The new GOAT tiers

TeflonTom

Banned
modern tennis has fundamentally changed since homogenisation of surfaces. now, any player that spends any time at the top of the rankings will accumulate a large number of slams in a short period of time. look at the ratio of weeks at #1 to slams for someone like djokovic, n compare it to pre-fed number 1s. i think that future #1 will end up with similar CVs

the dynamics have changed so much in recent years i think that in the future, ppl will look back and say that it is as impossible to compare slams won by modern #1s to pre-federer guys as it is to compare open-era champs to the old greats.
 
Roger Federer has the 7th highest winning percentage at the French Open. Considering he's 0-5 against the all-time greatest at the FO, that's pretty impressive. In fact, if you remove the losses to Nadal, Federer would have the 3rd best winning percentage behind only Nadal and Borg. Federer is 54-13 at the FO, with 5 of those losses coming to Nadal (who's 54-1 - best ever) and 1 coming to Djokovic (who's ranked 9th best).

Another way to say this is that Federer is historically dominant on clay, except he's had the misfortune to play against a player who has dominated surface unlike anyone has dominated any surface.

BTW: Does anyone have all-time winning percentage on clay in general? For that matter grass and hardcourt as well?
 

timnz

Legend
My Tiers

Tier 1: Federer, Laver
Tier 2 Sampras, Tilden, Borg
Tier 3 Gonzales, Rosewall, Kramer, Budge, Vines, Lendl, Nadal, Agassi, McEnroe
Tier 4 Becker, Wilander, Edberg, Sedgman, Hoad (struggled with this one - at his peak he is tier 1 but he just didn't have the career achievement to warrant such a high ranking).
 

heftylefty

Hall of Fame
GOAT-O-Meter (Open Era)
Level 1: Laver, Federer
Level 1a: Borg
Level 2: Sampras, Agassi, Lendl, Mac
Level 2b*: Djoker, Rafa
Level 3: Connors, Wilander, Edberg, Becker

*Both players are on their way to Level 1a status.
 

TMF

Talk Tennis Guru
Roger Federer has the 7th highest winning percentage at the French Open. Considering he's 0-5 against the all-time greatest at the FO, that's pretty impressive. In fact, if you remove the losses to Nadal, Federer would have the 3rd best winning percentage behind only Nadal and Borg. Federer is 54-13 at the FO, with 5 of those losses coming to Nadal (who's 54-1 - best ever) and 1 coming to Djokovic (who's ranked 9th best).

Another way to say this is that Federer is historically dominant on clay, except he's had the misfortune to play against a player who has dominated surface unlike anyone has dominated any surface.

BTW: Does anyone have all-time winning percentage on clay in general? For that matter grass and hardcourt as well?

Roger does have an impressive record and clearly the 2nd best cc behind Nadal. His detractors are downgrading him because he can't be like Nadal, or being 2nd best isn't good enough to be dominant on clay. Well, take out Fed and put put any past great cc(eg Guga) playing in this generation at best he's behind Nadal, or being 2nd best. In that case he can't be a dominant cc player.

Another reason Fed is a victim of his immense success outside of clay. He dominated everywhere which overshadowed all of his clay run since 2005. Had Fed won nothing outside of clay and become a cc specialist, he gets more recognition, and not get overlooked.
 

TMF

Talk Tennis Guru
GOAT-O-Meter (Open Era)
Level 1: Laver, Federer
Level 1a: Borg
Level 2: Sampras, Agassi, Lendl, Mac
Level 2b*: Djoker, Rafa
Level 3: Connors, Wilander, Edberg, Becker

*Both players are on their way to Level 1a status.

I think Djoker still has a loooooooong way to go to reach 1a.

Also, how much more does Roger needs to win to bump ahead of Laver, atleast slightly ahead? Notice Roger continue to win and he and Laver are at the same level for years. Unless Roger doesn't win anymore, there has to be at some point where you have to put Roger ahead if he continue to win more.
 

Talker

Hall of Fame
Sampras looks to be getting shorted some.
True he had a big hole in his clay game but still had so many weeks at #1 which was done by being very dominant off of clay.

He is in the top tier of non-clay surfaces.
 

kragster

Hall of Fame
Roger Federer has the 7th highest winning percentage at the French Open. Considering he's 0-5 against the all-time greatest at the FO, that's pretty impressive. In fact, if you remove the losses to Nadal, Federer would have the 3rd best winning percentage behind only Nadal and Borg. Federer is 54-13 at the FO, with 5 of those losses coming to Nadal (who's 54-1 - best ever) and 1 coming to Djokovic (who's ranked 9th best).

Another way to say this is that Federer is historically dominant on clay, except he's had the misfortune to play against a player who has dominated surface unlike anyone has dominated any surface.

BTW: Does anyone have all-time winning percentage on clay in general? For that matter grass and hardcourt as well?

We can play the ' if we remove this player and that player " game all day but the fact of the matter is that players can only be rated on what happened not what could have happened. All the all time greats had factors that helped and factors that hurt them. If becker and Egberg had been in different generations they may each have more slams. If federer had not existed nadal might have been no 1 for 6 straight years! Ultimately what happened happened and your records are what they are.
 

tudwell

G.O.A.T.
I think Djoker still has a loooooooong way to go to reach 1a.

Also, how much more does Roger needs to win to bump ahead of Laver, atleast slightly ahead? Notice Roger continue to win and he and Laver are at the same level for years. Unless Roger doesn't win anymore, there has to be at some point where you have to put Roger ahead if he continue to win more.

I think he'd need another year-end No. 1 (this would give him six; Laver had seven) which could come this year if he should win the U.S. Open or something. I think he'd also need another Roland Garros. Laver was great on clay, beating Rosewall to win the French in 1969 and even beating Bjorn Borg on clay in 1974!
 
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NadalAgassi

Guest
We can play the ' if we remove this player and that player " game all day but the fact of the matter is that players can only be rated on what happened not what could have happened. All the all time greats had factors that helped and factors that hurt them. If becker and Egberg had been in different generations they may each have more slams. If federer had not existed nadal might have been no 1 for 6 straight years! Ultimately what happened happened and your records are what they are.

True, by **** logic if Federer didnt exist he would have 4 or 5 Wimbledons so should we rate him a top 4 grass courter all time based on that? Of course not. Same goes for Federer on clay. There is also no evidence the clay courters who rank in between Nadal and Federer in history on clay like Borg, Kuerten, Lendl, Wilander, Rosewall, and many others would do as poorly against Nadal as Federer does, even with Nadal being the clay GOAT. It is all speculation, maybe they would, maybe they wouldnt, what we do know is what they all won. Even Djokovic arguably does slightly better vs Nadal on clay than Federer, and he isnt even rated a top 30 clay courter all time at this point.
 

Bartelby

Bionic Poster
I'd agree with this but Sampras has to be in tier 1 and if you judged Borg by greatness then he'd have to be in tier 1 also despite the fact that he walked away too early to win all the acolades.

Nadal should join him in the next year and a half.



In my mind there are 15 'great' players that have featured in the open era, in chronological order; Rosewall, Laver, Newcombe, Connors, Borg, McEnroe, Lendl, Wilander, Edberg, Becker, Agassi, Sampras, Federer, Nadal and Djokovic.

With Rosewall and Laver there is the 'problem' that their career achievements are split between the amateur, pre open-era professional circuit and open eras. Also Newcombe's achievements are split between the amateur and open eras.

My guess would be (within each tier the players are listed in no particular order):

Tier 1 - Federer and Laver (neither of these two players has a big blemish on their career CVs in my opinion)
Tier 2 - Rosewall, Sampras, Borg and Nadal
Tier 3 - Connors, Lendl, McEnroe, Agassi and Newcombe
Tier 4 - Edberg, Becker, Wilander and Djokovic
 
We can play the ' if we remove this player and that player " game all day but the fact of the matter is that players can only be rated on what happened not what could have happened. All the all time greats had factors that helped and factors that hurt them. If becker and Egberg had been in different generations they may each have more slams. If federer had not existed nadal might have been no 1 for 6 straight years! Ultimately what happened happened and your records are what they are.

This is utter nonsense. It's called providing context and context is everything.

Results in tennis are a function of a player's execution, the opponent's execution, and luck. Luck, for the most part, will even out over a big enough sample, so we can ignore that. A player has control over his own execution but limited control over his opponent's execution. Thus, the outcome of any given point, game, set, match, and tournament is partly due to the individual and partly do to his opponent(s). Federer's outcomes on clay, more than any player ever, are uniquely shaped by the fact that he's faced the greatest clay court player ever so many times, especially in finals.

The point of all these GOAT debates is to either figure out who's the most talented or achieved the most or some abstract combination of talent/achievement. How do we determine that, given that we don't have any laboratory to figure it out? Well, we look history, and use analytical rigor in providing context for observable outcomes. That 5 of Federer's 13 losses at the French Open happened to Nadal (4 of which in the Finals, 1 of which in the SF) means something different than if Federer lost to random players. Put another way, losing to Nadal in the French Open finals is the most impressive achievement you can do at a tournament short of actually winning. Losing to Nadal in the French Open finals is a remarkably more impressive achievement than, say, Renshaw winning Wimbledon when he received an automatic bye to the finals. It does not take much brain power to realize this.

You are correct that it's not entirely fair to "remove Nadal" for Federer and not remove other greats' biggest rivals. The best analysis would consider that. However, I don't have the time to go through and figure that out and I'm fairly confident that no great player has ever been damaged by one particular foe, particularly on one surface, like Federer has with Nadal on clay. Thus, when trying to determine abstract, vague notions like "dominance on clay," you need to consider the context of a player's wins and losses on the surface. In order to do so, you need to be aware of who a player beat and was beat by.
 
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kragster

Hall of Fame
This is utter nonsense. It's called providing context and context is everything.

Results in tennis are a function of a player's execution, the opponent's execution, and luck. Luck, for the most part, will even out over a big enough sample, so we can ignore that. A player has control over his own execution but limited control over his opponent's execution. Thus, the outcome of any given point, game, set, match, and tournament is party due to the individual and party do to his opponent(s). Federer's outcomes on clay, more than any player ever, is uniquely shaped by the fact that he's faced the greatest clay court player ever so many times, especially in finals.

The point of all these GOAT debates is to either figure out who's the most talented or achieved the most or some abstract combination of talent/achieve. How do we determine that, given that we don't have any laboratory to figure it out? Well, we look history, and use analytical rigor in providing context for observable outcomes. That 5 of Federer's 13 losses at the French Open happened to Nadal (4 of which in the Finals, 1 of which in the SF) means something different than if Federer lost to random players. Put another way, losing to Nadal in the French Open finals is the most impressive achievement you can do at a tournament short of actually winning. Losing to Nadal in the French Open finals is a remarkably more impressive achievement than, say, Renshaw winning Wimbledon when he received an automatic bye to the finals. It does not take much brain power to realize this.

You are correct that it's not entirely fair to "remove Nadal" for Federer and not remove other greats' biggest rivals. The best analysis would consider that. However, I don't have the time to go through and figure that out and I'm fairly confident that no great player has ever been damaged by one particular foe, particularly on one surface, like Federer has with Nadal on clay. Thus, when trying to determine abstract, vague notions like "dominance on clay," you need to consider the context of a player's wins and losses on the surface. In order to do so, you need to be aware of who a player beat and was beat by.

I completely agree with the intent of what you're saying, at the end of the day every big statistic can be broken down into little statistics. However in order to level the playing field and be fair to all, you will have to do what ifs with every player. And thats just not practical. What if laver had access to the nutrition and training regimen that current players do... Etc etc. Also that 5 of 13 losses of fed were to nadal is a fact but that ' he would have won those finals had he faced someone else' is not a fact, it is subjective.

I am not opposed to defining a dominance statistic such as " number of players you lost to on the surface". Perfectly valid stat that will likely show fed to be dominant on clay. As long as the stat is uniformly defined and implemented for all players it's a valid stat and when used in combination with other stats, provides enough context to assess a player.
 
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DTL

New User
I'm going strictly by accomplishments alone; don't want to debate subjective crap like peak level, "what ifs" etc.

Tier I
Laver -- for 2 Grandslams
Federer -- pretty much at the top of most meaningful records (slams, time @ #1, versatilitydominance over all surfaces), career slam
Borg (*) -- weak case for inclusion here, but that's because there's no one in this bucket that his career can directly be compared to.

Tier II
Sampras -- dominance over 2 surfaces, but bad on one. Unfortunately for Sampras, given that Federer's and his careers can be compared, there's no way to put him in the same bucket as Federer, as Federer as equalled/surpassed most of his records.
Nadal -- dominance over 2 sufaces, career slam (could be bumped to tier I as he's still active)
Borg -- dominance over 2 surfaces
Lendl (*) -- weak case for inclusion

Tier III
Lendl, McEnroe, Djoker (*), Becker(*), Edberg(*), Wilander (*), Agassi, Jimbo

Nadal dominant over 2 surfaces? Which ones?
 

zagor

Bionic Poster
OP I pretty much agree with your assessment. I'm pleasantly surprised you didn't put Sampras at Tier 6 given your love for him :D

My only changes would be that Agassi/Connors should definitely be added to Tier 3 and Borg should not be in Tier 1. At the end of the day, the reason Borg is regarded so highly is because of these 'peak' kind of discussions. We like to glorify those who achieve a lot at a young age. However I think that if you consider longevity as a factor then it basically cancels out peak and what you are left with at the end of the day is total accomplishments irrespective of how quickly or how late you got there. At 11 slams and no AO's/USOs Borg is definitely a high tier 2 (like Sampras) but not a Tier 1.

Djokovic is one of my favorite players but at the moment I don't think he deserves Tier 3 yet. Perhaps after 1-2 more slam wins.

That's hardly the whole story, Borg is regarded so highly primarily because he did something that no one else did before or since, outright dominate (won 5 Wimbledons in a row and 6 FO titles overall) two completely different and polarized surfaces switching between playing styles depending on whether he was playing FO (baseline grinding) or Wimbledon (a ton of serve and volley), no player has ever shown to be that adaptable.

Furthemore, I disagree with your longevity argument, Borg won atleast a slam a year for 8 straight years, that's reasonable longevity in my book (same as say Sampras).

Regarding his slam count and him retiring early we also have to consider that:

-Borg didn't receive nowhere near the pampered treatment today's stars have, if he did it's reasonable to expect he would have not retired.

-AO didn't have nearly as much as weight as it does nowadays (Borg played it only once as a 17 year old), Fed for example has 4 AO titles.

Borg also reached 4 slam finals in his worst slam-USO (compared to Sampras for example who reached only one FO SF) and was a terrific player on indoor carpet, a surface on which I reckon most top players today would have struggled immensely (heck, just look at the outrage about blue clay to see how used to homogenization of the surfaces/conditions top stars are these days).

So yeah, long story short I definitely consider Borg to be in Tier 1.
 
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NadalAgassi

Guest
I do not consider Borg to be in tier 1. He didnt win 2 of the 4 slams and quit in the middle of his career. He got to play the U.S Open on 3 different surfaces during his slam winning years and still couldnt win even one, even though he played annually. Even his pigeon Vilas managed it, and did it doing something Borg failed to ever do, beat Connors in a U.S Open final (and a prime or close to prime Borg even got the chance on clay no less, albeit green clay, and failed). He is no longer the top clay courter of all time either, a title now indisputably held by Nadal. I wouldnt even rank him above Nadal at this point. In the event Sampras (who is definitely above Borg) and Nadal are not tier 1, Borg isnt either.

My tiers would be (players in no particular order in the tiers):

Tier 1: Laver, Sampras, Federer, Rosewall
Tier 2: Nadal, Borg, Gonzales, Budge, Tilden
Tier 3: Perry, Vines, Kramer, Connors, Lendl
Tier 4: McEnroe, Agassi, Hoad, Cochet, LaCoste, Doherty
Tier 5: Crawford, Sedgeman, Trabert, Wilander, Becker, Edberg, Djokovic, Newcombe
 
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merlinpinpin

Hall of Fame
Okay, let's play this:

Tier 1 (in chronological order):
Tilden
Gonzales
Rosewall
Laver
Federer

Tier 2 (in chronological order)
Budge
Connors
Borg
Lendl
Sampras
Nadal

Tier 3 (in chonological order)
Vines
Perry
Hoad
McEnroe
Agassi

(I may add a couple more to tier 3 if I really thought about it, but these are the ones that come to mind...)
 
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I do not consider Borg to be in tier 1. He didnt win 2 of the 4 slams and quit in the middle of his career. He got to play the U.S Open on 3 different surfaces during his slam winning years and still couldnt win even one, even though he played annually. Even his pigeon Vilas managed it, and did it doing something Borg failed to ever do, beat Connors in a U.S Open final (and a prime or close to prime Borg even got the chance on clay no less, albeit green clay, and failed). He is no longer the top clay courter of all time either, a title now indisputably held by Nadal. I wouldnt even rank him above Nadal at this point. In the event Sampras (who is definitely above Borg) and Nadal are not tier 1, Borg isnt either.

My tiers would be (players in no particular order in the tiers):

Tier 1: Laver, Sampras, Federer, Rosewall
Tier 2: Nadal, Borg, Gonzales, Budge, Tilden
Tier 3: Perry, Vines, Kramer, Connors, Lendl
Tier 4: McEnroe, Agassi, Hoad, Cochet, LaCoste, Doherty
Tier 5: Crawford, Sedgeman, Trabert, Wilander, Becker, Edberg, Djokovic, Newcombe


Agreed on Borg.. But putting Sampras and Rosewall in the same tier as Fed is pure lunacy... Read this link for a good hour http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ATP_World_Tour_records#cite_note-3
and go through this one for another hour
http://www.atpworldtour.com/Reliability-Zone/Reliability-Overall-Current-List.aspx

and come back and tell us this same B.S... Your opinion at best would be categorized in the super minority (1-3 %) anywhere you post this garbage.

Laver belonged to a different era, what he accomplished in that era is comparable to what Fed has done in his, thus the respect the Rocket gets.. But based on statistical data, you could argue against him being in that top tier as well with half as many matches played as Fed.
 

TMF

Talk Tennis Guru
^^When Federer wins the Grand Slam, he moves ahead of Laver...maybe.
I disagree. The GS is only one criteria and you can't say the only way to be #1 this criteria is a be-all and end-all and it must be met, regardless if another player win 30 slams or end the year 15 times. It's like saying a player can only surpass Federer he has to win at least 50 matches at all the slams. Great accomplishment, but that's only one criteria. See my point?


I think he'd need another year-end No. 1 (this would give him six; Laver had seven) which could come this year if he should win the U.S. Open or something. I think he'd also need another Roland Garros. Laver was great on clay, beating Rosewall to win the French in 1969 and even beating Bjorn Borg on clay in 1974!

Reasonable post, although I don't fully agree. Laver's 5 of his 7 year end #1 was before the open era, or when there was two fields(amateur & pro). That's why historians have Sampras 6 yrs #1 is a benchmark. So I don't think Fed needs another yr #1.

Most fans say Fed is the greatest, some say both Fed/Laver are equally #1. However I don't understand why fed/laver are equal for the past years given that some fans have said they are equal back in 2009. Since 2009, Fed won 15, 16 and then 17 slams, yet they are still equal today.
 

tudwell

G.O.A.T.
Reasonable post, although I don't fully agree. Laver's 5 of his 7 year end #1 was before the open era, or when there was two fields(amateur & pro). That's why historians have Sampras 6 yrs #1 is a benchmark. So I don't think Fed needs another yr #1.

True, but I don't think that made the pro tour much weaker. Look at how much Laver dominated the amateur tour in 1962. He got a harsh awakening once he turned pro.

The pro tour was certainly different from today's tour. There were far fewer people, but they were all also the best players in the world. It would be like every tournament is the WTF, and Laver still managed to dominate and win pro slam after pro slam, tournament after tournament, and series after series.

The dawning of the Open Era just proved that the pro tour was made up of the best guys. Even playing against both the pros he'd dominated and the amateurs he hadn't had a chance to play, Laver won five of the first seven open slams and finished the first two years of open tennis as the number one ranked player, and most sources have him tied for first in 1970 as well (with Rosewall, another pro, and Newcombe as his co-number ones). So I don't think being pro those years diminishes his record in any way. He was the best player in the world for six, even seven years, and there's no two ways about it.
 

tudwell

G.O.A.T.
I do not consider Borg to be in tier 1. He didnt win 2 of the 4 slams and quit in the middle of his career. He got to play the U.S Open on 3 different surfaces during his slam winning years and still couldnt win even one, even though he played annually. Even his pigeon Vilas managed it, and did it doing something Borg failed to ever do, beat Connors in a U.S Open final (and a prime or close to prime Borg even got the chance on clay no less, albeit green clay, and failed). He is no longer the top clay courter of all time either, a title now indisputably held by Nadal. I wouldnt even rank him above Nadal at this point. In the event Sampras (who is definitely above Borg) and Nadal are not tier 1, Borg isnt either.

My tiers would be (players in no particular order in the tiers):

Tier 1: Laver, Sampras, Federer, Rosewall
Tier 2: Nadal, Borg, Gonzales, Budge, Tilden
Tier 3: Perry, Vines, Kramer, Connors, Lendl
Tier 4: McEnroe, Agassi, Hoad, Cochet, LaCoste, Doherty
Tier 5: Crawford, Sedgeman, Trabert, Wilander, Becker, Edberg, Djokovic, Newcombe

I'm interested why you have Gonzales Tier 2 but Sampras Tier 1. They're very similar guys to my mind with very similar games and, as a result, similar results (domination on grass and fast hard courts). Gonzales also won at least 19 clay tournaments as both an amateur and a pro and dominated the game for a longer period of time (8 years to 6), so I'm curious what you find to be sufficient flaws in his resume to bump him down.
 

Steve132

Professional
Agreed on Borg.. But putting Sampras and Rosewall in the same tier as Fed is pure lunacy... Read this link for a good hour http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ATP_World_Tour_records#cite_note-3
and go through this one for another hour
http://www.atpworldtour.com/Reliability-Zone/Reliability-Overall-Current-List.aspx

and come back and tell us this same B.S... Your opinion at best would be categorized in the super minority (1-3 %) anywhere you post this garbage.

Laver belonged to a different era, what he accomplished in that era is comparable to what Fed has done in his, thus the respect the Rocket gets.. But based on statistical data, you could argue against him being in that top tier as well with half as many matches played as Fed.

Agreed. Sampras was neither versatile enough nor dominant enough to be ranked in Tier 1. His relative lack of success on clay has been discussed in this thread. However, it should also be noted that even in his best years he was never as dominant as Laver in 1969, Connors in 1974, Borg in 1979-80, Lendl in 1986-87, Federer in 2004-6, Nadal in 2010 or Djokovic in 2011.

As for Rosewall, his GOAT candidacy attracts far more support in this forum than it does anywhere else. No one doubts his place in the pantheon, but even his contemporaries (including names such as Kramer, Bollettierri, Laver and Newcombe) do not and never did consider him to be the GOAT.
 

ZeroSkid

Banned
Except for obviously grass and indoor hard courts. But let's not let facts get in your way.

That is why he beat Federer in 2008 Wimbledon, indoor hard court in not a surface, it is just a hard court indoors, Federer is good with a roof or indoors, I will give you that
 
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NadalAgassi

Guest
I'm interested why you have Gonzales Tier 2 but Sampras Tier 1. They're very similar guys to my mind with very similar games and, as a result, similar results (domination on grass and fast hard courts). Gonzales also won at least 19 clay tournaments as both an amateur and a pro and dominated the game for a longer period of time (8 years to 6), so I'm curious what you find to be sufficient flaws in his resume to bump him down.

The only major event Gonzales dominated even in the pros ws the U.S Pro. He only dominated the Wembley Pro a short time as one of the newest pros from 1950 to 1952. After 1952 he managed only ONE more Wembly Pro, losing frequently to Sedgeman, Segura, or Hoad. Sampras dominated both Wimbledon and the U.S Open for years in a way Gonzales didnt at the Pro Wembly event. Gonzales has never won a major title on clay so really is not better on that surface in any significant way either. He coudlnt even beat Sedgeman and Trabert in finals, hardly clay court legends, to win a French Pro title.

Add to that people will never give the same recognition to pro achievements as amateur, since lets face it if they were credited exactly the same nobody would have ever been saying Federer or Sampras was the GOAT, as pro achievements equally valued would have the careers of Laver and Rosewall on another planet from theirs combining their amateur and pro achievements. Gonzales has by far the least amateur achievements out of all Pre Open Era greats- Laver, Tilden, Budge, Rosewall, Perry even Kramer.
 
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Steve132

Professional
That is why he beat Federer in 2008 Wimbledon, indoor hard court in not a surface, it is just a hard court indoors, Federer is good with a roof or indoors, I will give you that

If this is the criterion both Berdych and Tsonga are dominant on grass.

To date Federer has won 16 majors played outdoors without a roof. Let us know when Nadal or anyone else matches this total.
 

sunof tennis

Professional
If this is the criterion both Berdych and Tsonga are dominant on grass.

To date Federer has won 16 majors played outdoors without a roof. Let us know when Nadal or anyone else matches this total.

Fed still leads the H2H on grass 2-1 (same as 17 is greater than 11)
 

mcenroefan

Hall of Fame
There is no such creature as a GOAT but I will say you pay far too little credit to Connors:

From his wiki page

Peak years

Connors won eight Grand Slam singles championships: five U.S. Opens, two Wimbledons, one Australian Open. He did not participate in the French Open during his peak years (1974–78 ), only played in two Australian Opens in his entire career, winning it in 1974 and reaching the final in 1975.
Connors reached the final of the US Open in five straight years from 1974 through 1978, winning three times with each win being on a different surface (1974 on grass, 1976 on clay and 1978 on hard). He reached the final of Wimbledon four out of five years during his peak (1974, 1975, 1977 and 1978). Despite not being allowed to play in the French Open in his prime, he was still able to reach the semifinals four times in his later years.In 1974, Connors was by far the most dominant player. He had a stunning 99–4 record that year and won 15 tournaments, including all the Grand Slam singles titles except the French Open.[/B] The French Open did not allow Connors to participate due to his association with World Team Tennis (WTT). However, he won the Australian Open, defeating Phil Dent in four sets. He also beat Ken Rosewall in straight sets in the finals of both Wimbledon and the US Open. His exclusion from the French Open may have prevented him from becoming the first man player since Rod Laver to win all four Major singles titles in a calendar year.In the open era, Connors is one of only six men to win three or more Grand Slam singles titles in a calendar year. Others include: Rod Laver who won the Grand Slam in 1969; Mats Wilander won the Australian, French and US Open in 1988; Roger Federer won the Australian, Wimbledon and US Open in 2004, 2006 and 2007; Rafael Nadal won the French, Wimbledon, and US Open in 2010; and Novak Djokovic won the Australian, Wimbledon, and US Open in 2011.

Connors reached the world no. 1 ranking on July 29, 1974 and held it for 160 consecutive weeks (a record until it was surpassed by Roger Federer on February 26, 2007). He was considered the year-end no. 1 player from 1974 through 1978 and held the world no. 1 ranking for a total of 268 weeks during his career.
 
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mcenroefan

Hall of Fame
As the above illustrates, total GS's is but one measure...add in world #1 ranking. total tourneys won, etc etc.

Put simply, under today's standards flying by private jet to all the slams, masters' shields, etc, Connor's adjusted stats would be staggering. As to comparison against active players, the only active player who I consider greater at this point would be Fed....none of the others have Connor's resume and demonstrated excellence across all surfaces.

Keep in mind that many of these "adjustments" apply to many of the other greats of the 60's-early 80's as well.

Here's some on Connors' record against Borg:

"During his best years of 1974 through 1978, Connors was challenged the most by Borg, with twelve matches on tour during that timeframe. Borg won only four of those meetings, but two of those wins were in the Wimbledon finals of 1977 and 1978. Connors lost his stranglehold on the top ranking to Borg in early 1979 and eventually ended up with a tour record of 8-15 against Borg. However, Borg is four years younger than Connors and had a losing record against Connors until Borg won the last ten times they met. Head to head in major championship finals, they split their four meetings, Borg winning two Wimbledons (1977 & 1978 ) and Connors winning two US Opens (1976 & 1978 )."

I have forgotten how many AO's Borg and Mac played.
 
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N

NadalAgassi

Guest
Connors's biggest problem is that from 1975 to 1981, he managed only 2 slam wins in 7 years. Even if he didnt play every single slam (and it is not like he was likely ever winning the French except maybe in 74, and he did play the Australian in 74 and 75), that is a pretty weak stat for an 8 slam winner, let alone a potential double digit slam winner.

I think he is rated about right by the OP, virtually everyone else, and historians in general. At roughly the same level as Lendl, and definitely a level below Borg. Even if Connors spent more time as computer #1, he wasnt widely recognized as the best player all the time he was ranked there, and most everyone agrees Borg was clearly the best player of that era. I couldnt see Connors ranking in the same tier as Borg. McEnroe at his best was better than all of Borg, Connors, and Lendl, but didnt sustain it enough years.

I would totally disagree he belongs above someone like Nadal, and I think almost no historians would rank Connors above Nadal at this point. Nadal is more dominant on clay than Connors was on any surface, won atleast one major title for atleast 8 years going now (and even the year he didnt win the French still kept the streak alive), ended the year ranked in the top 2 for 7 years running now. As for all surface prowess Connors failed to reach a single French Open final, and I dont buy the idea he was a lock to have done so even had he played before 1979 when he was still considered in his prime and failed in numerous attemps thereafter, red clay is nothing like the green play he was quite strong at in the U.S Open. Nadal has atleast made finals multiple times at all slams, and won each one already.

Djokovic has to behind Connors now but if he wins a French and reaches 8-9 slams he has to be pushed ahead as well, or atleast into the same tier.
 
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leonidas1982

Hall of Fame
http://www.thetennisspace.com/opinion/federers-coach-i-laugh-at-peoples-opinions/

The Tennis Space

Saturday, 30 June 2012

Exclusive interview with Paul Annacone, Roger Federer’s coach, who used to work with Pete Sampras.

Annacone has told The Tennis Space that it is impossible to say whether Federer at his peak would have beaten Sampras at his peak: “If Roger played Pete at his peak, who knows what would happen? When people make strong arguments, I just laugh. I consider myself a tennis expert, but you just can’t compare two eras like that. It gets me emotionally frustrated when people make snap judgements like that.”

Annacone on how Sampras would fare in 2012: “I was talking about this the other day with Severin Luthi, who coaches Roger with me. We were talking about how the game has changed. I never saw Pete play in these conditions so I don’t know how he would play. I saw Roger when he was younger in fast conditions. What’s really intriguing is to wonder how Roger and Pete would have played if they had played against each other for, say, six years? That’s what was so great about Pete and Andre, and about Roger and Rafa. The players evolve, and the conditions evolve. Rod Laver would have been great whichever era he was in. He would have figured that out. Pete would have been great in this era but he would have had to figure it out. Roger would have been great back in Rod Laver’s era but it would have been a different time.”

Annacone on why he becomes frustrated when others make “snap judgements” about a match-up between two players from different eras: “The subjective evaluations… I consider myself a tennis expert, but I find it difficult to project because it’s two different games. If Pete was to play Roger or Rafa or Novak, here in 2012, it would be a totally different game. You don’t know how Pete would have evolved, and how his game would have changed. He wouid have been great. I don’t mean to give you a non-answer, but when people try to compare era, it’s apples and oranges. It’s a different game.

“What I do believe in, from the bottom of my heart, is that great players will be great players, whichever era they’re in. You can’t project or predict how Laver would have done against Roger. Who knows? The rivalries within the own eras are so interesting. I got to sit in the front row for eight years watching Andre and Pete, the ebbs and flows, the little subtle changes here and there, and what they were doing to adapt. That’s what made it great. If Roger played Pete at his peak, who knows what would happen? When people make strong arguments, I just laugh. People say, ‘Andre would never lose to Rafa on grass’, and I say: ‘Why? How do you know that?’ I’m a tennis expert and I don’t know that. People say, ‘Rafa would never ever lose to Borg on clay’, and you think: ‘Why?’

“The technology is so different now, and how good would Borg be with the technology? Who knows? It’s very easy to say, ‘that would never happen – he’s just a better version of that guy’. You don’t know that.

“That gets me emotionally frustrated when people are quick to made snap judgements. You see these lists of the 20 greatest players of all time, and they’re all ranked. You can put them in a pile, but just can’t rank them, you can’t do that. You can rank their accomplishments, on pure numbers of slams won, you can say that, that’s inarguable. But you can’t say he’s at No 7, and he’s at No 4, and Roger’s at No 1. It’s a totally different game. It makes for great conversation, though.”
 

The_Order

G.O.A.T.
Ah another greatness measurement debate.

Look I think it's quite obvious which Tier the players in the open era belong to:

Tier1:

Federer - Has most slams, career grand slam, most weeks at #1, been utterly dominant (even though I think his competition was relatively weak from 04-07) and has been incredibly consistent.

Sampras - Has accumulated the second highest amount of slams, weeks at #1 and dominated his field

Laver - The only player with an open era Grand Slam

Tier2:

Borg - Dominated Wimbledon and RG for years. Had 11 slams at IINM 25 years old.

Nadal - Career Grand Slam, most wins at one particular major (7RG and counting), most Masters titles, Olympic SINGLES gold, 2 wins away from making Federer his Turkey, has 11 slams and is just 26.

Tier 3 (imo, you need at least 10 majors to go to Tier 2):

McEnroe
Djokovic
Lendl
Agassi
Wilander
 

mcenroefan

Hall of Fame
Connors's biggest problem is that from 1975 to 1981, he managed only 2 slam wins in 7 years. Even if he didnt play every single slam (and it is not like he was likely ever winning the French except maybe in 74, and he did play the Australian in 74 and 75), that is a pretty weak stat for an 8 slam winner, let alone a potential double digit slam winner.

I think he is rated about right by the OP, virtually everyone else, and historians in general. At roughly the same level as Lendl, and definitely a level below Borg. Even if Connors spent more time as computer #1, he wasnt widely recognized as the best player all the time he was ranked there, and most everyone agrees Borg was clearly the best player of that era. I couldnt see Connors ranking in the same tier as Borg. McEnroe at his best was better than all of Borg, Connors, and Lendl, but didnt sustain it enough years.

I would totally disagree he belongs above someone like Nadal, and I think almost no historians would rank Connors above Nadal at this point. Nadal is more dominant on clay than Connors was on any surface, won atleast one major title for atleast 8 years going now (and even the year he didnt win the French still kept the streak alive), ended the year ranked in the top 2 for 7 years running now. As for all surface prowess Connors failed to reach a single French Open final, and I dont buy the idea he was a lock to have done so even had he played before 1979 when he was still considered in his prime and failed in numerous attemps thereafter, red clay is nothing like the green play he was quite strong at in the U.S Open. Nadal has atleast made finals multiple times at all slams, and won each one already.

Djokovic has to behind Connors now but if he wins a French and reaches 8-9 slams he has to be pushed ahead as well, or atleast into the same tier.

From 1974-1978, Connors entered a total of 12 GS events. He reached the finals of 11 of those events. He won 5 of those events. He most likely would have won the true Grand Slam if allowed to enter the 1974 FO. His win-loss record in those 12 GS’s was 73-7.

He has far more weeks at #1 than Nadal. He was a dominant #1 ranked player of his era which has eluded, and probably always will elude, Nadal.

He has won far more tourneys than Nadal and, by anyone’s estimate, far more “adjusted” master’s shields than Nadal. He played far fewer GS’s in his prime than Nadal. Nadal has never had a season that can remotely compare with the 99-4 compiled by Connors in 1974. He won across multiple surfaces and did all of this against many other true legends of the game (against a deeper field than most believe exists today.)

During Nadal's "prime," two of his rivals (not one, but two) put up better years on multiple occassions than he has been able to muster even once during his career. I'm not sure that we could say the same about Connors.

Nadal still has history to write but to say Nadal is far above Connors at this point give Nadal too much credit and Connors too little credit. Of course, "modern analysis" will always favor the current players at the expense of the past players. This phenomenon will vex the legends of Fed, Nadal, and Nole 20 years from now.
 
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tudwell

G.O.A.T.
The only major event Gonzales dominated even in the pros ws the U.S Pro. He only dominated the Wembley Pro a short time as one of the newest pros from 1950 to 1952. After 1952 he managed only ONE more Wembly Pro, losing frequently to Sedgeman, Segura, or Hoad. Sampras dominated both Wimbledon and the U.S Open for years in a way Gonzales didnt at the Pro Wembly event. Gonzales has never won a major title on clay so really is not better on that surface in any significant way either. He coudlnt even beat Sedgeman and Trabert in finals, hardly clay court legends, to win a French Pro title.

Add to that people will never give the same recognition to pro achievements as amateur, since lets face it if they were credited exactly the same nobody would have ever been saying Federer or Sampras was the GOAT, as pro achievements equally valued would have the careers of Laver and Rosewall on another planet from theirs combining their amateur and pro achievements. Gonzales has by far the least amateur achievements out of all Pre Open Era greats- Laver, Tilden, Budge, Rosewall, Perry even Kramer.

Okay, that makes sense. I think you undersell him on clay, though. He may not have won the big one, but he beat Segura, Sedgman, Hoad, Rosewall (in 65!), and Laver (in 66!!!) to win clay titles. Sampras beat Becker to win his one clay Masters title. Gonzales beating Rosewall in 65 on clay is like Sampras playing until 2005 or later and beating Nadal on clay, even if it's in a relatively minor event.

I'll also point out he has three wins and a final in the only four editions of the Tournament of Champions, often regarded as a pro major for the years in which it occurred. Also, the French Pro was not even held until well into his reign as No. 1, and even when it was, he only played it twice in that time. He won plenty of other clay titles, so I don't think his lack of success at the French Pro is indicative of his lack of clay court prowess the way it is for Sampras who repeatedly tried and failed at the French and never even made a final. It's more akin to Rosewall's failure to win Wimbledon, a tournament he definitely was capable of winning.

And regarding the Wembley Pro, like the French it was not always held in his prime or he didn't participate. If we look at the years he finished number one, he only played the tournament four times, with two wins and two semifinals. Looking at his career as a whole, he won four out of five Wembley Pros held between 1950 and 1956, with the one other result being a final. That seems pretty dominant to me.
 
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