The worst choke ever?

lrdrdy

Rookie
2007 USO Final. Probably has a case for worst choke ever right? Or at the very least in a Grand Slam Final.

Djokovic serving for the set up 40-0...
Blows 5 set points in that game. One point in particular Feds ball was very nearly out, even so that the commentator questioned it. Loses the set in a tiebreak.

Second set, Novak is up a break but loses it, has 2 set points on Feds serve late anyway...
Blows both set points, with the second one having this margin..
Loses the game, and then the set in a tiebreak. Could very well be up 2 sets instead of down.

And finally, he loses the match on whatever the hell this was.

A difference of a few inches and the GSF H2H could be 5-0:oops:
Nole straightened up and closed out all sets vs Fed the very next slam, so this loss did not linger long, but still a huge chokejob.

So worst ever or no? Discuss
 

lrdrdy

Rookie
2019 Wimbledon final.
Could be 6-3 6-1 6-4 for fed
Ended up 7-6 1-6 7-6 4-6 13-12 for nole

The best mentally clutch ATG vs the least clutch ATG.
Maybe, but most of those deciding points were on Nole's racquet, Fed didnt choke as much as Nole was clutch (imo). In this one, almost all of the lost opportunities are due to Nole's poor play under pressure.
 

daphne

Hall of Fame
2007 USO Final. Probably has a case for worst choke ever right? Or at the very least in a Grand Slam Final.

Djokovic serving for the set up 40-0...
Blows 5 set points in that game. One point in particular Feds ball was very nearly out, even so that the commentator questioned it. Loses the set in a tiebreak.

Second set, Novak is up a break but loses it, has 2 set points on Feds serve late anyway...
Blows both set points, with the second one having this margin..
Loses the game, and then the set in a tiebreak. Could very well be up 2 sets instead of down.

And finally, he loses the match on whatever the hell this was.

A difference of a few inches and the GSF H2H could be 5-0:oops:
Nole straightened up and closed out all sets vs Fed the very next slam, so this loss did not linger long, but still a huge chokejob.

So worst ever or no? Discuss
As a new user refrain from creating new silly threads until you gain some experience. This way you are just too funny. Have you been banned before? If not, keep quiet :)
 

swordtennis

G.O.A.T.
Brutal stuff.
Nole' has had many a gaff, beat downs and chokes.
As he stated in his excellent interview with Graham Bensiger these brutal losses are a learning experience and without them he would never had have to go to drawing board and improve.
He stated Fed was probably the one player who has taught him the most and driven him to always seek to improve his game.
Great interview recommend even to the seething hate filled.
 

BeatlesFan

Bionic Poster
The best mentally clutch ATG vs the least clutch ATG.
The least clutch ATG has to be Lendl, who was 8-11 in slam finals and lost many he should have won. Fed is 20-11 in slam finals. Several of those slam finals were played when Roger was far older than Ivan was when he retired. Sure, Fed squandered 20+ matches where he held MP's, but anyone who watched Lendl's entire career knows he choked a hell of a lot more than Roger.
 

King No1e

G.O.A.T.
I think my username ,specifically the Wimbledon edition could constitute as the worst choke ever
Not even close. Of course it must've been disappointing for the Fed brigade but it wasn't even the worst choke of the tournament. Raonic pulled off a much bigger masterclass in muggery against Pella a week earlier.

40-15 was just one bad service game. There have been plenty of worse chokes before and since. Zverev vs Thiem at USO20 was clearly worse, not to mention Medvedev blowing a 5-1 lead vs Nadal at YEC19. And who can forget Coria vs Gaudio?
 

swordtennis

G.O.A.T.
I will never agree that Fed is a choker.
He might get tighter and doubt himself in tight situations more than Fedal but he is not a choker in the classic sense.
I find it offensive when the term "choker" is thrown around willy nilly like a cheap suit.
 

King No1e

G.O.A.T.
I will never agree that Fed is a choker.
He might get tighter and doubt himself in tight situations more than Fedal but he is not a choker in the classic sense.
I find it offensive when the term "choker" is thrown around willy nilly like a cheap suit.
He's a choker by Peak Fed standards. The Federer of 03-06 went 7-0 in his first 7 Slam finals. He rarely lost sets, never mind matches.
 

alexio

G.O.A.T.
Coria.

/thread
i watched that match on tv live, and recalling that there's a chance that a possible injury that could somewhat refute his choke here, still not sure whether he was pretending then or it was really injury issue, but i remember i was rooting for gaston that day, dunno why though, (i seen both of them first time):-D
 

Rafa4LifeEver

G.O.A.T.
The least clutch ATG has to be Lendl, who was 8-11 in slam finals and lost many he should have won. Fed is 20-11 in slam finals. Several of those slam finals were played when Roger was far older than Ivan was when he retired. Sure, Fed squandered 20+ matches where he held MP's, but anyone who watched Lendl's entire career knows he choked a hell of a lot more than Roger.
Fed has choked some but in terms of "least clutch ATG" let's not forget that Ivan Lendl was 8-11 in Slam finals.

Lendl isn't a tier-1 ATG.

only players with slam trophies ≥ 10 belong there.
 

Kralingen

Talk Tennis Guru
Brutal stuff.
Nole' has had many a gaff, beat downs and chokes.
As he stated in his excellent interview with Graham Bensiger these brutal losses are a learning experience and without them he would never had have to go to drawing board and improve.
He stated Fed was probably the one player who has taught him the most and driven him to always seek to improve his game.
Great interview recommend even to the seething hate filled.
Djokovic has been mentally weak in quite a few Slam finals, this isn’t an insult but a fact. In ways I think going through those chokes as a favorite has made him a mental diamond in his later career.

2007 USO, 2012 USO, 2012 RG, 2013 Wimby, 2013 USO, 2015 FO, 2016 USO, RG 2020. And not just because he lost, he was lacking focus/choked leads/played far too passive, giving his opponents games/sets they otherwise didn’t deserve.

Obviously he has the iconic big moments and is on the whole the strongest mentally, but that’s 8 finals.. I don’t buy the whole unanimous GOAT mentality thing with him. Those Murray and Wawrinka slam losses are ugly, he had 3 DFs on BPs in a winnable RG 2012, and even though he was barely 20 he squandered 6 set points across multiple sets in ‘07.
 

terribleIVAN

Hall of Fame
eDvNlMu.png
 

King No1e

G.O.A.T.
The least clutch ATG has to be Lendl, who was 8-11 in slam finals and lost many he should have won. Fed is 20-11 in slam finals. Several of those slam finals were played when Roger was far older than Ivan was when he retired. Sure, Fed squandered 20+ matches where he held MP's, but anyone who watched Lendl's entire career knows he choked a hell of a lot more than Roger.
Interesting that given Lendl's aggressively "alpha" attitude and demeanor, he's the last player you'd expect to be mentally weak.
 

swordtennis

G.O.A.T.
Djokovic has been mentally weak in quite a few Slam finals, this isn’t an insult but a fact. In ways I think going through those chokes as a favorite has made him a mental diamond in his later career.

2007 USO, 2012 USO, 2012 RG, 2013 Wimby, 2013 USO, 2015 FO, 2016 USO, RG 2020. And not just because he lost, he was lacking focus/choked leads/played far too passive, giving his opponents games/sets they otherwise didn’t deserve.

Obviously he has the iconic big moments and is on the whole the strongest mentally, but that’s 8 finals.. I don’t buy the whole unanimous GOAT mentality thing with him. Those Murray and Wawrinka slam losses are ugly, he had 3 DFs on BPs in a winnable RG 2012, and even though he was barely 20 he squandered 6 set points across multiple sets in ‘07.
Oh for sure I am with you on this.
One reason I have always considered Nadal to be the most consistent mentally strong of the big three.
Djokovic has shown the best ever mental strength but has also shown absolute blown off the court with the tail between the legs mental strength.
However I do think Fedovic have played more than Nadal when they have not been at their absolute best mentally so maybe that has added some big mental losses to their records.
Nadal and team usually take some time off for R&R.
They like to be at 100% for every major.
Well fedovic have the #1 records to show for it tho so there is a good side to all that grinding.
 

lrdrdy

Rookie
One reason I have always considered Nadal to be the most consistent mentally strong of the big three.
Djokovic has shown the best ever mental strength but has also shown absolute blown off the court with the tail between the legs mental strength.
I always liked the Nadal stat that he hadn't lost a Slam final in straights (until 2019 AO). WB 06, WB 11, USO 11, AO 14 he fought like hell to even win one set when most would have laid down, no quit in him.
 

Kralingen

Talk Tennis Guru
I always liked the Nadal stat that he hadn't lost a Slam final in straights (until 2019 AO). WB 06, WB 11, USO 11, AO 14 he fought like hell to even win one set when most would have laid down, no quit in him.
Yeah agreed. Though I think it bears repeating, when Nadal is off, he rarely makes it past the QFs, so we don’t get to see a “bad Nadal” in the Finals even though he certainly exists. The other two have higher average finishes on aggregate across non-RG Slams.

Djokovic on the other hand has far more complex and less verifiable reasons for losing some of the Finals he did. I can accept mental and physical burnout for a couple but he looked like he barely showed up mentally for USO ‘12 and ‘16. Weird.
 

AnOctorokForDinner

Talk Tennis Guru
Djokovic has been mentally weak in quite a few Slam finals, this isn’t an insult but a fact. In ways I think going through those chokes as a favorite has made him a mental diamond in his later career.

2007 USO, 2012 USO, 2012 RG, 2013 Wimby, 2013 USO, 2015 FO, 2016 USO, RG 2020. And not just because he lost, he was lacking focus/choked leads/played far too passive, giving his opponents games/sets they otherwise didn’t deserve.

Obviously he has the iconic big moments and is on the whole the strongest mentally, but that’s 8 finals.. I don’t buy the whole unanimous GOAT mentality thing with him. Those Murray and Wawrinka slam losses are ugly, he had 3 DFs on BPs in a winnable RG 2012, and even though he was barely 20 he squandered 6 set points across multiple sets in ‘07.

Interesting that Djokovic showed weakness exactly against some of the strongest opponents he faced. Something Federer is constrantly criticised for with the wicked era narrative. Djokovic also, but the djokofan voice is louder now.

Sampras was the best mental performer in slams, I still think. Took him some time but once he fully matured there was hardly a slam match lost from a nice winning position (or positions across sets). Some close losses that had more to do with opponents clutching it out under pressure (rather than Pete dropping the ball, though for his standards you could say failing to elevate his game is already a subpar performance), some losses where he was just outplayed / not good enough. Only annoying loss from a winning position was 1997 USO 4R vs Korda. And of course Petros phoned it in at RG post-1996 except 1999 and 2000.
 

Mustard

Bionic Poster
Interesting that given Lendl's aggressively "alpha" attitude and demeanor, he's the last player you'd expect to be mentally weak.

Lendl was very consistent in his tennis game and got himself very fit by 1984-85. A lack of fitness makes it harder to be mentally strong when the time comes, so Lendl being very fit helped him with mental strength. Mental strength on the tennis court did not come naturally to him, so he had to work at it. Early 1980s Lendl had a power in his tennis game (especially forehand) that had seldom been seen in tennis before, and McEnroe seemed intimidated by that for a while (1981 to January 1983) until McEnroe turned that around from early 1983 until the summer of 1985, but Connors thrived on the big occasions against Lendl in the first half of the 1980s. Throw more power at Connors, and Connors thrives on it, turning it around and firing up the crowd. Connors' 1982 and 1983 US Open final wins over Lendl show this well. In the 1983 US Open final, Lendl had a set point at 5-4 in the third set for a 2-1 in sets lead, but hit a horrible double fault and Connors smelt blood and pounced, winning 9 games in a row to win 6-3, 6-7, 7-5, 6-0.
 

BauerAlmeida

Hall of Fame
Interesting that Djokovic did better against Federer in 2007 than in 2008 at the USO. Federer was much better overall in 2007 than in 2008, and Djokovic in 2008 won his first slam and TMC (+ some M1000). Yes, in 2008 he won a set, unlike 2007, but it still felt like a routine win for Federer. In 2007 Djokovic was the better player for most of the match.
 

Kralingen

Talk Tennis Guru
Interesting that Djokovic showed weakness exactly against some of the strongest opponents he faced. Something Federer is constrantly criticised for with the wicked era narrative. Djokovic also, but the djokofan voice is louder now.
I always try to avoid the armchair psychoanalysis when there’s a physical explanation. Fatigue and conditions (2016, USO 2012, Wimby 2013) can be blamed but in a lot of those finals it’s luck, a couple big points don’t go your way and your opponent is around his level, so you lose. With all of the Big 3 this is true, especially Federer, he’s not some mental midget because a few flip of a coin points went against him across a 20-yr career.

Each of those finals, even the 2013 one when Djokovic looked out of it from the start, have a common theme of unconverted BPs or UEs from a slip or miss hit here and there. And we know the matchup wasn’t that bad as he basically owned Stan and to a lesser extent Muzzah in all other matches around that time. After USO 2013 he won like 5 straight Masters and won the WTF 2012-2014, so these losses came in the midst of the most dominant Masters stretches ever.

Of course, why would we be on TTW if we didn’t want to do armchair psychoanalysis? 2012-14 Djokovic reminds me a lot of Federer’s ‘08/09 struggles tbh. His 2011 tennis was so powerful that he didn’t feel the need to make any changes. He was able to zone and get amped up on adrenaline for Fedal matches as a) he had the physical advantage and b) they were easily the toughest matches he played, demanding 100% buy in and removing pressure. Then suddenly he’s the favorite, world #1 and world famous, and he’s across the line from an ‘inferior’ player who gameplanned for him, not the opposite. Except this inferior player is able to take his methodical baseline game apart by either mirroring him defensively (Murray) or hitting point-flipping baseline groundstrokes (Stan), or Nishikori in ‘14. Djokovic was the definition of 10% tennis in that era, each shot gaining a 10% advantage then another, then another, then hitting that winner at a 80/20 advantage in the point. Both Stan/Andy either turned the point around at 70/30 or forced him to try to win points early. Suddenly plan A isn’t working and his opponent isn’t folding like he expected and there was no extra gear to reach. GSM and he looked a little shell shocked at the end of each. he needed Becker really badly imo, he just didn’t know how to fully prepare for big Slam Finals and raise his level from the dozens of Masters Finals he was playing. Mentally he gave everything in AO/Clay season IMO and didn’t really have an off season, so he was just going flat to a lot of these matches. You could tell in ‘13 that FO loss broke him the rest of the year.

He’s quite a sensitive guy, moreso than the other two, and the doubt monster in all aspects of his life shone through a lot. He was actually a little fragile in the spotlight from the beginning too. His attention grabbing USO 2007 stunt seemed pre-planned to me, similar to Agassi wearing the flashy clothes to give them something else to talk about than his game. Anyone who retires 10x from matches has to be very self conscious about their own weakness, and I know that a few of those were down to fear, the inability to quiet the doubting inner voice everyone gets with heavy fatigue. I think that voice came back with fatigue in a lot of his Slam losses and instead of retiring he just fell flat.

This nuance of course will likely be lost to the wind if he breaks the Slam record though.
 

swordtennis

G.O.A.T.
I always try to avoid the armchair psychoanalysis when there’s a physical explanation. Fatigue and conditions (2016, USO 2012, Wimby 2013) can be blamed but in a lot of those finals it’s luck, a couple big points don’t go your way and your opponent is around his level, so you lose. With all of the Big 3 this is true, especially Federer, he’s not some mental midget because a few flip of a coin points went against him across a 20-yr career.

Each of those finals, even the 2013 one when Djokovic looked out of it from the start, have a common theme of unconverted BPs or UEs from a slip or miss hit here and there. And we know the matchup wasn’t that bad as he basically owned Stan and to a lesser extent Muzzah in all other matches around that time. After USO 2013 he won like 5 straight Masters and won the WTF 2012-2014, so these losses came in the midst of the most dominant Masters stretches ever.

Of course, why would we be on TTW if we didn’t want to do armchair psychoanalysis? 2012-14 Djokovic reminds me a lot of Federer’s ‘08/09 struggles tbh. His 2011 tennis was so powerful that he didn’t feel the need to make any changes. He was able to zone and get amped up on adrenaline for Fedal matches as a) he had the physical advantage and b) they were easily the toughest matches he played, demanding 100% buy in and removing pressure. Then suddenly he’s the favorite, world #1 and world famous, and he’s across the line from an ‘inferior’ player who gameplanned for him, not the opposite. Except this inferior player is able to take his methodical baseline game apart by either mirroring him defensively (Murray) or hitting point-flipping baseline groundstrokes (Stan), or Nishikori in ‘14. Djokovic was the definition of 10% tennis in that era, each shot gaining a 10% advantage then another, then another, then hitting that winner at a 80/20 advantage in the point. Both Stan/Andy either turned the point around at 70/30 or forced him to try to win points early. Suddenly plan A isn’t working and his opponent isn’t folding like he expected and there was no extra gear to reach. GSM and he looked a little shell shocked at the end of each. he needed Becker really badly imo, he just didn’t know how to fully prepare for big Slam Finals and raise his level from the dozens of Masters Finals he was playing. Mentally he gave everything in AO/Clay season IMO and didn’t really have an off season, so he was just going flat to a lot of these matches. You could tell in ‘13 that FO loss broke him the rest of the year.

He’s quite a sensitive guy, moreso than the other two, and the doubt monster in all aspects of his life shone through a lot. He was actually a little fragile in the spotlight from the beginning too. His attention grabbing USO 2007 stunt seemed pre-planned to me, similar to Agassi wearing the flashy clothes to give them something else to talk about than his game. Anyone who retires 10x from matches has to be very self conscious about their own weakness, and I know that a few of those were down to fear, the inability to quiet the doubting inner voice everyone gets with heavy fatigue. I think that voice came back with fatigue in a lot of his Slam losses and instead of retiring he just fell flat.

This nuance of course will likely be lost to the wind if he breaks the Slam record though.
Djokovic totally got solved by the top guys for the most part by the time FO 2012 came along I felt a total energy reversal in the Fedal rivalry especially after he had that 8-0 run in the final came back next day and got wiped out.
It happens when you are not just beating up on hapless opponents and punching bags.
In fact AO 2012 final I think the 3rd set THE RUN was over.
He held on through sheer guts and being AO GOAT in that final.
He had to go back and retool.
This is what they do listen to them they are always talking about improving.
Stay static you get solved,
Sucks wish he could have just kept going after AO 2012.
 

Gizo

Hall of Fame
I said this on another thread, but Mauresmo vs. Kandarr in the 1st round at RG in 2001.

She cracked under the pressure, and couldn't handle the occasion, her billing, the expectation (especially within France) placed on her shoulders etc., from pretty much the first point of her 1st round match against an opponent ranked outside the top 50 who never reached a tour level final during her career.

To me, choking right from the start in the 1st round against a non-elite opponent, is far worse than choking either right from the start or when close to victory in a semi-final or final against an elite opponent.
 

T007

Hall of Fame
2019 Wimbledon final.
Could be 6-3 6-1 6-4 for fed
Ended up 7-6 1-6 7-6 4-6 13-12 for nole

The best mentally clutch ATG vs the least clutch ATG.
Well during his peak he was very clutch but that goes away as you age and also depends on who you are facing. The 2007 USO Finals he saved 7 set points,2009 Wimbledon Finals saved 4 in a row in 2nd set TB. 2017 AO coming back from from 1-3 down.

So he had his moments but 2019 one still sucks as he blew 2 MPs what could have been a best win of his career.
 

SonnyT

Legend
Djokovic lost in the first match, got his revenge in the rematch. Has happened so many times to be coincidences! Djokovic learns from his losses.

Djokovic-Federer: '07 USO F -> '11 USO SF; '12 Wim SF-> '14 Wim F; '11 RG SF -> '12 RG SF
Djokovic-Nadal: '10 USO F -> '11 USO F; '20 RG F -> '21 RG SF

Djokovic has never had the chance to avenge for his '13 USO loss to Nadal, because they never had met again there.
 
Top