Sampras fans - what do you think?

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laurie

Guest
I ask this question because of the media frenzy right now over Federer (and quite right too). He's played unbelievable over the last two years and I don't see that stopping.

My question to you is how many of you are wavering with your views? Its an interesting process. For me personally, Sampras is still the best I've seen. I have many DVDs of his most incredible performances against the best players in the world. And contrary to Agassi's thoughts, he played many finals and semifinals where many players were lucky to get more than 2 games a set, including Agassi.

At the moment the serve and the volley seems to be reduced in importance and groundstrokes given more credibility. I studied Federer in his last two matches. Whenever he went to net, he invariably lost the point. His positioning at net still needs some work and his execution of technical volleys still need some work. However, with the era we are in these two important issues are kind of put to the background somewhat.

The way I see it is that Sampras is below Roger's level in ground game. Its percentages. Sampras had an incredible ground game before he lost his movement. Movement is so important to a tennis player. You cannot have good timing on your shots without it. However, I still prefer the Sampras forehand as it has more power. Sampras has the better serve and volleys with great athleticism and smash. I prefer that combination than the other way round of better groundstrokes but lesser volleys and serve. Federer gets broken fairly regurlarly but right now his opponents are intimdated and usually get broken back, probably because they don't attack enough at net. Agassi and Hewitt had some success there but didn't have the convictions to see that strategy through.

So, despite all the frenzy, I remain solid in my views. I just wonder if there other people here who stick to their thoughts? or switch their opinion because Federer is the one playing and Pete isn't.
 

Kevin Patrick

Hall of Fame
As I was watching the final, I thought what would fans start saying about Federer if he lost? Many would probably think less of him, how could he lose to a 35 year old Agassi, a player that Sampras never lost to at the US Open. Sampras would be elevated in the minds of some. But Federer won, so now he's the best ever. What a difference one match makes. Personally, I don't believe there is a best ever & never will be(because tennis is the only sport that has been drastically changed by equipment & the pro/amateur split makes it unfair to compare)

I've never seen Budge, Laver, Gonzalez, etc at their best so I can't really comment on that. From what I've seen Mac, Sampras, Fed, Becker are the best I've seen.
 

atatu

Legend
I'm willing to concede at this point that Roger is the most talented player to ever play the game. It remains to be seen whether he can maintain it over a period of time and be up there with Laver and Pete. If he wins the French and gets a career slam then he's in the top 5, regardless of how many slams he ends up winning.
 

callitout

Professional
Ive changed my opinion in the last year. 19 aces no dfs vs Andre. 76% first serve against Andre. There are 2 parts of Petes game better than Roger: 1.Second Serve
2.Volley
Fed is better in all else.
I used to think of Pete as the best big match player of all time.
But 23 straight final wins. Come on.
On clay to me clearly Roger is better. He's winning titles or losing in finals of clay court tournaments routinely, and lost only to Nadal at French this year and Guga last year--not too shabby.
 
Federer is great. And he will go down as an all-time great. But I think Pete was the better player. Sampras is much closer to Fed's groundies than Fed is to Sampras' serve and volley.
 

urban

Legend
I must confess, I am not a Sampras fan, but i respect him. He was a great attacking player, who modified his playing style after 1995 from an allcourt player to a pure serve-and volleyer with the accent on first and second serve. It worked successfully in terms of quantity of titles, but in my view hampered his way to a true universal player. I must say, that I have not figured out Federer's game yet. I'm a bit ambivalent about him: He changed from an adventurous attacker with serve-and volley elements in the years up to 2003, to a skillful baseliner, who plays a cool percentage game around his great forehand and a good (first) serve. His forehand seems to be more versatile than Sampras', and he makes virtually no error. He quietly waits for openings to finish off the points with this forehand. His backhand is only solid, when he can hit the ball in his comfort zone. He very seldom goes to the net, and his volleys at least at Flushing were poor. He reminds me a bit of Borg, although they had different styles. But I cannot imagine, that Federer - like Borg - can prolonge his domination for a long time with such a defensive basic approach. In the late 70s Borg looked invincible, he owned Connors, Vilas and Gerulaitis. But then came a true attacker like McEnroe with no fear, who punctured his defense and dethroned him. If Federer remains that kind of defensive baseliner and doesn't adopt more of a volley style - which Roche seems to intend -, i think players will figure him out.
 

ACE of Hearts

Bionic Poster
I dont think so, Roger can change many things in his game as well, he can adapt, Roger will prove to be better then Sampras when he wins Roland Garros next year.I have a feeling he will win it next year and i hope its Nadal on the other side.
 

Spencer

New User
Laurie, I agree with you.

Federer dominating a 35 year old Agassi (or even a prime Agassi) does not say much when you talk about how he would do against Sampras. Agassi and Sampras’ games are too different. Federer himself said that the way to beat himself is to Serve and Volley. He mentioned Rafter who owned him in 2001, a year where Federer beat Ivanisevic, Safin, Kafelnikov, Phillipoussis, and Sampras. YES, Federer did that in 2001! He had all the same tools and weapons he has today, he just could not play at the same consistency as he does not. I'm not saying Federer could not beat pure SVer's, just that that attacking style gives him more problems.

One thing about Federer that does impress me greatly is the fact that he has won 6 grand slams in as many tries, so I did some research to see how Sampras did in that department.


1990 US-Agassi 6-4, 6-3, 6-2
1991 (NO TITLES, Sampras was content with being one of the best)
1992 US-Edberg 3-6, 6-4, 7-6, 6-2 (Devastated by loss, vows to re-dedicate himself to winning)
1993 Wimbledon-Courier 7-6, 7-6, 3-6, 6-3
1993 US Open-Pioline 6-4, 6-4, 6-3
1994 Australian-Martin 7-6, 6-4, 6-4
1994 Wimbledon-Ivanisevic 7-6, 7-6, 6-0
1995 Australian-Agassi 4-6, 6-1, 7-6, 6-4
1995 Wimbledon-Becker 6-7, 6-2, 6-4, 6-2
1995 US-Agassi 6-4, 6-3, 4-6, 7-5
1996 US-Chang 6-1, 6-4, 7-6
1997 Australian-Moya 6-2, 6-3, 6-3
1997 Wimbledon-Pioline 6-4, 6-2, 6-4
1998 Wimbledon-Ivanesevic 6-7, 7-6, 6-4, 3-6, 6-2
1999 Wimbledon-Agassi 6-3, 6-4, 7-5
2000 Wimbledon-Rafter 6-7, 7-6, 6-4, 6-2
2000 US-Safin 6-4, 6-3, 6-3 (Ranking down, many losses to lesser foes)
2001 US-Hewitt 7-6, 6-1, 6-1

2002 US-Agassi 6-3, 6-4, 5-7, 6-4

*Losses highlighted in bold

Sampras has been in 18 major finals and has won 14 of them giving him a 77% winning percentage. Federer has been in 6 finals winning all 6 with 100% percentage.

Between 1990-1992, Sampras was a mediocre player. After his loss in the 1992 US Open he had an epiphany and re-dedicated himself, a move that changed the course of his career. He won the next four finals he was in before losing to Agassi at the 95 Aussie Open. He then had a string of 8 straight finals victories before growing old before our eyes at the 2000 US Open.

While Federer’s 6 straight wins in finals is very impressive, Sampras was no slouch when it comes to winning in finals. Not looking at his bookend losses, Pete only lost 1 match in his dominant 93-2000 run to Andre Agassi, a fellow hall of famer. That is 1 loss in a final, out of 13 finals!

Federer has already bested Sampras by winning his first 6 straight finals. However let’s see if Federer can get to another 7 major finals and not lose a single one!
 

ACE of Hearts

Bionic Poster
One thing that shocked me about Sampras was, how he did not win 3 out of 4, Federer did it along with Wilander, thats a tough feat.
 

Jack the Hack

Hall of Fame
urban said:
He very seldom goes to the net, and his volleys at least at Flushing were poor. He reminds me a bit of Borg, although they had different styles. But I cannot imagine, that Federer - like Borg - can prolonge his domination for a long time with such a defensive basic approach.

I thought this was a very interesting comment...

My perception of Federer at this US Open was that he was definitely trying to attack the net more often throughout the tournament. In one match (I can't remember which), McEnroe even made statement that it seemed like Federer was coming into the net a lot more than he did at Wimbledon. I attributed this to the work on the net game that him and Roche have been doing, and his willingness to be more agressive. After reading the statement above, it got me wondering if my perception of what I saw was wrong. So, here are the stats:

Through all 7 US Open matches, Federer played 1,486 points. In those points, he approached the net 257 times, or just over 17% of all points played. Therefore, he was coming in on roughly 1 out of every 5 points. Of the times he did approach, he won the point 174 out of 257 times, or a win rate of just under 68%.

I don't know how this compares to Sampras or the great serve and volleyers in history, but I think it shows Federer is not completely defensive minded and is certainly very proficient at net. In fact, his backhand volley and overhead seem like pretty close to the best - if not THE best - in the game today.

(Nadal seems more like a defensive player in the mold of Borg than Federer. In my opinion, Federer is more like Sampras with a better baseline game...)
 

Spencer

New User
Ace,

That is because Sampras did not have the same conditioning as Federer. He has an illness that causes him to lose his breath and become tired easier. That is why he played the style of tennis that he did. He attacked and ended points quickly on his own serve and picked his moments on his opponent's serve to work just hard enough to break them when it counted. I think he actually cruised alot during matches and did not chase down every ball because he didn't really play for the adulation of the fans or try to win every point. He did what he had to do to win and conserve his body and energy to win again. Remember, Pete himself said he didn't want to be remembered as the coolest guy, smartest guy, nicest guy, etc. in tennis. He wanted to be known as the one with the most championships!

Sampras was no Chang or Hewitt chasing down every single ball, and some would criticize him for that. But he could afford to cruise and give up on many points and still win, he was that good. While I think Sampras can beat Federer, I think it will take every bit of his best tennis to do so.
 

ACE of Hearts

Bionic Poster
I think Fed and Sampras would have some battles, they would be more competitive then the Agassi vs Sampras matches in GS.
 

ACE of Hearts

Bionic Poster
I dont know Spencer, one of the tournaments, the Australian Open was always tough.He won it twice.He had an anemia problem, i see.
 

Kevin Patrick

Hall of Fame
Spencer,
nice posts, but I'm confused by part of your post. Do you honestly think Sampras wasn't able to win 3 slams in a year because of anemia? That's quite a stretch. Sampras came close to this feat a few times but was prevented by great players in the zone('95 Australia-Agassi, '97 US Open-Korda- in a 5th set tiebreak! When you look at the draw, had Sampras won that match he was lock for the US Open title)

In '94 he was the heavy favorite for the US Open title. He got injured right after Wimbledon & wasn't able to practice or play untill the Open. He wasn't match fit & lost to Yzaga in a huge upset.

Also, I don't think Sampras was mediocre from '90 to '92. He ended '92 as the #3 player in the world. He was a bit unlucky to play the late match on Super Saturday '92 & came down with stomach cramps during the match. Wasn't 100% vs Edberg, but Edberg was a tough as nails competitor that event, it would have been tough for Sampras regardless.
 

ACE of Hearts

Bionic Poster
The problem he had was mild but it was a form of an anemia,Pete was a force in the 90s, now its Roger in the 00s, every era has its dominant player.
 

Jack the Hack

Hall of Fame
Spencer said:
While I think Sampras can beat Federer, I think it will take every bit of his best tennis to do so.

The one and only time they played each other was at the 2001 Wimbledon championships, where Federer won 7-6, 5-7, 6-4, 6-7, 7-5.
Sampras was the defending Wimbledon champion at the time, and Federer was a 20 year old up and comer. Obviously, neither were at their absolute best at the time as Sampras was on the decline and Federer was still finding his game, but I think that the scoreline is pretty indicative of how close they are and what would happen if they had played regularly.

The thing that strikes me is the uncanny similarities between the two:

Sampras was born in August of '71, Federer in August of '81.
Sampras was 6'1" and 170 lbs, Federer is 6'1" and 177 lbs.
Sampras turned pro in 1988, Federer in 1998.
Sampras won 64 titles, Federer now has 32.
Sampras considered winning Wimbledon to be the most important achievement, and so does Federer...
 

ACE of Hearts

Bionic Poster
Pete used to generate power on his serve from his stance.

Another thing which could be why he also served big was that he had long arms, which meant, he served like a big guy in which he was only 6'1.
 

Kevin Patrick

Hall of Fame
True, but he definitely filled out as he got older. Right arm & shoulder were very strong. He was hitting the weights as his career went on.
I saw him on letterman, dave wanted him to compare arms, his right forearm was huge.

Yeah those were some very long arms, probably served more like 6'6 than 6'1.
 
Spencer said:
That is because Sampras did not have the same conditioning as Federer. He has an illness that causes him to lose his breath and become tired easier.


I think this is why the French Open eluded him.
 

Matt Riordan

New User
Hmm, well Sampras did manage three consecutive slams - Wimbledon 93 to Aussie 94. But since Serena Slams don't count then neither should Sampras Slams... or near misses lol...
 

Jack the Hack

Hall of Fame
Getting back to Federer's volley game, I have pointed out that he approached the net in 17% of all the points he played at the US Open this year and won 68% of those points.

Again, I don't know how this compares to Sampras or the great serve and volleyers in history, but here is how he compared to Tim Henman and Taylor Dent (the only serve and volleyers I can think of) at this year's Open:

Henman: Played 159 points, approached the net 40 times, and won 22 of the points in which he approached. This is a 25% approach rate, and 55% success rate. (Henman lost in straight sets in the first round, so maybe he wasn't as aggressive as normal.)

Dent: Played 798 points, approached the net 355 times, and won 211 of the points in which he approached. This is a 44% approach rate, and a 59% success rate. (Dent lost in 5 sets to Hewitt in the 3rd round.)

I don't think that Sampras was as aggressive as Dent, and probably did not come in as much. I think he may have been closer to Henman (as his normal self) and if I had to guess, I would think he probably came into the net somewhere around 30-35% of the time with a success rate around 70%. Federer obviously does not come to net as much as Sampras, but I would bet that his proficiency at the net is pretty similar.
 
Urban, nice post.

Federer's got more flair than Pete...nobody banters about the boring word for him. Pete was given the boring label because (some) people found his matches to be boring; rapid fire points with no one abIe to break his serve...but what they were seeing was really good tennis. Possibly too good.

I'm finally ready to accept the comparison of Fed to Pete...but I agree with Laurie. Pete at his best was peerless. I'd love to see some of those DVDs!!
 

joesixtoe

Rookie
its funny cause you guys always say fed beat pete on his decline,, and agassi beat fed easily when fed beat pete,, but now that agassi is on his decline(interms of movement and speed) its o agassi is just not as good... but back to the subject,, yes feds ground game is better than pete's, but only because fed had a better backhand,, but serve and volly's and sheer will to win,, i'd say samprass,,, see fed lost that nasdaq final,, nadal was out of gas at the last two sets,,, anyways i'm not knocking fed,, i think he maybe the greatest,, atleast the greatest i've seen in my short tennis life,,
 

Pistol Pete

Semi-Pro
You guys have to remember that andre said a few years back that the 5 greatest players of all time were

1- Pete Sampras
2- Pete Sampras
3- Pete Sampras
4- Pete Sampras
5- Pete Sampras

after pete lost to hewitt in 01 final he said hewitt was the greatest returner he has ever played.
Which i think is just cause its after a tough loss.
I dont think roger is better than pete but he is close
Sampras is still king in my book!
they are both great
 

ACE of Hearts

Bionic Poster
Hey Pistol Pete, ur a fan, of course u are going to support ur guy, but i will say that Pete is not better, everybody is entitled, its like splitting hairs, when u mention these two guys.
 

VictorS.

Professional
I think Pete really lacked the challenge at times in his career. Let's not forget that there were a number of periods in Sampras' career when Agassi was not in the picture. Agassi in a sense pushed Sampras to new heights. There's no doubt in my mind that Federer would've forced Pete to raise his game. Federer is definitely better all-around and has a better repertoire of shots. However, I honestly believe Sampras can hold serve with much more ease. In addition, his serve and attacking style would certainly put Federer in a less offensive mode. Overall, I think Federer is the more consistent and better equiped at the baseline. However on a fast grass court, I think Sampras is the king.
 

urban

Legend
Jack the Hack, interesting stats about the net play percentage. From what i saw in the matches against Hewitt and Agassi, their net approaches were more frequent than Federer's. In the first two sets vs Agassi, he played - i think -two volleys after his serve and no chip and charge. Maybe they count points from the halfcourt, he finishes with his forehand. Interesting thing is, that Borg at Wimbledon actually played more serve and volley than Federer. Federer's tactic seems to me more of a rope-a-dope, like Ali did against Foreman. He lets the opponent play himself out.
 
L

laurie

Guest
ACE of Hearts said:
One thing that shocked me about Sampras was, how he did not win 3 out of 4, Federer did it along with Wilander, thats a tough feat.

Ace, Sampras won three slams in a row.

1993 Wimbledon, 1993 US Open, 1994 Australian Open. How do you view that achievement?
 

ctbmar

Semi-Pro
Kevin Patrick said:
Spencer,
nice posts, but I'm confused by part of your post. Do you honestly think Sampras wasn't able to win 3 slams in a year because of anemia? That's quite a stretch. Sampras came close to this feat a few times but was prevented by great players in the zone('95 Australia-Agassi, '97 US Open-Korda- in a 5th set tiebreak! When you look at the draw, had Sampras won that match he was lock for the US Open title)

In '94 he was the heavy favorite for the US Open title. He got injured right after Wimbledon & wasn't able to practice or play untill the Open. He wasn't match fit & lost to Yzaga in a huge upset.

Also, I don't think Sampras was mediocre from '90 to '92. He ended '92 as the #3 player in the world. He was a bit unlucky to play the late match on Super Saturday '92 & came down with stomach cramps during the match. Wasn't 100% vs Edberg, but Edberg was a tough as nails competitor that event, it would have been tough for Sampras regardless.

I did a search on google.com with key words "Sampras Stomach Cramps" and gotten 1992, 1994 & 1996 US Open, Wimbledon 1993...I did not know Sampras had so many stomach cramps, leg problems, sickness in big matches and when he wins some of these big matches, his fans says "wow!!!". But when he loses, these ailments will be used as excuses. Sampras can even cry for a whole match and still beat Courier. So let's just ignore all these ailments and give Edberg his due win.
 

!Tym

Hall of Fame
I think Sampras' "endurance" problems are a bit overrated personally. It's not like he was keeling over in his matches routinelly. The man played a TON of matches as all pro tennis players do, and I've only really seen him in that "keeling" mood a few times. In the Corretja match, the reason he got all weasy in the end was not because he didn't have endurance, it was because he was drinking coke on changeovers because he felt a little down. Had he not drunk the coke, I'm sure he would have "survived" ok. The Yzaga match? The guy was sick, it happens. Guys gets sick now and then, it doesn't mean he was an endurance cripple or anything. By and large, I always thought he held up fine physically in long matches, this in spite of not training for endurance at anywhere near the same clip as Thomas Muster and his 10 miles a day did. Granted a lot of this has to do with his serve keeping things short, but still the reality is that Sampras very RARELY was all keeled over and stricken during his matches.

As for Sampras vs. Federer. I think Federer primarily has problems with two things. Guys who can mix-in net approaches against him, and two guys who can hit high bouncing topspin. The high bouncing topspin causes Federer to make more errors than normal as the balls are not in his ideal strike zone, and I do not think it favors either his topspin backhand or his MUCH relied upon slice backhand (no other top player since Edberg has made this as much an integral part of his arsenal).

Two, opportunistic baseliners who know when to sneak into the net. Federer floats back A LOT of slice backhands as change of pace plays and whenever he's in trouble. He's so fast from the baseline, that when he's in trouble, he's not really in trouble. He just floats a slice back, and the point is basically reset...at which point you have to like his chances. I feel like Kiefer and Santoro give him competitive matches because they're very opportunistic. Yes, they're baseliners, but they're also always thinking of ways to sneak in and knock off the easy volley. Federer DOES give you these opportunities, but it's a bit like playing Capture the Flag. You have be sneaky about it. If you're all obvious about it and come charging for the flag, Fed will bop you on the nose. The few times Agassi snuck in against Federer he won the point easily, but the problem is he's not confident in his volley abilities and his volley can easily produce a lot of "flubs" as well, even on sitters.

Once Fed catches on to this ploy, he's dangerous but not invincible. Good, solid volleyers like Santoro and Kiefer will get their share and accomplish the goal of keeping Federer guessing for once, keep him honest if you will.

Finally, Fed used to have trouble with consistent guys as well. Agassi used to own Federer, because this was the "modern" Agassi, uber-consistent and the ultimate percentage man. Nalbandian and Hewitt used to own him for the same reason. The problem all three guys have now is that, Federer is no longer spooked by consistency. With Nadal it's different, because Nadal's consistent but it's consistency that is caused by high bouncing topspin. Nalbandian, Hewitt, and Agassi all hit flatter trajectory balls. This is right in Federer's strike zone and gives him I think a certain comfort zone that he doesn't have with Nadal. Nadal doesn't give Fed problems because he's consistent, he gives him problems because Fed like all one handers in the history of tennis except Muster and Kuerten does not like high bouncing topspin balls to his backhand. It affects both his slice and regular backhand strokes, and also creates a problem where he begins to second guess himself and hesitate on the execution of his inside-out forehand. I feel that Federer is a bit stubborn. If he starts making errors with a certain shot, he tries to hit it many more times to prove it's not a weakness. I feel this is his own arrogance baiting him to "correct" whatever might be going off in a match.

Bruguera beat Fed 6-1, 6-1 coming right off major shoulder surgery that doctors said was for sure going to end his career. Granted, Fed was not the same player then, but he also was already showing his promise that year. I have this match on tape, and Bruguera played as abysmally as I've ever seen him. He looked like an absolute shell of his former self. He was slower than molassass, repeatedly late on almost all of his shots, slow to react and anticipate, no confidence in his strokes. Just really awful. Yet, Fed was even worse this match. Fed missed routine balls over and over, he made numerous errors with his backhand, and just all in all looked out of his comfort zone.

To me, it's a combination of both. Fed back then had problems with consistent players. Now Fed no longer has problems with consistent players UNLESS they have the potential to hit high bouncing topspin...ahem, Nadal.

Finally, Hrbaty? Ehh, shiznit happens. Don't really get that one, but I guess everyone has their boogeyman.

Anyway, I think Sampras had the better serve for sure. Say what you will about Fed's "numbers," but all I know is that whenever Sampras got down 0-40 in a game, you almost expected three consecutive aces or unreturnables to bail him out which would just demoralize his opponents. Meanwhile, Fed when down in a game, takes on a different mentality. You can see it in his eyes, he takes on the look of Michael Chang. That mentality, that alertness, that I'm going to run down every and ANY thing you're going to throw at me during this point. Federer has those "counterpuncher" instincts in him that Sampras didn't. The difference between Fed and Chang is that Fed will outright end a point at the *slightest* opportunity. He has the speed to retrieve until hopefully you miss out of neverousness, but if you don't? No problem, he'll just rip a winner OR...VERY often...bait you into the net with a fast dying slice, then when you pop the ball up, he makes the easy pass.

Fed is more likely to "construct" his way out of jams and make it interesting, whereas Sampras simply just ends your hopes with a THUD. Fed usually does too, it's just that it might take a few shots into an ensuing rally before he does. Fed is the kung-fu master, Jackie Chan with the smirk. Sampras is something out of an old Western, the gun shot right between the eyes.

Finally, on the volley. No question Sampras is better. Fed volleys when he makes a great opening for himself. Take away Sampras' forehand, and have him serve and volley full-time and he'd still be a legtimate top ten player. I can't say the same for Federer. There aren't as many GREAT volleyers anymore so Fed looks great by comparison. But back in the day, there were guys like Scott Draper, Wally Masur, Cedric Pioline, Jason Stoltenberg, Todd Martin, Mark Woodforde, Todd Woodbrige, etc. who could volley exceptionally well without being "well known." These days if Mardy Fish is considered a great volleyer relative to his peers, something is wrong.

Remember, Federer says the reason he does better at Wimbledon now is because he ditched the gung-ho, serve and volley approach. Fed actually now stays back much more at Wimbledon, and picks and chooses when to approach. He was formidable serving and volleying only, but invincible or even top ten caliber? Hardly.

Overall, Fed is the more whimsical player who often times is content to simply start a point by chipping a serve back into play, etc. He can do this, because he's so confident in his speed and court coverage. He's willing to both play the "pusher" and the "fencer." He'll gladly give you the opportunity to miss and donate him points. If you don't, he'll gladly jab you and scrape you and otherwise massacre you until you look like modern art confetti.
 

Lambsscroll

Hall of Fame
callitout said:
Ive changed my opinion in the last year. 19 aces no dfs vs Andre. 76% first serve against Andre. There are 2 parts of Petes game better than Roger: 1.Second Serve
2.Volley
Fed is better in all else.
I used to think of Pete as the best big match player of all time.
But 23 straight final wins. Come on.
On clay to me clearly Roger is better. He's winning titles or losing in finals of clay court tournaments routinely, and lost only to Nadal at French this year and Guga last year--not too shabby.

Same here, with in one year I went from saying Pete is better on grass to saying Fed is better. I feel Feds backhand has improved so much in a year that it changed my mind. Fed is like Pete in so many ways but has better passing shots.
 
L

laurie

Guest
ctbmar said:
I did a search on google.com with key words "Sampras Stomach Cramps" and gotten 1992, 1994 & 1996 US Open, Wimbledon 1993...I did not know Sampras had so many stomach cramps, leg problems, sickness in big matches and when he wins some of these big matches, his fans says "wow!!!". But when he loses, these ailments will be used as excuses. Sampras can even cry for a whole match and still beat Courier. So let's just ignore all these ailments and give Edberg his due win.

Sampras had a stomach ulcer removed in 1996. It was discovered after the 1996 US Open match against Corretja. He discussed this in his 2000 interview in Tennis magazine. It was brought on due to stress.
 

teedub

Rookie
Great post !Tym your post is well thought out.

I remember when I was much younger I could predict when Sampras was going to hit an ace. Break points, tough/high pressure situations, I would say to whomever was watching with me, "ok here comes an ace." and easily 80% of the time I was right on. I felt well... sort of psychic. Takes a pretty amazing talent and confidence to pull that off.
 
Kevin Patrick said:
As I was watching the final, I thought what would fans start saying about Federer if he lost? Many would probably think less of him, how could he lose to a 35 year old Agassi, a player that Sampras never lost to at the US Open. Sampras would be elevated in the minds of some. But Federer won, so now he's the best ever. What a difference one match makes. Personally, I don't believe there is a best ever & never will be(because tennis is the only sport that has been drastically changed by equipment & the pro/amateur split makes it unfair to compare)

I've never seen Budge, Laver, Gonzalez, etc at their best so I can't really comment on that. From what I've seen Mac, Sampras, Fed, Becker are the best I've seen.

Naw many of us would just point out Roger had to play the second semi this year, and Andre had to play the second semi in both 95 and 2002, and the winner of the second semi often loses in the final(that happened in 2000, 2001, and 2002, in 2003 the winner of the first semi had played 5 straight days of tennis by the final, and in 2004 the winner of the first semi was Hewitt, Feds easiest opponent in the 20 probably, and Federer won the second semi in straight sets unlike this year ironicaly vs an unusualy challenging Hewitt). As well as both Pete and Andre being American, and Roger is not, and thus faces the more hostile and volatile crowd. There are arguments to be made in many different ways still.

Also Roger is not the best ever yet. He still has to win alot more to even come close to that. He is already among some of the greats though. His 6th slam ties him with Edberg and Becker, and his last two years puts him more dominant than they have ever been in their careers. He still is a long way from the very top in history though, and would need another 4 years like the last 2 atleast.
 

joe sch

Legend
I agree with Laurie post !
I even agree with Mac assertion that Federer maybe the greatest "ball striker" ever.
Prior to todays baseline blasting game, players needed to have allcourt games.
Federer and Agassi are not comfortable at the short game.
Sampras never developed his ball striking to the level of todays baseline blasters because :
"he was able to dominate with an allcourt game and an exceptional serve"
Sampras has 14 GS's to backup his business plan.
As I always point out, even if Federer gets or surpasses 14 GS's, he is doing it against different, and IMO, less skilled competition. He beats all the same kind of players, baseline blasters !
 

whistleway

Semi-Pro
!Tym said:
I feel that Federer is a bit stubborn. If he starts making errors with a certain shot, he tries to hit it many more times to prove it's not a weakness. I feel this is his own arrogance baiting him to "correct" whatever might be going off in a match.

Glad to see someone feels the same way. Nice post, Tym.
 

wynton

New User
I believe Sampras at his peak was better than Federer is at the moment. Let me just add a couple of brief points.

First, Sampras was very solid overall, just as Federer is. But Sampras had a devastating weapon (serve), while Federer does not. When that serve was on, it was difficult to imagine any modern player beating Sampras on a hard court.

Second, this might indicate my own bias, but it sure seems like Federer's current competition is not as strong as the competition Sampras faced when he was a similar age. To me, the level of competition seems more similar to the days when Lendl was on top.

I would agree that Federer could beat Sampras on clay because of his movement, but it remains to be seen whether Federer will manage to win the French.
 

wynton

New User
Oh, and one more thing. I really don't know what McEnroe means when he calls Federer the best "ball striker" ever. Does this mean that he hits each type of shot the best? Is this a reference to ground strokes only?
 

ACE of Hearts

Bionic Poster
When Federer wins 2 french open titles, this wont even be an issue.I dont know why people are talking about competition, Sampras in my mind, didnt play good competition, if u think pioline, Todd Martin, Michael Chang.Like someone said, Pete was about the serve, he won easy points off it.I think he would have some battles with some of the players today.
 

wynton

New User
Actually, it would be interesting to recite the list of players Sampras beat in majors and compare that list to Federer's list of opponents. But I'm too senile to remember.
 

rhubarb

Hall of Fame
wynton said:
Actually, it would be interesting to recite the list of players Sampras beat in majors and compare that list to Federer's list of opponents. But I'm too senile to remember.

Sampras' defeated opponents in slam finals: Agassi (4), Pioline (2), Ivanisevic (2), Courier, Martin, Becker, Chang, Moya, Rafter.

Federer's: Roddick (2), Philippoussis, Safin, Hewitt, Agassi


I guess you mean all the opponents, not just the finalists, but that would take me too long right now :)
 

joe sch

Legend
wynton said:
Oh, and one more thing. I really don't know what McEnroe means when he calls Federer the best "ball striker" ever. Does this mean that he hits each type of shot the best? Is this a reference to ground strokes only?
Yes, it means baseliner ;)
 

vkartikv

Hall of Fame
I grew up watching Becker and Edberg play great serve and volley tennis. When Sampras burst on the scene and beat Becker (quite regularly), I hated him and spent most of the 90s wishing someone would beat Sampras - and a lot of players almost did, which is why Sampras played a lot more 5 setters than Federer.

Looking back now, I feel so so lucky that I actually did get to see Sampras play, which a lot of people have not been able to do and have to resort to buying DVDs of his matches. I wish I had been a Sampras fan earlier, but that cannot be changed. His true greatness is realised by me only now, when I see Federer play. This topic has been discussed several times and I will always maintain - Sampras had much more talent to deal with throughout his career than Federer has had to. Yes, Federer's game is more silken and fluent than Sampras' but what he really is will not be known unless another Becker or Rafter re-arises...
 

Marius_Hancu

Talk Tennis Guru
wynton said:
Oh, and one more thing. I really don't know what McEnroe means when he calls Federer the best "ball striker" ever. Does this mean that he hits each type of shot the best? Is this a reference to ground strokes only?

from listening to him, it means quality of ball contact, lack of shearing the ball, mostly from the baseline, but not only.

he was talking this way about Agassi usually, not moved the crown to Fed:)
 

Marius_Hancu

Talk Tennis Guru
vkartikv said:
I grew up watching Becker and Edberg play great serve and volley tennis. When Sampras burst on the scene and beat Becker (quite regularly), I hated him and spent most of the 90s wishing someone would beat Sampras - and a lot of players almost did, which is why Sampras played a lot more 5 setters than Federer.

Looking back now, I feel so so lucky that I actually did get to see Sampras play, which a lot of people have not been able to do and have to resort to buying DVDs of his matches. I wish I had been a Sampras fan earlier, but that cannot be changed. His true greatness is realised by me only now, when I see Federer play. This topic has been discussed several times and I will always maintain - Sampras had much more talent to deal with throughout his career than Federer has had to. Yes, Federer's game is more silken and fluent than Sampras' but what he really is will not be known unless another Becker or Rafter re-arises...

yes, Becker and Sampras, what explosive tennis ...
 

teedub

Rookie
Sampras clearly had more all-court talent to deal with on the fast courts than Federer does now. I don't know how any Fed fan can deny that. Also Federer's slam final opponents aren't near what Sampras had to face.

Agassi (20-30yo) > Agassi (35yo)
Courier >> Roddick
Rafter >> Hewitt
Becker >> Safin
Ivanisevic > Flipper

Personally, I'd also take Ivanisevic over Roddick on a grass court any day. Anybody else agree with me on that?
 
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