RG: Wawrinka 15 Or Soderling/ Del Potro 09

[abmk]

Yeah I know it would make you wet to believe that, but he was moving like hot **** on a platter that day. It still took a great performance to beat him, yes, but the last 2 sets in particular you could see it. It's still 5x more meaningful than Ultron's win though

Yeah, points like the one starting at 2:54 really show he ****ty nadal's movement was :
the one at 10:05
the one at 17:00
the one at 18:27
the on at at 19:15
the one at 20:12

he was moving perfectly fine in that match. nadal's shortcomings in that match was hitting it a bit too short and being passive ..not tendonities ...

I saw the match live ( unlike you ). I saw it once more in its entirety. and just saw the highlights . Nothing whatsoever that suggests that nadal was injured.

He didn't even take an MTO - which he would've if he was injured ( hell, he did when he wasn't even injured - see the petzschener match in wimbledon 10 )

 

[NatF]

Djokovic was never in danger of winning that match IMO, despite it going 5. It was something similar to the Haas-Federer R16 4 setter at the Australian Open. Also it is obvious Del Potro is a better clay courter than Murray. He doesnt even have a Masters final on the surface. Murray now has several RG semis, a Masters title, etc.. I know Del Potro only had a few years of good tennis, and about 1 year of true peak tennis but still. Most of all though Djokovic is just an awful match up for DP. DP far prefers playing Fedal to Djokovic, and Djokovic likes playing DP (even so called peak DP) the most of all the top players he could face. Not that Murray is a nightmare for Djokovic, but he is more competitive generally than DP is (in fact approximate to their relative abilities he does quite well against him career wise).

Murray is a terribly overrated clay courter. Del Potro in form is much more dangerous despite lacking the masters (which was won over the poorest Nadal on clay of the last decade). Djokovic was never in danger but the fact he dropped the lead like he did really speaks of his level. I would never claim the AO 2006 (despite some awesome sets of tennis) was one of Federer's highest level slams. Djokovic might enjoy playing Del Potro generally more than Murray sure, but on clay? Del Potro's heavier shots are certainly a lot tougher to handle on clay than Murray's relatively weaker flatter shots. Just looking at the winner to error differentials should give at least some indication of the levels of play - even if it's not fool proof. Del Potro hit 55 winners and 40 errors, Murray 36 and 48. I don't think Djokovic defends that much better on clay than Primerer for Murray's level to be better than Del Potro's.

 

[MichaelNadal]

Yeah, points like the one starting at 2:54 really show he ****ty nadal's movement was :
. Nothing whatsoever that suggests that nadal was injured.

He didn't even take an MTO - which he would've if he was injured ( hell, he did when he wasn't even injured - see the petzschener match in wimbledon 10 )

Ok dear.

 

[abmk]

When I compared Del Potro with Stan I set the bar very high,because we all know how damn good Stan was that day. Watching highlights of the first 2 sets for the sake of the argument and I realized how much Fed helped Del Potro with his holds.Weak cheaped return that landed short a lot of times. Really I wasn't that impressed seeing the highlights a second time.Some stats of the 09 SF would help me at this point,otherwise I find no reason to continue the debate,we won't ever agree on it.

that was in major part because delpo was serving from a tree - less of a help than djokovic's passiveness vs stan.

Federer had 50 W to 29 UEs in that match
Del potro had 55 W to 40 UEs

Stan was 60 W to 45 W
Djokovic was 30 W to 41 UEs

Take the forced errors into count as well ..statistically fed-delpo was clearly better

 

[abmk]

Ok dear.

it'd be a bit of common sense to actually watch the points mentioned/consider what was mentioned in the entire post and reply rather than BS like this.

 

[MichaelNadal]

it'd be a bit of common sense to actually watch the points mentioned/consider what was mentioned in the entire post and reply rather than BS like this.

I'd rather keep listening to music and chilling on my day off than go back and forth with someone that really cares about this right now tbh.

 

[Chanwan]

I would have to think about it all some. Soderling round of 16 vs Nadal was probably the best match/performance of all but he didnt play at that level the entire event, and certainly was nowhere near it the match that really mattered (the final).

The sad thing is it is a foregone conclusion all Federer fans will say Soderling/Del Potro and all Djokovic fans wiill say Wawrinka since people are always thinking how such and such connects with their own agendas as stupid as that is.

If I understood OP correctly, we're meant to judge it on their best match in the tournament - i.e. Delpo semi, Sod 4th round and Wawa final (QF was good too, but Novak, however passive, was still better than Fed in the QF).

 

[abmk]

I'd rather keep listening to music and chilling on my day off than go back and forth with someone that really cares about this right now tbh.

this is what I read : I don't care about the reality, but I am just going to oppose whatever someone else said : someone who actually watched the match twice , watched the highlights, actually highlighted the points which showed nadal's movement being great - just because I can do that ,, just because I don't want to deal with the reality that a healthy nadal lost at RG.

 

[MichaelNadal]

this is what I read : I don't care about the reality, but I am just going to oppose whatever someone else said : someone who actually watched the match twice , watched the highlights, actually highlighted the points which showed nadal's movement being great - just because I can do that ,, just because I don't want to deal with the reality that a healthy nadal lost at RG.

I don't care if you watched the match 5 minutes ago, if you think Nadal was moving well, I know everything I need to know. Oh, and I'm the last person here who makes excuses for Nadal's losses, 95% of the time when he gets beaten, it's because he was outplayed, I've been a fan for too long to not be able to take the good with the bad.

 

[TheMusicLover]

If I understood OP correctly, we're meant to judge it on their best match in the tournament - i.e. Delpo semi, Sod 4th round and Wawa final (QF was good too, but Novak, however passive, was still better than Fed in the QF).

Exactly. Regardless of which opponent was involved, and in what form said opponent actually was.
And that's also the reason why I voted for Wawrinka. His showing against Djok in the RG 2015 final was just immaculate.

 

[MichaelNadal]

Exactly. Regardless of which opponent was involved, and in what form said opponent actually was.
And that's also the reason why I voted for Wawrinka. His showing against Djok in the RG 2015 final was just immaculate.

Exactly, he had no room for error at all and had to play at an insane level mentally and physically to win that match. People have played better than Soderling in 09 against Rafa at the FO and lost.

 

[abmk]

I don't care if you watched the match 5 minutes ago, if you think Nadal was moving well, I know everything I need to know. Oh, and I'm the last person here who makes excuses for Nadal's losses, 95% of the time when he gets beaten, it's because he was outplayed, I've been a fan for too long to not be able to take the good with the bad.

I never said that you did this with the other matches , did I ? You are far better than a lot of other Nadal fans in that regard.

But that's not true with respect to the RG 09 match.
and yes, nadal was moving well in that match . The proof is there in the match highlights - I even pinpointed the points that showcased that ; its there in the full match video. If you don't want to explore it , that's your problem, not mine.

 

[abmk]

Exactly, he had no room for error at all and had to play at an insane level mentally and physically to win that match. People have played better than Soderling in 09 against Rafa at the FO and lost.

Nope, not even one performance vs rafa comes close to Soderling's vs rafa at RG , not one.

 

[MichaelNadal]

Nope, not even one performance vs rafa comes close to Soderling's vs rafa at RG , not one.

 

[abmk]

Exactly. Regardless of which opponent was involved, and in what form said opponent actually was.
And that's also the reason why I voted for Wawrinka. His showing against Djok in the RG 2015 final was just immaculate.

and soderling's vs rafa in RG 09 4R wasn't immaculate ?

 

[Deleted member 307496]

 

[NatF]

Exactly, he had no room for error at all and had to play at an insane level mentally and physically to win that match. People have played better than Soderling in 09 against Rafa at the FO and lost.

Can't agree with this at all. Who? Certainly not Federer or Djokovic.

 

[abmk]

why the hell do you think I'd care about a silly WWE GIF ?

Let see those list of matches with better performances, shall we ?

Would you like to start with djokovic of RG 13 SF ? umm, the one with 54 W to 75 UEs ?

 

[TheMusicLover]

and soderling's vs rafa in RG 09 4R wasn't immaculate ?

It was very, very good, yes. But in terms of pure level of TENNIS, Wawa was even better. Cracking winners left-right & center.
Sorry, that's just my opinion, and it's as valid as yours is.

 

[MichaelNadal]

why the hell do you think I'd care about a silly WWE GIF ?

Let see those list of matches with better performances, shall we ?

Would you like to start with djokovic of RG 13 SF ? umm, the one with 54 W to 75 UEs ?

Actually, nobody is thinking about the RG 2013 semi, and I'm not going to post anything, you can feel free to think you've "won", I'm not the Order, and I'm not spending anymore time when we have different opinions and only one of us can seem to handle it.

It was very, very good, yes. But in terms of pure level of TENNIS, Wawa was even better. Cracking winners left-right & center.
Sorry, that's just my opinion, and it's as valid as yours is.

.

Don't waste your time man, it's his whole life.

 

[abmk]

It was very, very good, yes. But in terms of pure level of TENNIS, Wawa was even better. Cracking winners left-right & center.
Sorry, that's just my opinion, and it's as valid as yours is.

Put it above soderling's all you want, that's your opinion ( though I strongly disagree ) . But its ridiculous to say that soderling's and delpo's don't even come close.

Soderling and del potro were cracking winners, left, right and center , just as well, if not better.

delpo had 55 winners, soderling had 61 winners, stan had 60 winners.

 

[abmk]

Actually, nobody is thinking about the RG 2013 semi, and I'm not going to post anything, you can feel free to think you've "won", I'm not the Order, and I'm not spending anymore time when we have different opinions and only one of us can seem to handle it.

then which match ? You can't think of any which is why you are running away.

Actually, you are the one not able to handle the opinion that rafa wasn't injured in RG 09 - which is why you are avoiding watching the highlights/full match.

.

Don't waste your time man, it's his whole life.

uhh, maybe it'd pay to actually wait and see what I post before BSing.

 

[MichaelNadal]

then which match ? You can't think of any which is why you are running away.

Actually, you are the one not able to handle the opinion that rafa wasn't injured in RG 09 - which is why you are avoiding watching the highlights/full match.

.


uhh, maybe it'd pay to actually wait and see what I post before BSing.

Or maybe I couldn't care any less about watching Nadal highlights right now? Especially for the sake of arguing with someone that is going to have the same stance in 10 years as he does now and so will I. I'm alot more excited about finally being able to eat a good dinner tonight than I am about trying to change your mind.

 

[abmk]

Or maybe I couldn't care any less about watching Nadal highlights right now? Especially for the sake of arguing with someone that is going to have the same stance in 10 years as he does now and so will I. I'm alot more excited about finally being able to eat a good dinner tonight than I am about trying to change your mind.

Or you are just scared at the possibility that actually watching the match/highlights will force you to see the reality. Did I ask you to watch it straight-away ? Watch it at your leisure, if you can !

Keeping all that aside, it wouldn't take more than 3-4 mins to list out all the matches of players who played better vs rafa at RG, would it ? Lets have that then.

 

[TMF]

I would say Soderling and Del Potro in 09. Wawrinka was awesome too but I give it to Del Potro and Soderling by a small margin. How Federer survived Del Potro that day I dont know.

Agree. And had Del Potro managed to pull out that win against Federer, he could have been the 2009 RG champion. Del Potro high level of playing wasn't a fluke, because he back it up by winning the USO that same year.

 

[Anaconda]

I must say, MichaelNadal's trolling abilities in this thread have been something to admire. ABMK is going about Nadal's loss in the wrong way.



Nadal looked like was healthy. I don't believe Nadal's 'tendonitis' was as bad as posters make it out to be, or the media made it out to be. I think Nadal didn't play his best, but he was moving fine in that match. Soderling played so well that day I doubt any other player could make it go as far as Nadal did; And Nadal never really looked out of it until the match was truly over.


The reason Nadal lost was because the court played very quick that year and Soderling was on a mad one. I think Nadal can blame the surface for the loss, but not injury. The 2010 is not a match you can say proves Nadal was injured either, because Soderling wasn't at his best. However, the only reason Nadal ever won Wimbledon was because they slowed the grass down, swings and roundabouts!




Everyone else in this thread is talking crap.

 

[Djokovic2011]

Yeah I know it would make you wet to believe that, but he was moving like hot **** on a platter that day. It still took a great performance to beat him, yes, but the last 2 sets in particular you could see it. It's still 5x more meaningful than Ultron's win though

Out of interest mate, would you consider Nadal's performance in the 2013 RG semi to be better than his perf against Soderling in '09? I watched the highlights of both matches a couple of months ago and couldn't help but think that his shots had greater depth and his movement was more explosive in his match against Novak, hence all the crazy winners in the 5th set.

 

[mattosgrant]

Out of interest mate, would you consider Nadal's performance in the 2013 RG semi to be better than his perf against Soderling in '09?

You didnt ask me but I would say yes, considerably better. He even hit 22 winners in a set in that 2013 match, which is well beyond his level in that 2009 Soderling match, even factoring in how well Soderling was hitting. He was definitely moving better too (I am not interested in a long injury discussion, but his movement was definitely sharper in the 2013 match, despite that in general he was probably slower at that point of his career).

 

[Deleted member 77403]

Agree. And had Del Potro managed to pull out that win against Federer, he could have been the 2009 RG champion. Del Potro high level of playing wasn't a fluke, because he back it up by winning the USO that same year.

That match between Federer and Del Potro was a war, I really thought Del Potro was going to deny Federer that year.

 

[mattosgrant]

That match between Federer and Del Potro was a war, I really thought Del Potro was going to deny Federer that year.

It would have been interesting had he stayed healthy and kept developing/improving. I have already noted he prefers playing Fedal to Djokovic, so he might have been able to challenge Nadal at RG as much or more than Novak if he continued his ascent. It would be hard for him to win the title, as beating a truly peak Djokovic at RG from 2011-later would be hard for him even if he beat Nadal, but he might have played spoiler and taken Nadal out for the Djoker once or twice.

It would also be interesting how people would view the best player of 2009 had Del Potro won that French and still won the U.S Open. He would be the only guy with 2 slams, but his ranking points would probably be nowhere near #1 still (which now might be Nadal, or might still be Federer), and he would have no other significant titles.

 

[mattosgrant]

Can't agree with this at all. Who? Certainly not Federer or Djokovic.

Federer was really good in the 2005 and 2007 matches against Nadal. Not sure if better than Soderling in 2009, but probably close to the same level, just not the type of game as likely to beat Nadal on clay as Soderling though.

Djokovic in the 2008 match was really good, probably his best performance vs Nadal there as hilarious as that is. I did overall like his performance in the 2013 semi, but I know we are always going to be apart on that one. I dont think Soderling of even the R16 match vs Nadal at RG 2009 would easily beat the Djokovic of the 2013 RG semis though at all, even with the lapses in some of his play (he might beat him but it would be really tough if he did, and I would still guess on Djokovic winning if held at gunpoint although largely due to Djokovic's ability to frusterate huge hitters even better than Nadal moreso than pure level).

 

[MichaelNadal]

Out of interest mate, would you consider Nadal's performance in the 2013 RG semi to be better than his perf against Soderling in '09? I watched the highlights of both matches a couple of months ago and couldn't help but think that his shots had greater depth and his movement was more explosive in his match against Novak, hence all the crazy winners in the 5th set.

Absolutely, by leaps and bounds.

 

[Djokovic2011]

Absolutely, by leaps and bounds.

Just six more points. SIX MORE POINTS!!!!!

 

[NoleFam]

Federer was really good in the 2005 and 2007 matches against Nadal. Not sure if better than Soderling in 2009, but probably close to the same level, just not the type of game as likely to beat Nadal on clay as Soderling though.

Djokovic in the 2008 match was really good, probably his best performance vs Nadal there as hilarious as that is. I did overall like his performance in the 2013 semi, but I know we are always going to be apart on that one. I dont think Soderling of even the R16 match vs Nadal at RG 2009 would easily beat the Djokovic of the 2013 RG semis though at all, even with the lapses in some of his play (he might beat him but it would be really tough if he did, and I would still guess on Djokovic winning if held at gunpoint although largely due to Djokovic's ability to frusterate huge hitters even better than Nadal moreso than pure level).

It was the perfect storm for Soderling to beat Nadal. Muggy, heavy conditions for a big hitter to unleash. Nadal doesn't like those types of conditions on clay but instead enjoys it hot, sunny and dry so his top spin will cause the ball to jump off the court. His spin wasn't as much of a factor for Soderling who just bossed him around. Had it been sunny and dry, it would have been an entirely different match. If you remember, it was those types of conditions when Djokovic ran off like 8 games in a row in the 2012 Final before they postponed the match.

 

[Elessar]

Of course, we will never know, and I am sure we all have our biases. Most Djokovic's fan will choose Wawrinka, Fed's fans DelPo or Soderling, not sure about Nadal's fans (depends on who they dislike more, Djokovic or Fed, or their fanbases).

I think that 2015 Wawrinka played out of his mind. His shot making was out of this world. But not only shot making. He covered the court exceptionally well. Only Soderling, in his match against Rafa, played at an arguably higher level than Wawa did last year. But still, I give Wawa the edge over 2009 Soderling because, even though Soderling managed to pull the upset of all upsets, Rafa did not move at his best which provided Soderling with just enough space to hit through Rafa.

However, styles make fights. Just because 2015 Wawa beat Novak, doesn't automatically mean he would have beaten 2009 Fed for instance. Fed presents a totally different challenge. His variety could be the difference in this hypothetical match up, and we would be saying different things now. On the other hand, Djokovic matches up really well with Del Potro. Just because Murray pushed Djokovic to 5 and Wawa beat him, doesn't mean that Novak would not be able to beat 2009 Del Potro, or 2009 Soderling. That's a different match up, with entirely different dynamics.

 

[mattosgrant]

It was the perfect storm for Soderling to beat Nadal. Muggy, heavy conditions for a big hitter to unleash. Nadal doesn't like those types of conditions on clay but instead enjoys it hot, sunny and dry so his top spin will cause the ball to jump off the court. His spin wasn't as much of a factor for Soderling who just bossed him around. Had it been sunny and dry, it would have been an entirely different match. If you remember, it was those types of conditions when Djokovic ran off like 8 games in a row in the 2012 Final before they postponed the match.

Yeah and if even Djokovic (I say even just thinking of that style of play) can hit right through Nadal in those conditions, of course Soderling one of the hugest hitters of the last 20 years can.

 

[mattosgrant]

Of course, we will never know, and I am sure we all have our biases. Most Djokovic's fan will choose Wawrinka, Fed's fans DelPo or Soderling, not sure about Nadal's fans (depends on who they dislike more, Djokovic or Fed, or their fanbases).

I think that 2015 Wawrinka played out of his mind. His shot making was out of this world. But not only shot making. He covered the court exceptionally well. Only Soderling, in his match against Rafa, played at an arguably higher level than Wawa did last year. But still, I give Wawa the edge over 2009 Soderling because, even though Soderling managed to pull the upset of all upsets, Rafa did not move at his best which provided Soderling with just enough space to hit through Rafa.

However, styles make fights. Just because 2015 Wawa beat Novak, doesn't automatically mean he would have beaten 2009 Fed for instance. Fed presents a totally different challenge. His variety could be the difference in this hypothetical match up, and we would be saying different things now. On the other hand, Djokovic matches up really well with Del Potro. Just because Murray pushed Djokovic to 5 and Wawa beat him, doesn't mean that Novak would not be able to beat 2009 Del Potro, or 2009 Soderling. That's a different match up, with entirely different dynamics.

Good post, and to your first sentence which is absolutely true, I suspect most Nadal fans would choose Soderling for the simple reason he beat Nadal (even if most put the loss down to injury, they will want to say it took an injury and Soderling playing the highest level of clay tennis outside Nadal of the last 40 years or something to beat him).

 

[Djokovic2011]

Of course, we will never know, and I am sure we all have our biases. Most Djokovic's fan will choose Wawrinka, Fed's fans DelPo or Soderling, not sure about Nadal's fans (depends on who they dislike more, Djokovic or Fed, or their fanbases).

I think that 2015 Wawrinka played out of his mind. His shot making was out of this world. But not only shot making. He covered the court exceptionally well. Only Soderling, in his match against Rafa, played at an arguably higher level than Wawa did last year. But still, I give Wawa the edge over 2009 Soderling because, even though Soderling managed to pull the upset of all upsets, Rafa did not move at his best which provided Soderling with just enough space to hit through Rafa.

However, styles make fights. Just because 2015 Wawa beat Novak, doesn't automatically mean he would have beaten 2009 Fed for instance. Fed presents a totally different challenge. His variety could be the difference in this hypothetical match up, and we would be saying different things now. On the other hand, Djokovic matches up really well with Del Potro. Just because Murray pushed Djokovic to 5 and Wawa beat him, doesn't mean that Novak would not be able to beat 2009 Del Potro, or 2009 Soderling. That's a different match up, with entirely different dynamics.

I don't know about everyone else but I'm seeing nothing but a perfect post right here. Very well said Elessar.

 

[NoleFam]

Yeah and if even Djokovic (I say even just thinking of that style of play) can hit right through Nadal in those conditions, of course Soderling one of the hugest hitters of the last 20 years can.

Oh yes definitely. Cool, muggy conditions are Nadal's kryptonite on clay. It's insanely hard and almost impossible to beat him in a best of 5 on clay in sunny, dry conditions, but cool, muggy and heavy, you have a hell of a shot.