Who is the best returner against BIG Servers?

[TheMaestro1990]

Generally, just in terms of returns I'd say Novak Djokovic is the best, perhaps of all time. But against big servers like Karlovic he tends to struggle.

So, who is the best returner against big servers? Maybe this guy...

 

[jm1980]

Generally, just in terms of returns I'd say Novak Djokovic is the best, perhaps of all time. But against big servers like Karlovic he tends to struggle.

This "Djokovic can't handle big servers" business is getting tiring. Here is Djokovic's record against the top 20 players in first serve points won % (all-time/active). Players with a winning record against Djokovic bolded:

Karlovic: 1-2*
Raonic: 5-0
Roddick: 4-5
Querrey: 8-1
Isner: 8-2
Federer: 21-21
Berdych: 20-2
Fish: 7-0
Tsonga: 14-6
Muller: 2-0
Feliciano: 7-0
Cilic: 14-0
Soderling: 6-1
Anderson: 5-1
Ancic: 3-1
Safin: 0-2
Almagro: 4-0
Baghdatis: 8-0
Gulbis: 6-1
Chardy: 10-0

Overall: 153-45 (0.773)
Overall (minus Fed): 132-24 (0.846)

This doesn't look too much like a struggle to me.

* (one of the matches against Karlovic is not in the official record because it was a qualifying match)

 

[tacou]

Fed for sure.

 

[Nachiket Nolefam]

Djokovic most probably. The way he dissects top players serve is fun.

 

[Krish872007]

Just to keep it even, I'll say Nadal.

 

[jm1980]

That being said, I think Nadal is the best servebot foil. His strategy of standing 50km behind the baseline to return serve really pays dividends against big servers, because if the big server can't win the point outright or within the first couple of shots, Nadal will win the point for sure.

Novak is very stubborn and refuses to give up any court even when returning against huge servers and that has given him problems a couple of times in the past. But this year I think he's finally standing a little further back to return those bombs and that's served him well (no pun intended)

 

[Slice'n'dice]

Probably Murray, but Federer will win the vote almost certainly.

 

[D.Nalby12]

Federer in his prime was master of handling big serving players even with standing on baseline. His Godly touch allows him to control pace and return position. Murray is similar kind of returner since he has got good touch too. Djokovic's returning abilities are inexplicable and out of this World. He is one of the best returners ever despite not having gifted touch. Nadal has dominant record against servebots as well but it has more to with his returning position rather than quality of return.

 

[duaneeo]

Federer: 21-21

Federer isn't a BIG server. His first-serve typically averages around ~120 mph. His serving stats are more about the disguise of the toss and placement than big bombs.

 

[TheGhostOfAgassi]

Signore Ferrer

 

[Krish872007]

Federer isn't a BIG server. His first-serve typically averages around ~120 mph. His serving stats are more about the disguise of the toss and placement than big bombs.

True. Interesting thing is that Federer's top serve speed ever was clocked at 143mph though - tied with guys like Soderling and ahead of more powerful guys like Berdych/Del Potro.

 

[Steve0904]

Federer wins this one. Probably even now, never mind for his whole career.

 

[mightyrick]

Against merely big servers, I have to go with Federer. I think he has been the best.

Although, David Ferrer is a very close second. That guy is ridiculous against big servers.

 

[Djokovic2011]

Surprised Ferrer isn't in the poll options.

 

[fundrazer]

Would say it used to be Roger...nowadays I dunno.

 

[Chadillac]

* (one of the matches against Karlovic is not in the official record because it was a qualifying match)

Why wouldnt it count? Was it a sanctioned event or not?

 

[jm1980]

Why wouldnt it count? Was it a sanctioned event or not?

The ATP doesn't count Juniors, Futures, Challengers, and Qualifying matches as part of the official record.

 

[Chadillac]

The ATP doesn't count Juniors, Futures, Challengers, and Qualifying matches as part of the official record.

How do you get atp points from events that arent sanctioned by the atp? Weird

Juniors and women arent under the atp of coarse.

 

[Red Rick]

Ferrer is a good one. We shouldn't look at H2H vs big servers, cause you take everything into account. I think you should look at 1st serve return points won or the amount of returns into play

 

[jm1980]

How do you get atp points from events that arent sanctioned by the atp? Weird

Juniors and women arent under the atp of coarse.

The events are sanctioned by the ATP; it's just that their results don't count towards the official record. That's why you have journeymen like this guy with a 1-0 official record after years on tour

 

[Chadillac]

The events are sanctioned by the ATP; it's just that their results don't count towards the official record. That's why you have journeymen like this guy with a 1-0 official record after years on tour

If he were practicing at your club and you over heard him saying he has played over 100 matches on tour would you step in to correct him?

They were both professionals, playing in a professional event.

 

[Sysyphus]

Best return against big servers? Murray and Ferrer.

Federer is great at blocking big servers as well, as so many mention. However, we should remember that part of the reason he has done well against them is that he defends his own serve more comfortably than those we compare him to as well.

Djovak is obviously great at this as well, but it's not the kind of return that is his forte.

 

[Deleted member 688153]

If he were practicing at your club and you over heard him saying he has played over 100 matches on tour would you step in to correct him?

They were both professionals, playing in a professional event.

Yeah, might as well have been 100 Wimbledon matches. :^)

 

[President]

Best return against big servers? Murray and Ferrer.

Federer is great at blocking big servers as well, as so many mention. However, we should remember that part of the reason he has done well against them is that he defends his own serve more comfortably than those we compare him too as well.

Djovak is obviously great at this as well, but it's not the kind of return that is his forte.

This, Federer is great at returning big serves, but IMO not quite at the level of Murray and Ferrer (who is really underrated in this category, he is always all over Isner and Karlovic's serves). He defends his serve considerably better than them though, which is why he has such a good record against the big servers.

 

[Bud]

List the big servers (Karlovic, Isner, Raonic...) and the H2H of each player against them. That's a start.

 

[BeatlesFan]

Agassi.

No one else is in the discussion.

 

[Aussie Darcy]

List the big servers (Karlovic, Isner, Raonic...) and the H2H of each player against them. That's a start.

That's what I was thinking. Obviously players like Anderson, Karlovic and Isner are obvious but jm mentioned players like Berdych, Muller, Almagro, Gulbis and Chardy who I never considered servebots or having a really hard serve to return.

 

[smash hit]

List the big servers (Karlovic, Isner, Raonic...) and the H2H of each player against them. That's a start.

Head to heads of current top 10 against the four biggest servers.

Isner Karlovic Raonic Anderson

Djokovic 8-2, 1-3, 5-0, 5-1

Murray 5-0, 6-0, 3-3, 5-2

Federer 5-2, 13-1, 9-1, 4-0

Wawrinka 1-2, 5-2, 4-0, 4-4

Nadal 6-0, 5-0, 6-1, 3-0

Berdych 6-2, 3-5, 2-3, 12-0

Ferrer 6-1, 4-1, 4-0, 3-2

Nishikori 1-1, 1-2, 5-2, 3-1

Gasquet 2-2 5-1 1-3 5-2

Tsonga 1-3 1-2 2-1 2-0

 

[PeterHo]

Head to heads of current top 10 against the four biggest servers.

Isner Karlovic Raonic Anderson

Djokovic 8-2, 1-3, 5-0, 5-1

Murray 5-0, 6-0, 3-3, 5-2

Federer 5-2, 13-1, 9-1, 4-0

Wawrinka 1-2, 5-2, 4-0, 4-4

Nadal 6-0, 5-0, 6-1, 3-0

Berdych 6-2, 3-5, 2-3, 12-0

Ferrer 6-1, 4-1, 4-0, 3-2

Nishikori 1-1, 1-2, 5-2, 3-1

Gasquet 2-2 5-1 1-3 5-2

Tsonga 1-3 1-2 2-1 2-0

Looking at this, its between Murray Fedal Ferrer.

And Ferrer is the obvious choice, given he is a much lesSer player than the other 3 with just as impressive record against big servers.

 

[BeatlesFan]

Agassi got own by Sampras, arguably the best server in the past 20 years. We're not talking about just a big booming first serve here, but both first and second serve.

Everyone got "owned" by Sampras in big finals, he was 14-4. The point is that Agassi was still able to return many of Pete's bombs while no one else usually could get a racket on the ball. Agassi was not owned by Becker, who had a cannon serve, nor by Goran or countless other massive servers of his era. You also conveniently neglect to mention that Agassi was returning on court speeds WAYYYY faster than anything today. Had Agassi played on the ridiculously slow courts now, he would have returned even Pete's serve consistently.

He also stood on the baseline to return serve, instead of way back as does Djoker. There's no comparison between the two- Agassi played against vastly better competition and on much faster surfaces than does Nole.

 

[mistik]

That's where the difference is between Agassi and Djokovic. Agassi was own by Sampras but Djokovic was never own by any of the big time servers in Djokovic's era. The closest is Roddick but virtually all of Roddick - Djokovic matches took place before 2011, which was before Djoko hit his prime. And also, Roddick only have a 5-4 record over Djokovic.

True, courts were much faster 20 to 30 years ago but pace back then was easily offset by Agassi's compact swing. Don't forget that most players are bigger and stronger today than anytime in history, so there are many more servebots that Djokovic competes against. It all gets balanced out between Agassi and Djokovic.. except that Djokovic was never own by the best servers during his era.

There isnt Sampras type of player in this era. No not even Fed has clutch serve and explosive game like Sampras.

 

[TheFifthSet]

Everyone got "owned" by Sampras in big finals, he was 14-4. The point is that Agassi was still able to return many of Pete's bombs while no one else usually could get a racket on the ball. Agassi was not owned by Becker, who had a cannon serve, nor by Goran or countless other massive servers of his era. You also conveniently neglect to mention that Agassi was returning on court speeds WAYYYY faster than anything today. Had Agassi played on the ridiculously slow courts now, he would have returned even Pete's serve consistently.
.

Little bit of mythologizing being done there...

Agassi is an ATG returner because of how he punished second serves. His first serve return wasn't that great. In fact, he got aced at a higher rate than any ATG returner ever, based on the figures I've seen.

Sampras actually had a 16.0% ace rate against Agassi, as per Tennis Abstract (not all of their matches are properly accounted for I would reckon, but it's a good start). Out of the 20 players Sampras has had 10+ encounters with, only Enqvist got aced at a higher %

Federer also had an unusually high ace rate against Agassi, 13.3% compared w/9.9% for his entire career. Out of the 39 players he has at least 10 HTH's with, only 4 were aced more.


In other words, Agassi's defensive return wasn't as good as advertised, even if his overall return lived up to its billing.

 

[Steve0904]

Best return against big servers? Murray and Ferrer.

Federer is great at blocking big servers as well, as so many mention. However, we should remember that part of the reason he has done well against them is that he defends his own serve more comfortably than those we compare him to as well.

Djovak is obviously great at this as well, but it's not the kind of return that is his forte.

But this is about best return right? So why does it matter that Federer holds his own serve more comfortably? Of course Murray and Ferrer are right near the top in such a discussion, but for my money, the block returns that Federer has utilized so well over his career quite honestly beat out anything I've seen from Murray and Ferrer.

The way I see it, Murray and Ferrer are more likely to get the serve back because they stand farther back to return it (unless the big server hits one of those ridiculous angles), but they're more likely to lose the point due to "passive" return position in the first place. Whereas, Federer is more aggressive with the actual return so if he gets it back he has a higher chance of winning the point. He probably gets aced more as a consequence, but I'm not entirely sure if that's true either.

 

[President]

But this is about best return right? So why does it matter that Federer holds his own serve more comfortably? Of course Murray and Ferrer are right near the top in such a discussion, but for my money, the block returns that Federer has utilized so well over his career quite honestly beat out anything I've seen from Murray and Ferrer.

The way I see it, Murray and Ferrer are more likely to get the serve back because they stand farther back to return it (unless the big server hits one of those ridiculous angles), but they're more likely to lose the point due to "passive" return position in the first place. Whereas, Federer is more aggressive with the actual return so if he gets it back he has a higher chance of winning the point. He probably gets aced more as a consequence, but I'm not entirely sure if that's true either.

I am pretty sure that Ferrer and Murray win more points against the serves of Raonic, Karlovic, and Isner than Federer has done throughout his career. His block return is effective, but I don't think it is as effective as their returns in terms of sheer number of return points won. He is slightly more effective against these guys in big matches because of his own service game, but in pure returning I think he is a bit below for sure. Someone would need to do a statistical analysis to confirm this though, I could be wrong.

 

[Steve0904]

I am pretty sure that Ferrer and Murray win more points against the serves of Raonic, Karlovic, and Isner than Federer has done throughout his career. His block return is effective, but I don't think it is as effective as their returns in terms of sheer number of return points won. He is slightly more effective against these guys in big matches because of his own service game, but in pure returning I think he is a bit below for sure. Someone would need to do a statistical analysis to confirm this though, I could be wrong.

Yeah. It would be interesting. Keep in mind also that I think Federer wins a lot of return points. Maybe more than the other 2. He just doesn't win a lot of BP's. Look at this video for example. Even early in Federer's career, BP conversion was his nightmare. Go to 5:25 for a first hand look. I'm not trying to compare Sampras to someone like Isner or Karlovic either. Nobody get the wrong idea.

 

[President]

http://www.atpworldtour.com/en/stats/1st-serve-return-points-won/2015/all/all/

If you look at this, it is actually surprising to me that they are all so close. I know not all 1st serves are as big as Isner and Karlovic's (I think Djokovic and Nadal would drop a bit and Federer may go up slightly against those guys, relatively speaking), but it does show that Ferrer is probably the best pure returner in the game this year IMO (and he has been at/very near the top for many years now). Guys like Djokovic and Murray are better after the point starts though.

 

[Steve0904]

^Definitely shows Ferrer's qualifications on return for sure.

 

[Luckydog]

This, Federer is great at returning big serves, but IMO not quite at the level of Murray and Ferrer (who is really underrated in this category, he is always all over Isner and Karlovic's serves). He defends his serve considerably better than them though, which is why he has such a good record against the big servers.

How can Roger win if only by defending his own serve?Always waiting for bombs' unforced errors?

 

[mistik]

There is probably no server today who can has a great second serve today like Sampras, or a heavier server, but there's definitely faster servers out there (and a ton of them).

Being clutch is also important. Sampras was serving even better under pressure. That was his trade mark. In todays game for example Roanic will hit many aces but under pressure he rarely finds the serves he needs.