Should poly always be the cross in a hybrid?

[HunterST]

I want to talk about the theory and physics behind poly hybrids.

Most people say that the reason poly strings create so much spin is that they are slick and have a quick "snap back."

If you're going to hybrid with poly, then, it seems like the soft string should go in the mains. The slippery poly would allow the softer string to move freely and give it more spin.

If you put polyester in the mains, won't the nylon or gut crosses just create friction and prevent the snap back?

 

[hoodjem]

Have I ever tried poly in the crosses? Probably not.

Poly is always in the mains.

 

[seekay]

It can go either way, and it's a matter of preference.

I prefer a soft string in the mains and a smooth round poly cross to get comfort and easy snap back.

It's also seems common to use a shaped poly in the mains with a softer cross string. With the right string combination, the mains can lock into the crosses with very little movement. That can produce plenty of spin as well, but it works differently.

 

[Chico]

Poly goes in mains usually. Poly cross with multi/synt gut mains is a terrible thing.

The only hybrid where it makes sense to have poly crosses is if you have natural gut in mains.

 

[HunterST]

Poly goes in mains usually. Poly cross with multi/synt gut mains is a terrible thing.

The only hybrid where it makes sense to have poly crosses is if you have natural gut in mains.

I know that's what most people would say, and I don't disagree. From a pure physics standpoint, though, does it make sense? Wont the non-poly string prevent the poly mains from doing their thing?

 

[TennisCJC]

Search. There are threads with discussion of syn gut mains with a poly crosses.

I actually play syn gut/poly and multi/poly setups for about a year and it is very nice.

Jim Courier plays this setup on the legends tour with his normal Gosen syn gut mains and lux cross.

My opinion is a syn gut/poly setup will have more power and feel with decent spin control due to the poly crosses. I do think you get slightly more spin and control with poly/syn gut setup but not as much power and feel.

Try it, you'll like it.

 

[SpinToWin]

I prefer the poly in the crosses every time. The trick is to have a tension differential between the soft mains and the slick and stiff crosses. Multi and syn gut are much more elastic than poly, so they stretch even at high tensions. However, high tensions cause them to snap back quicker, so by combining this with low friction poly crosses at lower tensions, you get extreme string snapback which leads to massive spin. The only true downside is durability unfortunately.

To give you an idea: I have several racquets strung up with different strings. I recently compared my Pro Staff 95 strung up with Pro's Pro Intense Heat blue 1.25 @ 19 kg with my customized Biomimetic 300 Lite strung up with a Sensation Control/Intense Heat hybrid at 26/22 kg. I got much more spin and dip with the latter setup, as well as a larger, more comfortable sweetspot and better feel, especially noticeable up at net.

 

[HunterST]

Search. There are threads with discussion of syn gut mains with a poly crosses.

I actually play syn gut/poly and multi/poly setups for about a year and it is very nice.

Jim Courier plays this setup on the legends tour with his normal Gosen syn gut mains and lux cross.

My opinion is a syn gut/poly setup will have more power and feel with decent spin control due to the poly crosses. I do think you get slightly more spin and control with poly/syn gut setup but not as much power and feel.

Try it, you'll like it.

I know there are, but I wanted this thread to be more about the theory and physics behind hybrids.

For example, most people would say the poly mains give more spin. Why? If their spin comes from being slippery and snaping back, wouldn't the nylon mains prevent that?

 

[kprince]

I prefer the poly in the crosses every time. The trick is to have a tension differential between the soft mains and the slick and stiff crosses. Multi and syn gut are much more elastic than poly, so they stretch even at high tensions. However, high tensions cause them to snap back quicker, so by combining this with low friction poly crosses at lower tensions, you get extreme string snapback which leads to massive spin. The only true downside is durability unfortunately.

To give you an idea: I have several racquets strung up with different strings. I recently compared my Pro Staff 95 strung up with Pro's Pro Intense Heat blue 1.25 @ 19 kg with my customized Biomimetic 300 Lite strung up with a Sensation Control/Intense Heat hybrid at 26/22 kg. I got much more spin and dip with the latter setup, as well as a larger, more comfortable sweetspot and better feel, especially noticeable up at net.

Can you give some recommended multi main poly cross setups? I'm interested in trying some alongside a shaped poly main crossed with intense heat to see the differences.

 

[PaulC]

I know there are, but I wanted this thread to be more about the theory and physics behind hybrids.

For example, most people would say the poly mains give more spin. Why? If their spin comes from being slippery and snaping back, wouldn't the nylon mains prevent that?

BESIDES the cross's friction co-efficient, main string snap-back also depends on the MAIN ITSELF in 2 different ways:

1. The *elasticity* of the main -- which natural gut is the best

AND/OR

2. The *stiffness* of the main -- which poly or kevlar are the best

-- that's why you can't put pasta or noodles on main with poly cross and expect it'll snap-back :mrgreen:

===============================================================================

You also need to know that main strings DICTATES THE FEEL and playing characterics (80%+).

For those Nadal-brush players who prefer the feel of the steel-wire-like main-strings knife into the tennis ball, yet want to tame down the harsh feel a little, poly-syn combo is the way to go.

On the other hand, for those who prefer a softer feel from the string bed, yet want to deaden it a little to increase spin potential, gut-poly combo is the way to go.

================================================================================

Also, UNLESS you use a tight pattern 18X20 racket, and/or if you string it past 50+lbs, (on a 95-98 frame for example) gut-poly can moves quite a bit if you're a topspin style player. Even Fed need string savers to lock it a little yet he still need to keep moving the main strings back.

Whereas, Poly-syn (with the right syn) allows you to string at lower tensions (35-45lbs) yet with minimal string movement issues.

================================================================================

You'll find significant numbers of college, ATP and WTA players on either camps.

Just try both for yourself, and decide which one you like or fit your playing style more. At the end of the day, it's a more a matter of preference than science.

-- Many top college, ATP or WTA players never took any Physics classes. :mrgreen:

 

[davidhshon]

I thought that most people put poly in their mains as it lasts a longer time, compared to when a poly is put into the crosses.

 

[SpinToWin]

Can you give some recommended multi main poly cross setups? I'm interested in trying some alongside a shaped poly main crossed with intense heat to see the differences.

Intense Heat is great for the crosses. Then you just need a multifilament whose feel and general performance you like in the mains. I chose Sensation Control because I liked the muted and soft feel in combination with the slightly lower power and its great performance up at net.

 

[Sander001]

I know that's what most people would say, and I don't disagree. From a pure physics standpoint, though, does it make sense? Wont the non-poly string prevent the poly mains from doing their thing?

Yup and the results from TWU demonstrate it.

 

[HunterST]

Yup and the results from TWU demonstrate it.

Really? Do you have a link? I'd like to look at the study and results.

 

[naturallight]

How much softer is a hybrid with poly crosses than a hybrid with poly mains? Is it pretty noticeable? I imagine the trade off is that you lose some of the benefits of the poly feel given it seems the mains really dictate the play of the racquet.

 

[Ramon]

Syngut/poly just doesn't work from a practical standpoint for advanced players who tend to break strings. Poly saws through syngut like a hot knife through butter. I've tried it before. I concluded it's an ok setup if you don't mind changing strings every 3 hours.

 

[SpinToWin]

How much softer is a hybrid with poly crosses than a hybrid with poly mains? Is it pretty noticeable? I imagine the trade off is that you lose some of the benefits of the poly feel given it seems the mains really dictate the play of the racquet.

Much softer. Also, I don't see how poly feel is a benefit. Poly generally is the string with the least feel.

 

[0d1n]

Poly goes in mains usually. Poly cross with multi/synt gut mains is a terrible thing.

The only hybrid where it makes sense to have poly crosses is if you have natural gut in mains.

Why ? If one likes the feel of synthetic gut, how is that a terrible thing ??
I for one love low tension poly from the back, and even serves are OK with it, but I like my attacking game and I'm around the net a lot. I DON'T find I like the low tension poly for volleying. It's just less control / feel for me around the net.
So...for players like me, that like a bit of spin from the back but are around the net quite a bit...that combo CAN work very well with the right synthetic/poly combo.
Or ... one can find a very elastic poly which can be strung higher and still not become a board from the back of the court (like the Gosen I'm using).
However, during the winter I just might play a hybrid with the synth gut in the mains.

Syngut/poly just doesn't work from a practical standpoint for advanced players who tend to break strings. Poly saws through syngut like a hot knife through butter. I've tried it before. I concluded it's an ok setup if you don't mind changing strings every 3 hours.

With multi ... yes, there's no chance. 1.35 mm synthetic gut CAN work. I found the Tecnifibre/Wilson Extreme ones pretty playable.
There's even 1.4 mm synthetics around...but I've never tried any at that thickness.

 

[naturallight]

Much softer. Also, I don't see how poly feel is a benefit. Poly generally is the string with the least feel.

Ok thanks. Yeah, poly feel wasn't the right word there. Instead how much spin potential do you lose from poly crosses compared to poly mains?

 

[Ramon]

With multi ... yes, there's no chance. 1.35 mm synthetic gut CAN work. I found the Tecnifibre/Wilson Extreme ones pretty playable.
There's even 1.4 mm synthetics around...but I've never tried any at that thickness.

I already tried PSGD 16 gauge and it broke sooner than RIP Control which is a tough multi. I'm done with that combo. Durability is horrendous, and honestly, there are several ways to get better playability with comfort.

 

[PaulC]

Ok thanks. Yeah, poly feel wasn't the right word there. Instead how much spin potential do you lose from poly crosses compared to poly mains?

Before the Gut/Poly camp folks citing researches that show it got the lowest friction coefficient, which is supposed to yield higher snap-back and hence increase spin potential...

From my own experience with my collector-frames (various generations of PS 90 with gut-polys at 48lbs, none are my main frames), I must say it does seems to increase spin potential on those flatter trajectory heavy-pace drives compared with full guts.

However,

1. It seems LOWERED the launch-angles of many shots.

(but I'm not sure whether it's due to the required higher tension for it to work)


2. Even with higher than my normal tension + string savers like Fed did, main strings moved out of place crazy on PURE topspin forehands (NOT those Fed-ish or Djoker-ish flatter trajectory drives with topspins) with bigger brushing actions.


So even if it increases the spin potential for those flatter trajectory drives, for me personally, it's not conducive for the pure topspin shots simply due to the excessive main string movements.

-- Topspin style play typically have a lot of 10+ shots rallies, it sucks if the main strings move way out of place after the 3rd shot :mrgreen:

 

[0d1n]

I already tried PSGD 16 gauge and it broke sooner than RIP Control which is a tough multi. I'm done with that combo. Durability is horrendous, and honestly, there are several ways to get better playability with comfort.

16 G = 1.29 or 1.30 (depending on manufacturer).
There's a significant difference to the 1.35 ones (those are usually classified as 15 G).
I break RIP Control 1.30 (which is 16 gauge full bed) in 5-10 hours depending on whether that time is spent in mostly practice or mostly matches.
If they would sell a 1.35 mm version (15 Gauge, I would probably use that and be done with it as I like the string a lot).
A 1.35 syn gut with a poly in the crosses will be quite a bit more durable than RIP Control 16 for me.
Your mileage may vary.

 

[Sander001]

Really? Do you have a link? I'd like to look at the study and results.

It's one of the TWU papers. There are many so I forgot which one.

 

[SpinToWin]

Ok thanks. Yeah, poly feel wasn't the right word there. Instead how much spin potential do you lose from poly crosses compared to poly mains?

I actually get more spin with poly crosses than with poly mains... Poly mains do not move a lot and they have a low launch angle. If you have a truly modern technique (none of the brushing up bs you read around these parts at times, but rather driving through the shot with an upward motion to give topspin) you should notice the benefit in spin.

 

[PaulC]

If you have a truly modern technique (none of the brushing up bs you read around these parts at times, but rather driving through the shot with an upward motion to give topspin)

Interesting... so you're saying Nadal and the numerous Spanish or South American topspin players of all these generations are all having "antique" techniques... :mrgreen:

BTW, they DO drive through the ball too, just that their brushing motion maybe bigger than Feds or Drokers or yours. :mrgreen:

 

[Matchball]

I hate the premature notching when the soft(er) string is in the crosses. Used to do it in the past, but I have now given up on these set ups.

 

[PaulC]

I hate the premature notching when the soft(er) string is in the crosses. Used to do it in the past, but I have now given up on these set ups.

Were you using multifil or nat gut cross and/or at 55+ lb tension?

16g basic syns like OG sheep Micro etc should not notch as fast or as bad, esp if you string it at 45 lbs or below.

 

[naturallight]

I actually get more spin with poly crosses than with poly mains... Poly mains do not move a lot and they have a low launch angle. If you have a truly modern technique (none of the brushing up bs you read around these parts at times, but rather driving through the shot with an upward motion to give topspin) you should notice the benefit in spin.

Hmm, sounds like it's worth a shot. I really liked a recent setup of BHBR mains and NRG2 crosses but it was just slightly too tough on my arm. Thinking about reversing it but NRG2 as mains probably won't last long at all. Maybe a slick syn gut like Tourn Syn Gut Armor or Babolat N.VY for the mains?

 

[SpinToWin]

Interesting... so you're saying Nadal and the numerous Spanish or South American topspin players of all these generations are all having "antique" techniques... :mrgreen:

BTW, they DO drive through the ball too, just that their brushing motion maybe bigger than Feds or Drokers or yours. :mrgreen:

So you realize that they do not brush over the ball, good.

 

[SpinToWin]

Hmm, sounds like it's worth a shot. I really liked a recent setup of BHBR mains and NRG2 crosses but it was just slightly too tough on my arm. Thinking about reversing it but NRG2 as mains probably won't last long at all. Maybe a slick syn gut like Tourn Syn Gut Armor or Babolat N.VY for the mains?

I've never tried a syn gut mains hybrid (I rarely work with syn gut) but it should work, give it a try.

 

[Matchball]

Were you using multifil or nat gut cross and/or at 55+ lb tension?

16g basic syns like OG sheep Micro etc should not notch as fast or as bad, esp if you string it at 45 lbs or below.

Good remark, still the notching happens, but higher tensions accentuate it indeed. Some strings, especially syn guts can resist more.

Gosen CX is also a very good (and low power) option.

 

[PaulC]

So you realize that they do not brush over the ball, good.

So you do realize topspin players DO having a bigger brushing-action on the tennis ball than the flat-trajectory drive players, and hence the higher RPM on average, good.

BTW, though it may not be completely "over" the tennis ball as you tried to point out, the racket face finishing AT A TILTED ANGLE (aka: the common "drive over the top of the tennis ball" expression) is really not that uncommon for most topspin players.

-- I have yet to see any high level topspin players just have a vertical racket face and go straight up -- even for the kind of flat-trjectory drive you mentioned. :mrgreen:

 

[hoodjem]

I actually get more spin with poly crosses than with poly mains.

Really.?! Most interesting.

Is this still true of shaped polys in the crosses versus the mains?

 

[SpinToWin]

Really.?! Most interesting.

Is this still true of shaped polys in the crosses versus the mains?

Actually, yes. I had done the experiment with RPM Blast 16 and the setup where I had it in the crosses produced the noticeably heavier and spinnier ball. The key is (as I mentioned before) to have a large difference in tension between the strings, the soft mains higher and the stoff poly crosses lower, in order to maximize the string snapback.

A lot depends on the specific strings in use though (in the setup above, my soft string was Wilson Sensation Control).