Who was the better hard-court player, 2004 Andre Agassi or 2023 Novak Djokovic?

[BauerAlmeida]

He didn't play the YEC so that checks out. I hesitate to use the word lock but he's the heavy favorite on form at the USO and Cincy.

I said he is not a lock to win the YEC, not that he played it.

And he can win the USO but he can lose to Medvedev and even if he wins he doesn't do it in straights very likely. Same vs Alcaraz at Cinci, he can lose too.

 

[NatF]

In the 14 matches Djokovic played between AO and USO he won 12 in straight sets. In the other 2 matches in one of them, he lost one set and in a tie-break. He played two top 5 players to win the AO and two top 10 players to win the USO. He won the YEC beating Alcaraz and Sinner back to back in straights not dropping more than 3 games per set.

But some people will tell themselves he was playing like **** and won because he played bad competition to cope with the fact he has all the records lol.

Has anyone said he was playing like ****?

Seems some people will use strawman to make their arguments look better...

 

[RS]

I mean is that the debate lol.

Mainly got defensive and so maybe not lol. But I would think if you are picking Djokovic in the poll you must think he was playing at least as good in slams if not better.

 

[NatF]

I said he is not a lock to win the YEC, not that he played it.

And he can win the USO but he can lose to Medvedev and even if he wins he doesn't do it in straights very likely. Same vs Alcaraz at Cinci, he can lose too.

I guess Agassi could slip and twist an ankle in Cincy or at the USO.

 

[abmk]

And he can win the USO but he can lose to Medvedev and even if he wins he doesn't do it in straights very likely. Same vs Alcaraz at Cinci, he can lose too.

 

[RS]

This thread is like TTW a couple years back

 

[NatF]

Mainly got defensive so maybe not lol.

Not sure what you're saying here but ok lol

 

[BauerAlmeida]

Has anyone said he was playing like ****?

Seems some people will use strawman to make their arguments look better...

What is the criticism exactly? Because on clay we can debate his level all we want last year, he did not do well pre-RG and in RG he got a bit lucky with Alcaraz cramping (it balanced out with Alcaraz getting lucky in Wimbledon). But on HC he won everything and breezed through the draws. What exactly was he supposed to do? He beat the best players and he hardly dropped sets. Won slams, M1000s and YEC.

 

[NatF]

What is the criticism exactly? Because on clay we can debate his level all we want last year, he did not do well pre-RG and in RG he got a bit lucky with Alcaraz cramping (it balanced out with Alcaraz getting lucky in Wimbledon). But on HC he won everything and breezed through the draws. What exactly was he supposed to do? He beat the best players and he hardly dropped sets. Won slams, M1000s and YEC.

What criticism have I given except for calling you out on that strawman? I said in an earlier post Djokovic was playing great still, just not great enough to win three slams in dominant fashion in a normal strength era. That doesn't mean I think was playing like ass, it was the field that was ass.

 

[jl809]

It’s always surprising to me how the most left field threads are the ones that end up getting the Big 3 gangs out there swinging punches

 

[RS]

It’s always surprising to me how the most left field threads are the ones that end up getting the Big 3 gangs out there swinging punches

Tyson Fury doesn't do it so TTW takes his place

 

[BauerAlmeida]

Yeah, he lost to Fish, Calleri, Haas, Melzer, Gilles Muller, ToJo in the same year but he is a lock to beat Medvedev and Alcaraz

 

[NoleFam]

23 djokovic wouldn't win a single slam in any year from 2001-2015 except maybe in 2002
he'd get crushed
he won 3 in 2023. obviously worst competition in open era, unless you are such a djokovic fanboy or have little clue about tennis prior.

Paul in SF and tpas crumbling FH & trash TB in F of AO
cramping Alcaraz in SF and Ruud in F at RG
shelton in SF and meh Med in F at USO

lmao.

Is this not you?

djokovic ? he's at 12 slams .
no way in hell is he getting close to 20 slams.

nadal's chances are there, but pretty slim.
and nowhere near reasonable distance.

You have zero ability to predict what will happen and your hypothetical opinions are useless. You are in deep ruins after seeing Federer surpassed and have been crying weak era for 9 years. Are you not tired of this yet?

 

[BauerAlmeida]

What criticism have I given except for calling you out on that strawman? I said in an earlier post Djokovic was playing great still, just not great enough to win three slams in dominant fashion in a normal strength era. That doesn't mean I think was playing like ass, it was the field that was ass.

Agreed he would not be winning 3 slams in many other years.


However, the idea he would lose in straights to Roddick is laughable.

 

[RS]

Not sure what you're saying here but ok lol

Either way no good was going to come off this lets say that lol. It's repeated stuff over and over.

 

[NoleFam]

"Some of your Fed fans" LOL. Like you Djoko fans don't have your own patterns. I don't think all players from Federer's era are superior no, but I think 2004 Fed is clearly superior to 2023 Djokovic and that filters down to the rest of the field considering the similar levels of dominance.

I think Djokovic vultured a barren field last year and has done for years and years. He might still be the greatest, I don't think that's mutually exclusive but it's based off years like 2011 and 2015. He's still playing great tennis but not at the level that should achieving these sorts of results. So yeah, agree to disagree. But I'm still going to call out trash takes like Alcaraz in 2023 Cincy > Roddick in 2004 Cincy

I think your take that Djokovic has vultured a barren field for years and years is a trash take, and a cope and inability to accept things at face value. But that's just my opinion. So again, why are we wasting each other's time?

 

[BauerAlmeida]

23 djokovic wouldn't win a single slam in any year from 2001-2015 except maybe in 2002

@NatF This is the kind of crap I'm talking about.

 

[RS]

Aynaoui AO 2003 QF vs Hewitt AO 2005 SF?

 

[AnOctorokForDinner]

Agassi likely wins the AO too (though not as dominant as Djokovic), but is in no way a lock for USO, Cinici or YEC.

Agassi was plenty dominant up to SF though the draw was feeble but it's not like Djokovic's wasn't. AA could conceivably win 23 AO in straight sets I would think. Could win 23 USO with little trouble too, like who's gonna stop him, there's no one in the draw within a mile of 04 Federer. YEC is only out of the question if he gets injured like he did in 04, otherwise Agassi certainly had the ability to spank all these mugs.

 

[AnOctorokForDinner]

In the 14 matches Djokovic played between AO and USO he won 12 in straight sets. In the other 2 matches in one of them, he lost one set and in a tie-break. He played two top 5 players to win the AO and two top 10 players to win the USO. He won the YEC beating Alcaraz and Sinner back to back in straights not dropping more than 3 games per set.

But some people will tell themselves he was playing like **** and won because he played bad competition to cope with the fact he has all the records lol.

So Djokovic beat a bunch of mugs that stand for top players these days, does it really tell us anything about his level?

 

[Phenomenal]

"Some of your Fed fans" LOL. Like you Djoko fans don't have your own patterns. I don't think all players from Federer's era are superior no, but I think 2004 Fed is clearly superior to 2023 Djokovic and that filters down to the rest of the field considering the similar levels of dominance.

I think Djokovic vultured a barren field last year and has done for years and years. He might still be the greatest, I don't think that's mutually exclusive but it's based off years like 2011 and 2015. He's still playing great tennis but not at the level that should achieving these sorts of results. So yeah, agree to disagree. But I'm still going to call out trash takes like Alcaraz in 2023 Cincy > Roddick in 2004 Cincy

Nadal fans are the best!

 

[nolefam_2024]

Tbh not a single one who chose Agassi here really is worth your time. I know most of you guys have better friendships for staying here so long. But these guys have lost any sense of credibility. Cut the ties and put them on ignore for your mental sanity.

@Hitman @NoleFam @Djokovic_is_the_best#1

 

[Milanez82]

Is this not you?

You have zero ability to predict what will happen and your hypothetical opinions are useless. You are in deep ruins after seeing Federer surpassed and have been crying weak era for 9 years. Are you not tired of this yet?

PTSP obviously, just can't help himself. Or maybe it's an AI scripted to deliver same drivel over and over?

Could make for an interesting study

 

[Kralingen]

Aynaoui AO 2003 QF vs Hewitt AO 2005 SF?

 

[Phenomenal]

Shortly the problem is nobody accepts anything in these arguments(Not this question). While many things are not white or black still people should agree with others opinion sometimes even if that against your favourite.
Some things are close to facts but both sides usually Federer Djokovic fans doing this competition discussion for years but they don't accept any argument from other side.

You all should be less biased in these arguments even when you try to prove what you believe .

 

[RS]

If only Guru would answer.

 

[Phenomenal]

@RS did you ever asked Agassi 2004 vs Federer 2015 USO?

 

[RS]

@RS did you ever asked Agassi 2004 vs Federer 2015 USO?

Not as a thread.

Edit - yes one thread.

 

[Phenomenal]

Not as a thread.

Edit - yes one thread.

Ok i wonder what people thought? ok you asked. 2004-2015 looks more interesting to me.

 

[RS]

Ok i wonder what people thought? ok you asked

That's been done too but I would avoid the USO 05 final at all costs.

 

[zvelf]

Obviously 2004 Agassi.
significantly better at AO and USO.
cruised through all rounds before it took peak safin and peak fed 5 sets each to beat him.
Djokovic 23 would've been taken out in 4 sets tops by either.

Djokovic would have lost at IW/Miami 23 most likely at some phase. hasn't won since 2016.

djoko 23 would be CRUSHED by peak safin and peak fed. it wouldn't be remotely close.

either of agassi or hewitt or roddick of Cincy 04 would have crushed that djoko in straights.

You are the king of using hypothetical matches as if they actually happened as proof that player A is better than player B. Hypothetical matches are not proof of anything except confirmation bias.

again, 5th grader talk from someone who just googled with no idea of actual tennis
Safin hit peak form from 2nd set of Roddick match and carried that on into the semi vs agassi.
that AO 2004 semi is an all time classic.
since you haven't watched, you have no idea.

I watched all of those matches when they happened, but ad hominem is where one goes when one is losing the argument.

and LMAO @ classic cincy 23 final ...quality was meh and djoko should have lost in straights. one good set (3rd set) does not mean good quality overall.

How on God’s green earth was the 23 Cincy F considered a “classic match”? Sets 1-2 were an UFEfest. It was absolutely putrid how bad it was. 1 solid set a classic match does not make.

Tennis.com ranked that Cincinnati final the second-best match of the year even while combining men's and women's matches into their consideration:

2023 Matches of the Year, No. 2: Djokovic d. Alcaraz, Cincinnati Final | Tennis.com

Three hours and 49 minutes later, the Serb's legend grew when he outlasted the 20-year-old to triumph, 5-7, 7-6 (7), 7-6 (4), after saving a championship point.

www.tennis.com

The ATP ranked the Cincinnati final the single best match of the year:

Novak Djokovic & Carlos Alcaraz Showdown Among Best ATP Matches Of 2023 | ATP Tour | Tennis

Another ATP Tour season full of gripping storylines, magic moments and standout achievements is in the books… but which matches from 2023 will live longest in fans' memories?

www.atptour.com

We know that Djokovic haters are biased, but yes, that match is widely seen as a classic among the broader tennis community.

 

[nolefam_2024]

Shortly the problem is nobody accepts anything in these arguments(Not this question). While many things are not white or black still people should agree with others opinion sometimes even if that against your favourite.
Some things are close to facts but both sides usually Federer Djokovic fans doing this competition discussion for years but they don't accept any argument from other side.

You all should be less biased in these arguments even when you try to prove what you believe .

No way

Talking to these people is like talking to flat earthers. Each week it's same old bulsheet.

You can talk when there is halfway argument but when you start with ridiculous argument and people say proof why our view is not stupid, because era strength, then you have to let them go. These people have lost it.

 

[nolefam_2024]

It's like Republicans in American politics or any right winger party in any country. They will continue shifting goalpost until you don't even know what you are fighting on.

I am fine with living in echo chambers than this.

 

[Phenomenal]

No way

Talking to these people is like talking to flat earthers. Each week it's same old bulsheet.

You can talk when there is halfway argument but when you start with ridiculous argument and people say proof why our view is not stupid, because era strength, then you have to let them go. These people have lost it.

Those kind of opinions are apparent in your fanbase many times aswell. So not only one fanbase does that. I understand the op later but question was bit provoking and bring the fire to the never ending topics.

 

[nolefam_2024]

There was 1 poster named @Chanwan or something. He conceded when Nole won his 24th. He knew he no longer even belonged to this forum and just left making some thread about leaving. Most of the nostalgia merchants don't know how to let go. They can go back to the thread.

 

[nolefam_2024]

Those kind of opinions are apparent in your fanbase many times aswell. So not only one fanbase does that. I understand the op later but question was bit provoking and bring the fire to the never ending topics.

I am not responsible for my fanbase. I am asking my nolefam fanbase members to stop responding to these bait threads with logic.

Total non participation. The miscreants just want some attention. I have stopped participating in these votes since January.

 

[The Blond Blur]

Tennis.com ranked that Cincinnati final the second-best match of the year even while combining men's and women's matches into their consideration:

2023 Matches of the Year, No. 2: Djokovic d. Alcaraz, Cincinnati Final | Tennis.com

Three hours and 49 minutes later, the Serb's legend grew when he outlasted the 20-year-old to triumph, 5-7, 7-6 (7), 7-6 (4), after saving a championship point.

www.tennis.com

The ATP ranked the Cincinnati final the single best match of the year:

Novak Djokovic & Carlos Alcaraz Showdown Among Best ATP Matches Of 2023 | ATP Tour | Tennis

Another ATP Tour season full of gripping storylines, magic moments and standout achievements is in the books… but which matches from 2023 will live longest in fans' memories?

www.atptour.com

We know that Djokovic haters are biased, but yes, that match is widely seen as a classic among the broader tennis community.

That’s more of an indictment on the rest of the matches in 2023 that it is a completely to the match itself. Not everything is about Joker, lol. If RAFA was in his place I’d be saying the exact same thing. When 2/3 of a match is terrible (which it was) there’s no way you can objectively call it a classic.

 

[Red Rick]

Safin looks like a world #86 here that’s for sure. Played like a total mug this match.

Now Tommy Paul… that’s a real opponent.

My dude, tennis is 'bout the only thing better in '24 than in '4. Like seriously the only genius thing about Andre Agassi of '04 was that he made the game look super fast by running in goddamn slow motion

 

[RS]

My dude, tennis is 'bout the only thing better in '24 than in '4. Like seriously the only genius thing about Andre Agassi of '04 was that he made the game look super fast by running in goddamn slow motion

I do agree Safin plays the type of game Roddick and Agassi want by engaging him in a ballbashing contest. He actually needed to get them out wide and force them to run a bit more and we know Roddick's BH isn't very good for a top player so no reason it couldn't have worked.

 

[Red Rick]

I do agree Safin plays the type of game Roddick wants by engaging him in a ballbashing contest.

I mean, I ****ing loved Roddick, that doesn't mean I have to argue he eye tests better than the current #200 in the world, let alone a Jannik Sinner or whatever. The latter is completely delusional

 

[RS]

I mean, I ****ing loved Roddick, that doesn't mean I have to argue he eye tests better than the current #200 in the world, let alone a Jannik Sinner or whatever. The latter is completely delusional

I don't really agree with the extent of your evolution arguments (IE I wouldn't extend it as far as you) but I agree on some aspects.

I mean could somewhat understand arguing it for Sinner say and Alcaraz but I don't buy we are at the stage or so deep were sub top 100 players are better or much better than top guys of say 15-20 years back.

 

[AnOctorokForDinner]

I mean, I ****ing loved Roddick, that doesn't mean I have to argue he eye tests better than the current #200 in the world, let alone a Jannik Sinner or whatever. The latter is completely delusional

Classic sad dick.

 

[RS]

Aynaoui AO 2003 QF vs Hewitt AO 2005 SF?

Anyone?

 

[Phenomenal]

Shortly the problem is nobody accepts anything in these arguments(Not this question). While many things are not white or black still people should agree with others opinion sometimes even if that against your favourite.
Some things are close to facts but both sides usually Federer Djokovic fans doing this competition discussion for years but they don't accept any argument from other side.

You all should be less biased in these arguments even when you try to prove what you believe .

2007-2013 competition (2019 too) was better than most other years right? like 2021-2023 and 2004-2006 earlier too. and most if not all other years between. If you don't believe this then idk what to discuss.

Djokovic's 2023 slam competition was not good. AO was okay IMO regardless he would have won AO 2023 maybe he was even better than 2021.
One way or another Djokovic is more successfull than Federer in their 30's. In their young years aswell. Federer is better during his best years than Djokovic.

Federer from 2010 to at the end of 2016 just won 2 slam. Age 29 to 35. You just can't explain this only with competition i mean Djokovic's better stats. Federer lost to many players he shouldn't have lost.

 

[Phenomenal]

2007-2013 competition (2019 too) was better than most other years right? like 2021-2023 and 2004-2006 earlier too. and most if not all other years between. If you don't believe this then idk what to discuss.

Djokovic's 2023 slam competition was not good. AO was okay IMO regardless he would have won AO 2023 maybe he was even better than 2021.
One way or another Djokovic is more successfull than Federer in their 30's. In their young years aswell. Federer is better during his best years than Djokovic.

Federer from 2010 to at the end of 2016 just won 2 slam. Age 29 to 35. You just can't explain this only with competition i mean Djokovic's better stats. Federer lost to many players he shouldn't have lost.

To Djokovic fans yeah Djokovic leads Federer in h2h at Wimbledon but come on i saw many times some suggesting the Federer is no different than his early version who won 5 streak + 7 Wimbledon prior to 2010. This is simply not true and laughable.

I can count 8+ years Djokovic was better RG but didn't win RG. Almost every other year he was better pre RG than 2023 aswell.
Alcaraz has much tougher draw compared to Djokovic at USO. really easily.

At the same Djokovic imo played one of his best level in SF and Final of YEC. I was rooting for Sinner but Djoko played really well to me better than his any level at slams last year.
So the question shouldn't be eligible due to huge gap. Comparing player who didn't played final to 2 HC slam winner + YEC + NO1.

 

[Third Serve]

Wait we’re putting AO 04 Safin vs Agassi in the trash now? Checks out

Some of these Djokovic fans are getting greedy with the amount of ground they're insistent on taking relative to how little ground they consider yielding. 04 Safin-Agassi being rated this low was not even a point of debate three years ago.

 

[RS]

Some of these Djokovic fans are getting greedy with the amount of ground they're insistent on taking relative to how little ground they consider yielding. 04 Safin-Agassi being rated this low was not even a point of debate three years ago.

Djokovic Thiem AO 20 final or Roddick Aynaoui AO 03 QF?

 

[nolefam_2024]

2007-2013 competition (2019 too) was better than most other years right? like 2021-2023 and 2004-2006 earlier too. and most if not all other years between. If you don't believe this then idk what to discuss.

Djokovic's 2023 slam competition was not good. AO was okay IMO regardless he would have won AO 2023 maybe he was even better than 2021.
One way or another Djokovic is more successfull than Federer in their 30's. In their young years aswell. Federer is better during his best years than Djokovic.

Federer from 2010 to at the end of 2016 just won 2 slam. Age 29 to 35. You just can't explain this only with competition i mean Djokovic's better stats. Federer lost to many players he shouldn't have lost.

Isn't that exactly same conversation as every single one broad conversation here?

No sane Nolefam believes djokovic today faced competition as in 2011-13.

But at the same time the miscreants bring up his failures in 2012-14 while not recognizing the strength of the era.

2010 is far poorer year at slams than 2012. But does that matter.

Every single conversation comes down to strong and weak nowadays. If that is not the most futile argumentation I don't know what is..

And I can fully understand why this happens. The nostalgia merchants are very sad for some time now. They didn't want this reality upon them so always tried to make Djokovic into a villain or less than his rivals. They shifted goalposts as much as they could but today when no one is taking them as serious they have resorted to these kind of arguments.

 

[Third Serve]

My dude, tennis is 'bout the only thing better in '24 than in '4. Like seriously the only genius thing about Andre Agassi of '04 was that he made the game look super fast by running in goddamn slow motion

one of your best yet

 

[BauerAlmeida]

You have zero ability to predict what will happen and your hypothetical opinions are useless.

That was indeed a good call. Djokovic ended up nowhere near 20 slams.