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Sam Groth 163mph serve – Ball toss analysis
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WildVolley
Legend
That is a Groth serve, but I have my doubts that it is the video of the 163mph serve.
The first video I saw of that match claimed to show the 163mph serve but was clearly a second serve. The other video I've seen claims to be of the 163mph serve, but it is clearly an ace hit on match point for Groth's opponent if you look at the video. I've never heard the claim that Groth's fastest serve came while he was down match point.
I doubt this is video of the reputed fastest serve.
The first video I saw of that match claimed to show the 163mph serve but was clearly a second serve. The other video I've seen claims to be of the 163mph serve, but it is clearly an ace hit on match point for Groth's opponent if you look at the video. I've never heard the claim that Groth's fastest serve came while he was down match point.
I doubt this is video of the reputed fastest serve.
This is original video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uqmy9oxEJig, but let’s talk about toss with bent elbow.
SystemicAnomaly
Bionic Poster
I would absolutely not use this video or analysis of Groth's toss as a justification for bending the elbow. It is not productive to emulate Groth's tossing idiosyncrasy. MOST servers would do best to keep the arm elbow and wrist straight and toss primarily from the shoulder. It does not serve the interest of most players to adopt an elbow flexion during the toss.
WildVolley
Legend
This is original video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uqmy9oxEJig, but let’s talk about toss with bent elbow.
I completely agree with you that Groth tosses with a bent elbow.
I'm not a big fan of his tossing technique. He sort of flicks the ball up with a bent elbow and hits it. He has to stop the swing sometimes because he flicks the ball up.
However, he has a low toss, so he probably has pretty good placement.
The bent elbow toss allows moving a ball (around ball release) along straight line and that could stabilize variable parameters of ball trajectory!!!
gut wax
Hall of Fame
It also keeps him from bashing tossing hand.
WildVolley
Legend
Could be. A juggling toss is made with an arm bent closer to 90-degrees and the ball can be thrown very high with precision. Though it is a fundamentally different motion than a serve toss because the goal isn't to raise the arm up that high.
Groth tends to almost flick the ball a bit. I'm thinking of the second toss in this video.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iC6BvMSpeOM
Chas Tennis
G.O.A.T.
Meet Gerald Paterson
The first server is Gerald Paterson, quality slow motion included.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9QL1sglyouU
This is one of the clearest dislplays of internal shoulder rotation, and from 1919!. The toss does not look very high. ?
Gerald, an Aussie, was known as the "Human Catapult" because of his serve. He overcame a backhand weakness to win Wimbledon singles and doubles titles.
I am searching for Rosco Tanner in slow motion who has one of the lowest tosses. The unusual low toss is about the only technical thing he mentions in his autobiography, Double Fault.
The first server is Gerald Paterson, quality slow motion included.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9QL1sglyouU
This is one of the clearest dislplays of internal shoulder rotation, and from 1919!. The toss does not look very high. ?
Gerald, an Aussie, was known as the "Human Catapult" because of his serve. He overcame a backhand weakness to win Wimbledon singles and doubles titles.
I am searching for Rosco Tanner in slow motion who has one of the lowest tosses. The unusual low toss is about the only technical thing he mentions in his autobiography, Double Fault.
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Chas Tennis
G.O.A.T.
Impacting a very low toss gives much less time from release to impact. I think that Tanner may have said(?) that a low toss forces quick motion.
Maybe the bent elbow on the toss is to keep it closer and more upward for the very low toss. Would the trajectory be more difficult for a very low toss if the arm were straight? Or maybe he can get his tossing arm back down quicker if his upper arm is lower at the release?
Maybe it is just an arbitrary individual choice away from the more required ISR action in all high level serves, no essential function. ?
Maybe the bent elbow on the toss is to keep it closer and more upward for the very low toss. Would the trajectory be more difficult for a very low toss if the arm were straight? Or maybe he can get his tossing arm back down quicker if his upper arm is lower at the release?
Maybe it is just an arbitrary individual choice away from the more required ISR action in all high level serves, no essential function. ?
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Pancho Gonzalez also uses bent elbow toss technique!!!
:shock: See video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tyhFo3hvGPI
v-verb
Hall of Fame
This. He outserved Raonic in the AO even tho Raonic won
Chas Tennis
G.O.A.T.
Pancho Gonzalez also uses bent elbow toss technique!!!
See video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tyhFo3hvGPI
One issue with all players before about 1962 (or '64?) is that there was a rule change. Before that time the server had to keep one foot on the ground when serving. That affected the leg thrust and I guess how far they could jump into the court.
Good analysis provided in a video
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Eaku6v8jZ88
It is possible that it is a bit different serve from couple different reasons.
Anyway I like the analysis
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Eaku6v8jZ88
It is possible that it is a bit different serve from couple different reasons.
Anyway I like the analysis
If you rotate straight arm in tilted plane, you inevitably, at every particular moment, change angles ϕ and ϴ.
With bent elbow you can move the ball along straight line, thus ϕ = const and ϴ = const. So, with bent elbow you have just one variable – ball’s speed and consequently much more reliable toss!!!
Chas Tennis
G.O.A.T.
Is there a normal toss for a high level server?
Of the high level servers what percent would your think have
1) elbow bent at release?
2) arm straight and about parallel to the 'baseline', goes straight up? Does not sound correct for serves directed to both sides of the court. Ball trajectories are more important, not 'baseline'.
3) arm straight and angled into the court, goes straight up?
4) don't throw straight up but have an upward incline,
5) or curved arm path?
6) other
In toss height alone there is a large difference. I believe height has a big effect on the trophy position. Some start, pause and spend time in the trophy position and others just move on through the trophy position.
Wawrinka, Sharapova, B. Becker, others start and/or wait at the trophy position. Tennis Balla did too. Some of these players have high tosses.
A somewhat higher percentage of high level servers (based on my very small sample) keep moving through the trophy position, it is only a momentary position, just like every other position along the way.
An interesting and easy video study that does not require high speed video, toss height vs time in trophy position. I'll bet that Groth does not pause in the trophy position!
Somewhat more servers keep moving through the trophy position. %? If you want to toss very low does a bent elbow or some other toss work better?
Of the high level servers what percent would your think have
1) elbow bent at release?
2) arm straight and about parallel to the 'baseline', goes straight up? Does not sound correct for serves directed to both sides of the court. Ball trajectories are more important, not 'baseline'.
3) arm straight and angled into the court, goes straight up?
4) don't throw straight up but have an upward incline,
5) or curved arm path?
6) other
In toss height alone there is a large difference. I believe height has a big effect on the trophy position. Some start, pause and spend time in the trophy position and others just move on through the trophy position.
Wawrinka, Sharapova, B. Becker, others start and/or wait at the trophy position. Tennis Balla did too. Some of these players have high tosses.
A somewhat higher percentage of high level servers (based on my very small sample) keep moving through the trophy position, it is only a momentary position, just like every other position along the way.
An interesting and easy video study that does not require high speed video, toss height vs time in trophy position. I'll bet that Groth does not pause in the trophy position!
Somewhat more servers keep moving through the trophy position. %? If you want to toss very low does a bent elbow or some other toss work better?
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Toly, I was looking at groh's serves yesterday and noticed the bent elbow toss. I didn't really think too much about it, but I wonder if you don't have a point. The thing that occurs to me is he is tossing the ball more or less in front of his left shoulder. To do that without the ball arcing in the air, you either have to use a bent arm or point the toss arm more toward the net, like Roddick did. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a2XJmOo96jI
OMG, it is perfect video, thanks.
What is the “ball arcing in the air”?
Once again, the ball’s flying trajectory is defined by ball’s velocity (vector) at the moment of its release. It doesn’t matter what you did before. The bent elbow technique allows stabilization of direction of the ball and you can easily vary the direction.
In basketball throwing, dart throwing, and so on they also use this approach. They practically never use straight arm. So, why tennis servers should utilize straight arm??? Who can explain that???
:twisted:
SystemicAnomaly
Bionic Poster
The bending of the elbow by Pancho G is very mild. This can be seen in slow motion video. However, when viewing his serve at normal speed, the bend is so mild that it is difficult to detect.
Non-elite players who bend the elbow on the toss usually have considerable difficulty controlling the tossing -- too many moving parts. Not a good idea to encourage players to bend the wrist or elbow. Not aware of any coach worth his/her salt advocating a wrist or elbow flexion.
Perhaps I am not understanding what you are saying here. The ball should not be moving along a straight line. The ball toss follows a parabolic curve. This does not require a bent elbow for stability.
Non-elite players who bend the elbow on the toss usually have considerable difficulty controlling the tossing -- too many moving parts. Not a good idea to encourage players to bend the wrist or elbow. Not aware of any coach worth his/her salt advocating a wrist or elbow flexion.
Perhaps I am not understanding what you are saying here. The ball should not be moving along a straight line. The ball toss follows a parabolic curve. This does not require a bent elbow for stability.
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SystemicAnomaly
Bionic Poster
^ We can clearly see that the ball moves in an arc not straight up. Federer's toss is a bit lower and seems to have a wider arc than Sampras's.
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You can move your hand along straight line before ball’s release and this is very important for stabilization of a parabolic curve after release.
In billiards they called straight linear stroke as “piston stroke”.
A "piston stroke" is one where you coordinate motions of the elbow, shoulder, and wrist to keep the cue tip moving in a straight line during the entire stroke (just like a piston in the cylinder of an internal-combustion engine). :twisted:
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WildVolley
Legend
You could just study the tossing technique of the world's most consistent numbers juggler. I suggest to skip to see at about 3 minutes to see the technique for this world record run with 7 balls.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GoZJET-mX68
So it is definitely possible to toss accurately with a bent arm. Though a juggling toss is different from a serve toss in that you have to prepare quickly for the next catch.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GoZJET-mX68
So it is definitely possible to toss accurately with a bent arm. Though a juggling toss is different from a serve toss in that you have to prepare quickly for the next catch.
There are also no straight arms. It looks like all balls are flying in the same vertical plain. Unbelievable!!!
:shock:
WildVolley
Legend
There are also no straight arms. It looks like all balls are flying in the same vertical plain. Unbelievable!!!
Obviously, it isn't necessary to toss with a straight arm. Top jugglers toss more accurately than some tennis professionals even though they are juggling many balls at the same time.
I've found that the advice to toss with a straight arm isn't useless, though, because it keeps some tennis players from flicking the ball with the wrist, which is where a lot of tennis tosses go wrong.
SystemicAnomaly
Bionic Poster
Agreed. I've had MANY students who had very inconsistent tosses because they would flick the wrist or flex the elbow. Those students who bent the arm at the elbow (more than a little bit) for the toss pretty much NEVER extended the the arm up "vertically" after the the ball release. Most players find it difficult to straighten the arm again if the flexion is significant during the toss. A mild flexion might be ok but too many students use a flexion that is much greater than mild.
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WildVolley
Legend
Roddick used a bent arm. He was a pretty decent server
Goran Ivanisevic also used a slight bend (almost straight) and was a decent server.
Looking at slow motion video of my own serve I have a moderately bent arm during the toss (though not like the 90 degree bend when I juggle). I'm not a decent server, though I tend to think I have good ability at controlling the toss.
So I think we can agree that tossing with a bent arm is OK. But I still think that it is best for most people to primarily toss from the shoulder movement and not rely on elbow flexion to guide the toss a lot. So if you toss with a bent arm, keep the angle fairly consistent until the ball is released. Lift the ball with the shoulder and let the hand release the ball around head height, rather than trying to flick with the wrist and fingers.
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SystemicAnomaly
Bionic Poster
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=91IxRV4RDt8
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bVlTc1vYsjQ
Take a closer look.
There is as significant difference between what Roddick does and what Groth does. Roddick does indeed have a bend in his elbow. However, he pretty much maintains the same degree of bend (flexion) as he lifts his arm for the toss. Once he release the ball, his arm straighten as he extends his arm upward toward the vertical (and beyond). This is much simpler than what Groth is doing in the 2nd link above.
Groth starts the upward motion of his tossing arm nearly straight (slight bend). As his elbow rises close to shoulder level, his elbow flexes quite a bit -- something like a 60-80 degree change in the flexion angle -- his tossing hand is moving quite a bit faster than his elbow and upper arm. In essence, he is flipping his forearm in the middle of his tossing/lifting motion.
After Groth releases the ball, his arm starts to straighten again. I'm not sure that it ever completely straighten for his trophy position as it does for other elite servers. Full extension of the tossing arm aids many servers in locating the position of the ball (wrt the body) and helps to time motion of the racket. It seems that his tossing arm is extended upward for a relatively short time.
However, these are minor points compared to the changing flexion angle prior to the release. I would strongly urge players NOT to emulate the idiosyncratic toss that Groth employs. Preferred tossing arm actions (prior to release):
1 - straight arm (lift from the shoulder)
2 - slight elbow bend (lift from the shoulder)
3 - constant elbow angle à la Andy Roddick (lift from the shoulder)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bVlTc1vYsjQ
Roddick used a bent arm. He was a pretty decent server
Take a closer look.
There is as significant difference between what Roddick does and what Groth does. Roddick does indeed have a bend in his elbow. However, he pretty much maintains the same degree of bend (flexion) as he lifts his arm for the toss. Once he release the ball, his arm straighten as he extends his arm upward toward the vertical (and beyond). This is much simpler than what Groth is doing in the 2nd link above.
Groth starts the upward motion of his tossing arm nearly straight (slight bend). As his elbow rises close to shoulder level, his elbow flexes quite a bit -- something like a 60-80 degree change in the flexion angle -- his tossing hand is moving quite a bit faster than his elbow and upper arm. In essence, he is flipping his forearm in the middle of his tossing/lifting motion.
After Groth releases the ball, his arm starts to straighten again. I'm not sure that it ever completely straighten for his trophy position as it does for other elite servers. Full extension of the tossing arm aids many servers in locating the position of the ball (wrt the body) and helps to time motion of the racket. It seems that his tossing arm is extended upward for a relatively short time.
However, these are minor points compared to the changing flexion angle prior to the release. I would strongly urge players NOT to emulate the idiosyncratic toss that Groth employs. Preferred tossing arm actions (prior to release):
1 - straight arm (lift from the shoulder)
2 - slight elbow bend (lift from the shoulder)
3 - constant elbow angle à la Andy Roddick (lift from the shoulder)
SystemicAnomaly
Bionic Poster
^^ I just read WildVolley's last post. We appear to be pretty much in agreement on this.
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SystemicAnomaly
Bionic Poster
Yup, that's pretty much what we were sayin'. This is very different from the Groth arm/elbow action.
dominikk1985
Legend
karlovic also has a slightly bent tossing arm.
however I'm not sure Groth is a good model. he is the most powerfull Server on tour but he is not as consistent as karlovic or raonic for example because his serve is rather complicated with a lot of moving parts. he uses a huge wind up, super deep knee bend and jumps up extremely explosive (sometimes a foot in the air at contact). that gives him tons of power because he is using every muscle of his Body but also can cause some inconsistencies because all those movements Need to be timed correctly.
for many Players a simpler, less explosive serve would work better.
however I'm not sure Groth is a good model. he is the most powerfull Server on tour but he is not as consistent as karlovic or raonic for example because his serve is rather complicated with a lot of moving parts. he uses a huge wind up, super deep knee bend and jumps up extremely explosive (sometimes a foot in the air at contact). that gives him tons of power because he is using every muscle of his Body but also can cause some inconsistencies because all those movements Need to be timed correctly.
for many Players a simpler, less explosive serve would work better.
Chas Tennis
G.O.A.T.
Low Toss and Very Tight Toss Trajectory
Here is a Sam Groth serve showing the very low height of the toss above impact and how small the entire toss trajectory is. Use the fence and other background objects as reference points to indicate how much the ball has dropped from its peak.
https://vimeo.com/84929883
It looks to me that he is both bending the elbow and the wrist possibly so that the release might be closer to his body, but who can say. ? The wrist looks deliberate, a little awkward. I guess you could also place a ball for that impact location with a straight-arm toss.? Is the bent arm just a choice he picked for his extremely low toss.?
Here is a Sam Groth serve showing the very low height of the toss above impact and how small the entire toss trajectory is. Use the fence and other background objects as reference points to indicate how much the ball has dropped from its peak.
https://vimeo.com/84929883
It looks to me that he is both bending the elbow and the wrist possibly so that the release might be closer to his body, but who can say. ? The wrist looks deliberate, a little awkward. I guess you could also place a ball for that impact location with a straight-arm toss.? Is the bent arm just a choice he picked for his extremely low toss.?
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A principle
If a ball hit close to an APEX the vertical component of the speed of a ball is CLOSE TO ZERO. I am a bit surprised that it has to be explained.
Talk to Tennis_Balla how he coaches serve
The principle is that a speed of TOSSED ball should be as CLOSE as possible to zero AT THE CONTACT. There is some physics behind it.
If a ball hit close to an APEX the vertical component of the speed of a ball is CLOSE TO ZERO. I am a bit surprised that it has to be explained.
Talk to Tennis_Balla how he coaches serve
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Chas Tennis
G.O.A.T.
What is the physics behind it?
Are you referring to the fact that the ball moves its slowest at the peak of its trajectory because of deceleration up, peak, and acceleration down from gravity? And presumably the impact timing would be easier, more accurate?
Also, Rod Cross discusses added topspin from the falling velocity of the ball. That factor would be zero added topspin from ball dropping speed. ??
In your opinion, what percentage of high level servers do you think are seriously considering - with their tosses - trying to hit the ball at the peak of the toss ?
Interestingly, this thread has a number of examples of very strong servers with minimal toss heights.
If the ball is stationary it would help timing but what we don't know is the timing capability of servers to put the racket on a moving ball.
There is a lot of variation in the height of the toss. Do you know of any studies?
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Studies
height of a contact
how much a contact is INSIDE of a court
a projection angle
Please try to talk to tennis_balla about how he teaches his serve
Studies deal with three variables:
height of a contact
how much a contact is INSIDE of a court
a projection angle
Please try to talk to tennis_balla about how he teaches his serve
Chas Tennis
G.O.A.T.
Since Tennis Balla starts and waits at Trophy Position he must have a relatively high toss.
I have sent an E-mail to Tennis_balla
I strongly believe that he will help us
I have sent an E-mail to Tennis_balla
I strongly believe that he will help us
WildVolley
Legend
Some of the best servers in history have had fairly low toss heights, so it is definitely a viable method of serving. The lower toss can be placed more accurately than a high toss and is less susceptible to the wind.
It may also be that it is harder to read the serve from a low toss. However, both Sampras and Federer have serves which are very hard to read and they hit form a moderate toss height. Goran could hit either corner from what appeared to be a single toss which is why he was an ace machine when getting his first serve in the box.
The long elegant windup made famous by Sampras isn't crucial to hitting a ball hard as Roddick and Groth demonstrate. Both Roddick and Groth have a short, more direct takeback and aggressive loading of the legs and dynamic hip rotation.
Reference
------>
Coordination and variability in the elite female tennis serve.
David Whiteside
David Whiteside
Bruce Clifford Elliott
Bruce Clifford Elliott
Brendan Lay
Brendan Lay
Machar Reid
Machar Reid
Journal of Sports Sciences (Impact Factor: 2.1). 10/2014; DOI: 10.1080/02640414.2014.962569
Source: PubMed
ABSTRACT Abstract Enhancing the understanding of coordination and variability in the tennis serve may be of interest to coaches as they work with players to improve performance. The current study examined coordinated joint rotations and variability in the lower limbs, trunk, serving arm and ball location in the elite female tennis serve. Pre-pubescent, pubescent and adult players performed maximal effort flat serves while a 22-camera 500 Hz motion analysis system captured three-dimensional body kinematics. Coordinated joint rotations in the lower limbs and trunk appeared most consistent at the time players left the ground, suggesting that they coordinate the proximal elements of the kinematic chain to ensure that they leave the ground at a consistent time, in a consistent posture. Variability in the two degrees of freedom at the elbow became significantly greater closer to impact in adults, possibly illustrating the mechanical adjustments (compensation) these players employed to manage the changing impact location from serve to serve. Despite the variable ball toss, the temporal composition of the serve was highly consistent and supports previous assertions that players use the location of the ball to regulate their movement. Future work should consider these associations in other populations, while coaches may use the current findings to improve female serve performance.
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Article: Coordination changes associated with practice of a soccer kick.
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------>
Coordination and variability in the elite female tennis serve.
David Whiteside
David Whiteside
Bruce Clifford Elliott
Bruce Clifford Elliott
Brendan Lay
Brendan Lay
Machar Reid
Machar Reid
Journal of Sports Sciences (Impact Factor: 2.1). 10/2014; DOI: 10.1080/02640414.2014.962569
Source: PubMed
ABSTRACT Abstract Enhancing the understanding of coordination and variability in the tennis serve may be of interest to coaches as they work with players to improve performance. The current study examined coordinated joint rotations and variability in the lower limbs, trunk, serving arm and ball location in the elite female tennis serve. Pre-pubescent, pubescent and adult players performed maximal effort flat serves while a 22-camera 500 Hz motion analysis system captured three-dimensional body kinematics. Coordinated joint rotations in the lower limbs and trunk appeared most consistent at the time players left the ground, suggesting that they coordinate the proximal elements of the kinematic chain to ensure that they leave the ground at a consistent time, in a consistent posture. Variability in the two degrees of freedom at the elbow became significantly greater closer to impact in adults, possibly illustrating the mechanical adjustments (compensation) these players employed to manage the changing impact location from serve to serve. Despite the variable ball toss, the temporal composition of the serve was highly consistent and supports previous assertions that players use the location of the ball to regulate their movement. Future work should consider these associations in other populations, while coaches may use the current findings to improve female serve performance.
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Mental and physical stress
1.Mental stress
Generally players/students do NOT like a ball close to theirs faces.
2.shoulder stress
Probably a rotator cuff is affected by a low TOS
3.large variance of placement of a ball at a opponent's serve box
This one is a bit controversial and a bit hard to explain
A low toss does NOT NECESSARILLY imply a LOW CONTACT point
Low toss is related to three factors:
1.Mental stress
Generally players/students do NOT like a ball close to theirs faces.
2.shoulder stress
Probably a rotator cuff is affected by a low TOS
3.large variance of placement of a ball at a opponent's serve box
This one is a bit controversial and a bit hard to explain
A low toss does NOT NECESSARILLY imply a LOW CONTACT point
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tennis_balla
Hall of Fame
What is this "serve" you speak of? Never heard of it.
tennis_balla
Hall of Fame
Federer waits at the trophy position, does he have a high toss? Berdych waits, does he have a high toss? Trick question
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