USTA playoff roaming officials out of control
- Thread starter Nostradamus
- Start date
goober
Legend
You were given a warning- during warm ups. Most officials don't even give that!
I have seen or heard of matches ending on a USTA officials call. There was a playoff match that was in a 10 point TB. 9-9 score. A player dumped an easy sitter into the net. He let out an expletive loudly. Official gave him point penalty. Since it was 10-9, the point penalty made it 11-9 match over.
There is no appeal in cases like this. Match is over, nothing will be undone. Even in cases where the official was wrong on their court ruling they won't turn over the results. Don't like it?- don't play USTA playoffs.
woodrow1029
Hall of Fame
No.
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woodrow1029
Hall of Fame
No.
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chatt_town
Hall of Fame
Really....like what? 
I don't like what they do some times but I actually think they are ticked that they are out there for what 13 or 14 hours for 28 bucks or some nonsense in that heat. After the 10th hour they are probably looking to screw with someone to pass time by.
I don't like what they do some times but I actually think they are ticked that they are out there for what 13 or 14 hours for 28 bucks or some nonsense in that heat. After the 10th hour they are probably looking to screw with someone to pass time by.
woodrow1029
Hall of Fame
Really....like what?
I really hope that's not actually the way you feel about it.
chatt_town
Hall of Fame
Woodrow, the way some of them carry themselves and the things they do...yea, at times I do feel that way. I've seen them sit their fat@$$ES outside the court and look through a fence and over rule a call that they clearly have no view on. It didn't take me long after starting to figure out there is a reason they have line judges in the back and on the sides and I've never seen one behind a fence making calls. Some are aholes man and for no good reason.
Really....like what?
That is human psychology.
An idle mind is the Devil's workshop as the proverb goes.
the ole broad brush, guess I need to sit my fat ***** down more often and overrule from a mile away, can't be outlier according to many. Darn just when I thought I was a good average official. Oh well. Thanks for the knowledge so I can perfect my technique to meet the public's view of officials :wink: :twisted:
Rattler
Hall of Fame
tennis4josh
Rookie
I like that one. But in reality serving a ball into the service box from your service line is really tough unless your practiced it beforehand.
I just don't get this whole notion that it's not fair to call foot faults.
I have mixed feeling about USTA officials. My experience is all over the place. One guy repeatedly singled out few of my team members on first day of districts. He also passed some discriminatory remarks. So the next day before our match I went to the head official and shared my concern without actually naming the official. The head official immediately said, "I think I know the person you are talking about. I will talk to him and make sure it does not happen again". Problem solved.
One year during the sectionals one guy seemed to be friends with members of the other team and was chatting withe them all the time. He took special interest in our #1 singles match. He rightly called multiple foot faults on our guy but he was looking at the other court (his explanation) when the opponent threw his racket, kicked the net and let out some expletives. We won the match and the tie. Afterwards he came and congratulated the team and chatted with me. He seemed nice enough.
My best experience is from first round of 4.0 playoffs couple of years ago. We had the home court. Our earlier encounter with the opponent team during regular season had not gone well. There were arguments on 2 or 3 courts and line monitors were called. So this team informed us before the playoffs that they are requesting USTA roving official by paying something like $80-100. It backfired. It was a close match which we won 3-2. On the decider court one of the opponents made a double fault at 30-30 and then got a point penalty for dropping the F bomb. That break of serve was the only serve break in the third set.
-Josh
chatt_town
Hall of Fame
Or you could help get rid of the fat@sses and sorry officials and clean it up. If you are an official, you know what I'm saying is true. If you have one bad one it's one too many and instead of allowing them to float around and screw with people, they need to get them out if they don't want to be there. It's like bad cops. Good cops don't like it when they get a bad wrap but they don't do anything to get rid of the bad apples that they know are amongst them and then get upset when someone says something about it.
goober
Legend
Well it is not like there is a long waiting line for people fill in for USTA officials at rec level matches. It is a thankless job that very few people are willing to do. They are pretty much akin to volunteers at this level aren't they? I don't see attempting a major cleanup for something that is not popular to begin with is going to do very much.
Bub Wathall At Mcfarlin. Like i said i have no idea if official was watching that court and don't know how much you all listen to folks gripe around you about calls. I didn't yell it but i did say it loudly enough for lady sitting nearby to look at me and glare. Really i assume official was watching another court. Set of courts just north of office space, official standing right at fence me on bleachers. Gentlemen in the court nearest us plainly stepped good half foot in before he hit the ball with his front foot, though not like he was blasting aces. For the record it wouldn't have mattered, guy didn't FF his next two serves but he did shift his front foot forward quite a bit, just next two serves he landed after he hit it. Just maybe the official watching a next serve or two, or a look at me to shut up even.
Also i will say that it was a bad enough FF that really the opponent should have called it, it wasn't small.
newpball
Legend
Do you think it is proper etiquette for people watching a game to call faults loudly?
Sure if it brings attention to someone cheating. i didn't interfere with play. nor did i make the call. is it really so different then saying """ good shot """.
Perhaps i was the only person willing to let the guy know he is foot faulting and is glad i said it before he got called on it. though i did it out of the frustration of no one ever calling the damn things but int he most rare of cases, not out of any kindness or ill will toward him.
Perhaps i was the only person willing to let the guy know he is foot faulting and is glad i said it before he got called on it. though i did it out of the frustration of no one ever calling the damn things but int he most rare of cases, not out of any kindness or ill will toward him.
chatt_town
Hall of Fame
Anything can be cleaned up. Maybe they need to try a different approach. Maybe take some of the upteen million they pay at the U.S Open and spread it around a little to the officials. Don't think Fed or Serena would miss a few thousand dollars. Maybe not even that, just demand they do a better job if they are going to be out there...or they can just keep reading posts about the bad ones and we all just live with it.
Maybe not even that, just demand they do a better job if they are going to be out there...or they can just keep reading posts about the bad ones and we all just live with it.Anything can be cleaned up. Maybe they need to try a different approach. Maybe take some of the upteen million they pay at the U.S Open and spread it around a little to the officials. Don't think Fed or Serena would miss a few thousand dollars.
good idea, but would it really show in membership numbers or some measurable way other than slightly less whining on message boards
if it could be measured to have a positive affect on the game than if USTA is rational it would make a good proposal, and good officials probably should be paid more but how do yo weed out the bad ones. Would we get to rate officials performance?
newpball
Legend
Frankly I think it is incredibly rude to get involved like that.
I see it all the time on court, balls that are obviously in are called out or vice versa, uncalled foot faults etc, but it is not may match, I am not the referee.
So tennixpl when you play a game you appreciate corrections from self proclaimed referees who are standing by watching your game?
I don't really care. no worse than when people cheer your error, or say good shot and clap when you didn't do anything special and your opponent just F*ed up. I didn't say it while point was going on mind you. Its tennis people make calls and comments on crap all the time, ever have a collective gasp or sigh from audience as a ball was 'close'? that is a lot worse than some comment between points.
If some ones says i am foot faulting I say thanks and back up an inch. If someone says i make bad calls "well its my call thanks" or makes calls for opponents i don't care as long as my opponent is making call not them. they can say whatever they want. audience members don't bug me anymore than than people who argue or talk or scream on the court next to me....laddiddadi dah. Am I gong to get emotionally flustered when an airplane flies overhead, it's just noise.
Ronaldo
Bionic Poster
Won't forget trolls behind a fence who let you know you are getting hooked then tells your opponent the same thing.
Cindysphinx
G.O.A.T.
I think if I were watching a close match from outside the fence and I saw an obviously bad line call, I would say nothing.
If I saw another, I would probably change positions to make sure the hooker knew I was watching (e.g. stand up, move closer, make eye contact).
If I saw a third, I would probably say something immediately, like "Dang. What a line call!"
And then I would probably make some other commentary in a loud voice each time, provided I was very confident I was right and the line caller was not.
I would not say a word if I saw a player footfaulting. The reason is that the opponents are allowed to call FFs and can protect themselves if there is a problem. The opponents are not allowed to correct bad line calls no matter how awful the call is.
The only thing that can keep a hooker honest in the absence of a roving official is peer pressure.
If I saw another, I would probably change positions to make sure the hooker knew I was watching (e.g. stand up, move closer, make eye contact).
If I saw a third, I would probably say something immediately, like "Dang. What a line call!"
And then I would probably make some other commentary in a loud voice each time, provided I was very confident I was right and the line caller was not.
I would not say a word if I saw a player footfaulting. The reason is that the opponents are allowed to call FFs and can protect themselves if there is a problem. The opponents are not allowed to correct bad line calls no matter how awful the call is.
The only thing that can keep a hooker honest in the absence of a roving official is peer pressure.
newpball
Legend
I think this behavior is not acceptable, not from an involved SE Florida parent nor from a neutral bystander.
In a tournament or club I think the right thing to do here would be to first request you to stop doing this and then, if you would ignore this request, to tell you to leave the premises.
i am looking at the actual rules (or trying to find) on who calls the foot fault. since it happpens on servers side of court doesn't that technically make it their call?
http://www.usta.com/Improve-Your-Game/Rules/Rules-and-Line-Calls/Foot_Faulting/
from UTSA the poster is not saying what to do if server disagrees? only to let it go, which is opposite of making the call. i had just assumed opponents can "call" it....
woodrow1029
Hall of Fame
In an unofficiated match, the receiver can call a foot fault once they have warned the server that he is foot faulting and unsuccessfully attempted to locate an official and only when the foot fault is so flagrant it can be clearly seen on the receiver's side of the net.
SwankPeRFection
Hall of Fame
What?! So, you condone letting people cheat just because your watching the match? True, it's not the spectator's call, but some outburst words like "That was a bad call." when it's warranted should not be frowned upon. Trust me, I've seen my fair share of bad calls from both on the off the court and trust me when I say that the people playing know too that it was a bad call. The thing is, when they hear it from the people watching too, they now know how bad they look when they cheat.
Geez, I never understood why it's so important to win that you have to make **** calls just to do it. Those are the people that should be told to leave the premises.
Rattler
Hall of Fame
Was the court raised or was it at the same level as the bleachers?
Court 14, 15 & 16 are raiised about four and a half feet at MCF.
BTW seek out the referee next time, instead of what you did. It could be construed that you were trying to influence the match....how do you know the lady who glared at you wasn't related/with either of the players?
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kylebarendrick
Professional
If someone is watching a match from behind the baseline, especially if they are sitting down, a ball that is out by a few inches will look like it caught the line. An exclamation about a bad call in that case would only cause trouble.
tennis tom
Legend
Yah, I was sitting next to some whack job of a 3.5 ladie's captain, who was holding a wine glass, exclaiming out loud how her player was being 'CHEATED' on the base and far sidelines. NO way she could see those lines, but she was already stirring the peanut gallery watching.
chatt_town
Hall of Fame
Well...you could start by having some kind of way to file complaints just like they do on players. Now...once you have gotten more than several complaints on any given official, you call them in or whatever. I don't know. Maybe someone has a better idea. I just know that if you are being a bad official(screwing with people or making bad calls) sooner or later someone is going to say something about it. You have to start somewhere.
good idea, but would it really show in membership numbers or some measurable way other than slightly less whining on message boards
if it could be measured to have a positive affect on the game than if USTA is rational it would make a good proposal, and good officials probably should be paid more but how do yo weed out the bad ones. Would we get to rate officials performance?
SwankPeRFection
Hall of Fame
Rattler
Hall of Fame
This already exists, you can file a formal complaint with the tournament director, and it goes to either your district or sectional office....also let the referee know.
The complaint has to be forwarded, so don't assume it will find its way into a circular file....remember Tournament Directors like to continue to hold tournaments, and every T.D. & Ref worth their salt understands that one of the quickest ways to lose an event is to consistently have poor umpires. Word spreads very quickly among players, and coaches.
Rattler
Hall of Fame
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well cool, while ill gripe about that one instance, like i said i don't actually know if she heard me, and if i was REALLY concerned i would have brought it up, but like the OP was talking about the roaming nature and "drive by officiating" i would prefer you all stay out even on FF until called in by opponents. while i am not a fan, at least you are "roaming" tournaments in Houston and austin i played i cant recall seeing the Officials roaming at all, heck in Austin i don't even recall seeing the official outside the clubhouse
If it were up to me you all should be chilling around until someone asks you to butt in, let players make the calls. bc its not just officials, like other threads imply it is rather uncouth to call FF.
Why are you allowed to call FF but not lines without first letting players call it and going to you to confirmation?
and yes i am pretty sure she was gf or wife of one of players from that team
can you please cite where this assertion is in the code? or ITF rules or wherever? it makes sense to me i just didn't actually find that assertion written down yet.
the problem is nobody is really watching feet while ball being struck, servers partner is faced wrong way, receiver is way to far back unless the person is walking into court to serve, and receiver partner is usually watching for ball and a long call. to be really looking for ball contact foot placement detracts from other attention.
its like when net player comes over to net to hit the ball, its hard to be in a good angle to really see it and call it for sure.
Cindysphinx
G.O.A.T.
You can think this behavior is not acceptable and you are entitled to your opinion, but I do not think you have a leg to stand on.
Say we are at Districts in an outdoor public facility. I see you make some bad calls and I say something to you through the fence about it.
You could tell me to stop, but do you really think you could somehow make me leave the premises? Based on what? It's surely not coaching, I'm not threatening you, I'm not yelling out during a point.
As others have said, spectators don't necessarily have the best vantage point. But one of the easiest ways to cheat is on baseline calls. If I think my teammates are being hooked, that is where I will sit. And if I saw some blatant hooking, I would have a problem letting it slide.
Gut4Tennis
Hall of Fame
x2 for cindy
chatt_town
Hall of Fame
Yea, Good luck with that.lol I had a guy last Sunday say something to me about a FF. Of course it was after he had lost the first set. He just asked had anyone said anything about me ff. I said no...then he proceded to say I was and then I told him I noticed he was a well, but neither of us were hitting a 129 mph serve so I guess he figured it wasn't worth getting pi$$y over. If I were s&V and knocking off vollies that would be different. That is not justifying me ffing but I just think you will be hard pressed to get that call in an unofficiated match. Things like that when they aren't really effecting the match isn't worth going through the hassle of bothering with it.
tennis tom
Legend
First off it's not an assertion, it's a RULE. Do you have a copy of the tennis rules?--it's called "FRIEND AT COURT". Your assertion that NOBODY is watching for FF is groundless. If they weren't watching we wouldn't be having constant threads about it. Once it becomes an issue, opponents are definitely watching. The receiver's partner definitely is close enough to see it and the receiver can see a FF if the foot obliterates the line. It's a matter of how good one's vision is--good players have GOOD vision!
chatt_town
Hall of Fame
Was with ya til the last sentence. Just because one plays good tennis doesn't mean they have 20/20 vision now.
tennis tom
Legend
Just because one plays good tennis doesn't mean they have 20/20 vision now.
I don't understand what you mean by that, the game is all about hand/eye coordination--shank you very much.
kylebarendrick
Professional
As written in The Friend at Court:
The Code is not part of the ITF Rules of Tennis. Players shall follow The Code, except to the extent to which an official assumes some of their responsibilities.
So for those the struggle with understanding, while the code is not party of the rules of tennis, you are directed to follow it in unofficiated matches.
In USTA events if an official waits for a player to question a call, it is too late to overrule.
An official, or one worth their salt, will immediately correct a bad line call or else confirm and go with the call made by the player.
I personally unless it is way obvious will not ever overrule a call from off the court, that is only asking for trouble.
It is a process and the good Referees and TD's know which officials to get and which ones not to get, sometimes though you have no choice on officials.
It is a thankless job many times, particularly the roving of 6-8 cts in the middle of July in the South, but it is also fun for the most part, but 90% of the time officials hear about how a player got screwed and officials did nothing, but that is usually one-sided stories. I prefer to dwell on the 10% of time when a player or parent say thank you for creating a fair atmosphere.
that the rub the official a is rarely on the court, hence why then the code becomes the standard by which to make calls, ie the rules.
"...unless it is way obvious"....well so you don't really make line calls, you correct particularly egregious errors, this is where the rub happens with roaming officials, are they really in position to see the line any better, In some cases yes, but in others no. or why else are you on court? i just have sympathy for those folks who don't like the nature of an official who comes in and officiates for a minute and then leaves for the next court...... um thanks
here its hard for an official to be on court as they would have to usually interrupt play on other courts to get there.
yes in horrible cases, but here are lots of guys who step into the court but don't touch it till after they hit the ball.
the threads are about how people aren't calling FF often, so they aren't while on court calling it bc they are busy with other things and unless the person is a total tool about it most people will let it go.
maybe you are just that spectacular to watch the feet and ball at same time from across the net, once ball is stuck get your head turned to see if it is clipping the line or not and then get back your attention to your opponents to see where they are moving to see if the ball is going to come back to you or not. So i guess all of us who wear glasses or contacts aren't good players dang!!!
edit:
http://assets.usta.com/assets/1/15/2012 FRIEND AT COURT.pdf
Part 2 -The Code #24......that's how one cites
oh and newpball will say its not a rule it just part of the code, which is well established not in the rules of tennis and can be altered at will
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General rule if called on court an official should stay on court 2-3 games, if called subsequent times try to stay longer but when you have limited officials you can not stay on court too long and neglect other courts.
As for FF's if official calls on one player, they damn better sure stay for the next player's service game to make sure they are not FF'ing as well.
As for overrules, it has to be 100% to overrule and from the net post that is not easy so yes it needs to be egregious. Damned if you do, damned if you don't
