The "Nadal and Djokovic have been each other's competition" myth

[GabeT]

It can get very irritating when fanatics keep bagging Roddick as though he was some mug and lumping him with the likes of Baghdatis. The guy was actually a really decent player, just unlucky his peak coincided with Fed's. If anyone watches some of his matches like say Wimby 2003/04/09 and that USO match in 2007 (posted above) and then says he's a mug, then that person is either trolling or knows squat about tennis. If only that same Roddick was around these last couple of years, what a 'breath of fresh air' he'd be for the game and us fans.

Non Fed fans also find irritating the constant allegations by (some? many? most?) Fed fans that this is a weak era and that Novak and Nadal’s wins are therefore not equivalent to Fed’s wins in the past. It’s an idiotic argument yet we have to hear it over and over and over again.

 

[mike danny]

It was the first time in his career that he came 2 sets 1 down in a Slam final against any opponent. He also came from match points down in the 2019 Wimbledon final and beat Nadal in an epic 5 setter. He did all those over 30 and was more impressive mentally than even when he was younger. Federer always struggled on big points, even when he was younger. The difference was he was so much better than most of his opposition that the matches hardly ever got close enough for them to take advantage of it.

Like I said, easier to be mentally tough against past prime Fedal, especially Fed at 38 than peak Djokovic.

 

[mike danny]

Non Fed fans also find irritating the constant allegations by (some? many? most?) Fed fans that this is a weak era and that Novak and Nadal’s wins are therefore not equivalent to Fed’s wins in the past. It’s an idiotic argument yet we have to hear it over and over and over again.

This is a response to all the weak era accusations started by Novak fans.

 

[NoleFam]

Like I said, easier to be mentally tough against past prime Fedal than peak Djokovic.

Nadal didn't play like he was past his prime and I disagree.

 

[tennisaddict]

If we take all biases out, the real weightage for the slam metric should be 1 real slam = 3 current era slams

 

[RF-18]

Like I said, easier to be mentally tough against past prime Fedal than peak Djokovic.

Jeez.......

 

[ForehandRF]

It was the first time in his career that he came 2 sets 1 down in a Slam final against any opponent. He also came from match points down in the 2019 Wimbledon final and beat Nadal in an epic 5 setter. He did all those over 30 and was more impressive mentally than even when he was younger. Federer always struggled on big points, even when he was younger. The difference was he was so much better than most of his opposition that the matches hardly ever got close enough for them to take advantage of it.

Fed struggled on big points and tight situations mostly against Djokovic from 2010 onwards.For example, he is 0-4 against Novak in 5 setters, having MP in 3 of them, but at the same time he is 3-3 against Nadal.

 

[RF-18]

Nadal didn't play like he was past his prime and I disagree.

He really just dismissed Nadals level in that SF and what Djoko had to do to win..

 

[Rosstour]

You act like Nadal was terrible during this period, but from 2015-present, he had 5 different runs as #1 adding up to 68 weeks in the top spot over this time and won 5 majors. 5 majors and 68 weeks at #1 are better than the entire careers of all but the top 20 players in the entire Open Era. Nadal is not terrible because Djokovic beat him but because Djokovic is just that good.

Since 2015 began, Rafa has one win over Federer, at RG19.

They have both had his number for a long time.

 

[mike danny]

Jeez.......

You Novak fans will never know since Novak doesn't and will never have such a player: a younger ATG. Everyone before him did.

 

[mike danny]

Nadal didn't play like he was past his prime and I disagree.

Nadal since 2017 <<< peak Djokovic. Federer has been mentally tough against this Nadal too.

 

[NoleFam]

Fed struggled on big points and tight situations mostly against Djokovic from 2010 onwards.For example, he is 0-4 against Novak in 5 setters, having MP in 3 of them, but at the same time he is 3-3 against Nadal.

True but at the end of 2012, he was 19-16 in 5 set matches which wasn't a terribly great record. He had lost a few to Djokovic but also Nalbandian, Safin, etc. He was a better front runner.

 

[NoleFam]

Nadal since 2017 <<< peak Djokovic. Federer has been mentally tough against this Nadal too.

Nadal was #1 in that match and had won the last 3/5 Slams. Djokovic was struggling after a terrible first half of the year and was ranked outside the top 15. Djokovic was by far struggling more mentally at that time and still won, so this idea that Djokovic had some advantage over Nadal at that time is reinvention.

 

[junior74]

Exactly. They still have to split the pie, unlike Cow who had the whole pie to himself 2003-2007.

Ah, Cow is Federer?

Cow split slams with Bull and Bear. Wolf and Bull only split with each other. They have no other opponents.

 

[ForehandRF]

True but at the end of 2012, he was 19-16 in 5 set matches which wasn't a terribly great record. He had lost a few to Djokovic but also Nalbandian, Safin, etc. He was a better front runner.

A better front runner and he used to come back and beat Djokovic again in a slam after the toughest losses like winning their 2011 FO match after the loss at the 2010 USO or winning their 2012 Wimby match after the loss at the 2011 USO.After the 2014 Wimby we know the story, which shows that he was not the same player anymore.

 

[duaneeo]

This is a response to all the weak era accusations started by Novak fans.

They can dish it out, but can't take it.

Nor can they admit the truth. As the poll shows, they consider Nadal as Nole's competition since 2015 (though they've avoided each other like the plague and have had few competitive matches when they have met). But we can assure that though Federer's main rival from 2004 - 2007 was Nadal (who he met at 5 slams (4 finals), 6 Masters (5 finals, 3 of them BO5), 2 YEC semifinals, and a 500 final), these same fans will call these years 'weak', and cherry-pick that Baghdatis and Gonzalez were Federer's rivals.

 

[swordtennis]

Federer became greater by playing longer and enhanced his legacy, but you would never know it by a lot of what some of his fans say.

 

[mike danny]

Nadal was #1 in that match and had won the last 3/5 Slams. Djokovic was struggling after a terrible first half of the year and was ranked outside the top 15. Djokovic was by far struggling more mentally at that time and still won, so this idea that Djokovic had some advantage over Nadal at that time is reinvention.

Ok, over Nadal I may be wrong.

But over Federer heck no. Federer didn't face some old man in those slam finals incapable of winning tiebreaks most of the time. It's easier to be mentally tough agaibst an old guy you know will falter.

 

[mike danny]

It was the first time in his career that he came 2 sets 1 down in a Slam final against any opponent. He also came from match points down in the 2019 Wimbledon final and beat Nadal in an epic 5 setter. He did all those over 30 and was more impressive mentally than even when he was younger. Federer always struggled on big points, even when he was younger. The difference was he was so much better than most of his opposition that the matches hardly ever got close enough for them to take advantage of it.

It's actually not a good look on Thiem that he is the first opponent against whom Djokovic has come back from 2 sets to 1 or 0 down in a slam final. It speaks more about him than about Djokovic.

 

[mike danny]

He really just dismissed Nadals level in that SF and what Djoko had to do to win..

Ok, fair enough. But that was about the only time recently he had to be supremely mentally tough.

 

[Spencer Gore]

Federer had a 2-9 record in slam meetings for the first decade of their rivalry. 0-8 off of grass.

Using the logic of this thread, he wasn't a rival to Nadal, presumably?

 

[JaoSousa]

Hard to make many UE when your opponent doesn't deliver.

Gonzalez only made 3 UE in the AO 2007 SF.

Wow, did not know that.

 

[Crisstti]

Rafa would have almost for sure won Wimbledon 2018 and the AO 2019 if not for Novak. Isn't that significant competition?

 

[mike danny]

Rafa would have almost for sure won Wimbledon 2018 and the AO 2019 if not for Novak. Isn't that significant competition?

Well, needing Nole to be out doesn't make him strong competition.

 

[kevaninho]

Mostly Federer and Murray. As said, Djokovic and Nadal won 15 slams since 2015, but only met 3 times (and in one final). That's a lot of winning without meeting each other.

You read my post wrong obviously. I asked who IS his main competition if it isn't Nadal ? Its certainly not Murray, and Federer is only competition at Wimbledon.

 

[AnOctorokForDinner]

You read my post wrong obviously. I asked who IS his main competition if it isn't Nadal ? Its certainly not Murray, and Federer is only competition at Wimbledon.

Nobody is Djokovic's main competition on HC. It doesn't exist anymore. On clay and grass it does (Nadal & Thiem, Federer & Nadal respectively).

 

[kevaninho]

Nobody is Djokovic's main competition on HC. It doesn't exist anymore. On clay and grass it does (Nadal & Thiem, Federer & Nadal respectively).

Unpopular opinion, as its a HC, but don't you think Nadal has his best chance on HC , at the USO in recent years against him?
Its a pity its not happened IMO.

 

[AnOctorokForDinner]

Unpopular opinion, as its a HC, but don't you think Nadal has his best chance on HC , at the USO in recent years against him?
Its a pity its not happened IMO.

Nadal can't win a set against Hardcourtovic in 6.5 years. Both times he won the USO recently, Djokovic was injured. Those two facts make me sceptical about Nadal beating a healthy Djokovic anywhere on HC.

 

[mike danny]

Unpopular opinion, as its a HC, but don't you think Nadal has his best chance on HC , at the USO in recent years against him?
Its a pity its not happened IMO.

Nadal hasn't won a set on HC ahainst Novak in 6 years. He was lucky they didn't meet at the USO for this streak to continue.

The lack of USO meetings post 2013 have created the illusion of Nadal superiority there.

 

[kevaninho]

Nadal can't win a set against Hardcourtovic in 6.5 years. Both times he won the USO recently, Djokovic was injured. Those two facts make me sceptical about Nadal beating a healthy Djokovic anywhere on HC.

No, im not claiming he'd be favourite. But I think he puts up a better fight.
You don't win 2 out of the last 3 US opens if youre not upto much on the surface.
Its different in Australia, where his record isn't up there.

 

[mike danny]

No, im not claiming he'd be favourite. But I think he puts up a better fight.
You don't win 2 out of the last 3 US opens if youre not upto much on the surface.
Its different in Australia, where his record isn't up there.

Well, Nadal has had tougher competition in AO finals than in USO finals, IMO.

 

[kevaninho]

Nadal hasn't won a set on HC ahainst Novak in 6 years. He was lucky they didn't meet at the USO for this streak to continue.

The lack of USO meetings post 2013 have created the illusion of Nadal superiority there.

Again, I don't think hes superior there. But I think it gives the most neutral match between them in recent years.
On clay, Nadal should still be favourite, and everywhere Djokovic is. No argument there.
But a USO meeting would've been nice along the way since Nadal has been going deep the last few years everytime.

 

[kevaninho]

Well, Nadal has had tougher competition in AO finals than in USO finals, IMO.

Yes, true. But he still should've won at least 1 more.
2012 he came close. Same as 2017, which he should've closed out, although Fed upped his game in the last set.
He was heavy favourite versus Stan also.
Only really 2019 Djokovic was he given very little chance.

 

[AnOctorokForDinner]

No, im not claiming he'd be favourite. But I think he puts up a better fight.
You don't win 2 out of the last 3 US opens if youre not upto much on the surface.
Its different in Australia, where his record isn't up there.

I'd expect Nadal to take a set, sure. :9

 

[mike danny]

Yes, true. But he still should've won at least 1 more.
2012 he came close. Same as 2017, which he should've closed out, although Fed upped his game in the last set.
He was heavy favourite versus Stan also.
Only really 2019 Djokovic was he given very little chance.

The same way I feel he shouldn't have gone 5 vs Medvedev in the USO final.

2010/2013 Nadal would have made quick work of him.

 

[StrongRule]

The same way I feel he shouldn't have gone 5 vs Medvedev in the USO final.

2010/2013 Nadal would have made quick work of him.

Medvedev was in scary form in that match.

 

[tennis_pro]

Rafa has beaten Djokovic in their last 3 clay meetings:
2017 Madrid, Nadal in straight sets.
2018 Rome, Nadal in straight sets.
2019 Rome, Nadal in the most lopsided 3-setter of their careers: 60 46 61.....and that is the first bagel ever recorded in their rivalry.
Djokovic is now a complete and utter LOSER on clay vs. Rafa

Amazing.

What's his record outside of clay since 2013 USO?

 

[tennis_pro]

Really? No wins off clay and no sets won on HC in 6 years doesn't exactly suggest Nadal is strong competition enough to compensate for the lack of strong younger players.

Dude hes also 0-6 against Fed outside of clay in the last 6 years. Nadal is back to his 2007 days. He can only win on clay plus the Berrettini Opens when daddys not home.

 

[Tony48]

It's hilarious (also desperate and pathetic) that the OP and others are trying to weaponize Djokovic's dominance against him. But whatever helps them sleep at night.

Federer's most acclaimed records are going down. And with that, he won't be considered the GOAT. And there is nothing that will change that. Certainly not these pathetic mental gymnastic-type threads that narrowly and unilateral determine what constitutes "competition."

These types of threads only highlight how this realization has been affecting his fans. It'll be a slow burn that will take place over the course of the next few years but...it will happen. It's best to just accept it.

 

[mike danny]

It's hilarious (also desperate and pathetic) that the OP and others are trying to weaponize Djokovic's dominance against him. But whatever helps them sleep at night.

Federer's most acclaimed records are going down. And with that, he won't be considered the GOAT. And there is nothing that will change that. Certainly not these pathetic mental gymnastic-type threads that narrowly and unilateral determine what constitutes "competition."

These types of threads only highlight how this realization has been affecting his fans. It'll be a slow burn that will take place over the course of the next few years but...it will happen. It's best to just accept it.

The facts are there to see. There are no mental gymnastics. Whether Djokovic is too good or Nadal has declined, the conclusion is the same: off clay Nadal isn't competition for Djokovic anymore like he used to be.

Djokovic fans have used Federer's dominance against him for years. Now it's their time to deal with it. Not my problem you Djokovic fams are too arrogant and think Djokovic is perfect without flaws.

 

[RS]

Medvedev was in scary form in that match.

No he was in good form. Scary form is Nadal of USO 2010 or something at the very least a little lower.

 

[mike danny]

No he was in good form. Scary form is Nadal of USO 2010 or something at the very least a little lower.

Exactly. Nadal would have made quick work of Medvedev in 2010/2013 form. No way he allows a 5th set in those forms.

 

[RS]

Exactly. Nadal would have made quick work of Medvedev in 2010/2013 form. No way he allows a 5th set in those forms.

Hard to say a score but i would like to think over before a 5th. So 4 sets maybe.

 

[Tony48]

The facts are there to see. There are no mental gymnastics. Whether Djokovic is too good or Nadal has declined, the conclusion is the same: off clay Nadal isn't competition for Djokovic anymore like he used to be.

Djokovic fans have used Federer's dominance against him for years. Now it's their time to deal with it. Not my problem you Djokovic fams are too arrogant and think Djokovic is perfect without flaws.

Federer dominated nobodies. There's a difference. You can't make that same argument with Djokovic. So you spin it to and try to make it seem as if an actual legend isn't competition. And in your head, that's supposed to be a bad thing. But in reality, being so good that you make a legend look average makes you look even better. That's why this thread is so sad.

 

[zagor]

Nadal can't win a set against Hardcourtovic in 6.5 years. Both times he won the USO recently, Djokovic was injured. Those two facts make me sceptical about Nadal beating a healthy Djokovic anywhere on HC.

Novak is not as good at USO as he is at AO. Maybe it's because of a higher bounce but I'd give Nadal a shot. Weak draws aside, it's clear the current surface suits his game.

Also think their 2019 AO meeting was a bit of an anomaly, Nadal usually puts up a better fight in a slam/BO5. It's BO3 HC where he gets dominated by his rivals when they're in top form.

 

[mike danny]

Federer dominated nobodies. There's a difference. You can't make that same argument with Djokovic. So you spin it to and try to make it seem as if an actual legend isn't competition. And in your head, that's supposed to be a bad thing. But in reality, being so good that you make a legend look average makes you look even better. That's why this thread is so sad.

So I'm sad that I'm calling legends weak competition, but you go on and call former world no.1s and slam champions nobodies...

If Djokovic is so damn good, why couldn't he make Nadal look weak in 2012-2013? Why couldn't he make Fed look weak in 2011-2012?

You're a sad Djokovic fanboy.

 

[Third Serve]

Federer dominated nobodies. There's a difference. You can't make that same argument with Djokovic. So you spin it to and try to make it seem as if an actual legend isn't competition. And in your head, that's supposed to be a bad thing. But in reality, being so good that you make a legend look average makes you look even better. That's why this thread is so sad.

I think a greater reason why this thread is sad is that you’ve got people inside it calling an entire generation of former #1 players “nobodies”.

 

[mike danny]

I think a greater reason why this thread is sad is that you’ve got people inside it calling an entire generation of former #1 players “nobodies”.

And apparently, Fedal are super legends these last few years, while Agassi and younger Nadal were nobodies.

 

[UnderratedSlam]

Bottom line is thst this rivalry has been done for a long time and some people don't acknowledge this. While Wimb 2018 SF was a great match, it's still not enough, as one flower doesn't make it spring.

Thoughts?

On Jupiter it would.

 

[Tony48]

So I'm sad that I'm calling legends weak competition, but you go on and call former world no.1s and slam champions nobodies...

Baghdatis, Gonzalez, and Philippoussis have never won a slam nor have ever been No. 1. In fact, they've never been in the top 4 (Baghdatis even worse).

And this doesn't even cover Masters events.