Pro's and Volkl

[NoBadMojo]

Someone posted late last year that his DNX V1 was 0.6 oz over spec. That is worse than Wilson or Head, where I have heard 0.4 oz deviation max. The racquets are made in China, just like most other sticks except some Yonex models.

hahahahahahahaha....so on the basis of what one person posted, that therefore in your mind means that Volkl quality isnt very good...lol

let's see..... .6 over spec on a Volkl likely means that the guy confused unstrung specs and strung specs as strings weigh .5 oz and poly a bit more.

oh..how about the ever popular someone knows someone who knows someone who owns a tennis shop somewhere and they think they heard from the Wilson or Head rep that they think that volkl isnt doing well....lol

 

[BounceHitBounceHit]

To the OP:

I wonder why you ask this question?

Seriously, what the pros play with has precious little to do with what most recreational (or for that matter, even MOST serious competitive players) will likely swing best.

CC

 

[sureshs]

hahahahahahahaha....so on the basis of what one person posted, that therefore in your mind means that Volkl quality isnt very good...lol

let's see..... .6 over spec on a Volkl likely means that the guy confused unstrung specs and strung specs as strings weigh .5 oz and poly a bit more.

He clarified they were strung specs and he was comparing apples to apples.

Why would I not believe him? I treat him the same as others who have found 0.4 oz discrepancy in Wilson or Head, and I have been able to confirm that myself. I measured 10 Head Prestige Pro racquets before buying one.

Unfortunately I cannot do the same for Volkl because the pro shops around here have stopped carrying them since they don't sell.

 

[drakulie]

Volkl because the pro shops around here have stopped carrying them since they don't sell.

Same here. One pro shop is carrying Becker Frames, but Volkl is out.

 

[Klatu Verata Necktie]

same old crap. about the only thing people have to complain about with these frames is the hologram stickers were peeling off the frames with the really thin beams. volkl/becker has even addressed that by making the new stickers rectangular...same sorry old garbage crap being posted by the same people over and over again...laughable

Do you think these people who supposedly bash Volkl are really hate the brand and its products, or could it be something else?

 

[sargeinaz]

Do you think these people who supposedly bash Volkl are really hate the brand and its products, or could it be something else?

I think it's something else. Like they own stock in head or wilson or something. I mean I hate ford mustangs, but on the car forums I dont go into every ford mustang thread just to bash mustangs. I actually dont even click on the mustang threads. So it has to be something else.
________
Masturbation girl

 

[giolp]

He clarified they were strung specs and he was comparing apples to apples.

Why would I not believe him? I treat him the same as others who have found 0.4 oz discrepancy in Wilson or Head, and I have been able to confirm that myself. I measured 10 Head Prestige Pro racquets before buying one.

Unfortunately I cannot do the same for Volkl because the pro shops around here have stopped carrying them since they don't sell.

as far as my experience with Volkl sticks is concerned, I bought (online shop) 2 brand new Tour 10 VE Mid which weighted 311 and 318 grams unstrung respectively.
both are pretty off the declared specs.

 

[sureshs]

Same here. One pro shop is carrying Becker Frames, but Volkl is out.

It is clear BB is pushing BB and deemphasizing Volkl.

 

[sureshs]

as far as my experience with Volkl sticks is concerned, I bought (online shop) 2 brand new Tour 10 VE Mid which weighted 311 and 318 grams unstrung respectively.
both are pretty off the declared specs.

OMG if I have done the math right with strings = 0.5 oz, it is more than 0.6 oz less than the supposed 12.2 oz strung?

That is HORRIBLE! One poster found a DNX V1 which was 0.6 oz more, this is about the same on the other side.

What is going on? These are worse than Wilson and Head. Why are people claiming these are premium racquets with German engineering?

 

[giolp]

OMG if I have done the math right with strings = 0.5 oz, it is more than 0.6 oz less than the supposed 12.2 oz strung?

That is HORRIBLE! One poster found a DNX V1 which was 0.6 oz more, this is about the same on the other side.

What is going on? These are worse than Wilson and Head. Why are people claiming these are premium racquets with German engineering?

the heavier one weighs 346 grams with tecnifibre multifeel 17 gauge, volkl dampener and overgrip.

IMHO, unless we don't know exactly how the QC is made out of the production line in China, it is difficult to make any claim about the German quality.

 

[sureshs]

I have never understood why TW publishes average specs of several samples. No one plays with a lot of racquets changing them every millisecond to get the feeling of average. You use one racquet and you are stuck with it. Who cares what the average is? When you marry someone, do you care what the average man or woman is? And in statistics, average is meaningless unless there is some other measure supplied - like confidence interval or standard deviation. I would rather they just posted the manufacturer's unstrung specs.

 

[giolp]

I have never understood why TW publishes average specs of several samples. No one plays with a lot of racquets changing them every millisecond to get the feeling of average. You use one racquet and you are stuck with it. Who cares what the average is? When you marry someone, do you care what the average man or woman is? And in statistics, average is meaningless unless there is some other measure supplied - like confidence interval or standard deviation. I would rather they just posted the manufacturer's unstrung specs.

many manufacturers, including volkl, write the specs ON THE FRAME, and publish them on their websites as well.
quite ironically, the only company that I've seen writing "average weight" on the frames is Yonex.

I completely agree with you on the confidence interval / standard deviation issue.

 

[SFrazeur]

The average is to give a person a better idea of what the specs will be for a racquet they purchase. Quality control differs from batches to batches I would imagine; one series of batches may be lighter while another series of batches are heavier. By averaging, the consumer has a better idea what TW's stock is like. I do agree that I would like to see the manufactures target specs listed, although in addition. It is rather needlessly annoying to have to go to a manufacturers website to find that out.

-SF

 

[sureshs]

I do agree that I would like to see the manufactures target specs listed, although in addition. It is rather needlessly annoying to have to go to a manufacturers website to find that out.

-SF

Or a competitor's.

I also thought in the same way at first - let TW list published and average specs. Then I realized it is not going to happen. It will result in the manufacturer's deficiencies being posted for all the world to see. Even if TW was willing, the manufacturers won't let them. Doesn't happen in any other industry either that I know of.

 

[giolp]

it's also a matter of tolerances: do we know officially the off specs tolerances for each manufacturer?
that could be a very interesting and useful information

 

[sureshs]

it's also a matter of tolerances: do we know officially the off specs tolerances for each manufacturer?
that could be a very interesting and useful information

One time a poster who complained to Wilson got a letter from them. If I recall right, the tolerance was +/- 0.25 oz and +/- 2 pts balance, actually slightly more I think when expressed in grams and centimeters.

 

[NoBadMojo]

it's also a matter of tolerances: do we know officially the off specs tolerances for each manufacturer?
that could be a very interesting and useful information

i know. industry tolerances for racquets are +- .03.. a couple companies do better than that. volkl and fischer typically operate at +- .015

 

[couch]

Or a competitor's.

I also thought in the same way at first - let TW list published and average specs. Then I realized it is not going to happen. It will result in the manufacturer's deficiencies being posted for all the world to see. Even if TW was willing, the manufacturers won't let them. Doesn't happen in any other industry either that I know of.

What do you mean the manufacturers won't let them? They are showing an average weight of several (not sure the number of sticks they measure) sticks on their site so in a sense they already are (showing the manufacturer's deficiencies) by doing this aren't they? I mean, anyone that knows it's an avg. on TW's site can check other places and see the variances.

What do you think?

 

[giolp]

i know. industry tolerances for racquets are +- .03.. a couple companies do better than that. volkl and fischer typically operate at +- .015

I was the unlucky one then...my VE Mids weighted 311 and 318 grams unstrung, while the listed weight should have been 330 grams, if I'm not mistaken 5.76% and 3.64% respectively tout of the official specs

 

[ericsson]

i know. industry tolerances for racquets are +- .03.. a couple companies do better than that. volkl and fischer typically operate at +- .015

Yep, my sticks (6 genI's) are all within 3 grams stock, after modify there within 0,5 gram

 

[sureshs]

What do you mean the manufacturers won't let them? They are showing an average weight of several (not sure the number of sticks they measure) sticks on their site so in a sense they already are (showing the manufacturer's deficiencies) by doing this aren't they? I mean, anyone that knows it's an avg. on TW's site can check other places and see the variances.

What do you think?

But they typically won't cross check and TW doesn't post them side by side. How many recreational players who buy a racquet care about such things?

 

[sureshs]

I was the unlucky one then...my VE Mids weighted 311 and 318 grams unstrung, while the listed weight should have been 330 grams, if I'm not mistaken 5.76% and 3.64% respectively tout of the official specs

You are the second "unlucky" one and who knows whether anyone else checked? I don't buy the tolerance numbers. The poster who talked about Wilson's letter actually scanned it and posted it here. If I knew what to search for exactly, I could find it.

I would like to see references for any "industry-wide" or Volkl tolerances quoted here.

 

[Seacoast Stringer]

I really like some of the Volkl offerings and the specs of some of the Boris Becker sticks look good too. Volkl racquets have always been some of the most well made frames out there with excellent QC. I also agree that Fischer is at that same level as well. I also must grudgingly admit that it has become harder to find shops selling Volkl anymore and I have hardly seen any being used on the courts or coming in to be strung. Hopefully with the Becker marketing program..this will change. I agree with Craig Clark in that most serious players could give a hoot what the pros are playing with.

 

[couch]

But they typically won't cross check and TW doesn't post them side by side. How many recreational players who buy a racquet care about such things?

If I do (cross check) then I'm sure a lot of players do/will. But I could be the minority. We're sitting here having a discussion about it so I guess some people care and/or check.

I don't care if my sticks are a few grams off but I can certainly tell if there is a 7-10 gram diffence between two sticks. I've only had one Volkl Tour 8 that has been what I would consider "out of spec" and I could tell as soon as I got it and picked it up. It was heavier and seemed more head-heavy than my other sticks. I can't remember the exact differences because I never used the stick. I have become very accustomed to how these sticks feel since I've used them for 5 years or so and have had about 9-10 of them.

I guess a simple fix would be for companies to offer a "no tolerance" policy like Fischer huh? Or simply have better QC.

 

[couch]

I really like some of the Volkl offerings and the specs of some of the Boris Becker sticks look good too. Volkl racquets have always been some of the most well made frames out there with excellent QC. I also agree that Fischer is at that same level as well. I also must grudgingly admit that it has become harder to find shops selling Volkl anymore and I have hardly seen any being used on the courts or coming in to be strung. Hopefully with the Becker marketing program..this will change. I agree with Craig Clark in that most serious players could give a hoot what the pros are playing with.

Hey Seacoast, I love your Vantage specs. Almost identical to my Volkl Tour 8's. I may have told you that before, can't remember.

Did you ever play the Tour 8's? If you did, how do the Vantages compare?

 

[NoBadMojo]

Yep, my sticks (6 genI's) are all within 3 grams stock, after modify there within 0,5 gram

that's typically how things are. here is a part of an email from an MRT who ended up with a few of my DNX9's. much of the difference in the specs was because the leather I had on them weighed differently in spite of them all being Babolat leather grips. ...i would have never thought something like this could be the case

<paste>
Frame 3 was the heaviest (318g), 2 the lightest (313g), 1 was right in the middle at 315.3g. I removed the grips from 2 and 3 and switched them. That made the gap between the lightest and the heaviest 3g....was able to match all 3 at 317g 30.5 bp and 293 sw....

Strung them up with lux alu at 22.5kg...they are all between 318 and 320 for final strung sw...For me..Perfect.

Hit with one this morning after my ALTA match...should have used it instead of 10ve...I was hitting about 3 ft deeper in the court with less effort, more clearance over the net and better rotation...Serves...pace and spin is just better...Can you say: Age and mids don't mix? Never thought I would say it....

Is it just me or are these grips more square than earlier models? It feels different than my VEmids...maybe it's the leather...I like it...I was absolutely crushing my backhand with it...

Cheers!
<end paste>

most of the regular people are way past tired of the same people here spreading crap over and over again and blowing up any thread mentioning Volkl or Becker. it's transcends obsessively weird. most of the regular people here acknowledge that Volkl/becker makes fine stuff, and that there are several trolls here who have agendas...it's really creepy

 

[sureshs]

I've only had one Volkl Tour 8 that has been what I would consider "out of spec" and I could tell as soon as I got it and picked it up. It was heavier and seemed more head-heavy than my other sticks.

I guess a simple fix would be for companies to offer a "no tolerance" policy like Fischer huh? Or simply have better QC.

This is the third case of a Volkl tolerance "outing" then.

Fisher guarantees weight - not balance. What is the point of that?

QC can be improved but I think cost might be playing a big role here. Or else it is a case of "if no one is complaining, don't fix it" (even if doesn't cost much). I don't know.

The racquet industry seems to be based on marketing gimmicks. A few proven technologies emerge, like O ports and Microgel, but for the most part, they are pathetic attempts to mislead people (flexpoint, polarized magnets etc). With this mentality, I would not expect them to pay much attention to quality control. In fact, it might work against them. If players got exactly what the specs say, they would develop a feel for what weight and balance means. Next time they are presented with a bogus upgrade, they will first ask - what are the real specs of what I am demoing? What are the real specs I was using before? Have I isolated the differing factors between my old racquet and the demo before I declare that I have found the "Holy Grail"? Or am I just comparing one out-of-spec specimen with another? I have a feeling they will not upgrade easily once they do the analysis.

On the other hand, as long as specs vary widely and everyone is confused, they might think the new demo is actually better. When they get the real one, they will go thru a honeymoon period when they will deny it is not the same as the demo. After that, time for a new stick again.

 

[couch]

This is the third case of a Volkl tolerance "outing" then.

I wouldn't necessarily call it an "outing". Actually, I've probably had about 12-13 of these racquets since I've been playing with them and currently have about 9-10. I've broken a few on overheads if you know what I mean. So I would say to have maybe 12 out of 13 racquets to be what I consider "on spec" is pretty good.

I'm not sure what the other companies racquets are like (tolerance wise) since I've been using Volkl for a while now. All I can really do is comment on my experiences. My personal opionion is that every company makes pretty good sticks with a few exceptions. Maybe I'm wrong, I just don't know.

 

[Seacoast Stringer]

Hey Seacoast, I love your Vantage specs. Almost identical to my Volkl Tour 8's. I may have told you that before, can't remember.

Did you ever play the Tour 8's? If you did, how do the Vantages compare?

Hi Couch, are the Tour 8's the slightly extended length red/black model? If so I can only remember hitting with them briefly a few years ago and can't really do a good comparison. I do remember that I liked the frame but it might have been a bit stiff...but my memory is not that great. A friend of mine used that frame for years (if it is the one that I am thinking about), up until last year, and he loved them. It might have been the length that initially turned me off. I will say that the Vantage spec that I am using is really sweet for me and it is very comfortable with good feel. Sorry I couldn't be more of a help.

 

[couch]

This is the third case of a Volkl tolerance "outing" then.

Fisher guarantees weight - not balance. What is the point of that?

QC can be improved but I think cost might be playing a big role here. Or else it is a case of "if no one is complaining, don't fix it" (even if doesn't cost much). I don't know.

The racquet industry seems to be based on marketing gimmicks. A few proven technologies emerge, like O ports and Microgel, but for the most part, they are pathetic attempts to mislead people (flexpoint, polarized magnets etc). With this mentality, I would not expect them to pay much attention to quality control. In fact, it might work against them. If players got exactly what the specs say, they would develop a feel for what weight and balance means. Next time they are presented with a bogus upgrade, they will first ask - what are the real specs of what I am demoing? What are the real specs I was using before? Have I isolated the differing factors between my old racquet and the demo before I declare that I have found the "Holy Grail"? Or am I just comparing one out-of-spec specimen with another? I have a feeling they will not upgrade easily once they do the analysis.

On the other hand, as long as specs vary widely and everyone is confused, they might think the new demo is actually better. When they get the real one, they will go thru a honeymoon period when they will deny it is not the same as the demo. After that, time for a new stick again.

Okay, I'm confused. I'm gonna go demo a new racquet right now. JK

I do kinda understand what you're saying it's just hard for me to fall for it since I'd like to feel I'm somewhat educated when it comes to all this stuff. The general public, now that's a totally different animal like you said.

 

[couch]

Hi Couch, are the Tour 8's the slightly extended length red/black model? If so I can only remember hitting with them briefly a few years ago and can't really do a good comparison. I do remember that I liked the frame but it might have been a bit stiff...but my memory is not that great. A friend of mine used that frame for years (if it is the one that I am thinking about), up until last year, and he loved them. It might have been the length that initially turned me off. I will say that the Vantage spec that I am using is really sweet for me and it is very comfortable with good feel. Sorry I couldn't be more of a help.

No problemo. Yeah, the length is about the only difference from your Vantages and my Tour 8's. My 8's weigh in at about 11.4 grams strung, a little heavier than the stock strung weight of 11.0 oz. strung.

When they stopped making the Tour 8's I dabbled with the idea of getting a couple of Vantage frames with the same exact specs but the pricing turned me off a little bit. Sounds like they recently had a big sale though which would have worked out nicely back then. Since then I've found a few on the bay and have plenty in reserve.

 

[SFrazeur]

Or a competitor's.

I also thought in the same way at first - let TW list published and average specs. Then I realized it is not going to happen. It will result in the manufacturer's deficiencies being posted for all the world to see. Even if TW was willing, the manufacturers won't let them. Doesn't happen in any other industry either that I know of.

Which is why I would list TW's averaged strung specs as strung and manufactures target specs as unstrung. There is going to be a difference anyway as my strings would be of a different weight than TW strung specs which can change balance slightly as well.

-SF

 

[Rabbit]

The 3 C10s that I play with, all strung with leather grips in the bag. They weigh 357 grams, 357 grams, and 358 grams. One of them is a fishnet purchased in 1998, one was purchased in 2001 and the last one was purchased last year (2007).

The balance point is off on one of them by one point. Not enough to worry about IMO.

I have 3 more in the closet, never strung with standard grips all purchased last year. They weigh 327 grams, 327 grams, and 329 grams.

So, over 10 years and 6 frames, we have one 1 gram out and one two grams out. The 1 gram out frame could be attributed to the leather grip, or the amount of double sided tape, or an extra staple in the butt cap. The one that's two grams out could be it was just 2 grams out. I don't feel like stripping them down and weighing them, but 2 grams really doesn't mean a lot. Pretty good QC if you ask me.

A couple of years ago, I bought a couple of K90's. I bought them off the rack here locally. They were the same weight, to the gram.

The biggest difference I've seen in frames is from a buddy of mine. He has some old Prince frames, the double bridge that Rafter originally used. He has 4 of them and they vary by 10 grams or more and the balance point is off on all of them.

 

[sureshs]

Which is why I would list TW's averaged strung specs as strung and manufactures target specs as unstrung. There is going to be a difference anyway as my strings would be of a different weight than TW strung specs which can change balance slightly as well.

-SF

You are assuming string weight differences will somehow compensate for racquet weight differences? Why would that be? Averaging with strings in one case and not averaging without strings in the other are completely different situations.

 

[sureshs]

OK here is what I mentioned before:

http://www.regentville.com/2007_09_01_archive.html

+/- 7.5 gms, +/- 1 cm

 

[Klatu Verata Necktie]

Where can I see proof that the Pure Drive was developed for 3.0 females? It's interesting that a racquet that was designed for low level play found its way to the highest levels of professional tennis.

 

[sureshs]

Where can I see proof that the Pure Drive was developed for 3.0 females? It's interesting that a racquet that was designed for low level play found its way to the highest levels of professional tennis.

The main reason was Roddick.

 

[Klatu Verata Necktie]

The main reason was Roddick.

I thought Moya was using the Pure Drive before Roddick. Anyhow, why would Roddick or Moya choose a racquet that was developed for 3.0 females? I'd have thought Babolat would have steered them towards different frames.

 

[drakulie]

Hey NBMJ, since the Pure drive was developed for 3.0 women, who was Volkl designed for since there are only 3 pros using them?

Thanks in advance.

 

[sureshs]

I thought Moya was using the Pure Drive before Roddick. Anyhow, why would Roddick or Moya choose a racquet that was developed for 3.0 females? I'd have thought Babolat would have steered them towards different frames.

When Bab says the frame was originally designed for the older recreational female, it doesn't mean it could not be used for anything else. In those days (1994?), people still thought heavy, flexible and small-headed racquets was the only serious way to go, so anything lighter, bigger and stiffer would have been meant for recreational females. But several things happened at the same time: Roddick, polys, and the rise of the topspin game. Though PD stock is probably not used by pros, it met the need of the emerging juniors who played with a 2 handed backhand and wanted more topspin. Thus things clicked. Bab also protected its dealers with beneficial terms, and gave them a consistent product to sell, without asking them to churn racquets continuously and play the price war.

 

[sureshs]

Hey NBMJ, since the Pure drive was developed for 3.0 women, who was Volkl designed for since there are only 3 pros using them?

Thanks in advance.

How many recreational players use them since I don't see any at my club? More than three I hope?

 

[drakulie]

I actually hit with a lady today who was using a Volkl. One of the few I have seen at the club.

 

[jackcrawford]

Where can I see proof that the Pure Drive was developed for 3.0 females? It's interesting that a racquet that was designed for low level play found its way to the highest levels of professional tennis.

Can the Volkl apologist also explain away Babolat's success with strings that goes back more than a hundred years? Those lucky Bab guys just blundered into VS gut!! And oh, right, V-Rex is better than Pro Hurricane, it's just those 3.0 women who don't realize it. The real story is that some companies know how to make a profit, and some don't. There is also a lesson to be learned that making a frame that can be used by just about anyone like the Pure Drive (which can be customized by weight and string to work at club or on the tour) and marketing it properly including paying the right pros the right price works - it's not luck.

 

[slice bh compliment]

So funny that there is a Volkl / Babolat tiff. They actually have a lot in common.
Babolat execs actually emulated some of Volkl's marketing strategies: less internet, no bigbox discount stores, no low-end/prestrung offerings.

 

[louis netman]

Hey NBMJ, since the Pure drive was developed for 3.0 women, who was Volkl designed for since there are only 3 pros using them?

Thanks in advance.

Their downfall. A brilliant niche manufacturer who initially sought out accomplished, slightly elder players...then decides to go mass market.....competing head to head with Wilson, Head and Prince.....not-so-smooth-move X-lax....I mean, Vol-kl....

 

[NoBadMojo]

Hey NBMJ, since the Pure drive was developed for 3.0 women, who was Volkl designed for since there are only 3 pros using them?

Thanks in advance.

Hey Darkula..i guess you dont understand that the two parts of your query are in no way related to one another and that most people know that you've got some sort of dysfunctional obsession with me and that's why you post whack like this over and over again

 

[ChipNCharge]

Isn't the swingweight of the Pure Drive pretty high for it to have been designed for occasional weekend 3.0 females?

 

[NoBadMojo]

Isn't the swingweight of the Pure Drive pretty high for it to have been designed for occasional weekend 3.0 females?

It is too high for a female 3.0. It also is too hard for a 3.0 femakle to spin and the sweetzone is too small for that type of player. comfort is of course another issue. ironic that the people who this racquet is designed for never really use it to any degree

It wasnt Roddick who launched the PureDrive sales altho he was responsible in part for the huge growth. Moya used a Soft drive and no woofer grommets. Also since Moya used this racquet when he had success on tour there was nothing else racquetwise effecting his success. Corretja is another matter

My opinion is that Alex Corretja was most responsible for the huge 'success' of the Pure Drive. Here's a guy who in the twilight of his career who had no weapons other than a good heart and speed who suddenly grew a serve and a forehand after switching to the PD. Other pros of course notice this stuff, and there began the switch to the Pure Drive. We obviously know that people like to buy what they think the pros are using as evidenced by sales of the 'Federer' frame, so there you have it. Also the PureDrive wouldnt have worked on tour w.o the poly strings, so you have a number of freakish coincidences that resulted in a very successful product. people who have really been intrically envolved in the business world understand that success isnt always tied to brilliance

 

[drakulie]

Hey Darkula..i guess you dont understand that the two parts of your query are in no way related to one another and that most people know that you've got some sort of dysfunctional obsession with me and that's why you post whack like this over and over again

You didn't answer my question. What group of players do you think Volkl markets towards to sell frames to?

 

[10isDad]

My opinion is that Alex Corretja was most responsible for the huge 'success' of the Pure Drive.

No offense, but in my opinion the success of the Pure Drive is due to Babolat virtually giving them away to colleges and juniors when they were first trying to publicize the stick. They marketed well by giving out lots of free product...

Do I have proof - no. What I have had is two D1 coaches, a DIII coach and 3 junior college coaches tell me that Babolat blanketed the college ranks w/ free or extemely discounted frames back about 8 years ago...