredibly hard. It's as if my brain can't even think the two different parts simultaneously. To give you an example: Listen to this piece by Nick Drake (River Man). It's not a piano piece, but it is a very clear example of what I mean. Notice the rhythmic pattern in the chord part and then notice the main melodic line (voice). It's pure beauty, but it's something I don't think I'd be able to ever play.

I can't overstate how much this frustrates me. I am very good at thinking songs in my head. I am very good at coming up with melodies, harmonies, etc. But I can't execute. I don't know if it's something intrinsically wrong with my brain, or if it is something that could be learned. This problem threw me into a deep depression a few times, and recently I've been thinking of pursuing music again, and I'm going down that same path. I just want to know if it's a hopeless pursuit and I'd better forget about music and move in a different direction. Ironically, I'm exceptionally good at writing, but it never attracted me so much as the pure joy of music for some reason (Fate's cruel design, I think).

Our kids took piano lessons for quite a few years and this is one of those things that amazed me - that they could play different timing with their hands. I don't know how they did this but it seems to be a fairly routine part of piano lessons (it's a couple of years into lessons I recall). I brought them to their teacher every week and they practiced at home.

So it's a mystery to me but it seems like a fairly routine thing that kids learn in lessons.

 

[-NN-]

I understand what you say about the time signature notation. Talking about irrational time signatures and those subdivisions honestly boggles my mind. It's like thinking of flying when I am learning to crawl. As a matter of fact, in the 2 or 3 years I studied basic music I don't think anyone ever mentioned it to me. It's good to know there is a wide world out there to explore, even if it is a very complex one. Just because I don't understand all the physics involved in galaxy formation, it doesn't mean I can't look at the Milky Way in a cloudless summer night and wonder.

Yeah, I'll look into those book reviews. How did you attain this knowledge? College? Feel free to PM if you don't want to divulge.

I know there is a free online library of music scores somewhere in the Internet, and I suppose a way to learn this (though maybe not a very efficient way to do so) would be to pick some of those and a some CDs and follow along. I guess the problem would be in that case to know which version they are using, as it seems that there is a bunch of different publications for a given musical score.

Progress report?

 

[AlxThm]

Have you ever thought about changing instrument? I'm a guitar player who started with piano, then tried drums and then realized that just wasn't for me so i tried guitar and here i am playing it science 14 and making some money at local clubs science 17

 

[Comb Over Champion]

Progress report?

I have been practicing a few times most days, and I think I do see definite improvement, which is strange and exhilarating at once. Here's what I have been doing: I play the strumming part of the song with my left hand on a table, as I sing the melody. Some other times I do the same with my left hand, but then I use the right hand to "play" the melody on a table as well. When I play with my left hand and sing, I pretty much have no problem now. Before I couldn't even think of the left part and the right part together. Playing with both hands is much more challenging, but I think it's better.

Here's what I think helped a lot: When you posted the music sheets, that allowed me to see the actual metric of the music, and now, as I play it with my hand on the table, I visualize the notes. Does it make sense? I guess that it engages another part of my brain (the visual part?) so now things are separate and don't get mixed up.

I was intending to buy a keyboard to actually play, but I'm not doing that for at least a few weeks.

I'll PM you shortly with some music I created a while back, so you get an idea of why this is important to me.

 

[Comb Over Champion]

Have you ever thought about changing instrument? I'm a guitar player who started with piano, then tried drums and then realized that just wasn't for me so i tried guitar and here i am playing it science 14 and making some money at local clubs science 17

Guitar is another instrument that I would really like to be good at, but I know I would have much more trouble than I have with piano. The reason I know this is because my parents enrolled me in a guitar course when I was 10 or 11, and it was a miserable failure. I don't know if @-NN- or some other people would agree, but I think guitar is more challenging than piano (at least it was for me,) just based on the way you need to move your fingers. I find piano to be much more "orthogonal" if you will.

Have you ever tried going back to piano? Maybe you would be better at it now? Congratulations to you for not giving up and finding an instrument that you are good at. The guitar, no less! Have you tried playing any of Nick Drake's songs, BTW?