Re-training Muscle Memory
- Thread starter CFreeborn
- Start date
After 20+ years of squash since leaving school I've found it very hard to get back my tennis strokes from my teenage years.
Even after over a year back at tennis my backhand is still truly awful. I can slice and drop perfectly but full swing top spin strokes are almost impossible to get right.
Even after over a year back at tennis my backhand is still truly awful. I can slice and drop perfectly but full swing top spin strokes are almost impossible to get right.
Complicating it for me was that my "formative years" were spent on clay in the east, wood rackets and primarily a continental grip. The transition to modern equipment, Eastern grips and hard courts has been a constant struggle. On the plus side my early coaching emphasized a strong BH, so that's my most solid stroke. Slices and volleys are old hat too. It's just the dang topspin FH that's giving me fits.
-C
-C
I played my best in the mid '70's, like you. S/V, mostly eastern forehand grip, and 2hbh for me.
Around 2007, I decided my eastern forehand wasn't cutting it against the juniiors I often end up playing with, the ball bouncing high to both sides. I slice my backhands, taking them late out to the side, skidding them low over the net to deep NML, bouncing maybe knee high at the highest.
But the forehand was the problem, so I switched to a strong SW grip, almost full W. Now, I hardly ever hit too deep, unless it's a mishit or mistake. Most of my errors are short balls, but still go over the net.
Practice is the only cure. Aim 3' above the net instead of 18", and add more spin, less ball speed, until a winner is needed. LOOSE grip for rally balls, tight grip for winner attempts.
Around 2007, I decided my eastern forehand wasn't cutting it against the juniiors I often end up playing with, the ball bouncing high to both sides. I slice my backhands, taking them late out to the side, skidding them low over the net to deep NML, bouncing maybe knee high at the highest.
But the forehand was the problem, so I switched to a strong SW grip, almost full W. Now, I hardly ever hit too deep, unless it's a mishit or mistake. Most of my errors are short balls, but still go over the net.
Practice is the only cure. Aim 3' above the net instead of 18", and add more spin, less ball speed, until a winner is needed. LOOSE grip for rally balls, tight grip for winner attempts.
fuzz nation
G.O.A.T.
Tell me about it - I'm 47 and grew up using the mighty continental grip all day on grass courts. My overhaul has been a long process and although I've gone to different strokes for several years now, I still like to consider myself a work in progress.
The ability to slice effectively and hit sharp volleys will never get old in my humble opinion, but I think that the reality of needing a strong baseline game catches up with all us net-crashers at some point. Got to be able to hang around until that short ball comes along, right?
If you have any hitting partners available, you'll need to put in some time on the practice grinder and take a leap of faith with that topspin stroke. The setup, timing, contact point, and follow through will all need time to take shape as new habits. Time and repetition, but smart, productive practice. If you haven't taken any solid instruction lately, it might make the transition a lot less painful if you get a decent teacher to get you going in the right direction.
How long before you start to trust the shot and use it in action? Depends on your practice schedule I'd say. You might cover a lot of ground in only a month or month and a half. If it's a hot mess at first, take that as an encouraging sign. It means that things are changing and a new forehand is coming to town!
newpball
Legend
I agree, although I would multiply that by 5 to get started.By hitting about 5000 correct repetitions! Simple really!
The wall is your friend, you can do about 1500 shots in an hour, try to match that with a partner across the net on a court!
So seven days a week one hour at the wall will put you over 10,000 shots.
A couple of months of training should get a you a perfect second nature shot!
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I'm going through a forehand slump right now, and it's because my stance has become too open and I'm pulling off the ball early and lifting my head, leading to many long forehands.
I go through phases where these problems seem corrected for months, and then they creep back in and my forehand consistency drops drastically. It's usually the result of playing only matches with no straight hitting or ball machine sessions. The ball machine is in the garage charging and will be taken out at 6 am tomorrow before work.
Ash_Smith
Legend
I agree, although I would multiply that by 5 to get started.
The wall is your friend, you can do about 1500 shots in an hour, try to match that with a partner across the net on a court!
So seven days a week one hour at the wall will put you over 10,000 shots.
A couple of months of training should get a you a perfect second nature shot!
learning theory shows roughly 5000 repetitions is required to re-learn (over-write) a motor skill, if the OP is really bad then it might take 25,000 repetitions to get 5000 correct ones, but then he/she would be better off not bothering as you cannot control with neural pathways are created, each "bad" rep will also create a connection. Better to practice more deliberately and ensure "correct" form/function to limit the number of incorrect reps.
When learning a brand new motor skill it can take as little as 140-160(ish) repetitions - so best get it right from day dot!
newpball
Legend
Yes that is a good point.
skiracer55
Hall of Fame
What they said...
...additionally, first, you have to dump the old bad habits. Best way to do that is don't play any matches until you get the new stuff wired, because inevitably you'll go back to what you know in a match.
It's also a good idea to understand the mechanics of the change you're making and why it's going to fix things...in your case, airmailing balls into the fence. Just going to a SW grip and a loop forehand isn't going to fix the problem if you don't know the stroke mechanics and why they're going to make your life better. There was also a comment above, which I agree with, that the number of reps with your new forehand isn't as important as doing it right the first time...and every succeeding time...that you hit the ball. You have to be disciplined enough to never go back to the old stuff, even though the new stuff might (will) feel dodgy for a while...
...additionally, first, you have to dump the old bad habits. Best way to do that is don't play any matches until you get the new stuff wired, because inevitably you'll go back to what you know in a match.
It's also a good idea to understand the mechanics of the change you're making and why it's going to fix things...in your case, airmailing balls into the fence. Just going to a SW grip and a loop forehand isn't going to fix the problem if you don't know the stroke mechanics and why they're going to make your life better. There was also a comment above, which I agree with, that the number of reps with your new forehand isn't as important as doing it right the first time...and every succeeding time...that you hit the ball. You have to be disciplined enough to never go back to the old stuff, even though the new stuff might (will) feel dodgy for a while...
It just takes a little time. I learned tennis in Junior high back in 1989 or so and only played with friends for 1 year (Reebok pump shoes FTW!). I was taught traditional grip.
Fast forward to now and I have only played Badminton at competitive level for +10 years. Only been playing tennis for almost 1 year now and it took me about that long to break my badminton habits (right foot forward for all volleys) and picked up a WW forehand with a SW grip! I did a lot of shadow swinging at home (wife is getting sick of it, but it's only for like 20 swings or so at random times of days). Lots of visualizing (even at work). I will sometimes walk down the hall in my office just swinging my arm and visualizing keeping my head still
When on courts just concentrating on the swing and small tweaks. When you find something that worked for you make a good note to remember what you did and try to replicate. If something doesn't work for a few shots in a row relax, clear mind, and go back to basics to hunt for that right combo. You just need to be patient but start out slow.
Fast forward to now and I have only played Badminton at competitive level for +10 years. Only been playing tennis for almost 1 year now and it took me about that long to break my badminton habits (right foot forward for all volleys) and picked up a WW forehand with a SW grip! I did a lot of shadow swinging at home (wife is getting sick of it, but it's only for like 20 swings or so at random times of days). Lots of visualizing (even at work). I will sometimes walk down the hall in my office just swinging my arm and visualizing keeping my head still
When on courts just concentrating on the swing and small tweaks. When you find something that worked for you make a good note to remember what you did and try to replicate. If something doesn't work for a few shots in a row relax, clear mind, and go back to basics to hunt for that right combo. You just need to be patient but start out slow.
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Shadow swinging good, especially if you watch your reflection or shadow, and listen to your swing.
OTOH, you don't need to completely rebuild your forehand. Since you say you are spraying some ball long, just concentrate on either keeping the racketface more closed, or just change your grip SLIGHTLY stronger.
OTOH, you don't need to completely rebuild your forehand. Since you say you are spraying some ball long, just concentrate on either keeping the racketface more closed, or just change your grip SLIGHTLY stronger.
Well, the pictures are worth a thousand words. I was consciously trying to keep racquet face closed on backswing and keep my weight moving forward, head down...guess I've got some work to do there...
Here's video - the first set is against a machine - slo-mo is of a couple of long balls (I give an out call for reference). Then some balls with a pro - just hitting around. Finally a few warm up serves. I'm okay with everything but the forehand.
-C
http://youtu.be/vlGyqccmUgM
Here's video - the first set is against a machine - slo-mo is of a couple of long balls (I give an out call for reference). Then some balls with a pro - just hitting around. Finally a few warm up serves. I'm okay with everything but the forehand.
-C
http://youtu.be/vlGyqccmUgM
pushing_wins
Hall of Fame
Its not that bad. Why change?
Rafaboy
Semi-Pro
Timing on your BH is good.
Timing on your FH is better on the second half than on the first half of the vid. But its still not right.
Try to "find the ball" first, then hit. Youre trying to use one complete flow from back swing to follow through. There should be a hesitation in between, as you "find the ball."
Hope this helps you, i dont like to give it away like this, but i think you deserve it. i can see youve put in a lot of time and work.
Timing on your FH is better on the second half than on the first half of the vid. But its still not right.
Try to "find the ball" first, then hit. Youre trying to use one complete flow from back swing to follow through. There should be a hesitation in between, as you "find the ball."
Hope this helps you, i dont like to give it away like this, but i think you deserve it. i can see youve put in a lot of time and work.
Ash_Smith
Legend
^^^"You're trying to use one complete flow from back swing to follow through. There should be a hesitation in between, as you "find the ball."
Where is the hesitation in these...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mZaez8jgAh8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y762f6LZvYI
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PLRLP8g7-zY
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M5c7K8an7JI
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e73vn7e2Ivw
Where is the hesitation in these...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mZaez8jgAh8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y762f6LZvYI
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PLRLP8g7-zY
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M5c7K8an7JI
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e73vn7e2Ivw
Many thanks for the insight. I've had coaching that encouraged me to "run - plant - **** - swing". 4 separate motions, rather than one continuos running, swinging motion. I seem to need reminding... again....
I've got unusually long reach for my height (6'4 tall - 6'6" armspan), so that has always allowed me to be a bit lazier on my footwork. As I get older (56) I can't rely on that as much, so the mechanics are more and more important. Growing up in the 70's my heroes were Stan Smith and Arthur Ashe, both very elegant smooth hitters, rather than the scrappers like Rod Laver (all of whom I saw play in their day). Federer would be who I most identify with of todays pros.
Thanks again - lots to work with on the videos.
-C
I've got unusually long reach for my height (6'4 tall - 6'6" armspan), so that has always allowed me to be a bit lazier on my footwork. As I get older (56) I can't rely on that as much, so the mechanics are more and more important. Growing up in the 70's my heroes were Stan Smith and Arthur Ashe, both very elegant smooth hitters, rather than the scrappers like Rod Laver (all of whom I saw play in their day). Federer would be who I most identify with of todays pros.
Thanks again - lots to work with on the videos.
-C
Rooster?
That's the idea....
I meant to type censor too - shouldn't try to type before coffee....
