Would Graf have broken Navratilova's Wimbledon singles record without being injured?

[thalivest]

This might be irrelevant but I'll say it anyway: Had Monica Seles not been stabbed Graf would've just been an A- champion. Seles would've won AU, FO and UO 1993 - 1996.

That might have also meant no UO & FO for Arantxa and no Wimby for Conchita.

Yes since we all know Monica would have continued to be so lucky to never suffer any injuries, illnesses, or personal setbacks from 1993-1996, which she was lucky enough to have none of in 1991-1992. Actually we can already say that would not have been the case as she was having shoulder problems in 1996, as well as dealing with her fathers illness from 1995 onwards. On top of that we can just assume Monica would always beat Graf at the U.S Open when they never played on a surface faster then clay (rebound ace back then was even slower then clay) in the pre stabbing days, and when Monica struggled mightily to even beat Graf on clay.

As for Sanchez, maybe Pierce would have played the amazing semi vs Seles instead of Graf, taken Seles out for Sanchez, and then still go on to choke in the final vs Sanchez the same way she did after beating Graf . Pierce would certainly have beaten everyone, including Seles, that day. If you think otherwise, has Seles ever beaten Graf by a score like 6-2, 6-2 at the French Open, or anywhere for that matter, like Pierce did in that semifinal? No.

As for Martinez if Seles keeps the #1 ranking then maybe all that happens is Graf does not play McNeil in the first round (I assume the draws is different now, especialy if you believe Seles is ranked #1), and the shock upset does not happen, and Graf is the one who goes on to win Wimbledon that year instead of either Martinez or Seles. Who knows.

Anyway this thread is about Wimbledon where Monica had little or no relevence to Steffi's success anyway. With all due respect nobody really gives a damn about Conchita Martinez either, and nobody would lose sleep over whether she won a slam or not.

 

[flying24]

She most likely would have. 1997 and 1998 were hers for sure had she stayed healthy. From 1999 onwards it would have been more challenging with the power hitters Davenport, Venus, Serena at their peak and by then she would be 30 years old and older. She probably would have gotten the 10th some year from 1999-2001, just hard to say which one.

 

[rolandg]

Id she hadn't been injured, yes she most likely would have. However, if she hadn't pushed herself so much, which caused the injuries, she wouldn't have won the ones she did, so this is a stupid thread.

 

[totaleclipseoftheheart]

The question is: Would Graf have won 22 GS titles had Seles not been stabbed?

 

[MEAC_ALLAMERICAN]

Would have Graf gotten to even be mentioned in this section, if Seles never got stabbed?

 

[MEAC_ALLAMERICAN]

The question is: Would Graf have won 22 GS titles had Seles not been stabbed?

WOW!!! I wished I had thought of this

 

[rolandg]

The real question is, how many Wimbledon's could Martina Navratilova have won if she had stayed 28 forever?

 

[flying24]

Id she hadn't been injured, yes she most likely would have. However, if she hadn't pushed herself so much, which caused the injuries, she wouldn't have won the ones she did, so this is a stupid thread.

I honestly think it was contorting her back to hit those runaround forehands time and time again that was so damaging to her back over time. If she learnt to ever hit a proper drive backhand it would have helped her in more ways then one.

 

[Deleted member 3771]

I vote yes, she was in a different class to everyone else around and was winning 3 slams a year before the injurys, so she would have continued her dominance.

 

[flying24]

I vote yes, she was in a different class to everyone else around and was winning 3 slams a year before the injury, so she would have continued her dominance.

Granted the emergence of the power hitters like Venus, Serena, Lindsay were soon around the corner, as well as old age of 30 or over. However she had atleast 2 years (1997, 1998) before either really began.

 

[CEvertFan]

I honestly think it was contorting her back to hit those runaround forehands time and time again that was so damaging to her back over time. If she learnt to ever hit a proper drive backhand it would have helped her in more ways then one.

Agreed. Although it was and still is one of the most fearsome shots ever in the women's game, the Graf forehand was very unorthodox in that she hit it late and often while completely off the ground and I agree that it put a lot of strain on her back over time. She had a decent topspin backhand but wasn't confident enough in the shot to use it regularly, preferring to rely on her very steady slice instead. If the game hadn't moved away from serve/volley tennis then Graf would have had no choice but to use the topspin backhand for passing shots and it would have developed into a more confident consistent shot, but even so her topspin backhand did win her two Wimbledon titles over Navratilova, particularly in the 1988 final.

 

[LDVTennis]

I honestly think it was contorting her back to hit those runaround forehands time and time again that was so damaging to her back over time. If she learnt to ever hit a proper drive backhand it would have helped her in more ways then one.

Steffi had a bone spur on of her vertebrae. The condition was determined to be congenital.

The normal twisting motion from just playing tennis would have been enough to aggravate the condition.

In 1994-1995, Steffi made the decision not to have the bone spur removed surgically. Doing so might have ended her tennis career. Instead, she adopted a new physical conditioning program which involved more stretching and flexibility training. The new program seems to have ameliorated the condition.

 

[Nadalbestever]

Steffi Graf would have never won Wimbledon again if Monica Seles wasnt stabbed. Monica was going to win every Wimbledon from 1993-1998 and end up with 6 Wimbledons to Steffi's 4 without the stabbing. Steffi's 1992 Wimbledon title though should be stripped and given to Monica. The only reason Steffi won was because Monica wasnt allowed to grunt, so Steffi's title in 92 is tainted and not even real anymore and should be stripped and given to Monica. Lets face it, everyone knows Monica would have crushed Steffi in that final if she had been allowed to grunt. The 91 Wimbledon title also would have been Monica's had she not been hurt and able to play, but injuries or part of the game so Steffi deserved that one, although lucky.

 

[CEvertFan]

Steffi Graf would have never won Wimbledon again if Monica Seles wasnt stabbed. Monica was going to win every Wimbledon from 1993-1998 and end up with 6 Wimbledons to Steffi's 4 without the stabbing. Steffi's 1992 Wimbledon title though should be stripped and given to Monica. The only reason Steffi won was because Monica wasnt allowed to grunt, so Steffi's title in 92 is tainted and not even real anymore and should be stripped and given to Monica. Lets face it, everyone knows Monica would have crushed Steffi in that final if she had been allowed to grunt. The 91 Wimbledon title also would have been Monica's had she not been hurt and able to play, but injuries or part of the game so Steffi deserved that one, although lucky.

No, Monica would have maybe won 1 Wimbledon and that was if she was lucky because grass wasn't her best surface and Graf was a far better grass court player. Just because she was dominating until she was stabbed you can't automatically assume she would have continued to win EVERYTHING until 1999 and to do so is just silly. She would have won more Slam titles than her nine and Graf would have won less than her 22 but that's about all one can say.

 

[Nadalbestever]

No, Monica would have maybe won 1 Wimbledon and that was if she was lucky because grass wasn't her best surface and Graf was a far better grass court player. Just because she was dominating until she was stabbed you can't automatically assume she would have continued to win EVERYTHING until 1999 and to do so is just silly. She would have won more Slam titles than her nine and Graf would have won less than her 22 but that's about all one can say.

How soon many of us forget. Back in early 1993 before the stabbing there were many predictions from such greats as Bud Collins, Fred Stolle, Mary Carillo, John McEnroe, Chris Evert, that there was a good shot Monica was on her way to being the best women tennis player of all time. Not just one of the best of all time, but the best. Yet now that this happened it is supposed to be assumed that was impossible for her all of a sudden. Even recently at the French Open last year Martina Navratilova had this quote:

"and this man single handedly affected the history of womens tennis, because who knows, y' know, they are talking greatest ever of all time, they are talking about me, they are talking about Steffi Graf, if it hadnt been for that deranged...I will refrain from using my word, we might be talking about Monica Seles as maybe being the greatest of all time....who knows. And its a shame because Monica is a great great women, and a great tennis player." So even many years lately, the great Martina Navratilova who many consider the best female player of all time herself, is saying Monica might have ended up being the best female player ever without the stabbing. Take that for what its worth.

As for the Wimbledon specific topic I understand why people assume Graf is the better grass court player. However that assumption is made on only one match they played at Wimbledon in 1992 where Monica was not allowed to grunt because of the sour graped whining from Navratilova and Tauziat during and after their losses to Monica Seles. This made her fearful of being defaulted if she didnt grunt and she wasnt able to play her game at all. So to judge her abilities on grass from that one match seem completely unfair. More specifically I look at each following Wimbledon and I dont see one Steffi Graf played well enough to beat her:

1993 Wimbledon- was getting killed by Novotna in the final 2 sets until Jana choked badly. Looked on her way to losing the last two sets 6-1.

1994 Wimbledon- lost 1st round.

1995 Wimbledon- barely beat Sanchez Vicario 7-5 in the 3rd. Monica > Sanchez even on grass.

1996 Wimbledon- choked away a 4-0 2nd set lead and barely held on to win the 2nd set over Sanchez 7-5. Again Monica > Sanchez even on grass.

1997 Wimbledon- Hingis won because Jana was injured and Graf was out. Hingis would probably have a better chance vs Monica on hard courts then grass.

1998 Wimbledon- Jana won but choked badly in the final vs Tauziat, winning since it was such a pitiful opponent. If Monica played her in the final she would have been able to take advantage of the talented Jana's typical underachieving final performance.

 

[Warriorroger]

Agreed. Although it was and still is one of the most fearsome shots ever in the women's game, the Graf forehand was very unorthodox in that she hit it late and often while completely off the ground and I agree that it put a lot of strain on her back over time. She had a decent topspin backhand but wasn't confident enough in the shot to use it regularly, preferring to rely on her very steady slice instead. If the game hadn't moved away from serve/volley tennis then Graf would have had no choice but to use the topspin backhand for passing shots and it would have developed into a more confident consistent shot, but even so her topspin backhand did win her two Wimbledon titles over Navratilova, particularly in the 1988 final.

You know a lot about Evert, but I think you know a little bit less about Steffi (IMO). Her forehand wasn't hit late, her preparation for the shot was late. Every player who's been taught tennis, knows that you have to prepare your shot, the moment your opponent hits the ball. Steffi made the swing when the ball landed in front of her, thus the whipe action. When out of postion (which only Seles and Davenport could do to her more consistently) she (because of the late swing) hit it late.

The topspin backhand. Her backhand topspin was great and it was a shot she used frequently in 1987/8, but it didn't work for her game. Her game was to hit forehands, because of the slice she got so many sitting ducks for her forehand. Ask Seles, Davenport, they hated that low slice. Because she hit so many slices, her attacking backhand, became a shot which wasn't that natural to her any more, and made her insecure about hitting it.

No one in today's game had a slice like Graf, not even Roger Federer. The shot wasn't all that defensive. It didn't have enough pace to use as a passing shot frequently, but it kept her in the rally, just waiting for the kill with her forehand. If you talk about an underestimated shot: it's her slice backhand. That is why I believe she/the same kind of player would still be succesfull today. Her game was unique against the generation she challenged (classic power against the elegance of the 70/80s), it was too good for her own generation, and it was too rare for the generation that wanted to dethrone her.

Steffi had so much trouble in the beginning with Seles, because Monica is lefthanded. (sure the power, the mental game, the angles were formidable), but a righthander who loves to run around the backhand, hates playing against lefthanders, because they attack from different angles. Just watch her match against lefty Patty Schnyder in 1998.

Going back to the original topic, If she could overtake Martina's record, she would have. all players find obstacles on their road. Martina deserves her record, because of her style off play. Same goes for Evert on clay. Graf's real heritage is her mastery on all surfaces, because her game was suited for all surfaces. No matter how great Monica Seles was, in her prime she couldn't do much damage on grass.

So no, she could not have broken Martina's record.

 

[CEvertFan]

You know a lot about Evert, but I think you know a little bit less about Steffi (IMO). Her forehand wasn't hit late, her preparation for the shot was late. Every player who's been taught tennis, knows that you have to prepare your shot, the moment your opponent hits the ball. Steffi made the swing when the ball landed in front of her, thus the whipe action. When out of postion (which only Seles and Davenport could do to her more consistently) she (because of the late swing) hit it late.

The topspin backhand. Her backhand topspin was great and it was a shot she used frequently in 1987/8, but it didn't work for her game. Her game was to hit forehands, because of the slice she got so many sitting ducks for her forehand. Ask Seles, Davenport, they hated that low slice. Because she hit so many slices, her attacking backhand, became a shot which wasn't that natural to her any more, and made her insecure about hitting it.

No one in today's game had a slice like Graf, not even Roger Federer. The shot wasn't all that defensive. It didn't have enough pace to use as a passing shot frequently, but it kept her in the rally, just waiting for the kill with her forehand. If you talk about an underestimated shot: it's her slice backhand. That is why I believe she/the same kind of player would still be succesfull today. Her game was unique against the generation she challenged (classic power against the elegance of the 70/80s), it was too good for her own generation, and it was too rare for the generation that wanted to dethrone her.

Steffi had so much trouble in the beginning with Seles, because Monica is lefthanded. (sure the power, the mental game, the angles were formidable), but a righthander who loves to run around the backhand, hates playing against lefthanders, because they attack from different angles. Just watch her match against lefty Patty Schnyder in 1998.

Going back to the original topic, If she could overtake Martina's record, she would have. all players find obstacles on their road. Martina deserves her record, because of her style off play. Same goes for Evert on clay. Graf's real heritage is her mastery on all surfaces, because her game was suited for all surfaces. No matter how great Monica Seles was, in her prime she couldn't do much damage on grass.

So no, she could not have broken Martina's record.

Graf did hit the forehand late. She often hit it off her right hip instead of hitting it out in front of her like a classic forehand would look like and yes she also prepared late as well. Commentators like Evert, Carillo, Bud Collins etc. have all commented that she hit the forehand late so if you don't take my word for it then take theirs.

Also I think I said pretty much the same thing about her backhand as you did. Bottom line is she didn't have confidence in the shot and was much more comfortable with her beloved slice so she almost never came over the backhand and she didn't need to use it against other baseliners but did need to use it against a serve/volley player like Navratilova. Also she never used her topspin backhand frequently during any part of her career and I have seen her entire career. You could pick certain matches where she was forced to hit more topspin backhands (Wimbledon final 1988 for example) but those were few and far between especially when the game moved away from serve/volley tennis and she was just playing against other baseliners.

 

[Nadalbestever]

Graf had a terrible backhand. That is one reason she was dominated by much better players like Navratilova, Evert, and Seles when they were in their primes together. Look at her matches with Navratilova and Evert in 1985, Graf was always getting spanked even though she was in her prime, showing how inferior to them she was to players like them. That is the last year Graf in her prime played Evert and Navratilova in their primes. Same with Seles dominating Graf when both were in their primes in 1991 and 1992.

 

[CEvertFan]

Graf had a terrible backhand. That is one reason she was dominated by much better players like Navratilova, Evert, and Seles when they were in their primes together. Look at her matches with Navratilova and Evert in 1985, Graf was always getting spanked even though she was in her prime, showing how inferior to them she was to players like them. That is the last year Graf in her prime played Evert and Navratilova in their primes. Same with Seles dominating Graf when both were in their primes in 1991 and 1992.

Martina and Steffi are tied at 9-9 in their rivalry so just exactly how did Martina dominate Steffi?

Wrong again.

Steffi was in her prime in 1985?!?!?! Not likely.

Troll City is calling you back home.

 

[Nadalbestever]

Martina and Steffi are tied at 9-9 in their rivalry so just exactly how did Martina dominate Steffi?

Wrong again.

Troll City is calling you back home.

How many of Graf's wins were when Martina was a 30 year old or older granny. Graf was in her prime during all of her matches with Martina since she was already 16 years old when they started playing. Martina was only in her prime for like 2 of her matches with Graf. In 1986 and 1987 Martina was now past her prime and Steffi was in hers, and Martina was still winning almost all their matches. Steffi Graf didnt start beating Martina regularly until Martina was 31 years old in 1988, and Steffi was 18. Steffi Graf even lost a match to a 34 year old Navratilova in the U.S Open semis once. What a utter humiliation.

I admit I hate Steffi Graf but I still respect her as a player and try my best to be objective in evaluating her.

 

[CEvertFan]

How many of Graf's wins were when Martina was a 30 year old or older granny. Graf was in her prime during all of her matches with Martina since she was already 16 years old when they started playing. Martina was only in her prime for like 2 of her matches with Graf. In 1986 and 1987 Martina was now past her prime and Steffi was in hers, and Martina was still winning almost all their matches. Steffi Graf didnt start beating Martina regularly until Martina was 31 years old in 1988, and Steffi was 18. Steffi Graf even lost a match to a 34 year old Navratilova in the U.S Open semis once. What a utter humiliation.

I admit I hate Steffi Graf but I still respect her as a player and try my best to be objective in evaluating her.

OMG!!!!!

I never was a big fan of Graf's either but unlike you I REALLY respected her as a player and KNOW that she is one of the all time greats. You say you respect her but you really don't.

I also love Monica Seles but she isn't greater than Navratilova or Evert or Court or Graf who are the 4 best women ever. Lenglen and Wills and Connolly are also ranked ahead of Seles.

 

[Nadalbestever]

OMG!!!!!

I never was a big fan of Graf's either but unlike you I REALLY respected her as a player and KNOW that she is one of the all time greats. You say you respect her but you really don't.

I also love Monica Seles but she isn't greater than Navratilova or Evert or Court or Graf who are the 4 best women ever. Lenglen and Wills and Connolly are also ranked ahead of Seles.

Some other facts:

-In 1986 and 1987 Chris Evert was 31 and 32 years old. Yet she still won the same # of slam titles those two years as 16-18 year old Graf, 1 each. Yeah Graf had much better success overall, but still she was only equal to a 31 and 32 year old women in the most important stat line. Weak, especialy for someone you are arguing as a top 4 player all time.

-You say Martina and Steffi are tied head to head. You neglect to mention Martina N. is 13 years older then Steffi Graf. Graf was only able to tie head to head someone 13 years her senior. Pretty weak.

-These were the people Steffi beat to win her 7 slam titles during her pre-Seles dominance in 1988 and 1989:

1988 Australian Open- 33 year old Chris Evert
1988 French Open- a then 17 year old girl who would never again make another slam final her entire career
1988 Wimbledon- 31 year old Martina Navratilova
1988 U.S Open- her longtime personal pigeon Gabriela Chokeatini
1989 Australian Open- Helena Sukova, a player who would retire with a 0-4 record in slam titles
1989 Wimbledon- 32 year old Martina Navratilova
1989 U.S Open- 32 year old Martina Navratilova

Like I said old grannies or players who were not champion calibre. How is it impressive to win 7 of 8 slams when 4 of the 7 were won against women averaging 32 years old, and the other 3 were against women with a combined 1 slam title and 1-7 record in slam finals in their careers.

The last bit of unimpressive facts on Graf. In 1987 Graf was now 17 and 18 years old. She played a 30 year old Martina Navratilova in 3 slam finals. She barely won 1 of them, and she was destroyed in the other two. What does this tell you.

 

[Warriorroger]

Some other facts:

-In 1986 and 1987 Chris Evert was 31 and 32 years old. Yet she still won the same # of slam titles those two years as 16-18 year old Graf, 1 each. Yeah Graf had much better success overall, but still she was only equal to a 31 and 32 year old women in the most important stat line. Weak, especialy for someone you are arguing as a top 4 player all time.

-You say Martina and Steffi are tied head to head. You neglect to mention Martina N. is 13 years older then Steffi Graf. Graf was only able to tie head to head someone 13 years her senior. Pretty weak.

-These were the people Steffi beat to win her 7 slam titles during her pre-Seles dominance in 1988 and 1989:

1988 Australian Open- 33 year old Chris Evert
1988 French Open- a then 17 year old girl who would never again make another slam final her entire career
1988 Wimbledon- 31 year old Martina Navratilova
1988 U.S Open- her longtime personal pigeon Gabriela Chokeatini
1989 Australian Open- Helena Sukova, a player who would retire with a 0-4 record in slam titles
1989 Wimbledon- 32 year old Martina Navratilova
1989 U.S Open- 32 year old Martina Navratilova

Like I said old grannies or players who were not champion calibre. How is it impressive to win 7 of 8 slams when 4 of the 7 were won against women averaging 32 years old, and the other 3 were against women with a combined 1 slam title and 1-7 record in slam finals in their careers.

The last bit of unimpressive facts on Graf. In 1987 Graf was now 17 and 18 years old. She played a 30 year old Martina Navratilova in 3 slam finals. She barely won 1 of them, and she was destroyed in the other two. What does this tell you.

You are my personal poster from Hell :twistedFeder and Graf overrated My two favorites ), but you get many of us desperate enough to react, so I give you applause for that. Thanks for spicing things up. But I think it's game over now, bye my friend

 

[tennis-hero]

No i do not think she would have beaten Martina's record, i do think she could have equaled it

it doesn't matter anyway

Golden slam > everything else in tennis

Steffi is the greatest

 

[anointedone]

I think she would have atleast equaled it. Nobody was going to touch her in either 1997 or 1998. Jana Novotna is the only one who had any chance, and if she ever had a chance she would choke vs Steffi Graf anyway. The question would be whether she would have won in 1999 or 2000. This would determine if she merely equaled it or broke it. 2001 would have been too late for her IMO. Too old, well past her prime, Venus and Serena really becoming dominant. So atleast 9 but maybe more.

 

[tennis-hero]

I think she would have atleast equaled it. Nobody was going to touch her in either 1997 or 1998. Jana Novotna is the only one who had any chance, and if she ever had a chance she would choke vs Steffi Graf anyway. The question would be whether she would have won in 1999 or 2000. This would determine if she merely equaled it or broke it. 2001 would have been too late for her IMO. Too old, well past her prime, Venus and Serena really becoming dominant. So atleast 9 but maybe more.

1999 we already know about, she got to the final, she had just won the FO, so she was at least playing well, and she lost

so we can't factor in 1999 (and by then she was already wanting to leave)

i don't see a declining Graf having a chance against the power era

97,98, yeah, she could have definitely won it

 

[anointedone]

1999 we already know about, she got to the final, she had just won the FO, so she was at least playing well, and she lost

so we can't factor in 1999 (and by then she was already wanting to leave)

i don't see a declining Graf having a chance against the power era

97,98, yeah, she could have definitely won it

If she hadnt gone through the injuries in 1997 and 1998 she might have been alot stronger in 1999. She also might have had a totally different attitude for that final with Davenport if she already had tied the record and was aiming to best it. Who knows. I agree she would have had a hard time as she ws on decline and the huge power hitters emerged.

Davenport played an outstanding match and gets full marks for the win though. It is a shame she never won Wimlbedon again, especialy in 2004 and 2005 when she really could have/should have.

I know there are alot of Graf-Seles debate threads already on here but one thing I do feel is a prime Graf would have matched up much better vs Venus, Serena, and Lindsay then a prime Monica. In the early 90s Monica's dominance was aided by the fact that Sanchez Vicario, Sabatini (atleast for a couple years), Novotna (before her Graf-itis disease), even old Navratilova were worse matchups for Steffi then Monica. Of course Steffi still usually beat all those, but each combined their occasional wins to collectively take her out quite often before finals. I think Seles matches up better vs quality serve/volley players or exceptional counterpunchers then Graf. However I think Graf matches up much better vs the pure power baseliners then Seles would. Even in the early 90s Seles seemed to have alot more problems with Capriati, the closest apart from Seles and Graf to the big babe brigade, then Graf ever had with Capriati. Despite being able to battle her way to victories in a couple of big matches as part her early 90s dominance Seles also had much more problems with the power serving and power forehands Graf herself then she did with any of the other top players at the time.

More to the point if Seles is being overpowered she becomes almost useless given the strengths her game is built around. With how her game is constructed it no longer works for her or allow her to be truly effective if she isnt dictating the points. That is why Graf first and Capriati second were her toughest opponents by far in the early 90s, since they were the only ones who challenged her overall power and gave her any trouble dictating play consistently, especialy Graf. Then that is definitely why she looked so bad vs Davenport, Venus, and Serena at times, players who not only challenged but clearly eclipsed her power, in addition to that she was past her peak of course. All of Seles's strengths, her own power of course, her shotmaking ability, her incredible ability to hit angles and pinpoint accuracy when timing the ball on or inside the baseline,
her incredible consistency at playing this extremely precise yet powerful baseline game, all go out the window when she is being dictated by an even bigger hitter. The difference with Graf is she can defend really well also (which too of course would have to do vs that trio especialy), and can keep herself in points until she gets openings to go for winners herself vs these women. Seles cant do that. Plus against these women it is important to keep up with their serving and Graf can much better then Seles can. If the other top players surrounding Graf and Seles in the early 90s were Venus, Serena, and Lindsay instead of ASV, Navratilova, Novotna, and Sabatini I think you would have seen a totally different situation regarding Graf vs Seles overall.

 

[Warriorroger]

If she hadnt gone through the injuries in 1997 and 1998 she might have been alot stronger in 1999. She also might have had a totally different attitude for that final with Davenport if she already had tied the record and was aiming to best it. Who knows. I agree she would have had a hard time as she ws on decline and the huge power hitters emerged.

Davenport played an outstanding match and gets full marks for the win though. It is a shame she never won Wimlbedon again, especialy in 2004 and 2005 when she really could have/should have.

I know there are alot of Graf-Seles debate threads already on here but one thing I do feel is a prime Graf would have matched up much better vs Venus, Serena, and Lindsay then a prime Monica. In the early 90s Monica's dominance was aided by the fact that Sanchez Vicario, Sabatini (atleast for a couple years), Novotna (before her Graf-itis disease), even old Navratilova were worse matchups for Steffi then Monica. Of course Steffi still usually beat all those, but each combined their occasional wins to collectively take her out quite often before finals. I think Seles matches up better vs quality serve/volley players or exceptional counterpunchers then Graf. However I think Graf matches up much better vs the pure power baseliners then Seles would. Even in the early 90s Seles seemed to have alot more problems with Capriati, the closest apart from Seles and Graf to the big babe brigade, then Graf ever had with Capriati. Despite being able to battle her way to victories in a couple of big matches as part her early 90s dominance Seles also had much more problems with the power serving and power forehands Graf herself then she did with any of the other top players at the time.

More to the point if Seles is being overpowered she becomes almost useless given the strengths her game is built around. With how her game is constructed it no longer works for her or allow her to be truly effective if she isnt dictating the points. That is why Graf first and Capriati second were her toughest opponents by far in the early 90s, since they were the only ones who challenged her overall power and gave her any trouble dictating play consistently, especialy Graf. Then that is definitely why she looked so bad vs Davenport, Venus, and Serena at times, players who not only challenged but clearly eclipsed her power, in addition to that she was past her peak of course. All of Seles's strengths, her own power of course, her shotmaking ability, her incredible ability to hit angles and pinpoint accuracy when timing the ball on or inside the baseline,
her incredible consistency at playing this extremely precise yet powerful baseline game, all go out the window when she is being dictated by an even bigger hitter. The difference with Graf is she can defend really well also (which too of course would have to do vs that trio especialy), and can keep herself in points until she gets openings to go for winners herself vs these women. Seles cant do that. Plus against these women it is important to keep up with their serving and Graf can much better then Seles can. If the other top players surrounding Graf and Seles in the early 90s were Venus, Serena, and Lindsay instead of ASV, Navratilova, Novotna, and Sabatini I think you would have seen a totally different situation regarding Graf vs Seles overall.

Very good and intelligent tennis post. Because Graf was so fast and had that dangerous slice backhand (which can neutralize the power of the opponent's shot), she would fare well against today's player, plus the combination of her own shotmaking power. It was against the true ball artists (The S&V players, the all court players) her game could be in danger. Seles would just smack the ball against that type of player with tremendous succes.

 

[rolandg]

If she hadnt gone through the injuries in 1997 and 1998 she might have been alot stronger in 1999. She also might have had a totally different attitude for that final with Davenport if she already had tied the record and was aiming to best it. Who knows. I agree she would have had a hard time as she ws on decline and the huge power hitters emerged.

Davenport played an outstanding match and gets full marks for the win though. It is a shame she never won Wimlbedon again, especialy in 2004 and 2005 when she really could have/should have.

I know there are alot of Graf-Seles debate threads already on here but one thing I do feel is a prime Graf would have matched up much better vs Venus, Serena, and Lindsay then a prime Monica. In the early 90s Monica's dominance was aided by the fact that Sanchez Vicario, Sabatini (atleast for a couple years), Novotna (before her Graf-itis disease), even old Navratilova were worse matchups for Steffi then Monica. Of course Steffi still usually beat all those, but each combined their occasional wins to collectively take her out quite often before finals. I think Seles matches up better vs quality serve/volley players or exceptional counterpunchers then Graf. However I think Graf matches up much better vs the pure power baseliners then Seles would. Even in the early 90s Seles seemed to have alot more problems with Capriati, the closest apart from Seles and Graf to the big babe brigade, then Graf ever had with Capriati. Despite being able to battle her way to victories in a couple of big matches as part her early 90s dominance Seles also had much more problems with the power serving and power forehands Graf herself then she did with any of the other top players at the time.

More to the point if Seles is being overpowered she becomes almost useless given the strengths her game is built around. With how her game is constructed it no longer works for her or allow her to be truly effective if she isnt dictating the points. That is why Graf first and Capriati second were her toughest opponents by far in the early 90s, since they were the only ones who challenged her overall power and gave her any trouble dictating play consistently, especialy Graf. Then that is definitely why she looked so bad vs Davenport, Venus, and Serena at times, players who not only challenged but clearly eclipsed her power, in addition to that she was past her peak of course. All of Seles's strengths, her own power of course, her shotmaking ability, her incredible ability to hit angles and pinpoint accuracy when timing the ball on or inside the baseline,
her incredible consistency at playing this extremely precise yet powerful baseline game, all go out the window when she is being dictated by an even bigger hitter. The difference with Graf is she can defend really well also (which too of course would have to do vs that trio especialy), and can keep herself in points until she gets openings to go for winners herself vs these women. Seles cant do that. Plus against these women it is important to keep up with their serving and Graf can much better then Seles can. If the other top players surrounding Graf and Seles in the early 90s were Venus, Serena, and Lindsay instead of ASV, Navratilova, Novotna, and Sabatini I think you would have seen a totally different situation regarding Graf vs Seles overall.

I've got an interview with Seles in Hungarian where she says her toughest opponents were Navratilova, Novotna and, bizarrely, Sukova, which would imply that she felt the serve-volleyers were her toughest opponents. I would also say that Sabatini was a tougher opponent for her in the early 90's than Capriati, but Sabatini didn't have any mental toughness. There are matches where Sabatini is completely outplaying her, but then, as ever, just crumbles before she can secure the win.

 

[anointedone]

I've got an interview with Seles in Hungarian where she says her toughest opponents were Navratilova, Novotna and, bizarrely, Sukova, which would imply that she felt the serve-volleyers were her toughest opponents. I would also say that Sabatini was a tougher opponent for her in the early 90's than Capriati, but Sabatini didn't have any mental toughness. There are matches where Sabatini is completely outplaying her, but then, as ever, just crumbles before she can secure the win.

Hmmm interesting. Novotna was a tough opponent for her as well, even in the early 90s when the late blooming Jana was a contender but not as good a player as the 5-6 years after the Seles stabbing, Seles still had a very tough time beating her. Jana could have even won both their Australian Open final and their quarterfinal at the year end Championships in 1992 if she had anywhere near Seles's mental strength. Seles basically willed her way to victory from down a set and even in the second set both times. When Seles came back from the stabbing she was having a hard time even beating Novotna on clay despite even then being considered much stronger on that surface atleast, and in 96 when ranked alot higher then Jana still having trouble beating Jana in general. So Jana I definitely see.

I guess now that I think back over some of their matches Sabatini was a tough opponent for Seles as well. Of the early 90s players Seles's easiest opponents of the top women were definitely Sanchez Vicario and Mary Joe Fernandez. Graf was the toughest but there would be obvious reasons for that beyond game style. Sabatini and Novotna maybe were the next two toughest for her, then Navratilova and Capriati.

I am still amazed she would ever say Sukova though:

http://www.sonyericssonwtatour.com/...asp?PlayerID=190141&x=10&y=6&Player1ID=190110

Not much history but nothing of note to suggest much trouble. Sukova was just exiting her prime as Seles was entering hers anyway, and Seles never played Sukova in her prime which makes it even more baffling (not that I would ever even expect Sukova to match up well even vs prime Seles which I wouldnt). Amazing to hear she said that. I know one player who wouldnt name Sukova as one of her toughest opponents:

http://www.sonyericssonwtatour.com/...l.asp?PlayerID=190110&x=4&y=2&Player1ID=70044

I am also amazed she didnt name players like the Williams or Davenport who even considering she was past her prime seemed to be nightmare matchups for her. Maybe she was only referring to her prime years.

 

[rolandg]

Hmmm interesting. Novotna was a tough opponent for her as well, even in the early 90s when the late blooming Jana was a contender but not as good a player as the 5-6 years after the Seles stabbing, Seles still had a very tough time beating her. Jana could have even won both their Australian Open final and their quarterfinal at the year end Championships in 1992 if she had anywhere near Seles's mental strength. Seles basically willed her way to victory from down a set and even in the second set both times. When Seles came back from the stabbing she was having a hard time even beating Novotna on clay despite even then being considered much stronger on that surface atleast, and in 96 when ranked alot higher then Jana still having trouble beating Jana in general. So Jana I definitely see.

I guess now that I think back over some of their matches Sabatini was a tough opponent for Seles as well. Of the early 90s players Seles's easiest opponents of the top women were definitely Sanchez Vicario and Mary Joe Fernandez. Graf was the toughest but there would be obvious reasons for that beyond game style. Sabatini and Novotna maybe were the next two toughest for her, then Navratilova and Capriati.

I am still amazed she would ever say Sukova though:

http://www.sonyericssonwtatour.com/...asp?PlayerID=190141&x=10&y=6&Player1ID=190110

Not much history but nothing of note to suggest much trouble. Sukova was just exiting her prime as Seles was entering hers anyway, and Seles never played Sukova in her prime which makes it even more baffling (not that I would ever even expect Sukova to match up well even vs prime Seles which I wouldnt). Amazing to hear she said that. I know one player who wouldnt name Sukova as one of her toughest opponents:

http://www.sonyericssonwtatour.com/...l.asp?PlayerID=190110&x=4&y=2&Player1ID=70044

I am also amazed she didnt name players like the Williams or Davenport who even considering she was past her prime seemed to be nightmare matchups for her. Maybe she was only referring to her prime years.

She was asked who were the toughest people to play, and she said it was the serve volleyers and (paraphrasing) "I always had such tough matches against Navatilova, Novotna and Sukova." Maybe she was just being nice though.

Even in her prime years, I would say Nav was her toughest opponent, even more than Graf. I would also agree that Nav was a tougher opponent for Graf than Seles, but in the recent Tennis mag interview, Graf said Seles was by far her toughest opponent, so who knows?

 

[grafrules]

Even in her prime years, I would say Nav was her toughest opponent, even more than Graf. I would also agree that Nav was a tougher opponent for Graf than Seles, but in the recent Tennis mag interview, Graf said Seles was by far her toughest opponent, so who knows?

Sorry but I had to laugh out loud at your assertion even an aging Navratilova (which is what she clearly was by the early 90s, lets face it) was Seles's toughest opponent in her prime over Graf. Unless you meant speculation if Martina were in her prime, then I could see a valid argument. Otherwise unreal. There is no way at all an aging Navratilova was a tougher opponent for prime Seles then Graf was. Navratilova never beat Seles in a major match in the early 90s in 4 attempts, and she was just creamed in 2 of their major matches which she never did to Graf. That was with the benefit of all 4 of those matches being on a surface that favored Martina. Graf always atleast took Seles to 3 hard sets when they played a major match, and slammed her brutally at that same Wimbledon where Martina gave her their only really close match in a major meeting. Graf had to play 3 of her 4 major matches with Seles on surfaces that favored Seles to boot. Seles never once destroyed Graf in a match, and often destroyed an aging Navratilova in matches.

Seles toughest opponents in the early 90s would rank:

1. Graf
------huge gap------
2. Sabatini
3. Novotna (hard to tell though since they didnt play much)
4. Capriati
5. Navratilova

These are the meetings of Seles vs Navratilova and Graf from April 1990- April 1993:

vs Navratilova

1990 ITALIAN OPEN CLAY F M. SELES defeats M. NAVRATILOVA 6-1 6-1
1990 VS OF LOS ANGELES HARD F M. SELES defeats M. NAVRATILOVA 6-4 3-6 7-6(6)
1990 VS OF CALIFORNIA CARPET (I) F M. SELES defeats M. NAVRATILOVA 6-3 7-6(5)
1991 VS OF PALM SPRING HARD (O) F M. NAVRATILOVA defeats M. SELES 6-2 7-6(6)
1991 US OPEN HARD (O) F M. SELES defeats M. NAVRATILOVA 7-6(1) 6-1
1991 MILANO CARPET (I) F M. SELES defeats M. NAVRATILOVA 6-3 3-6 6-4
1991 VS OF CALIFORNIA CARPET (I) F M. NAVRATILOVA defeats M. SELES 6-3 3-6 6-3
1991 VS CHAMPIONSHIPS CARPET (I) F M. SELES defeats M. NAVRATILOVA 6-4 3-6 7-5 6-0
1992 WIMBLEDON GRASS (O) S M. SELES 6-2 6-7(3) 6-4
1992 VS OF LOS ANGELES HARD (O) F M. NAVRATILOVA 6-4 6-2
1992 OAKLAND CARPET (I) F M. SELES defeats M. NAVRATILOVA 6-3 6-4
1992 VS CHAMPIONSHIPS CARPET (I) F M. SELES defeats M. NAVRATILOVA 7-5 6-3 6-1
1993 VS OF CHICAGO CARPET (I) F M. SELES defeats M. NAVRATILOVA 3-6 6-2 6-1
1993 PARIS CARPET (I) F M. NAVRATILOVA defeats M. SELES 6-3 4-6 7-6(3)

vs Graf

1990 BERLIN-GERMAN OPEN CLAY (O) F M. SELES defeats S. GRAF 6-4 6-3
1990 FRENCH OPEN CLAY (O) F M. SELES defeats S. GRAF 7-6(6) 6-4
1991 US HARDCOURTS HARD (O) F S. GRAF defeats M. SELES 6-4 6-3
1991 CITIZEN CUP CLAY (O) F S. GRAF defeats M. SELES 7-5 6-7(4) 6-3
1992 FRENCH OPEN CLAY (O) F M. SELES defeats S. GRAF 6-2 3-6 10-8
1992 WIMBLEDON GRASS (O) F S. GRAF defeats M. SELES 6-2 6-1
1993 AUSTRALIAN OPEN HARD (O) F M. SELES defeats S. GRAF 4-6 6-3 6-2


Like I said no comparision. You would never see Seles beating Graf at Wimbledon like she did an aging Navratilova, nor beating Graf 6-1, 6-1 in the Rome final like she did an aging Navratilova, nor beating Graf so easily in the U.S Open and WTA championships finals when she couldnt even beat her nearly that easily at the French Open. You are also comparing 4-3 to 10-4. I doubt an aging Navratilova was even Seles's second toughest opponent of this period. Sabatini and even Capriati did better vs her in general and on average then Martina did, especialy Sabatini. That is not a slight on Martina, the women was in her mid 30s, to even be remotedly competitive with Graf or Seles was an amazing feat on her part. However she was certainly not Seles's toughest opponent by this point in time.

As for comments by one of them it is well known Martina N. and Seles are very close friends, and it just as well known neither are friendly with Graf, especialy Monica. So that explains her end of the comments.

As for Graf's comments, Navratilova was past her prime by 1988 when Graf entered her prime, so of course Martina would probably seem less difficult to her then Seles. When she was playing prime Martina in 85-86 she was a little kid who was still developing strength and maturity, so probably in her own mind thinks it wouldnt have been that difficult if she were a bit older, which doesnt mean it is true. It just natural to appreciate more fully how difficult someone you played when you were both in your primes is.

All 3 are great players, but I doubt either Graf or Seles are at all qualified to accurately guage whether each other or Martina would be their tougher opponent in their mutual primes. Neither ever played Martina in their primes to know or compare really, except for a kiddy version of Graf playing prime Martina for a bit.

 

[rolandg]

Sorry but I had to laugh out loud at your assertion even an aging Navratilova (which is what she clearly was by the early 90s, lets face it) was Seles's toughest opponent in her prime over Graf. Unless you meant speculation if Martina were in her prime, then I could see a valid argument. Otherwise unreal. There is no way at all an aging Navratilova was a tougher opponent for prime Seles then Graf was. Navratilova never beat Seles in a major match in the early 90s in 4 attempts, and she was just creamed in 2 of their major matches which she never did to Graf. That was with the benefit of all 4 of those matches being on a surface that favored Martina. Graf always atleast took Seles to 3 hard sets when they played a major match, and slammed her brutally at that same Wimbledon where Martina gave her their only really close match in a major meeting. Graf had to play 3 of her 4 major matches with Seles on surfaces that favored Seles to boot. Seles never once destroyed Graf in a match, and often destroyed an aging Navratilova in matches.

Seles toughest opponents in the early 90s would rank:

1. Graf
------huge gap------
2. Sabatini
3. Novotna (hard to tell though since they didnt play much)
4. Capriati
5. Navratilova

These are the meetings of Seles vs Navratilova and Graf from April 1990- April 1993:

vs Navratilova

1990 ITALIAN OPEN CLAY F M. SELES defeats M. NAVRATILOVA 6-1 6-1
1990 VS OF LOS ANGELES HARD F M. SELES defeats M. NAVRATILOVA 6-4 3-6 7-6(6)
1990 VS OF CALIFORNIA CARPET (I) F M. SELES defeats M. NAVRATILOVA 6-3 7-6(5)
1991 VS OF PALM SPRING HARD (O) F M. NAVRATILOVA defeats M. SELES 6-2 7-6(6)
1991 US OPEN HARD (O) F M. SELES defeats M. NAVRATILOVA 7-6(1) 6-1
1991 MILANO CARPET (I) F M. SELES defeats M. NAVRATILOVA 6-3 3-6 6-4
1991 VS OF CALIFORNIA CARPET (I) F M. NAVRATILOVA defeats M. SELES 6-3 3-6 6-3
1991 VS CHAMPIONSHIPS CARPET (I) F M. SELES defeats M. NAVRATILOVA 6-4 3-6 7-5 6-0
1992 WIMBLEDON GRASS (O) S M. SELES 6-2 6-7(3) 6-4
1992 VS OF LOS ANGELES HARD (O) F M. NAVRATILOVA 6-4 6-2
1992 OAKLAND CARPET (I) F M. SELES defeats M. NAVRATILOVA 6-3 6-4
1992 VS CHAMPIONSHIPS CARPET (I) F M. SELES defeats M. NAVRATILOVA 7-5 6-3 6-1
1993 VS OF CHICAGO CARPET (I) F M. SELES defeats M. NAVRATILOVA 3-6 6-2 6-1
1993 PARIS CARPET (I) F M. NAVRATILOVA defeats M. SELES 6-3 4-6 7-6(3)

vs Graf

1990 BERLIN-GERMAN OPEN CLAY (O) F M. SELES defeats S. GRAF 6-4 6-3
1990 FRENCH OPEN CLAY (O) F M. SELES defeats S. GRAF 7-6(6) 6-4
1991 US HARDCOURTS HARD (O) F S. GRAF defeats M. SELES 6-4 6-3
1991 CITIZEN CUP CLAY (O) F S. GRAF defeats M. SELES 7-5 6-7(4) 6-3
1992 FRENCH OPEN CLAY (O) F M. SELES defeats S. GRAF 6-2 3-6 10-8
1992 WIMBLEDON GRASS (O) F S. GRAF defeats M. SELES 6-2 6-1
1993 AUSTRALIAN OPEN HARD (O) F M. SELES defeats S. GRAF 4-6 6-3 6-2


Like I said no comparision. You would never see Seles beating Graf at Wimbledon like she did an aging Navratilova, nor beating Graf 6-1, 6-1 in the Rome final like she did an aging Navratilova, nor beating Graf so easily in the U.S Open and WTA championships finals when she couldnt even beat her nearly that easily at the French Open. You are also comparing 4-3 to 10-4. I doubt an aging Navratilova was even Seles's second toughest opponent of this period. Sabatini and even Capriati did better vs her in general and on average then Martina did, especialy Sabatini. That is not a slight on Martina, the women was in her mid 30s, to even be remotedly competitive with Graf or Seles was an amazing feat on her part. However she was certainly not Seles's toughest opponent by this point in time.

As for comments by one of them it is well known Martina N. and Seles are very close friends, and it just as well known neither are friendly with Graf, especialy Monica. So that explains her end of the comments.

As for Graf's comments, Navratilova was past her prime by 1988 when Graf entered her prime, so of course Martina would probably seem less difficult to her then Seles. When she was playing prime Martina in 85-86 she was a little kid who was still developing strength and maturity, so probably in her own mind thinks it wouldnt have been that difficult if she were a bit older, which doesnt mean it is true. It just natural to appreciate more fully how difficult someone you played when you were both in your primes is.

All 3 are great players, but I doubt either Graf or Seles are at all qualified to accurately guage whether each other or Martina would be their tougher opponent in their mutual primes. Neither ever played Martina in their primes to know or compare really, except for a kiddy version of Graf playing prime Martina for a bit.

No, i'd say Nav was a tougher opponent in the early 90's. A serve volleyer will always push a baseliner more than another baseliner. Just my opinion. Either way, I would say Graf and Nav were her two toughest opponents, much more than Sabatini et al.

 

[grafrules]

No, i'd say Nav was a tougher opponent in the early 90's. A serve volleyer will always push a baseliner more than another baseliner. Just my opinion. Either way, I would say Graf and Nav were her two toughest opponents, much more than Sabatini et al.

Yes she was a tougher opponent during that time and that is why she was doing alot worse vs Seles and was so much easier for Seles to beat. OK I get it, I am not going to argue anymore.

By your logic I guess Nathalie Tauziat was a tougher opponent for both Graf and Seles then each other. After all she was a serve volleyer and all it comes down to is "a serve volleyer will always push a baseliner more then another baseliner."

For the record I dont think Seles would have even made the 92 Wimbledon final if she and Graf switched halves, and she had to play 1 of Sabatini or Capriati. Yeah I know she beat them on other surfaces but on grass they would have won out. An aging Navratilova is just such a good matchup for Monica, that even on grass she was able to pull through.

 

[rolandg]

Yes she was a tougher opponent during that time and that is why she was doing alot worse vs Seles and was so much easier for Seles to beat. OK I get it, I am not going to argue anymore.

By your logic I guess Nathalie Tauziat was a tougher opponent for both Graf and Seles then each other. After all she was a serve volleyer and all it comes down to is "a serve volleyer will always push a baseliner more then another baseliner."

For the record I dont think Seles would have even made the 92 Wimbledon final if she and Graf switched halves, and she had to play 1 of Sabatini or Capriati. Yeah I know she beat them on other surfaces but on grass they would have won out. An aging Navratilova is just such a good matchup for Monica, that even on grass she was able to pull through.

What? Nav gave Seles tough matches at the YEC in 1991, and to a lesser extent 1992, that were on a par with anything Graf did in their slam matches (like you have, I make a difference between slam/ YEC and non-slam matches). The 1991 US final was as tough for Seles as the 90 French. French 1992 was close, but Graf was nervy and Seles was ill, so i'm not sure how much you can take from it. Australia 1993 wasn't any tougher than YEC 1991/1992. Graf easily beat Seles at Wimbledon, but, as you say, Seles wasn't all that good on grass and was lucky with the draw. God knows what happened to Nav in that match, it was hers to lose and she lost it. So, I really do think Nav was the toughest player Seles had to beat. Graf would be a close second, followed by Sabatini/ Novotna, then Capriati/ Sanchez. Just my opinion though. It's fine if others disagree. Not that big a deal.

 

[grafrules]

What? Nav gave Seles as tough a match in the YEC in 1991, and to a lesser extent 1992, that was on a par with anything Graf did in their slam matches (like you have, I make a difference between slam/ YEC and non-slam matches).

Now you are really making me laugh. The 1991 YEC final between Navratilova and Seles went 4 sets in a best 3 out of 5, and the 4th set was a bagel. On par with anything Graf did in her slam matches with Seles?!? Graf of course destroyed Seles in the Wimbledon final in 6-2, 6-1 which needless to say is doing better then not even reaching the final set of a match, and losing that set in a bagel. Apart from that match, Graf also took Seles to 10-8 in the 3rd set of the French Open final as well, and Seles had to serve 3 times to stay in the match. Again kind of doing a bit better then losing a 4th set of a best 3-of-5 match with a bagel. Yet Martina's bagel in the 4th set loss in the 1991 YES final was on par with anything Graf did in her slam matches with Seles. Ummm No, no, and no.

Like I said this isnt a slight on Martina since it is amazing she was even remotedly competitive with Graf and Seles at that age.

The 1991 US final was as tough for Seles as the 90 French.

Graf choked away 4 straight set points in the 1st set of the 1990 French Open final, was up 6-2 in the tiebreak at one point before Seles won it 8-6 on a double fault by Graf. Graf also had a break point at 4-4 in the 2nd set she missed, and Seles broke in the final game to win the set 6-4.

In the 1991 U.S Open final the first set went to a tiebreak and Seles cruised to an easy win in that tiebreak. The second set was 6-1.

Ummm, what am I missing here?

French 1992 was close, but Graf was nervy and Seles was ill, so i'm not sure how much you can take from it.

You can take from it that Graf gave Seles a very hard time in that match, which she always did even on the slow surfaces that favored Seles. Something the aging Navratilova wasnt even able to do vs Seles on faster surfaces which favored either Graf or Navratilova vs Seles.

Australia 1993 wasn't any tougher than YEC 1992.

Again where you are coming from I have no idea. The 1992 YEC was a best 3-of-5 and Seles won in straight sets. The 1993 AO final was a best 2-of-3 and Seles on in 3 sets. In a longer match Navratilova couldnt even get a set, yet it was just as tough a match how exactly?

Graf easily beat Seles at Wimbledon, but, as you say, Seles wasn't all that good on grass and was lucky with the draw. God knows what happened to Nav in that match, it was hers to lose and she lost it.

Yeah Seles wasnt all that good on grass and she still was able to beat Martina on that. Isnt that strange considering Martina is supposed to be her "toughest opponent" during this time, especialy when she would get crushed the very next round by only her second toughest opponent at the time.

Martina lost the match? That is conjecture. Seeing the match it looked to me like Monica was able to hit enough good passing shots and returned too well for an aging Martina who had lost lots of speed, serving power, and reflexes compared to her prime, even on grass. I am beggining to think much of this stems from that you overestimate how good Martina still was at this point. Martina lost to then 15 year old Capriati at the previous years Wimbledon in straight sets, and lost to Linda Harvey-Wild at Eastbourne just before Wimbledon. Thus it seems not surprising she would lose to Seles on grass, even as unexcellent as Seles was on the surface.

So, I really do think Nav was the toughest player Seles had to beat. Graf would be a close second, followed by Sabatini/ Novotna, then Capriati/ Sanchez. Just my opinion though. It's fine if others disagree. Not that big a deal.

Think what you want. Just know that none if it makes sense and that you are wrong.

 

[rolandg]

Now you are really making me laugh. The 1991 YEC final between Navratilova and Seles went 4 sets in a best 3 out of 5, and the 4th set was a bagel. On par with anything Graf did in her slam matches with Seles?!? Graf of course destroyed Seles in the Wimbledon final in 6-2, 6-1 which needless to say is doing better then not even reaching the final set of a match, and losing that set in a bagel. Apart from that match, Graf also took Seles to 10-8 in the 3rd set of the French Open final as well, and Seles had to serve 3 times to stay in the match. Again kind of doing a bit better then losing a 4th set of a best 3-of-5 match with a bagel. Yet Martina's bagel in the 4th set loss in the 1991 YES final was on par with anything Graf did in her slam matches with Seles. Ummm No, no, and no.

Like I said this isnt a slight on Martina since it is amazing she was even remotedly competitive with Graf and Seles at that age.



Graf choked away 4 straight set points in the 1st set of the 1990 French Open final, was up 6-2 in the tiebreak at one point before Seles won it 8-6 on a double fault by Graf. Graf also had a break point at 4-4 in the 2nd set she missed, and Seles broke in the final game to win the set 6-4.

In the 1991 U.S Open final the first set went to a tiebreak and Seles cruised to an easy win in that tiebreak. The second set was 6-1.

Ummm, what am I missing here?



You can take from it that Graf gave Seles a very hard time in that match, which she always did even on the slow surfaces that favored Seles. Something the aging Navratilova wasnt even able to do vs Seles on faster surfaces which favored either Graf or Navratilova vs Seles.



Again where you are coming from I have no idea. The 1992 YEC was a best 3-of-5 and Seles won in straight sets. The 1993 AO final was a best 2-of-3 and Seles on in 3 sets. In a longer match Navratilova couldnt even get a set, yet it was just as tough a match how exactly?



Yeah Seles wasnt all that good on grass and she still was able to beat Martina on that. Isnt that strange considering Martina is supposed to be her "toughest opponent" during this time, especialy when she would get crushed the very next round by only her second toughest opponent at the time.

Martina lost the match? That is conjecture. Seeing the match it looked to me like Monica was able to hit enough good passing shots and returned too well for an aging Martina who had lost a couple steps vs her prime in the end, even on grass.



Think what you want. Just know that none if it makes sense and that you are wrong.

Christ, lighten up. That response came across as a bit obsessive.

 

[grafrules]

Christ, lighten up. That response came across as a bit obsessive.

and you come across as comical. I thank you for the good laughs but I am off now. Have a good day and thanks so much for the entertainment you provided.

 

[rolandg]

and you come across as comical. I thank you for the good laughs but I am off now. Have a good day and thanks so much for the entertainment you provided.

Ah, sorry, didn't mean to offend you. I just don't get it when people get so worked up about tennis. Relax

 

[CEvertFan]

Ah, sorry, didn't mean to offend you. I just don't get it when people get so worked up about tennis. Relax

People get worked up over their favorite sports.

It's no different than a fanatical soccer (football) fan or a hockey fan or an American football fan or a baseball fan etc., those who love their favorite sport are passionate about them. It goes with the territory. No offense intended, but you must not love tennis all that much.

 

[CEvertFan]

As for who was a tougher opponent for Seles in the early 90s the answer would be Graf. Navratilova was becoming too inconsistent because of age but even so she did give Seles some battles and also beat her in the early 90s but she was no longer in her prime and it did show in some of their matches, like the 92 Wimbledon semi and the 91 US Open final. The thing with Martina is that her nerves got worse as she got older and really affected her play in some big matches.

 

[rolandg]

People get worked up over their favorite sports.

It's no different than a fanatical soccer (football) fan or a hockey fan or an American football fan or a baseball fan etc., those who love their favorite sport are passionate about them. It goes with the territory. No offense intended, but you must not love tennis all that much.

I love watching tennis, and have my favourites (Seles, Edberg, Rafter, Sabatini) but don't understand how people can get that passionate about it. No matter how involved I get in a match, I can never forget that it is just a game, and games are just a bit of fun.

 

[navratilovafan]

Graf was Seles's toughest opponent by far in the early 90s. No brainer and I am a diehard Martina fan. Grafrules broke it down pretty well and I have nothing more to add. I cant fathom what causes anyone to think Martina was a tougher opponent for Seles then Graf at that point in time. Graf was really the only one capable of taking Seles out at a slam, other then Sabatini having a shot at the French and Wimbledon as well. Second toughest for Seles during that time was definitely Sabatini. Martina could be argued as 3rd toughest for Seles vs Capriati or Novotna. Like grafrules said she was 34-35 years old then, so amazing for Martina to even be that high among Seles's biggest threats. Sanchez, Mary Joe Fernandez, Manuela Maleeva, and Conchita Martinez were Seles's easiest opponents of the top players then.
Just not the right game style for Monica, although ASV and MJ at times still gave her a bit to sweat over but rarely. ASV was clearly considered in the top 5 atleast, and over both Capriati and Novotna back then so it just shows how important game styles and matchups can be.

Regarding Jana now, Novotna did very well vs Seles after the stabbing when Novotna had improved alot more and Monica of course had weakened following her tragedy. Back in the early 90s she was very tough for Seles for someone barely in the top 10 then. I think in her case it was because she missed it up, baseline and net attacks, and that bothered Monica since it didnt let her get into a rythym and she didnt know whether she could feel comfortable in a baseline rythym or she was going to be attacked at the net soon.
Plus so much of the game for Jana is mental, since she always had the game. Jana seemed spooked by Graf once that Wimbledon choke occured. Before then she played her pretty well, after that
it was never a contest. Unfortunately for Monica, Jana never seemed psyched out by Seles presence, and other then her nerves and inconsistenchy which she shows some of vs any opponent she played to her potential vs Monica moreso then some other top players.

 

[boredone3456]

As for who was a tougher opponent for Seles in the early 90s the answer would be Graf. Navratilova was becoming too inconsistent because of age but even so she did give Seles some battles and also beat her in the early 90s but she was no longer in her prime and it did show in some of their matches, like the 92 Wimbledon semi and the 91 US Open final. The thing with Martina is that her nerves got worse as she got older and really affected her play in some big matches.

Graf was her toughest opponent, but the head to head between Seles and Navratilova was pretty close throughout the years at 10-7 in favor of Seles, which suggests she was a pretty tough matchup for Seles also, even in the 90's as she did pull off some good wins.

Sabatini was not a tough opponent for Seles at all, as Seles pretty much dominated her....athough Sabatini did give Graf all kinds of grief in the early 90's. I would Rate Seles chief problems from 90-93 as follows

1. Graf
2. Navratilova
3. Capriati ( they had a number of close battles...that Us Open Semi probably still gives Jennifer Nightmares)
4 5 and 6 are pretty interchangable with Sabatini, Novotna and Vicario...depending on he surface in question.

but thats a subjective list based on opinion...as a lot of this is.

 

[AustraliA]

I for one never take threads started by people with their favourite player in there user name, about their favourite player serious. Period...

 

[Warriorroger]

I for one never take threads started by people with their favourite player in there user name, about their favourite player serious. Period...

My real name is Roger, I am Roger from 1971, he is roger from 1981, I got the brand sooner.

 

[navratilovafan]

Graf was her toughest opponent, but the head to head between Seles and Navratilova was pretty close throughout the years at 10-7 in favor of Seles, which suggests she was a pretty tough matchup for Seles also, even in the 90's as she did pull off some good wins.

Sabatini was not a tough opponent for Seles at all, as Seles pretty much dominated her....athough Sabatini did give Graf all kinds of grief in the early 90's. I would Rate Seles chief problems from 90-93 as follows

1. Graf
2. Navratilova
3. Capriati ( they had a number of close battles...that Us Open Semi probably still gives Jennifer Nightmares)
4 5 and 6 are pretty interchangable with Sabatini, Novotna and Vicario...depending on he surface in question.

but thats a subjective list based on opinion...as a lot of this is.

I respectfully still have to disagree on your thinking Martina was Monica's second toughest opponent in the early 90s, and I am one of the biggest Martina fans out there.

Regarding Sabatini remember the 1990 year end Championships which went 5 sets, closer then any Martina-Seles match at that event. Remember the 1992 French Open semis, closer then Martina has ever come to beating Seles in a grand slam, in fact Sabatini totally should have won that match. Remember the Rome finals of 1991 and 1992 where Sabatini killed Monica in straight sets, especialy the first one.

Regarding Capriati, Seles has lost to her at Miami which is the unofficial 5th slam, nearly lost to her at that U.S Open match they played, and always had a tough time with her in every match, except for the two times they played on clay which was Jen's worst surface by far back then.

My order would be:

1. Graf
2. Sabatini
3. Capriati
4. Navratilova
5. Novotna- didnt play enough to really know, so I am not giving her much benefit of doubt as 2 matches is not really enough
6. Sanchez

 

[grafrules]

Graf had a terrible backhand. That is one reason she was dominated by much better players like Navratilova, Evert, and Seles when they were in their primes together. Look at her matches with Navratilova and Evert in 1985, Graf was always getting spanked even though she was in her prime, showing how inferior to them she was to players like them. That is the last year Graf in her prime played Evert and Navratilova in their primes. Same with Seles dominating Graf when both were in their primes in 1991 and 1992.

Yes Graf was in her prime in 1985 when she was only 15 years old. I guess according to you Seles was in her prime in 1989 too then. You dont have half a clue I am sorry to say.

 

[orangettecoleman]

i would have broken graf's singles record if i was female and could play tennis very well. i also could destroy buildings with my bare hands if i was 500 feet tall.

 

[julesb]

She would have tied it with 9. This poll is dumb since there is no option for tieing it, only break or not break.