The biggest asterix in tennis history

BGod

G.O.A.T.
3/4 of Laver's Slams in 69 were on grass.
2 of his opponents were 1 Slam champs, another was pre-prime Newcombe, one was Rosewall who was great but older.
He didn't make past QF following.
Only 2nd year of Open Era, new format.

But we'll just ignore that then yeah? Wilander in 88 beat Cash and Lendl in 5 set marathons on hard court and Leconte on clay. Just as good honestly.
 

BGod

G.O.A.T.
2017 will go down as one of Fed’s greatest seasons yet no one claims that was his best tennis.

I find this obsession with “peak” seasons strange, particularly for the Big 3. Their careers have spanned decades, and are longer than most other players. Only a few of those years are likely to be peak play. Are we meant to ignore the rest?

Yeah okay but in comparison to what?

You can't say it was better than 2004, 2006, 2007 or 2009. And it would be a good debate with 2005 so aesthetically between 5th and 6th best? Is the argument that it's going to be remembered above his 2008 and 2010 seasons which he was in better form but lost iconically? Okay.....but who cares?

In Novak's case yes, winning all 4 Slams will be a great marker but any tennis fan with a brain will not rank it above 2015 for GOAT seasons and his 2011 was also iconic for the Nadal victories.
 

Sunny014

Legend
Yes, asterisk everything ! Cancel all wins post 30…doesn’t count because old.

Real slam count ->
Fed - 16
Nadal - 14
Djokovic - 12

Then the young ones take over

Yes, if Kyrgios and Thiem from early-mid 90s age group were fast court ATG and slow court ATG respectively then their slam counts would have been Fed 17, Nadal 15 and Djokovic 15-16.

Youngsters have disappointed after their refusal to take over in 2017.
 

Sunny014

Legend
Yeah okay but in comparison to what?

You can't say it was better than 2004, 2006, 2007 or 2009. And it would be a good debate with 2005 so aesthetically between 5th and 6th best? Is the argument that it's going to be remembered above his 2008 and 2010 seasons which he was in better form but lost iconically? Okay.....but who cares?

In Novak's case yes, winning all 4 Slams will be a great marker but any tennis fan with a brain will not rank it above 2015 for GOAT seasons and his 2011 was also iconic for the Nadal victories.

2005 was easily greater than 2017.

Fed had like 95% win that year and he faced tough compeitition from Nadal who himself had 89% win that year, both won 11 titles each.

Had Fed beaten Safin & Nalbandian then it could have been Fed's top season ever......and if he had beaten nadal too then he would have won everything.
 
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GabeT

G.O.A.T.
Yeah okay but in comparison to what?

You can't say it was better than 2004, 2006, 2007 or 2009. And it would be a good debate with 2005 so aesthetically between 5th and 6th best? Is the argument that it's going to be remembered above his 2008 and 2010 seasons which he was in better form but lost iconically? Okay.....but who cares?

In Novak's case yes, winning all 4 Slams will be a great marker but any tennis fan with a brain will not rank it above 2015 for GOAT seasons and his 2011 was also iconic for the Nadal victories.
I’d say it was more memorable than most of those other seasons and for the same reason Novak’s 2021 will stand out. It’s the combination of what he won and the age at which he won it
 

ACE of Hearts

Bionic Poster
It’s time to call it for what it really is. Novak Djokovic’s 2021 season and potential CSG is by a large distant the tennis achievement with the biggest asterix attached to it.

Let’s start from the beginning of the year. At the Australian Open the Serb looked more then beatable. Let’s be honest, in any other era Djokovic would have lost before the final. Fritz should have ended him without a shadow of a doubt - I have a hard time seeing any Nole fan not agreeing here - and Zverev aka ”put myself in there maybe” had another US Open like choke. Zverev isn’t 19 or 20 anymore. He’s at an age where you’re supposed to be in your prime. Even Mr Walkman (Raonic) in his 2016 form would have put the hammer down on Djokovic.

In the final Djokovic faced Medvedev, the most in-form player on tour. The Russian turned into a little scared bunny who doesn’t know how to fight and couldn’t help but smile afterwards despite having lost in three humiliating sets with a 20+ match winning streak going into the match. Absolutely pathetic. Granted, Djokovic played a great final but Medvedev’s attitude and lack of fight is an embarrassment.

Nonetheless, Medvedev’s shameful performance shouldn’t even have mattered. Novak Djokovic in any other era wouldn’t have reached the final.

Let’s fast forward to RG. Djokovic survives Musetti after being behind 0-2. Musetti, aged 19(!!!!), retired without an injury at the end of the fifth set. I mean, come on, at this point I don’t know whether to laugh or cry. The only thing to conclude is that it was a joke. No wonder Djokovic offered him a first class seat for free on his private jet to Wimbledon.

”But Djokovic’s superb and super human win against Rafa in the semis!??”, I can already hear Djokovic fans screaming in their heads. Yes, the Rafael Nadal with a severe foot injury who could barely move the last 1,5 sets. On paper a great win but looking at it with context - especially after seeing how Nadal has struggled with even training and playing matches after RG - it is not that special. Federer would have had 4 DCGS should he dealt with this Rafa in 05, 06, 07 and 11. But luck was on Djokovic’s side just like in 2015 but then Wawrinka stood in the way in the end. It’s quite telling that Fed had to face demon versions of Nadal every time whereas Djokovic could stomp on the two worst versions of Rafa at RG.

In the final Tsitsipas provided an epic choke in the last three sets. In the press conference afterwards he said he learned that he had to win 3 sets and not 2. That’s the kind of opposition Djokovic has had to face. If not an injured Nadal, it has been next gen players thinking they’re demi Gods thanks to social media.

Ok, Wimbledon... the biggest joke of a Grand Slam tournament in this millenium. Djokovic played at 1,5/5 level throughout the tournament and barely lost a set. Another next gen player in the final who couldn’t handle pressure. Wimbledon was a giant joke. Any Djokovic fan stating he is at least close to a neutral observer will have to nod his head in agreement.

Now, US Open is around the corner. Nadal is injured and out. Federer once again is out. Djokovic without having to face his two biggest rivals has the opportunity to achieve the calender Grand Slam. Wawrinka is out. Any other decent older player is not there, retired or out of form. What is left are the same players who have given Djokovic 3 Grand Slam titles on a plate this year. At this stage you’ll have to wonder if they’ll be at the podium after the final so Djokovic can Thank them in person: ”Without you guys it wouldn’t be possible!” He would say before going on to talk about his team and coaches.

I’m not even going to include a poll. It’s not a question, it’s a mere case of stating the obvious: Novak Djokovic’s achievements in 2021 and potential CSG has the biggest Asterix attached to it in tennis history, possibly even in sport’s history.

I’m a fed fan but there’s a lot of sour grapes behind your post. Face it federer will be surpassed. Federer has no one to blame but himself. He left slams on the table. Choke in the final at Wimbledon in 2019.
 

BGod

G.O.A.T.
2005 was easily greater than 2017.

Fed had like 95% win that year and he faced tough compeitition from Nadal who himself had 89% win that year, both won 11 titles each.

Had Fed beaten Safin & Nalbandian then it could have been Fed's top season ever......and if he had beaten nadal too then he would have won everything.

I would absolutely rank 2005 above 2017, I'm not the one in need of convincing.

I’d say it was more memorable than most of those other seasons and for the same reason Novak’s 2021 will stand out. It’s the combination of what he won and the age at which he won it

Fed's placement in the GOAT order will minimize 2017 except for recency bias. Winning 3 Slams 3 times in 4 seasons, the 23 consecutive Slam Semis, that will be his legacy.

Novak's 2021 will be held up there but moreso because he'll get 21 but his 2015 season won't be overshadowed by tennis historians. Especially if he does win all 4 Slams and nothing else, I mean it's not like adding the WTF is key but having nothing else on tour and the Med-Tsit-Ber-??? finals will not stand the test of time.
 

Sunny014

Legend
I would absolutely rank 2005 above 2017, I'm not the one in need of convincing.



Fed's placement in the GOAT order will minimize 2017 except for recency bias. Winning 3 Slams 3 times in 4 seasons, the 23 consecutive Slam Semis, that will be his legacy.

Novak's 2021 will be held up there but moreso because he'll get 21 but his 2015 season won't be overshadowed by tennis historians. Especially if he does win all 4 Slams and nothing else, I mean it's not like adding the WTF is key but having nothing else on tour and the Med-Tsit-Ber-??? finals will not stand the test of time.


Nadal peaking early is what ruined Fed's legacy.

Had Nadal not peaked physically in 2005 and only peaked in 2010 without any great teenage prodigy type feats then that would have enabled Fed to add 6 more slams and make it 26 and this would have enabled Nadal to peak directly into the 2010s and not suffer any burnout/knee problems even today, Nadal would still have been better shape now and in a better position to compete with Novak too and add later slams to his tally.

Nadal entering Fed's peak ruined Fed and helped Novak.
 

GabeT

G.O.A.T.
Fed's placement in the GOAT order will minimize 2017 except for recency bias. Winning 3 Slams 3 times in 4 seasons, the 23 consecutive Slam Semis, that will be his legacy.

Novak's 2021 will be held up there but moreso because he'll get 21 but his 2015 season won't be overshadowed by tennis historians. Especially if he does win all 4 Slams and nothing else, I mean it's not like adding the WTF is key but having nothing else on tour and the Med-Tsit-Ber-??? finals will not stand the test of time.
obviously when looking at a player like Fed (or Novak for that matter) you look at the whole career.

if Novak wins the CYGS (don’t think he will) it will be rightly remembered as one of the greatest seasons ever. No one will remember who he played against. No one recalls who Laver beat in 1969 and no one cares.

Fed’s legacy includes many aspects, and 2017/18 is a big part of that. Not only because without it he’d be a distant third already in the slam race but because of what he won and against whom. And, of course, at what age.
 

Sunny014

Legend
Federer has enjoyed the GOAT status for 15+ years, all that hype that surrounded him before he breaking Pete's record and then what surrounded afterwards has been massive, today it has Novak also levelled, might cross it and people will have their various opinion over it, can't help it. If Fed did not want this to happen then he should not have help Novak at all those wimbledons and us opens, he failed. French and AO he could not have done much, however those other 2 slams he should have stopped him, failed, that will now come back to bite his ass as he has allowed someone to enter his territory and maybe even surpass in records, not a pleasant feeling after enjoying all this limelight for 15+ years.
 
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Fiero425

Legend
No asterisk is needed, because Djokovic can overcome any opposition, as in 10-1 record against Federer and Nadal in his last 11 Slam matches against them.

And don't say they were washed up and old. In that span, if they had overcame Djokovic, Federer would've added 5 more Slam tittles, and Nadal 3 more.

This thread is so hilarous for that very reason! Nole's had to deal with so much adversity and still there are these detractors trying to steal his thunder by undermining his achievements! Most of his major wins came with victories over other Big 4 members; usually having to overcome 2 of them! He has a few easy finals of late so he's vulturing titles now! I don't think they really want to get into a war of words when it comes to vulturing majors; esp. with Nadal on clay! It's like "cry me a river" he's had bad luck with injury! IMO Rafa wouldn't be so beat up if he didn't play such a defensive game allowing nobodies and never-weres to extend him to the limit round after round! Federer is just simply past it and shouldn't be brought up again when it comes to the GOAT race! :unsure:
 

NoleFam

Bionic Poster
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BauerAlmeida

Hall of Fame
Fernando Gonzalez of AO07 would have beaten AO21 Djokovic in maximum4 sets.

He was playing fantastic tennis and only morons who didn't watch him think he was a "weak" rival, but no, he's not beating Djokovic at the AO. 2005 Safin is the only non-Big 3 player that beats a prime Djokovic at the AO (aside from Wawrinka who, well, actually did it).
 

Sunny014

Legend
Federer should now invest his Billion $ in building a time machine and going back in time and telling his younger self to not hire that joker annacone in 2010 and hire some real coach, maybe hire lujibicic when he is still playing, not a bad idea. Change racquet in 2010 itself so that his renaissance of W2014 can start 3-4 years earlier, then ask his younger version to travel all around the world, find Sascha, Kyrgios, Thiem etc etc, find them, train them personally so that they can become slam winners in 2016+ scenario to avoid the weak era to kick in.

No other solution.
 

BGod

G.O.A.T.
2008 Wimbledon
2009 US Open
2014 Wimbledon
2019 Wimbledon

These 4 he should not have lost and 2011 US open he should have reached the final and taken out Nadal.,

These 5 slams will now bite him on his ass.

I remain steadfast he was fortunate to make 08 Wimbledon as close as it was. 1/13 BPs does not go away and he should have lost in 4 sets. I easily switch that with 2011 USO where Nadal was absolutely beatable and I would have favoured Fed and my reference is the WTF 2010-2011 victories against Rafa especially in 2011 where he ***** him 6-3, 6-0. Also 2016 Wimbledon gets lost in the shuffle because of 2017 but he is heavily favoured against Murray there after taking out Milos in 4 (which he should have done ugggggh) and then 2015 USO is the last one where he had a legitimate chance against with the BPs, could have won the 1st set then off to the races (hadn't dropped a set remember).
 

BGod

G.O.A.T.
He was playing fantastic tennis and only morons who didn't watch him think he was a "weak" rival, but no, he's not beating Djokovic at the AO. 2005 Safin is the only non-Big 3 player that beats a prime Djokovic at the AO (aside from Wawrinka who, well, actually did it).

2008 Tsonga?
2013 Murray?
 

Sunny014

Legend
I remain steadfast he was fortunate to make 08 Wimbledon as close as it was. 1/13 BPs does not go away and he should have lost in 4 sets. I easily switch that with 2011 USO where Nadal was absolutely beatable and I would have favoured Fed and my reference is the WTF 2010-2011 victories against Rafa especially in 2011 where he ***** him 6-3, 6-0. Also 2016 Wimbledon gets lost in the shuffle because of 2017 but he is heavily favoured against Murray there after taking out Milos in 4 (which he should have done ugggggh) and then 2015 USO is the last one where he had a legitimate chance against with the BPs, could have won the 1st set then off to the races (hadn't dropped a set remember).

Why should it be that close in the first place? He had no business going 2 sets down and then try to heavylift the match to win in straights from there? Is that even feasible?

Totally ruined it, Fed loosening his grip on Grass is one of the reasons why he is not longer slams leader, Nadal never loosened his grip on clay, Novak has also held on to his AO somehow, Fed allowed Grass to slip away, he should have focussed on taking grass every year without fail. He was even focused on that useless clay until recent years, a fool's errand.
 

BGod

G.O.A.T.
The field has been bad but you can say the same thing about the asterisk seasons of Fed's like 2006/2007 or Nadal's 2010. All lousy years for the men's game coincidentally when the Big 3 dominated the most those years.

Baghdatis gets a lot of crap but how exactly do you ignore Nadal, Roddick, Novak (even if young), Gonzalez and call it asterisk to the same tee as 2021? Medvedev and Berretini would not get past QFs in 06-07.
 
Baghdatis gets a lot of crap but how exactly do you ignore Nadal, Roddick, Novak (even if young), Gonzalez and call it asterisk to the same tee as 2021? Medvedev and Berretini would not get past QFs in 06-07.

Roddick was never the same after 2005 like Hewitt as he brought on these coaches that screwed his game all up. . . Djokovic was a pup and just starting in 2007. Nadal didn't hit an all surface prime until 2008. He was still learning to achieve off clay
 

Sunny014

Legend
The field has been bad but you can say the same thing about the asterisk seasons of Fed's like 2006/2007 or Nadal's 2010. All lousy years for the men's game coincidentally when the Big 3 dominated the most those years.


2006 was a bad year and so was 2010 ........ but not 2007

2007 AO beat Roddick and Gonzales back to back, they were good enough rivals.,
2007 FO beat Davydenko but faced clay GOAT in the final
2007W peak Nadal in the final
2007USO Roddick, Davydenko and then Djokovic .... that is as tough as it gets. ..... Maybe you r expecting peak djokovic to face him in the final but we cannot have everything.
Tour finals also had 7 great champs, except gasquet everyone else was a big name
 

Sunny014

Legend
Nadal was actually at his peak from 2007FO onwards.

One could even say that Nadal was phsyically at his peak and won 11 titles + had 89% win record in 05 and even in 06 his win record was 86 or something like that but 07FO onwards it was absolute peak nadal....
 

GabeT

G.O.A.T.
2008 Wimbledon
2009 US Open
2014 Wimbledon
2019 Wimbledon

These 4 he should not have lost and 2011 US open he should have reached the final and taken out Nadal.,

These 5 slams will now bite him on his ass.
You win some, you lose some
 

weakera

Talk Tennis Guru
It’s time to call it for what it really is. Novak Djokovic’s 2021 season and potential CSG is by a large distant the tennis achievement with the biggest asterix attached to it.

Let’s start from the beginning of the year. At the Australian Open the Serb looked more then beatable. Let’s be honest, in any other era Djokovic would have lost before the final. Fritz should have ended him without a shadow of a doubt - I have a hard time seeing any Nole fan not agreeing here - and Zverev aka ”put myself in there maybe” had another US Open like choke. Zverev isn’t 19 or 20 anymore. He’s at an age where you’re supposed to be in your prime. Even Mr Walkman (Raonic) in his 2016 form would have put the hammer down on Djokovic.

In the final Djokovic faced Medvedev, the most in-form player on tour. The Russian turned into a little scared bunny who doesn’t know how to fight and couldn’t help but smile afterwards despite having lost in three humiliating sets with a 20+ match winning streak going into the match. Absolutely pathetic. Granted, Djokovic played a great final but Medvedev’s attitude and lack of fight is an embarrassment.

Nonetheless, Medvedev’s shameful performance shouldn’t even have mattered. Novak Djokovic in any other era wouldn’t have reached the final.

Let’s fast forward to RG. Djokovic survives Musetti after being behind 0-2. Musetti, aged 19(!!!!), retired without an injury at the end of the fifth set. I mean, come on, at this point I don’t know whether to laugh or cry. The only thing to conclude is that it was a joke. No wonder Djokovic offered him a first class seat for free on his private jet to Wimbledon.

”But Djokovic’s superb and super human win against Rafa in the semis!??”, I can already hear Djokovic fans screaming in their heads. Yes, the Rafael Nadal with a severe foot injury who could barely move the last 1,5 sets. On paper a great win but looking at it with context - especially after seeing how Nadal has struggled with even training and playing matches after RG - it is not that special. Federer would have had 4 DCGS should he dealt with this Rafa in 05, 06, 07 and 11. But luck was on Djokovic’s side just like in 2015 but then Wawrinka stood in the way in the end. It’s quite telling that Fed had to face demon versions of Nadal every time whereas Djokovic could stomp on the two worst versions of Rafa at RG.

In the final Tsitsipas provided an epic choke in the last three sets. In the press conference afterwards he said he learned that he had to win 3 sets and not 2. That’s the kind of opposition Djokovic has had to face. If not an injured Nadal, it has been next gen players thinking they’re demi Gods thanks to social media.

Ok, Wimbledon... the biggest joke of a Grand Slam tournament in this millenium. Djokovic played at 1,5/5 level throughout the tournament and barely lost a set. Another next gen player in the final who couldn’t handle pressure. Wimbledon was a giant joke. Any Djokovic fan stating he is at least close to a neutral observer will have to nod his head in agreement.

Now, US Open is around the corner. Nadal is injured and out. Federer once again is out. Djokovic without having to face his two biggest rivals has the opportunity to achieve the calender Grand Slam. Wawrinka is out. Any other decent older player is not there, retired or out of form. What is left are the same players who have given Djokovic 3 Grand Slam titles on a plate this year. At this stage you’ll have to wonder if they’ll be at the podium after the final so Djokovic can Thank them in person: ”Without you guys it wouldn’t be possible!” He would say before going on to talk about his team and coaches.

I’m not even going to include a poll. It’s not a question, it’s a mere case of stating the obvious: Novak Djokovic’s achievements in 2021 and potential CSG has the biggest Asterix attached to it in tennis history, possibly even in sport’s history.

You're completely correct. The entire season has been smoke and mirrors from Djokovic in terms of his level. He is on a magic carpet ride.
 

SardinesForDinner

Professional
He was playing fantastic tennis and only morons who didn't watch him think he was a "weak" rival, but no, he's not beating Djokovic at the AO. 2005 Safin is the only non-Big 3 player that beats a prime Djokovic at the AO (aside from Wawrinka who, well, actually did it).

He could have definitely beaten the 2021 AO version of Djokovic. Not talking about his prime performances.
 
It doesn't matter what Djokovic achieves. What matters most is when he was at his absolute best he would down match points in 2/3 slams to past peak Federer. At their zenith's Federer is the better player. Achievements are a result of circumstances, luck, etc.
Federer was lucky Novak was still young and had not maxed out to his potential before end of 2010. As soon as Novak did it was over for Fed in most of the big matches.

Fed should be thankful Novak got injured and lost a bit of motivation in 2017/2018 or he’d still be on 17.

Feds the biggest vulture and weak era champ. Only being able to win 4 slams since 2010. Weak era champ lol

Imagine having a 16 to 1 slam head start and still get overtaken:-D:laughing:
 
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