Worst day since awhile

[S&V-not_dead_yet]

Lol ok, those points are valid, but you do know they are 12-14year old kids right?

So what? I've lost to a 14-year old in doubles 1&1. I lost to a 12-year old in doubles too. WTF does age have to do with it? They're better than I am. I have no hangups about losing to someone better than I am.

11 is where I draw the line.

 

[S&V-not_dead_yet]

Once you realize how insignificant what you are trying to do is and how there are tons of players just like you out there, you'll begin to enjoy the process more.

The better I get, the more I'm aware of how many more people out there are better than I.

 

[Keendog]

This is actually a great thread. Some good advice for a change

 

[xFullCourtTenniSx]

Lol ok, those points are valid, but you do know they are 12-14year old kids right?

In competitive tennis, none of that matters. Roddick learned this the hard way in 2005-2006. If you underestimate your opponent and take wins for granted, you WILL lose. The bottom line is can you solve the problem that is beating your opponent before they beat you?

If you do enough research, you'll find that having the perfect technique isn't what the best players chase. Small tweaks will be made now and then, but all that matters is getting the job done in a match. More intelligent and experienced players will know that they're unlikely to brute force their way through players of their level and have to build or at least set up a point to win it.

PS: You might find the section where Federer and his team talk about his mentality and its evolution over time (41:38).

 

[FiReFTW]

@FiReFTW

I think @mcs1970 was only trying to help you, give you his advises based on what you showed and he saw. For what it's worth, that's what "a third" person sees from you.

For me I would appreciate any input anyone takes time to give, and ..do some filtering and move on. Considering, perspectives are often very subjective, then comes the ability to apply stuff advised, and plus one's own biased interests in this hobby (some advice perfectly legit and important but completely uninteresting to a rec player), ...there's just too much variables, I don't know why anyone would get hyper up for it.

I dont understand this post, yes he posted alot of stuff in this thread and yes he is sharing his experience and opinion.
Nothing wrong with it, I just dont agree with some of the things and argumented it and offered my point of view.
If you are assuming im bothered or somehow annoyed by some of his posts your assuming wrong, nothing wrong at all, all opinions and thoughts are welcomed and appreciated.

What though is a fundamental flaw? There are people who say Graf had a very late contact on her forehand and no coach would teach you to hit like that but at that time, it was considered the best forehand on the women's side.

Based on your videos, if what you set out to achieve was to have technique that isn't extremely compromised, you have probably already achieved that. What you also need now is to work out how you want to play in matches so as to win. Because let me tell you, unless you have the biggest shots among all the recs in your era, you will probably not play in matches the way you play in practice and will need to work out a strategy for that.

Well, theres some point to this, however theres alot of shots you need to work a ton on, to make them consistent and good, not so much technique wise but working on specific shots, like low bouncing angled shots completely different shot than high bouncing ones, tons of different types of volleys, slices, short balls of all heights and spins etc... and those are just shots then theres footwork and everything, theres so much things to work on and get to a fairly proficient level that it really does take probably 5-7 years of extensive practice coupled with matchplay to really build xour game from ground up and being able to execute every shot fairly well and consistently.

As I'm getting better at tennis, I feel like most of my bad outcomes are a result of poor mental game. Physically and technically my game has become pretty well-rounded, but I mainly lose due to things like poor shot selection, playing too big/risky for the situation, playing too timid/safe for the situation, underestimating my opponent, inability to control emotions/frustration, getting demoralized, applying the wrong strategy and the list goes on. Of course you can increase your chances by raising your level, but its not realistic to boost your skills during a match, its more viable to improve your mentality, that is the one thing that can be the difference maker. These days I'm starting to feel like tennis is 90% mentality. Maybe make a list of the things that are affecting you, then try to come up with solutions. There's a good reason why many top tennis players are pretty humble and always respect their opponents, if you underestimate your opponent and then you start losing to them, then its easy to get frustrated, mentally implode and the rest is history.

Great, I agree!

So what? I've lost to a 14-year old in doubles 1&1. I lost to a 12-year old in doubles too. WTF does age have to do with it? They're better than I am. I have no hangups about losing to someone better than I am.

11 is where I draw the line.

No, again I said these juniors are UTR8+ so i play freely against them cuz i dont care if I lose and I expect to and no shame in it, i struggle more when someone I think i should beat is on the other side, thats what I meant with this.

 

[mcs1970]

@FiReFTW You said this: "No, again I said these juniors are UTR8+ so i play freely against them cuz i dont care if I lose and I expect to and no shame in it, i struggle more when someone I think i should beat is on the other side, thats what I meant with this."


I play against a guy who used to be a 5.0. Still a high 4.5. I play well though I will never beat him. Pace by itself doesn't bother me. Then I play a 4.0 and I struggle. My conclusion...my technique and footwork are not good enough to consistently generate pace or to consistently hit balls that are not in an optimum hitting zone for me. So those are the things I have to work on.


You have the same experience. Your conclusion....My strokes are so beautiful. I'm better than that dumb 4.0 guy with hacker strokes. Why am I not beating him or why do I struggle to beat him?

See the difference?

 

[FiReFTW]

You have the same experience. Your conclusion....My strokes are so beautiful. I'm better than that dumb 4.0 guy with hacker strokes. Why am I not beating him or why do I struggle to beat him?

Why do you assume this?

I just said I feel more pressure playing someone weaker, and feel zero pressure playing someone really good, but im improving in this area and working on it.

And I know why I lose most of my points, this year's summer league was the first competition I was a part of in tennis and it revelaled alot of things to me, whats good, whats working well, whats bad, where I lose most my points etc... so I have a clear picture now and me and my coach have a good idea which things we will focus on this winter.

 

[mcs1970]

Why do you assume this?

I just said I feel more pressure playing someone weaker, and feel zero pressure playing someone really good, but im improving in this area and working on it.

And I know why I lose most of my points, this year's summer league was the first competition I was a part of in tennis and it revelaled alot of things to me, whats good, whats working well, whats bad, where I lose most my points etc... so I have a clear picture now and me and my coach have a good idea which things we will focus on this winter.

Your words that you use routinely tells this regardless of what you're saying. I'm not assuming anything. Else why would you say "I struggle against peope l I think I should beat". Why would you think you should beat someone? Have you won at the 3.5 level handily and then moved on to the 4.0 level where too you have won handily?

Do you think a 4.5 or a 5.0 who has moved properly up the ranks routinely struggle against lower tier players? They'll beat them easily most of the times. It's because they've paid their dues and won at every level before moving up to the next. With that, there is a certain confidence built. When you walk into a match against lower ranked players after hitting with higher ranked players, that confidence is missing because you've skipped certain steps, and in your heart you know it. You know your base is not strong enough to beat those lower ranked players because despite hitting well with better players (which btw a lot of us do), you're not fundamentally strong enough to put these lower ranked players away easily. Until then you need to accept that you yourself are the same level as those people "you think" you should beat but struggle against. If I watch someone at the rec level struggle against other players at a certain level, my observation as a neutral observer would be that both players are at the same level.

 

[FiReFTW]

Your words that you use routinely tells this regardless of what you're saying. I'm not assuming anything. Else why would you say "I struggle against peope l I think I should beat". Why would you think you should beat someone? Have you won at the 3.5 level handily and then moved on to the 4.0 level where too you have won handily?

Do you think a 4.5 or a 5.0 who has moved properly up the ranks routinely struggle against lower tier players? They'll beat them easily most of the times. It's because they've paid their dues and won at every level before moving up to the next. With that, there is a certain confidence built. When you walk into a match against lower ranked players after hitting with higher ranked players, that confidence is missing because you've skipped certain steps, and in your heart you know it. You know your base is not strong enough to beat those lower ranked players because despite hitting well with better players (which btw a lot of us do), you're not fundamentally strong enough to put these lower ranked players away easily. Until then you need to accept that you yourself are the same level as those people "you think" you should beat but struggle against. If I watch someone at the rec level struggle against other players at a certain level, my observation as a neutral observer would be that both players are at the same level.

Yes you are right.

 

[AlexSV]

Do you think a 4.5 or a 5.0 who has moved properly up the ranks routinely struggle against lower tier players? They'll beat them easily most of the times. It's because they've paid their dues and won at every level before moving up to the next. With that, there is a certain confidence built. When you walk into a match against lower ranked players after hitting with higher ranked players, that confidence is missing because you've skipped certain steps, and in your heart you know it. You know your base is not strong enough to beat those lower ranked players because despite hitting well with better players (which btw a lot of us do), you're not fundamentally strong enough to put these lower ranked players away easily. Until then you need to accept that you yourself are the same level as those people "you think" you should beat but struggle against. If I watch someone at the rec level struggle against other players at a certain level, my observation as a neutral observer would be that both players are at the same level.

This is makes sense. I played my first league and walked away a couple times wondering how the 65 year old retiree beat me. You may be able to hit the ball better, but they can play better.

 

[ByeByePoly]

This is makes sense. I played my first league and walked away a couple times wondering how the 65 year old retiree beat me. You may be able to hit the ball better, but they can play better.

Reminds me of one of my favorite tennis memories. A good friend is playing against a guy I played against in a prior tournament. I knew he was going to drive my buddy nuts because his strokes were unorthodox ... but very difficult to beat. I am watching the match from bleachers on the side of the court ... and my friend is getting madder and madder because he was not seeing past this guy's strokes to realize how good a player he was. At one point ... my friend loses it and yells out ... "how am I not beating his guy ... I am so much better than him". Before my "edit" could kick in ... I said "not from where I am sitting". Luckily he laughed ... big guy.

 

[ubercat]

Haha I lost once to a 12 year old kid at an open tournament. The problem was fitness. I was a fat salad dodging ******* at the time and that was my third match. I got into this weird mental loop thinking I had to beat him with skills when all I had to do with hit it over the net which is what he was doing. So it's possible that happened to you. You had high expectations of yourself and kept trying to make sure shots that just weren't working that day.

 

[xFullCourtTenniSx]

I play against a guy who used to be a 5.0. Still a high 4.5. I play well though I will never beat him. Pace by itself doesn't bother me. Then I play a 4.0 and I struggle. My conclusion...my technique and footwork are not good enough to consistently generate pace or to consistently hit balls that are not in an optimum hitting zone for me. So those are the things I have to work on.

This happens too often to too many players, and they take too long to come to this conclusion. This is what I mean about a ball with the intent to crush you versus a ball that doesn't see you as a threat. A ball with the intent to beat you is rarely in your strike zone. A ball that doesn't see you as a threat isn't nearly as much of a challenge even if it has more pace and spin unless it's DRASTICALLY outside of your skill range. The problem is, a lot of younger or less experienced players will always hit the latter ball because they either don't know how to approach competition in anything but a pretty way or they always believe they are better. That's why the lobbers and dinkers have no problems with their shots, because they aren't trying to actively make the other person uncomfortable other than running side to side, which is a very easy skill for any experienced tennis player. Hit, recover, split step, retrieve. Turn the hit to a lob if you need more time, rinse and repeat. It gets to the point where it feels like you're dancing when it's really clean and the rhythm is steady.

Your words that you use routinely tells this regardless of what you're saying. I'm not assuming anything. Else why would you say "I struggle against peope l I think I should beat". Why would you think you should beat someone? Have you won at the 3.5 level handily and then moved on to the 4.0 level where too you have won handily?

Do you think a 4.5 or a 5.0 who has moved properly up the ranks routinely struggle against lower tier players? They'll beat them easily most of the times. It's because they've paid their dues and won at every level before moving up to the next. With that, there is a certain confidence built. When you walk into a match against lower ranked players after hitting with higher ranked players, that confidence is missing because you've skipped certain steps, and in your heart you know it. You know your base is not strong enough to beat those lower ranked players because despite hitting well with better players (which btw a lot of us do), you're not fundamentally strong enough to put these lower ranked players away easily. Until then you need to accept that you yourself are the same level as those people "you think" you should beat but struggle against. If I watch someone at the rec level struggle against other players at a certain level, my observation as a neutral observer would be that both players are at the same level.

This is why I constantly underrate myself. Give me messy players, and I'll scrap with them. It'll be ugly, but I don't expect an easy win if I do win. Then give me these kids that people think are good, I'll beat them or make them struggle, while I struggle. My conclusion is that we all suck. My friends' conclusion is that I'm much better than I think. The opinion of the kids I beat is that I'm better than I think, but that they also played poorly (which means I did my job), except for the few with a good mentality that recognize a good match was played, even if mistakes were made (which is a natural thing in tennis). A coach will ask if I play 4.5 or 5.0 based on my strokes, I say ********, probably 4.0. He says ********, too consistent/clean and too much variety. I say, watch me struggle in a match. All in all, probably high 4.0 to low 4.5 given I consistently lose by 2 breaks to a 5.0 player. Thinking back, the difference is entirely mental. Decision-making and shot selection as well as will to fight through fatigue are the real key differences I notice. When I can keep up mentally and play smarter tennis, it's totally even, but I break down mentally due to fatigue faster and get discouraged more easily off of mistakes.

 

[user92626]

The better I get, the more I'm aware of how many more people out there are better than I.

Not for me.

The better I get, the less I'm aware of how many more people out there are better than I. Eg.

Or,

The better I get, the more I'm aware of how many more people out there are worse than I. Eg. Johnny is bad, Sonny is bad. After today, I also know Jason sucks @SS in singles.

 

[BetaServe]

But against players that are worse (even if they play for 15 or 20 years and actually are better tennis players than me at the moment) it feels embarassing to lose to them, not because I don't respect their level and all, because my strokes look much more advanced and losing to people like that would make me look silly for other people watching or whatever, like how could he lose to that guy?

I find this funny.

 

[ptuanminh]

I find this funny.

He hasn't figured out that at least at our level or even 4.5, quality of strokes is not the deciding factor.
IMO, its the legs, which probably not his strong point.

 

[snoflewis]

He hasn't figured out that at least at our level or even 4.5, quality of strokes is not the deciding factor.
IMO, its the legs, which probably not his strong point.

it's not even the quality of the actual stroke he's whining about. It's that his swing "looks" more advanced than the people he's losing to. Unfortunately his results say otherwise.

 

[user92626]

I freaking swear...deluded people are the happiest people.


Why are you guys pi$$ing on other people's parades?

 

[BetaServe]

“i struggle more when someone I think i should beat is on the other side, thats what I meant with this”

If you struggle against someone you should beat then you’re at the same level as they are. It just means you’re not as good as you think you are

 

[Sea70]

There are some Jr’s that falls into a trap because of the way they train. The coach is partly to blame but they need their job. The ones I see all have parents that aren’t too familiar with tennis but are heavily involved in their kids game. Let’s call one of these kids James. James has been coached for a few years. James hits a lot of fed balls usually without a lot of movement. James looks and hits great when the balls are coming to him in a controlled situation. The parents wont let James play many practice matches with local kids because they feel the kids aren’t good enough to play with him. They also don’t want to take the chance of James losing to one of these kids that has funny strokes and don’t look like a good tennis player and definitely not to a younger player. The parents really like what they see in practice and decide it’s time for James to start playing in tournaments. The parents decide James should definitely start in the advance level. James goes to a tournament and loses in the first round. His parents justify the loss by saying James is still working on his strokes and is actually a better player than his opponent because his technique is cleaner. So James plays some more tournaments and is usually knocked out in the first or second round. The parents can’t understand why those perfect strokes In practice can’t hold up in tournaments. The parents at that time decide it’s time to pull James out of tournaments all together and just train for a while. They are going to get his strokes so perfect that he won’t make all those unforced errors he was making in tournaments. A year goes by and the parents decides James is definitely ready for tournaments this time. In his first tournament, he meets up with one of the the boys he lost to a year ago. The parents watch the warm up between the 2 boys and they have a smile on their face. They are thinking, this is going to be too easy. It doesn’t take long for James to lose both sets . James and his parents want to quit tennis altogether.

Fire, I’ve read a lot of your posts. If you are trying to reach Utr level of 10-11 and you started in your 20s, you are going to need to learn to play a lot of matches under pressure. I’m talking hundreds and hundreds and even then its going to be extremely tough but I think it’s great your going for it. From your videos I’m pretty sure eventually you’ll hit pretty good but the mental toughness it’s going to take to get to the level I think you are trying to reach will be difficult.

Some suggestions.
1. Stop overthinking your matches.
2. Every player has their weakness but a lot of players don’t know or don’t want to fix their weakness. I think you need to work on movement a lot more than strokes. You should also work on fitness and conditioning. If you’re tired physically, it is way easier to break down mentally. I think I read that you want to eventually be a tournament player. There is a big difference between playing one match a week vs playing 4 or 5 matches within 2 or 3 days.
3. I don’t believe there should ever be an excuse for losing. If your opponent beats you, he’s a better player that day. Shake his hand after the match, Be proud you played your best and go back and train more .
4. Understand the difference between practice matches and real matches. Practice matches are where you need to practice the things you’re no good at. It’s very hard to do that if you’re concerned with results. Let’s say you are working on a backhand down the line and you’re at the point where you can do it in drills. You’re either going to practice it in practice matches or real matches. But I believe once you are in a real match, winning should be the only goal. Learning to win is a skill in itself.

 

[S&V-not_dead_yet]

No, again I said these juniors are UTR8+ so i play freely against them cuz i dont care if I lose and I expect to and no shame in it, i struggle more when someone I think i should beat is on the other side, thats what I meant with this.

Those are your expectations driving your play and making you tense and more likely to play poorly. When you learn to let go of your expectations, this will cease to be a problem. I still don't think you've recognized how much of a burden your expectations are.

 

[FiReFTW]

There are some Jr’s that falls into a trap because of the way they train. The coach is partly to blame but they need their job. The ones I see all have parents that aren’t too familiar with tennis but are heavily involved in their kids game. Let’s call one of these kids James. James has been coached for a few years. James hits a lot of fed balls usually without a lot of movement. James looks and hits great when the balls are coming to him in a controlled situation. The parents wont let James play many practice matches with local kids because they feel the kids aren’t good enough to play with him. They also don’t want to take the chance of James losing to one of these kids that has funny strokes and don’t look like a good tennis player and definitely not to a younger player. The parents really like what they see in practice and decide it’s time for James to start playing in tournaments. The parents decide James should definitely start in the advance level. James goes to a tournament and loses in the first round. His parents justify the loss by saying James is still working on his strokes and is actually a better player than his opponent because his technique is cleaner. So James plays some more tournaments and is usually knocked out in the first or second round. The parents can’t understand why those perfect strokes In practice can’t hold up in tournaments. The parents at that time decide it’s time to pull James out of tournaments all together and just train for a while. They are going to get his strokes so perfect that he won’t make all those unforced errors he was making in tournaments. A year goes by and the parents decides James is definitely ready for tournaments this time. In his first tournament, he meets up with one of the the boys he lost to a year ago. The parents watch the warm up between the 2 boys and they have a smile on their face. They are thinking, this is going to be too easy. It doesn’t take long for James to lose both sets . James and his parents want to quit tennis altogether.

Fire, I’ve read a lot of your posts. If you are trying to reach Utr level of 10-11 and you started in your 20s, you are going to need to learn to play a lot of matches under pressure. I’m talking hundreds and hundreds and even then its going to be extremely tough but I think it’s great your going for it. From your videos I’m pretty sure eventually you’ll hit pretty good but the mental toughness it’s going to take to get to the level I think you are trying to reach will be difficult.

Some suggestions.
1. Stop overthinking your matches.
2. Every player has their weakness but a lot of players don’t know or don’t want to fix their weakness. I think you need to work on movement a lot more than strokes. You should also work on fitness and conditioning. If you’re tired physically, it is way easier to break down mentally. I think I read that you want to eventually be a tournament player. There is a big difference between playing one match a week vs playing 4 or 5 matches within 2 or 3 days.
3. I don’t believe there should ever be an excuse for losing. If your opponent beats you, he’s a better player that day. Shake his hand after the match, Be proud you played your best and go back and train more .
4. Understand the difference between practice matches and real matches. Practice matches are where you need to practice the things you’re no good at. It’s very hard to do that if you’re concerned with results. Let’s say you are working on a backhand down the line and you’re at the point where you can do it in drills. You’re either going to practice it in practice matches or real matches. But I believe once you are in a real match, winning should be the only goal. Learning to win is a skill in itself.

Wow amazingly written. You seem to have alot of experience with this?

 

[FiReFTW]

Those are your expectations driving your play and making you tense and more likely to play poorly. When you learn to let go of your expectations, this will cease to be a problem. I still don't think you've recognized how much of a burden your expectations are.

I do but isnt it normal that when u practice and work hard at something you expect some results and are a bit afraid that u put so much effort and yet you got nothing in return?

 

[Dolgopolov85]

I do but isnt it normal that when u practice and work hard at something you expect some results and are a bit afraid that u put so much effort and yet you got nothing in return?

Yes and no. The thing is, your hard work still essentially involves doing drills and practice with a coach and maybe a few players. You have no way to know what the FIELD of players out there is going to be, how good they are, how experienced they are. Top pros get their opposition research in advance and come well prepared. But how do you as a rec prepare for what kind of balls the other guy is going to throw at you? You can't, really. The only way recs compensate is by playing lots of matches and against a variety of players so their experience tells them what to do in different situations.

And UNLESS you have developed a game that simply goes right through anybody else out there in the league, you will have to patiently go through the process of accumulating enough experience to tackle different opponents and win. In over five years of playing, I have seen TWO recs who hit so hard and with so much spin that the power simply blows you away and yet they don't miss or overhit. Two, that's it. Most players who do well at tournaments don't have spectacular game. They are just extremely efficient and consistent. As Fullcourttennis mentioned, they can consistently produce balls that hurt you and they know they don't have to do anything more from that point because you will essentially beat yourself in trying to counter attack.

 

[Chadalina]

I do but isnt it normal that when u practice and work hard at something you expect some results and are a bit afraid that u put so much effort and yet you got nothing in return?

Its a very hard thing to explain. Judgement leads to expectations, judging is something your doing everytime you step on the court and comparing (bad word in tennis). Something cannot be good unless something else is bad type mentality.

Have you ever read the "inner game of tennis"? They had a great analogy of judging a sprouting rose, looking at it for what it is currently is instead of what it will be. I forget the rest, but its a great book and i usually hate them.

 

[FiReFTW]

Yes and no. The thing is, your hard work still essentially involves doing drills and practice with a coach and maybe a few players. You have no way to know what the FIELD of players out there is going to be, how good they are, how experienced they are. Top pros sometimes their opposition research in advance and come well prepared. But how do you as a rec prepare for what kind of balls the other guy is going to throw at you? You can't, really. The only way recs compensate is by playing lots of matches and against a variety of players so their experience tells them what to do in different situations.

Another great post, what do all of you guys play for like 10 years, you all have such vast wisdom and knowledge about this.

 

[FiReFTW]

Btw it makes sense that if you say play a type of player you figure out in time what works best and what not and all, but what if you dont? Like what if ur not sure what is the best strategy and cant figure it out? Do you just try everything from A to Z to see?

 

[Dolgopolov85]

Another great post, what do all of you guys play for like 10 years, you all have such vast wisdom and knowledge about this.

Five and a half for more. I guess it's more about what variety of opponents you see. I have seen heavy topspin hulks, slicers, serve volleyers, moonballers, human walls and everything in between. One lanky guy I played had a very easy and relaxed service motion but the bounce he would get on his serves was monstrous. I would probably deal with it better today but I don't know. His action was deceptive and I couldn't tell if he was going to go wide or down the T until it was too late to adjust. It was a doubles game and we lost 6-1. But we felt great even about that one game we managed to take, that's how badly we were getting pounded.

 

[Dolgopolov85]

Btw it makes sense that if you say play a type of player you figure out in time what works best and what not and all, but what if you dont? Like what if ur not sure what is the best strategy and cant figure it out? Do you just try everything from A to Z to see?

Maybe not EVERYTHING but certainly a few things. If your opponent is very baseline oriented and reasonably young, I would say slicing a lot is good provided you are able to execute it well in match play. My current partner is a human wall and I have yet to even take him to a tiebreak, let alone beat him. But I do find I have success slicing against him. Slices, volleys, smashes, drops, basically the all court range. My game has probably matured enough I can do that without my groundies going cold. That used to happen before which would make me reluctant to go for it.

 

[Chadalina]

Another great post, what do all of you guys play for like 10 years, you all have such vast wisdom and knowledge about this.

We have lost many matches. Say you have 100 bad days in a row, what changes would you make aside from hoping your opponent plays bad?

You hit a really nice ball but its in the strike zone, if you cannot get it above the shoulder or below the knee its like a ball machine for a good opponent.

Tennis doesnt really get hard until your opponent hits everything in else as well, then strategic. You get hardened as far as mechanics, but it becomes very difficult when you have to do more.

 

[mcs1970]

I do but isnt it normal that when u practice and work hard at something you expect some results and are a bit afraid that u put so much effort and yet you got nothing in return?

Why do you say that? You are getting something invaluable every time you play a match. Matches gives you feedback loop. Maybe some things that work great in practice have to be completely changed since it does not work in real games. Maybe some other things you just have to tweak slightly. You have to make those decisions based upon what your match feedback loop is telling you.

It took a lot of tweaking, a lot of iterations of practices + matches for me to finally come up with a good 2nd serve that I can confidently hit even in clutch situations.

 

[FiReFTW]

Why do you say that? You are getting something invaluable every time you play a match. Matches gives you feedback loop. Maybe some things that work great in practice have to be completely changed since it does not work in real games. Maybe some other things you just have to tweak slightly. You have to make those decisions based upon what your match feedback loop is telling you.

It took a lot of tweaking, a lot of iterations of practices + matches for me to finally come up with a good 2nd serve that I can confidently hit even in clutch situations.

Yeah thats a very good point, this year's summer league did show me alot of things, some things that work and get me alot of points, and other things where I lose a TON of points, so im currently working this winter on improving those things that lose me a ton of points, if I make massive improvements there then I should do much much better.

 

[FiReFTW]

I just know I tend to lose many matches where I feel like I should have won or at least done more, seems like I really do need hundreds more matches, the most interesting comparison is with my friend, we played around 10 times now already

He plays for the same amount of time since I started (tho he played tennis in high school), but we both have different ways we did tennis during this time:

1st year I hit with friend once per week, or sometimes instead of that some coaching, then did a bit more coaching for 6 months and in the last 1.5 years I do alot of coaching constantly, and I started summer league this summer and play more matches now
He does coaching once per week since the start didn't change at all, and the rest he just plays matches, did summer league last year and now this year

Of the 10 times we played I have won a whooping 0 times


And the most frustrating thing is that he doesn't really DESTROY ME, he did have a great match once where I played badly and really crushed me, but other matches are all very competitive but he just seems to be able to win all the important points, it feels like hes a mental giant and winner, while im a mental midget and loser

Example of last set, where I felt like I played rly good overall:

He serves, I play some good points and up 15:40, end up winning it with a good short winner 1:0 for me
Good service game from me, clean, effective, fast.. 2:0 for me
Some good returns and im up 0:40, then I think about the possibility to go up 3:0 and get kind of hesitant (not willing to be too aggressive just keeping the ball in and it fails) 40:40, I loosen up again... I have 3 times AD, but 3 times blow it after, then he gets AD, 2:1...
Again good service game from me, very comfortable hold 3:1...
Hes up 40:30, I even at 40:40, again some ADS for me, some for him, very very long game.. probably 10 minutes.. he ends up edging it out, I make some horrible decisions and some bad miss 3:2...
Horrible service game from me, 2 double faults, good serve 15:30... bad mistake 15:40.. now im nervious, lose the point 3:3...
Now he holds fairly comfortably 4:3...
Decent service game from me 4:4...
Again up 15:40... this is my chance.. 30:40... ok I get an easy short ball.. LONG.. 40:40... again some ADS for me, but he ends up edging me again.. 5:4
If I lose this service game I lose the set.... cmon... yeah double fault 0:15... bad mistake 0:30.. dammit.. 15:30 good serve... 30:30... now long nice point but he ends up getting it 30:40... yeah double fault again.. set over

Analyzing it all, it could have even ended up like 6:1 for me if some things went better or more my way, and its like this alot of times, sometimes I don't play well and its not, but when I do its usually like this, where I feel like I could have easily win the set or match and yet I always end up losing, almost like something is trolling me.

So I really do need hundreds and hundreds of matches like someone said, this surely shows it, because its quite crazy.

I hope this is not seen as a rant, im just genuenly curious as to what you guys think about this fact that I tend to lose 95% of sets where I feel like I could have easily won them and have many break chances etc..

 

[navigator]

I hope this is not seen as a rant, im just genuenly curious as to what you guys think about this fact that I tend to lose 95% of sets where I feel like I could have easily won them and have many break chances etc..

These folks you're losing to are better than you are. That's why they're consistently winning the important points. Recall that Federer has won just 55% of the points he's played as a professional tennis player and he's one of the all-time greats. He wins the important points - that's why he's great.

Look, you can serve pretty well. Your FH and BH are perfectly fine. The problem is that you're going to lose to anyone who's really consistent, patient and fit because you're not going to overpower them with groundstrokes. And you don't have the discipline to hit 10+ balls to win a point on a consistent basis. So... aside from just practicing serves, FHs and BHs to ingrain them into your muscle memory - so that they're automatic - you have to work on your net game. You've gotta be able to come to net and put away volleys and OHs consistently. Otherwise, the consistent folks are just going to beat you over and over and over. They don't care what your strokes look like and you will not be able to overpower them. You gotta beat these folks at the net. And it's going to be a long process learning how to do this - most rec players never even get that far - so you might as well get started.

If you're not hearing the same things from your coach then s/he must not be particularly competent. The game of tennis just isn't that complicated at the rec level.

 

[S&V-not_dead_yet]

I do but isnt it normal that when u practice and work hard at something you expect some results and are a bit afraid that u put so much effort and yet you got nothing in return?

Yes, it's normal; it's also irrelevant: what is relevant is that you recognize the problem and take steps towards correcting it.

Let me make an analogy: it might be normal to pull your head up while hitting a GS to see where it goes or where your opponent is. However, that can cause all sorts of problems with your stroke so it's better to keep your head down. Whether it's normal is irrelevant. The only relevant thing is that you accept that it's a bad habit and you work on fixing it.

Is it possible that I work hard and get no return? Yes.

Do I think that's likely? No.

Am I going to let that dominate my thinking when I lose? No. Instead, I try to focus on the process and let results take care of themselves. You are still results- and expectations-oriented.

 

[S&V-not_dead_yet]

I just know I tend to lose many matches where I feel like I should have won or at least done more, seems like I really do need hundreds more matches, the most interesting comparison is with my friend, we played around 10 times now already

He plays for the same amount of time since I started (tho he played tennis in high school), but we both have different ways we did tennis during this time:

1st year I hit with friend once per week, or sometimes instead of that some coaching, then did a bit more coaching for 6 months and in the last 1.5 years I do alot of coaching constantly, and I started summer league this summer and play more matches now
He does coaching once per week since the start didn't change at all, and the rest he just plays matches, did summer league last year and now this year

Of the 10 times we played I have won a whooping 0 times


And the most frustrating thing is that he doesn't really DESTROY ME, he did have a great match once where I played badly and really crushed me, but other matches are all very competitive but he just seems to be able to win all the important points, it feels like hes a mental giant and winner, while im a mental midget and loser


I hope this is not seen as a rant, im just genuenly curious as to what you guys think about this fact that I tend to lose 95% of sets where I feel like I could have easily won them and have many break chances etc..

2 suggestions:
- Drop your expectations ["...I feel like I should have won"]
- Stop comparing your journey to someone else's [you do this frequently]

IMO, both are weighing you down and taking focus away from where it should be: your own improvement journey.

As you do these 2 things, your results will quite likely improve even though you haven't been watching them like a hawk [might I suggest that watching them so closely is paradoxically hindering you].

 

[user92626]

You people carry alot of emotional baggage.

You guys bring too much thinking, pride, ego, tension into these stupid recreational games.

Frankly the only time I talk trash or invest a bit of emotion, feelings, this kind of thinking, into the game is when I wanna provoke people into playing. LOL.

Other than that I no longer care about losing and winning though I do know where my skills stand.

A couple days ago someone 25 years my senior, friendly, asked me to play a set of singles. I couldn't hit craps to save my life and lost 0-4 and quit, and I didn't feel anything, and that was in front of some loudmouth people. I praised his game and left.

Weeks back, a new person asked me to play with him. People in my group made a big deal out of it because that guy is known to be a tough opponent. I just didn't get all the commotion. They probably projected their feelings on to me and told me it's ok to lose. I told 'em everything is fine. I've played a lot of so called "serious" matches. I'm ok with losing! That guy turned out to be a dud against me.

Initially he wanted to play every Tuesday with me, being I'm the only person willing. He hasn't returned since that game.

 

[SystemicAnomaly]

I didnt see the ball well, I was uninspired and low energy, feet were lazy, extremely bad decision making, my service games were also very poor

In the 45+ years that I have played tennis, and also badminton, I've had a number of days where I was a bit off. And there have been perhaps a dozen days where my hand-eye coordination, my serve toss and other aspects up my game were Way off.

In EVERY single occurrence, it has been due to a lack of good quality SLEEP. Cannot stress this enufff... adequate sleep of good quality is a MUST. There have been a few times when I did not get enuff sleep and I played ok... for a while. But, then after a honeymoon period on these occasions, my game went seriously downhill.

There have been days when I have been sick (flu or common cold). As long as I got a good night of slerp when sick, I've played ok. In some instances, I've played my best tennis or badminton when I was sick. The only problem being was that I could not breathe as well and my stamina would suffer.

 

[S&V-not_dead_yet]

@FiReFTW,

Watch the Litwin interview again and pay special attention to the part about the 5 judges in black robes [although I think the entire interview is fantastic]:

 

[S&V-not_dead_yet]

How do you mentally get over this quickly?

I just noticed the "quickly" part: the things that have been suggested have no time frame attached. That's up to you: the more attached you are to your expectations, the longer it will take. I'd drop the idea of doing it quickly and just concentrate on doing it.

 

[Morch Us]

Discipline.

If you take a short 3 minute period of any match, you will for sure have those moments where you crush your opponent. Let us call it "highlight reels".

Now let us say player A and player B both are same level (by match results and their head to head, A wins 50% B wins 50%).

Let us say player A has a lot of highlight reels, but player B does not. What does that tell you? That means player B is a lot more disciplined than A. From high light reels, it may look like player B is worse than A. But player A does not have that discipline to keep the level up for longer periods of time, while player B does.

Even at pro level, playing a best of 3 set and winning is not the same as playing best of 5 sets and winning. The longer the match is, the more advantageous it is for disciplined players.

The worst part is that it is very hard to practice this discipline. You just have to tune yourself over a longer period of time.

im just genuenly curious as to what you guys think about this fact that I tend to lose 95% of sets where I feel like I could have easily won them and have many break chances etc

 

[mcs1970]

You people carry alot of emotional baggage.

You guys bring too much thinking, pride, ego, tension into these stupid recreational games.

Frankly the only time I talk trash or invest a bit of emotion, feelings, this kind of thinking, into the game is when I wanna provoke people into playing. LOL.

Other than that I no longer care about losing and winning though I do know where my skills stand.

A couple days ago someone 25 years my senior, friendly, asked me to play a set of singles. I couldn't hit craps to save my life and lost 0-4 and quit, and I didn't feel anything, and that was in front of some loudmouth people. I praised his game and left.

Weeks back, a new person asked me to play with him. People in my group made a big deal out of it because that guy is known to be a tough opponent. I just didn't get all the commotion. They probably projected their feelings on to me and told me it's ok to lose. I told 'em everything is fine. I've played a lot of so called "serious" matches. I'm ok with losing! That guy turned out to be a dud against me.

Initially he wanted to play every Tuesday with me, being I'm the only person willing. He hasn't returned since that game.

Your circle seems like a fun one. People don’t want to play someone better or quit in the middle of matches, or never show up again after a loss. Nice.

 

[user92626]

Well, i can't speak for other guys but this time that i quit i couldn't handle the flaring pain of my TE. The game was getting repetitive at 0-4 anyway.

Anyway, i dont own "my circle". Im not related to anyone. These ppl don't stand out in any way. They are very ordinary in my eyes.

 

[tlm]

These folks you're losing to are better than you are. That's why they're consistently winning the important points. Recall that Federer has won just 55% of the points he's played as a professional tennis player and he's one of the all-time greats. He wins the important points - that's why he's great.

Look, you can serve pretty well. Your FH and BH are perfectly fine. The problem is that you're going to lose to anyone who's really consistent, patient and fit because you're not going to overpower them with groundstrokes. And you don't have the discipline to hit 10+ balls to win a point on a consistent basis. So... aside from just practicing serves, FHs and BHs to ingrain them into your muscle memory - so that they're automatic - you have to work on your net game. You've gotta be able to come to net and put away volleys and OHs consistently. Otherwise, the consistent folks are just going to beat you over and over and over. They don't care what your strokes look like and you will not be able to overpower them. You gotta beat these folks at the net. And it's going to be a long process learning how to do this - most rec players never even get that far - so you might as well get started.

If you're not hearing the same things from your coach then s/he must not be particularly competent. The game of tennis just isn't that complicated at the rec level.

Good points made here.

 

[FiReFTW]

These folks you're losing to are better than you are. That's why they're consistently winning the important points. Recall that Federer has won just 55% of the points he's played as a professional tennis player and he's one of the all-time greats. He wins the important points - that's why he's great.

Look, you can serve pretty well. Your FH and BH are perfectly fine. The problem is that you're going to lose to anyone who's really consistent, patient and fit because you're not going to overpower them with groundstrokes. And you don't have the discipline to hit 10+ balls to win a point on a consistent basis. So... aside from just practicing serves, FHs and BHs to ingrain them into your muscle memory - so that they're automatic - you have to work on your net game. You've gotta be able to come to net and put away volleys and OHs consistently. Otherwise, the consistent folks are just going to beat you over and over and over. They don't care what your strokes look like and you will not be able to overpower them. You gotta beat these folks at the net. And it's going to be a long process learning how to do this - most rec players never even get that far - so you might as well get started.

If you're not hearing the same things from your coach then s/he must not be particularly competent. The game of tennis just isn't that complicated at the rec level.

Yes good points.

My serve or groundstrokes (particularly my fh) tends to get me alot of short balls in a set.
So I attack short balls often and follow them to net, so its something I tend to do fairly often because i get many opportunities to do so.
But I end up missing or blowing ALOT of those short balls or volleys after.

So I already have a plan to focus most of my practice during the winter now on the things where i lose by far the most free points. Short balls, volleys and 2nd serve.

And to also work on my fitness alot.

I think and hope its a good plan, it will show next summer in this league.

 

[FiReFTW]

Discipline.

If you take a short 3 minute period of any match, you will for sure have those moments where you crush your opponent. Let us call it "highlight reels".

Now let us say player A and player B both are same level (by match results and their head to head, A wins 50% B wins 50%).

Let us say player A has a lot of highlight reels, but player B does not. What does that tell you? That means player B is a lot more disciplined than A. From high light reels, it may look like player B is worse than A. But player A does not have that discipline to keep the level up for longer periods of time, while player B does.

Even at pro level, playing a best of 3 set and winning is not the same as playing best of 5 sets and winning. The longer the match is, the more advantageous it is for disciplined players.

The worst part is that it is very hard to practice this discipline. You just have to tune yourself over a longer period of time.

This is one of my weaknesses for sure and i dont actually know how to work on this.
You hit the nail on the head.

My level is so up and down, play great for a while then start missing extrrmely routine and easy balls for a bit like my focus and concentration takes a SEVERE DIP.

It happens in matches and in my practice.
Last time I did 1-1 where I run left and right and hit CC and DDL, started so good lots of exchanges for a few mins.
Then I had like 3 in a row where I couldnt make 2 exchanges all of a sudden and felt like extremely lazy misses and like my focus really dove down. Just comes randomly like this at times.

 

[Dragy]

Reminds me of one of my favorite tennis memories. A good friend is playing against a guy I played against in a prior tournament. I knew he was going to drive my buddy nuts because his strokes were unorthodox ... but very difficult to beat. I am watching the match from bleachers on the side of the court ... and my friend is getting madder and madder because he was not seeing past this guy's strokes to realize how good a player he was. At one point ... my friend loses it and yells out ... "how am I not beating his guy ... I am so much better than him". Before my "edit" could kick in ... I said "not from where I am sitting". Luckily he laughed ... big guy.

Interesting, my regrets usually come out as “how am I not making this shot...”
Dunno which is better. I sometimes doubt if I lack competitiveness, too much focus on process.

 

[FiReFTW]

Interesting, my regrets usually come out as “how am I not making this shot...”
Dunno which is better. I sometimes doubt if I lack competitiveness, too much focus on process.

Yeah happens many times, but im starting to realize it gets u into a negative mindset, im starting to see that the best way to think after missing (specially an easy shot) is to think what you did wrong, you have been playing for a while now so im sure you know exactly why you miss something, just think about doing it correctly in ur head and next time in the same situation change that like you imagined it in your mind.

 

[Dragy]

Yeah happens many times, but im starting to realize it gets u into a negative mindset, im starting to see that the best way to think after missing (specially an easy shot) is to think what you did wrong, you have been playing for a while now so im sure you know exactly why you miss something, just think about doing it correctly in ur head and next time in the same situation change that like you imagined it in your mind.

Yeah you are right, but the part it’s sometimes still pure shot selection. Like been working on hitting high sitters with authority from just inside the court... but a high-bouncing roller is not a sitter, even though it bounced short and flies to same location to get crushed... just NO! And sometimes it takes getting home to realize those mistakes
I was more referring to having those thoughts opposed to the “should be able to beat him”. I know it’s about making the shot, but seems I tend to skip the “selecting the shot” part - he’s not as good that I need to destroy the ball...

 

[FiReFTW]

Yeah you are right, but the part it’s sometimes still pure shot selection. Like been working on hitting high sitters with authority from just inside the court... but a high-bouncing roller is not a sitter, even though it bounced short and flies to same location to get crushed... just NO! And sometimes it takes getting home to realize those mistakes
I was more referring to having those thoughts opposed to the “should be able to beat him”. I know it’s about making the shot, but seems I tend to skip the “selecting the shot” part - he’s not as good that I need to destroy the ball...

Yes shot selection is huge and takes by far the longest time to make good, ive read somewhere that for someone that dedicates to tennis and really works hard on it and wants to become a decent player it takes about 5-6 years to build all ur shots and strokes to a good level in all different situations and applying them in a match, and it takes 5-6 more years to learn how to win games and tournaments and essentially become a tournament player (meaning tactics, shot selection etc)

Ive been working on short sitters too lately (high and low ones, all types) and yes you should learn how to crush them with authority and work hard on that, because it will make ur life so much easier, specially when u force many short balls and have the ability to end those points consistently.

What do you mean by a high bouncing roller?