The Myth of the last 15 years has been exposed

It's becoming clear over the last 18 months that we've been suffering for years from a mass delusion that we've been witnessing the golden age of the game.

Consider the list of tennis greats from 1980-95, and then compare to the list of tennis greats from 2003-2018.

1980-95: Borg, Connors, McEnroe, Lendl, Wilander, Noah, Becker, Edberg, Chang, Courier, Sampras, Agassi, Ivanisevic. Think of the variety of their technique; the extreme variety of their personalities; the extreme variety of the courts; the excitement of the changing of the guard when brilliant players of one generation were swept aside by brilliant players of the next generation. Think of the variety of legendary rivalries: Borg v Connors, Connors v McEnroe, Borg v McEnroe, McEnroe v Lendl, Becker v Edberg, Becker v Lendl, Courier v Agassi, Agassi v Sampras

And then consider the class of 03-18: Hewitt, Federer, Roddick, Nadal, Djokovic, Murray, Wawrinka. No real personalities; no on-court blow ups or laughs; surfaces all playing the same; players all playing from the baseline. Yes, some great matches, but usually of the attritional variety. Legendary rivalries? Federer V Nadal, Nadal v Djokovic, Djokovic v Federer. Great matches -but farcically repetitive.

We've been sold a pup. The golden age of tennis was late-70s to the mid-90s. The last fifteen years have been a mirage in which we've convinced ourselves we've been living in a golden era when, in fact, as the last 18 months have demonstrated, there is a tragic lack of strength in depth or variety in the game. The big 3 will always be considered 3 of the greatest players who ever lived-but in years to come we'll look back on this era as a repetitive and grinding come-down from the true glory days of tennis.
 
N

nikdom

Guest
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Roger: "No please go on. I'm all ears."
 

killerboi2

Hall of Fame
And it's only going to get worse. I think in the future we could actually see slams getting devalued. Murray and Wawrinka win 3 slams - great. Imagine if someone like Dimitrov won 3 slams. Would anyone accept it? These guys are so inferior to the era before them that they will need to achieve even more to be taken seriously. Regarding homogenization, yeah... Sampras would have without doubt rejected slam count as the dealbreaker for GOAT if he knew the entire tour was going to get homogenized.

As for players all having the same personalities - this comes from the current players being media trained for PR purposes. Also snowflake generation can't even handle a guy like Nick Kyrgios. How are they going to handle even more personality in the game.
 

Bluefan75

Professional
And it's only going to get worse. I think in the future we could actually see slams getting devalued. Murray and Wawrinka win 3 slams - great. Imagine if someone like Dimitrov won 3 slams. Would anyone accept it? These guys are so inferior to the era before them that they will need to achieve even more to be taken seriously. Regarding homogenization, yeah... Sampras would have without doubt rejected slam count as the dealbreaker for GOAT if he knew the entire tour was going to get homogenized.

As for players all having the same personalities - this comes from the current players being media trained for PR purposes. Also snowflake generation can't even handle a guy like Nick Kyrgios. How are they going to handle even more personality in the game.

There is also the 32 seeds. Guys get to work their way into slams now.

Kyrgios though.... you can't call it "personality" when a guy brings up the other guy's girlfriend on a changeover, and tears a strip off his own box when they did.... I don't know what they did. Kyrgios is different than the average bear, sure, but I don't think what he brings is personality. Controversy, sure, but those are not the same things.
 

BGod

G.O.A.T.
I do agree the mid 80s to early 90s trumps the 08-14 era.

Nadal & Novak were not in Fed's era just how great Roger was and Murray/Wawrinka were nice also-rans.

But Lendl/Becker/Edberg/Wilander soeak for themselves. Then you get Becker continuing because of his age with Courier coming in.

McEnroe was there too just seems to slide as an intermediary from Borg. And Connors throughout that period after 74 kinda the also ran but a great one at 2 of 4 Slams.
 

EloQuent

Legend
There's a lot of circular reasoning going on here. The reason that all these players haven't won slams is because 3 (or 5) players at the top were much better than the rest. Does that mean the rest were weak, or these players are just that good? There's really no way to prove either way.
 

TMF

Talk Tennis Guru
Ok so Nadal lost, so what? There's no need for making butthurt threads one after another. Nadal still has 16 slams, that's a great career and his fans should be extremely satisfy rather than expressing sour grapes.
 
Borg participated in those legendary rivalries of 80-95 for the last time in 1981, when he played his last slam.
Ivanisevic and Noah won 1 slam each.

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That's right. And in that time Borg took part in the greatest tennis match of all time(so good they turned it into a movie), a legendary US open final against the same rival (the Fire to Borg's ice), and one of the greatest Wimbledon semis of all-time against Connors. That's before we consider how monumental his eventual dethroning at Wimbledon was -we watched in a kind of stunned disbelief-and the astonishment when he walked away at the age of 26. Not to mention the tragic-comic coda when he attempted to return with his old wooden racquet after the entire game had switched to graphite. Brilliant stuff both on and off the court. Absolutely nothing to rival it in the last fifteen years.
 

BGod

G.O.A.T.
There's a lot of circular reasoning going on here. The reason that all these players haven't won slams is because 3 (or 5) players at the top were much better than the rest. Does that mean the rest were weak, or these players are just that good? There's really no way to prove either way.

Well, Delpo & Soderling would have been in the thick of things were it not for illness and injury so there's also that.

But we can categorically prove they were weak because they should have been consistently making Quarters or R16. To some extent they were but a lot of upsets that didn't affect the big guys.

Berdych outside AO spotty.
Cilic only consistent at Wimbledon.

Kei & Raonic deal with injuries but still plenty of upsets.

Tsonga???????

So yes we know.
 

George Turner

Hall of Fame
It's becoming clear over the last 18 months that we've been suffering for years from a mass delusion that we've been witnessing the golden age of the game.

Consider the list of tennis greats from 1980-95, and then compare to the list of tennis greats from 2003-2018.

1980-95: Borg, Connors, McEnroe, Lendl, Wilander, Noah, Becker, Edberg, Chang, Courier, Sampras, Agassi, Ivanisevic. Think of the variety of their technique; the extreme variety of their personalities; the extreme variety of the courts; the excitement of the changing of the guard when brilliant players of one generation were swept aside by brilliant players of the next generation. Think of the variety of legendary rivalries: Borg v Connors, Connors v McEnroe, Borg v McEnroe, McEnroe v Lendl, Becker v Edberg, Becker v Lendl, Courier v Agassi, Agassi v Sampras

And then consider the class of 03-18: Hewitt, Federer, Roddick, Nadal, Djokovic, Murray, Wawrinka. No real personalities; no on-court blow ups or laughs; surfaces all playing the same; players all playing from the baseline. Yes, some great matches, but usually of the attritional variety. Legendary rivalries? Federer V Nadal, Nadal v Djokovic, Djokovic v Federer. Great matches -but farcically repetitive.

We've been sold a pup. The golden age of tennis was late-70s to the mid-90s. The last fifteen years have been a mirage in which we've convinced ourselves we've been living in a golden era when, in fact, as the last 18 months have demonstrated, there is a tragic lack of strength in depth or variety in the game. The big 3 will always be considered 3 of the greatest players who ever lived-but in years to come we'll look back on this era as a repetitive and grinding come-down from the true glory days of tennis.

Roddick and Hewitt were better than Chang, Noah and Ivanisevic. I'd put them not far behind Courier, who stopped winning majors after Sampras got to number 1 in 1993, similar to how Federer stopped Hewitt and Roddick winning after 2003. Courier was fortunate in the sense his peak came before Sampras, while Roddicks clashed with Federer.

Chang is more comparable to David Ferrer (slightly better than Ferrer, enough to win that freak major aged 17) Noah never reached another major final besides his French win, Goran was a fast grass court specialist. So as good as the era 1980-1995 was, you are really taking a very biased point of view here ;)

As for personality, i would blame that on our politically correct world and media, the players have to behave a certain way so as not to "upset" people unfortunately.
 

ingvar

Rookie
Oh God, here come the gifs. Another tragic development in recent years.

sounds like you simply haven't evolved or even adapted. Im surprised your on an internet forum. isnt the internet an inferior form of communication that is destroying the youth?

tell you what do it the old fashioned way find two washed up guys go to a bar and have your endless rants there. Tell the bar about how you have some answer for global problems that no one else has thought up and how to make billions on the stock market
 
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EloQuent

Legend
Well, Delpo & Soderling would have been in the thick of things were it not for illness and injury so there's also that.

But we can categorically prove they were weak because they should have been consistently making Quarters or R16. To some extent they were but a lot of upsets that didn't affect the big guys.

Berdych outside AO spotty.
Cilic only consistent at Wimbledon.

Kei & Raonic deal with injuries but still plenty of upsets.

Tsonga???????

So yes we know.
You'd have to go through each slam and determine who would have won without the top guys. I'm sure there would have been a multiple slam winner. Just a few examples: Roddick made 4 finals and 3 SF in 04-09, plus QF. Tsonga you mentioned. Ferrer made SF 5 time, a F, a dozen QF. Raonic made QF or better 7 times. So did Nishikori.
 

fedtennisphan

Hall of Fame
Ok so Nadal lost, so what? There's no need for making butthurt threads one after another. Nadal still has 16 slams, that's a great career and his fans should be extremely satisfy rather than expressing sour grapes.

That’s the only emotion Nadal and his fan can express because the fly in the ointment is about catch his 20th prey.
 

canta_Brian

Hall of Fame
sounds like you simply haven't evolved or even adapted. Im surprised your on an internet forum. isnt the internet an inferior form of communication that is destroying the youth?

tell you what do it the old fashioned way find two washed up guys go to a bar and have your endless rants there
"You're" on an Internet forum.

Back when it was all fields these things mattered.
 

ScentOfDefeat

G.O.A.T.
It's becoming clear over the last 18 months that we've been suffering for years from a mass delusion that we've been witnessing the golden age of the game.

Consider the list of tennis greats from 1980-95, and then compare to the list of tennis greats from 2003-2018.

1980-95: Borg, Connors, McEnroe, Lendl, Wilander, Noah, Becker, Edberg, Chang, Courier, Sampras, Agassi, Ivanisevic. Think of the variety of their technique; the extreme variety of their personalities; the extreme variety of the courts; the excitement of the changing of the guard when brilliant players of one generation were swept aside by brilliant players of the next generation. Think of the variety of legendary rivalries: Borg v Connors, Connors v McEnroe, Borg v McEnroe, McEnroe v Lendl, Becker v Edberg, Becker v Lendl, Courier v Agassi, Agassi v Sampras

And then consider the class of 03-18: Hewitt, Federer, Roddick, Nadal, Djokovic, Murray, Wawrinka. No real personalities; no on-court blow ups or laughs; surfaces all playing the same; players all playing from the baseline. Yes, some great matches, but usually of the attritional variety. Legendary rivalries? Federer V Nadal, Nadal v Djokovic, Djokovic v Federer. Great matches -but farcically repetitive.

We've been sold a pup. The golden age of tennis was late-70s to the mid-90s. The last fifteen years have been a mirage in which we've convinced ourselves we've been living in a golden era when, in fact, as the last 18 months have demonstrated, there is a tragic lack of strength in depth or variety in the game. The big 3 will always be considered 3 of the greatest players who ever lived-but in years to come we'll look back on this era as a repetitive and grinding come-down from the true glory days of tennis.

I agree, to the extent I can agree with there being a "golden age" of anything. And commend you for the courage to say this.
 

skip1969

G.O.A.T.
It's becoming clear over the last 18 months that we've been suffering for years from a mass delusion that we've been witnessing the golden age of the game.

Consider the list of tennis greats from 1980-95, and then compare to the list of tennis greats from 2003-2018.

1980-95: Borg, Connors, McEnroe, Lendl, Wilander, Noah, Becker, Edberg, Chang, Courier, Sampras, Agassi, Ivanisevic. Think of the variety of their technique; the extreme variety of their personalities; the extreme variety of the courts; the excitement of the changing of the guard when brilliant players of one generation were swept aside by brilliant players of the next generation. Think of the variety of legendary rivalries: Borg v Connors, Connors v McEnroe, Borg v McEnroe, McEnroe v Lendl, Becker v Edberg, Becker v Lendl, Courier v Agassi, Agassi v Sampras

And then consider the class of 03-18: Hewitt, Federer, Roddick, Nadal, Djokovic, Murray, Wawrinka. No real personalities; no on-court blow ups or laughs; surfaces all playing the same; players all playing from the baseline. Yes, some great matches, but usually of the attritional variety. Legendary rivalries? Federer V Nadal, Nadal v Djokovic, Djokovic v Federer. Great matches -but farcically repetitive.

We've been sold a pup. The golden age of tennis was late-70s to the mid-90s. The last fifteen years have been a mirage in which we've convinced ourselves we've been living in a golden era when, in fact, as the last 18 months have demonstrated, there is a tragic lack of strength in depth or variety in the game. The big 3 will always be considered 3 of the greatest players who ever lived-but in years to come we'll look back on this era as a repetitive and grinding come-down from the true glory days of tennis.
I never get into discussions about eras or GOATS on here cos I personally have better things to do with my time. I've played tennis for more than 30 years now and I love the sport. But I don't concern myself with records and all-time greatness. I enjoy what is on offer.

I will grant you this: You're right when you talk about a relative lack of variety in today's game. Yes, the players from the 80-95 era that you mention were not only different in personalities (something we have no control over), but also in playing styles (something we do have some control over). So the rivalries each had their own flavor. The tour itself killed off variety of playing styles when they started tampering with surfaces to the point that now it's basically a grinder's tour and every player is essentially a baselining grinder. So yes, now it's homogenized and there's less variety on offer.

Today's game might not be as popular (ratings-wise) but it's more global than ever, which I like. I can't speak to when the "golden era" was, if there ever was one. But for me, if I want to stay a tennis fan, I have to find enjoyment at what's in front of me.
 

ingvar

Rookie
"You're" on an Internet forum.

Back when it was all fields these things mattered.

i actually noticed that when I posted it and couldnt be bothered to correct it. Im still not going to. And yes ive noticed the grammar errors in this post too. Welcome to the internet age. In a few years people wont even be typing themselves
 

ScentOfDefeat

G.O.A.T.
Yeah posting online anonymously is brave. Especially about tennis. Sticking it to the man

Have you ever heard of semantics or semasiology?
One word can have different meanings, but also different degrees of intensity depending on the context.
"Brave" or "courageous" in this context is obviously not the bravery or courage of Achilles.
The bravery of confronting your fear of heights is not in the same scale as the bravery of charging enemy lines in WW1.

So the use of bravery in this context (if you want to be constructive rather than dismissive), while not entirely metaphorical, refers to the OP's unpopular but interesting idea - which is almost taboo in a board mostly dedicated to eulogising three current players - that this might not be "the golden age of tennis".
That's all.

But I suspect you already knew this.
 

ojo rojo

Legend
Have you ever heard of semantics or semasiology?
One word can have different meanings, but also different degrees of intensity depending on the context.
"Brave" or "courageous" in this context is obviously not the bravery or courage of Achilles.
The bravery of confronting your fear of heights is not in the same scale as the bravery of charging enemy lines in WW1.

So the use of bravery in this context (if you want to be constructive rather than dismissive), while not entirely metaphorical, refers to the OP's unpopular but interesting idea - which is almost taboo in a board mostly dedicated to eulogising three current players - that this might not be "the golden age of tennis".
That's all.

But I suspect you already knew this.

Of course I did - just pulling your plonker
 

Newballs

Professional
It's becoming clear over the last 18 months that we've been suffering for years from a mass delusion that we've been witnessing the golden age of the game.

Consider the list of tennis greats from 1980-95, and then compare to the list of tennis greats from 2003-2018.

1980-95: Borg, Connors, McEnroe, Lendl, Wilander, Noah, Becker, Edberg, Chang, Courier, Sampras, Agassi, Ivanisevic. Think of the variety of their technique; the extreme variety of their personalities; the extreme variety of the courts; the excitement of the changing of the guard when brilliant players of one generation were swept aside by brilliant players of the next generation. Think of the variety of legendary rivalries: Borg v Connors, Connors v McEnroe, Borg v McEnroe, McEnroe v Lendl, Becker v Edberg, Becker v Lendl, Courier v Agassi, Agassi v Sampras

And then consider the class of 03-18: Hewitt, Federer, Roddick, Nadal, Djokovic, Murray, Wawrinka. No real personalities; no on-court blow ups or laughs; surfaces all playing the same; players all playing from the baseline. Yes, some great matches, but usually of the attritional variety. Legendary rivalries? Federer V Nadal, Nadal v Djokovic, Djokovic v Federer. Great matches -but farcically repetitive.

We've been sold a pup. The golden age of tennis was late-70s to the mid-90s. The last fifteen years have been a mirage in which we've convinced ourselves we've been living in a golden era when, in fact, as the last 18 months have demonstrated, there is a tragic lack of strength in depth or variety in the game. The big 3 will always be considered 3 of the greatest players who ever lived-but in years to come we'll look back on this era as a repetitive and grinding come-down from the true glory days of tennis.
So let’s follow your ‘logic’ and tack another 2000 years onto it.
You didn’t say the tennis myth, you in fact said the myth...
 

junior74

Talk Tennis Guru
That's right. And in that time Borg took part in the greatest tennis match of all time(so good they turned it into a movie), a legendary US open final against the same rival (the Fire to Borg's ice), and one of the greatest Wimbledon semis of all-time against Connors. That's before we consider how monumental his eventual dethroning at Wimbledon was -we watched in a kind of stunned disbelief-and the astonishment when he walked away at the age of 26. Not to mention the tragic-comic coda when he attempted to return with his old wooden racquet after the entire game had switched to graphite. Brilliant stuff both on and off the court. Absolutely nothing to rival it in the last fifteen years.

I agree the field was deeper. I just think Borg had a less central role, since he won by far most of his slams in the 70s. But yes, the dethroning was huge. Borg and McEnroe were different type of stars than Fedal. More rock types.

You can't throw in Noah and Ivanisevic without mentioning Safin. He dethroned Sampras. And HE was a character!
 
I agree the field was deeper. I just think Borg had a less central role, since he won by far most of his slams in the 70s. But yes, the dethroning was huge. Borg and McEnroe were different type of stars than Fedal. More rock types.

You can't throw in Noah and Ivanisevic without mentioning Safin. He dethroned Sampras. And HE was a character!
Safin was indeed a character.
 

Mazz Retic

Hall of Fame
That's right. And in that time Borg took part in the greatest tennis match of all time(so good they turned it into a movie), a legendary US open final against the same rival (the Fire to Borg's ice), and one of the greatest Wimbledon semis of all-time against Connors. That's before we consider how monumental his eventual dethroning at Wimbledon was -we watched in a kind of stunned disbelief-and the astonishment when he walked away at the age of 26. Not to mention the tragic-comic coda when he attempted to return with his old wooden racquet after the entire game had switched to graphite. Brilliant stuff both on and off the court. Absolutely nothing to rival it in the last fifteen years.
Absolutely one of the best. But there are plenty of memorable finals/semis/quarters: Fed Nadal 2008, Fed Roddick 2009, Fed Djokovic 2014, Djokovic Nadal 2012, 2013, Wawrinka Djokovic 2013, 2014 to name a few.
 
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