Would Graf have broken Navratilova's Wimbledon singles record without being injured?

Graf would break Navratilovas Wimbledon singles record without being injured after 96


  • Total voters
    67

grafrules

Banned
I think Graf would have broken Navratilova's record of 9 Wimbledons if she had not gotten injured from 1997 to the rest of her career. She would have won the 1997, 1998, and 1999 Wimbledons without the injuries which would have made 10 Wimbledons for her and breaking Navratilova with 9. What do you think?
 

gj011

Banned
These silly Graff polls are getting ridiculous.

How about "Would Seles win more grand slams than Graf is she was not stabbed". Obviously YES.

or

"How much slams would Graf win altogether if Seles was not stabbed:
11, 12, 13 or 14"
 

grafrules

Banned
These silly Graff polls are getting ridiculous.

How about "Would Seles win more grand slams than Graf is she was not stabbed". Obviously YES.

or

"How much slams would Graf win altogether if Seles was not stabbed:
11, 12, 13 or 14"

Seles could never beat Graf at Wimbledon so the Seles stabbing would have nothing to do with this thread anyway. The question if Graf wins 3 more Wimbledons to break the record without her injuries, and since Seles could not have beaten her at Wimbledon she is not part of this conversation.
 

gj011

Banned
and since Seles could not have beaten her at Wimbledon

You never know. Nadal almost beat Federer this year there. The point is that Seles was denied the opportunity by the Graf's fan and his dagger. That is something that cannot be forgotten every time Graf's records and carrier accomplishments are discussed.
 

grafrules

Banned
You never know. Nadal almost beat Federer this year there. The point is that Seles was denied the opportunity by the Graf's fan and his dagger. That is something that cannot be forgotten every time Graf's records and carrier accomplishments are discussed.

Nadal had never gotten embarassed by Federer on grass like Seles was by Graf when they played in the Wimbledon final. When Nadal first played Federer in a Wimbledon final he still took one set.

Since Seles has proven nothing about her chances to beat Graf on grass she does not even belong in a dicussion about Graf and Wimbledon anyway.
 

Andres

G.O.A.T.
But she WAS injured. The record is still Navratilova's.
Would she have broken it? We don't know. We don't care.

We're not interested in IFs and BUTs
 

vive le beau jeu !

Talk Tennis Guru
¿ What If ?

But she WAS injured. The record is still Navratilova's.
Would she have broken it? We don't know. We don't care.

We're not interested in IFs and BUTs
ummm but andres...... is it even forbidden to wonder if she would own the record had she been eating pete sampras' cereals at breakfast ?
9.gif

petesampras.jpg


also forbidden ?... :roll:
ok ok... i won't ask again......
 

suwanee4712

Professional
I really don't know if Steffi would've broken it. I think it would've depended upon whether or not she was motivated to break the record. Had she not been injured, there's no doubt in my mind that she would've dominated 1997 and 1998 similarly to 1995 and 1996. There was simply no other player near enough to Steffi's level of greatness that could stop her.

Hingis was a very smart and tactically good player, but I think her place in the game is somewhat inflated. She more or less filled a gap between a healthy Steffi and the maturation of the Williams sisters. I don't see her beating Steffi at Wimbledon. In fact, I think it's highly likely that neither Hingis nor Novotna would've won Wimbledon vs. a healthy Graf. Though Novotna would have a chance with her style of play. But that's just my meaningless opinion.
 

grafrules

Banned
I really don't know if Steffi would've broken it. I think it would've depended upon whether or not she was motivated to break the record.

For sure she would be motivated for such a big record. If she did not break it would mean others stopped her, it would not be due to lacking motivation to break it.

Had she not been injured, there's no doubt in my mind that she would've dominated 1997 and 1998 similarly to 1995 and 1996. There was simply no other player near enough to Steffi's level of greatness that could stop her.

I agree. Seles never got back in top physical shape again. The next wave of powers hitters like Davenport and Williams girls did not really mature until 1999. Hingis is a lightweight who Graf would handle I think.

Hingis was a very smart and tactically good player, but I think her place in the game is somewhat inflated. She more or less filled a gap between a healthy Steffi and the maturation of the Williams sisters.

You are right. She is a very interesting player in alot of ways but not powerful, athletic, or mentally strong enough to stay on top. She was a filler on top between real greats like you said. Look at how she does now, you can see Justine Henin is a more powerful and athletic version of her game.

I don't see her beating Steffi at Wimbledon.

If Hingis were to have any chance vs a healthy and prime Graf it would be on slower surfaces only. Faster surfaces Graf would take her almost every time.

In fact, I think it's highly likely that neither Hingis nor Novotna would've won Wimbledon vs. a healthy Graf. Though Novotna would have a chance with her style of play. But that's just my meaningless opinion.

I dont think Novotna is mentally strong enough to win a match in a grand slam with Steffi. People know about the 93 Wimbledon debacle, but two lesser examples were the 94 U.S Open semis and 95 Wimbledon semis. In the 94 U.S Open semis she had a set point already up 5-2 in the 2nd set and lost the set. In the 1995 Wimbledon semis she was at 6-4, 4-3, break points and won only 2 games the rest of the match. She could give close matches on faster surface but even if she got in position to win the match she never would have.
 
I think Graf would have broken Navratilova's record of 9 Wimbledons if she had not gotten injured from 1997 to the rest of her career. She would have won the 1997, 1998, and 1999 Wimbledons without the injuries which would have made 10 Wimbledons for her and breaking Navratilova with 9. What do you think?
What do I think? I think your moniker (grafrules) sort of says it all and I think it suggests the idea of "what I think" as being somewhat of a moot point, don't 'cha think?
 

grafrules

Banned
What do I think? I think your moniker (grafrules) sort of says it all and I think it sort of makes the whole idea of 'what I think' somewhat of a moot point, don't 'cha think?

Not really. I am probably biased but you dont have to agree with me. Others are free to post what they think and since I probably am biased I expect alot to disagree with me.
 

grafrules

Banned
actually i want to change m vote cuz venus and serena were there...i dont think she cud have

She would not have to beat Venus or Serena at their peak anyway. 97 it was won by Hingis, 98 it was won by Novotna, 99 it was won by Davenport. The Williams did not take over Wimbledon until 2000. Venus could not even beat the injured-weakened Graf in 1999 quarters when they played so obviously would not have stopped a Graf who had stayed healthy yet. Maybe 2000 or after but it still depends mostly on if Graf was able to win the 3 years before 2000 anyway.
 

CEvertFan

Hall of Fame
Graf was no longer really injured in '99 as she already had returned from having successful surgery on her knee and wound up winning the FO over Hingis. She was mainly just past her prime by '99. One of Graf's greatest assets, other than her forehand, was her footspeed which is one of the 1st things to go once a player gets older. Plus pure power players like Davenport could really pick on her backhand side.
 

grafrules

Banned
Graf was no longer really injured in '99 as she already had returned from having successful surgery on her knee and wound up winning the FO over Hingis. She was mainly just past her prime by '99. One of Graf's greatest assets, other than her forehand, was her footspeed which is one of the 1st things to go once a player gets older. Plus pure power players like Davenport could really pick on her backhand side.

I agree she was no longer injured, however she was less of a player then she would have been by 99 because she had that period she was injured. During it she lost some speed and other things. I dont think it is age quite yet. Evert won her last slam at 31, Navratilova won her last slam at 33 although she was a later bloomer. Some less outstanding player examples are Mary Pierce reaching 2 slam finals in the same year for the first time ever at 30, and Jana Novotna winning Wimbledon and having a shot at #1 at 29.
 

Warriorroger

Hall of Fame
I agree she was no longer injured, however she was less of a player then she would have been by 99 because she had that period she was injured. During it she lost some speed and other things. I dont think it is age quite yet. Evert won her last slam at 31, Navratilova won her last slam at 33 although she was a later bloomer. Some less outstanding player examples are Mary Pierce reaching 2 slam finals in the same year for the first time ever at 30, and Jana Novotna winning Wimbledon and having a shot at #1 at 29.


Evert and Navratilova didn't play Venus and Serena like players in earlier rounds. You can't compare ages from different eras. Playes from today have a much tougher time in earlier rounds than 20 years ago. Graf and Seles also had ****ty competition in early rounds. Graf reaching the Wimbledon final says more about her mental game than her body. For the believers of Seles, she would have never won Wimbledon. Faced Graf two times, before her prime and in her prime, won only a couple of games. Louzy performance in the Wimbledon final of 1992. I would have felt cheated if I had tickets for Seles'performances on Wimbledon.
If players like Graf, Sabatini, Seles hadn't showed up, Evert would still be playing today, with a game like that you can play till you're one hundred. A lob followed by a lob: boring................................... B O R I N G.

And Navratilova's records would have been broken without the injuries.
 
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gj011

Banned
For the believers of Seles, she would have never won Wimbledon.

Also Concita Martinez would never win a Wimbledon. Oh wait she did it in 1994 while Seles was out and Graf lost in 1st round.
 

gj011

Banned
What "luck of a draw" for Seles. Her only problem in Wimbledon was Graf and she was out in 1st round.

Also if healthy and younger Graf lost in 1st round in 1994. you can't guarantee she would not have lost in 1997.
 

anointedone

Banned
Probably she would have. For 1997 Hingis would not beat her on grass, Novotna was injured in the final. For 1998 Novotna played a nervous and shaky final vs Tauziat which would not have stood up vs Graf, Hingis again no way on grass, Venus not ready, Lindsay was beaten easily by Tauziat. For 1999 probably, she beat Venus anyway as it was, the final with Lindsay was very evenly played as it was, much more then the final score of 6-4, 7-5 indicates, so probably this year too. Too bad for her, that would have been her biggest record not tainted by the Seles stabbing.
 

Warriorroger

Hall of Fame
Probably she would have. For 1997 Hingis would not beat her on grass, Novotna was injured in the final. For 1998 Novotna played a nervous and shaky final vs Tauziat which would not have stood up vs Graf, Hingis again no way on grass, Venus not ready, Lindsay was beaten easily by Tauziat. For 1999 probably, she beat Venus anyway as it was, the final with Lindsay was very evenly played as it was, much more then the final score of 6-4, 7-5 indicates, so probably this year too. Too bad for her, that would have been her biggest record not tainted by the Seles stabbing.


For some reason IMO Graf checked out on her tenniscareer before the final started. Davenport played the match of her life, showing great tennis, but not as great as Venus did during the quarters. I am someone who followed Graf's career since 1986 and that final was the first match I saw of her where it seems she did not care anymore. No pumped fist, she looked empty. Had she been healty during the 1997/8 period, who knows what she might have done at Wimbledon. But it would have been a difficult thing to do. You know what, even if she had won, it would never been enough to shut up the Graf bashers.
 

anointedone

Banned
For some reason IMO Graf checked out on her tenniscareer before the final started. Davenport played the match of her life, showing great tennis, but not as great as Venus did during the quarters. I am someone who followed Graf's career since 1986 and that final was the first match I saw of her where it seems she did not care anymore. No pumped fist, she looked empty. Had she been healty during the 1997/8 period, who knows what she might have done at Wimbledon. But it would have been a difficult thing to do. You know what, even if she had won, it would never been enough to shut up the Graf bashers.

Maybe it was her romance to Agassi that sapped her enthusiasm. If that is the case it wouldnt have mattered until almost that day, since their romance was just starting to heat up during/after the French Open right? ;)
 

Warriorroger

Hall of Fame
Maybe it was her romance to Agassi that sapped her enthusiasm. If that is the case it wouldnt have mattered until almost that day, since their romance was just starting to heat up during/after the French Open right? ;)


LOL:p I would play better, if I find such a flashy guy. Maybe he showed here a future besides tennis. From interview I know she felt that it was too easy too catch up to the top players again. That is something which is missing in all those tiresome debates we had. Hingis (rightfully so) took advantage of a time in tennis where the topplayer was injured and Sanchez was no Graf. After all the operations Graf hobbled back and had a difficult time, was beaten by players, Appelmans, Snyder, Serna she'd normally have for toast. And then at the end of the year, she prove to me why she is such a great champion and beat all the top three women in a US tournament. Maybe her fighting spirit just left and she was at peace with her Wimbledon performance. I wasn't shocked by her loss, that happens, but I was shocked by her attitude on the court, it was so unGraf like.
 

anointedone

Banned
LOL:p I would play better, if I find such a flashy guy. Maybe he showed here a future besides tennis. From interview I know she felt that it was too easy too catch up to the top players again. That is something which is missing in all those tiresome debates we had. Hingis (rightfully so) took advantage of a time in tennis where the topplayer was injured and Sanchez was no Graf. After all the operations Graf hobbled back and had a difficult time, was beaten by players, Appelmans, Snyder, Serna she'd normally have for toast. And then at the end of the year, she prove to me why she is such a great champion and beat all the top three women in a US tournament. Maybe her fighting spirit just left and she was at peace with her Wimbledon performance. I wasn't shocked by her loss, that happens, but I was shocked by her attitude on the court, it was so unGraf like.

Yeah it is very possible Agassi showed Graf more of a life outside of tennis, and after so long on top and playing that took away her single minded drive and desire to play tennis which had so long been there.

You are also right about the womens game. When Hingis came to the top Graf was hobbled by injury, Seles was extremely out of shape and also dealing with her dad's sickness/impending death, Sanchez Vicario was going downhill big time at that point it seemed, Martinez was also going down. Plus Davenport and the Williams were not ready yet. You had Jana Novotna as a 29 and 30 year old having her 2 best years ever, even as #2 or #3 ranked in the World Jana was not talked about as a contender to win any of the slams outside Wimbledon really, which is pathetic for someone ranked so high. You had Coetzer reaching 2 slam semis and ending the year #4. You had Majoli get up to #4 and win a French Open. The players ranked 2-6 at the end of 97 seem almost like a joke. Novotna a no-hoper to potentialy win any slam outside Wimbledon at #2, badly out of shape Davenport (why she wasnt a major threat to Hingis yet) at #3, Coetzer at #4, also badly out of shape Seles (much worse shape then she was the other years in her comeback, even though she was always not in top shape, this year she was much worse shape with her dad being sick) at #5, Majoli at #6. Just horrible. So yeah the womens game hit a really weak patch there. The womens game is actually much stronger now then it was when Hingis was on top.

I can see Graf having the sentiment it was too easy to get back up there after the injury trouble. I can also see her feeling a sense of fulfillment already by getting back to the top after all the injuries, so that she felt empty and with nothing else to strive for anymore.
 

suwanee4712

Professional
Maybe it was her romance to Agassi that sapped her enthusiasm. If that is the case it wouldnt have mattered until almost that day, since their romance was just starting to heat up during/after the French Open right? ;)


Maybe romance was on her mind that day vs. Lindsey. But not in that semi vs. Venus. That was Graf's last great battle. In the final, I give full credit to Lindsey who played a very good match and deserved to win. But it was very unusual to see a champion of Steffi's calibur not kick it up a notch late in the match. She played on pretty much the same level throughout.

I have heard romance used as the excuse for 2 of Chris' Wimbledon losses. Was it the 1975 semi she lost to King in 3 sets? Supposedly she and Jimmy (why Chris, why?) had broken up, and Jimmy strode into a Center Court box with his new honey during the 3rd set breaking Chris' concentration.

And then Chris herself says that she lost to Martina in the 1978 final because she was in love with John Lloyd. For some reason, Martina could fight with Rita Mae and Nancy and still steamroll people the next day.

If Chrissie can use that excuse, I suppose Steffi could too.
 

Warriorroger

Hall of Fame
Maybe romance was on her mind that day vs. Lindsey. But not in that semi vs. Venus. That was Graf's last great battle. In the final, I give full credit to Lindsey who played a very good match and deserved to win. But it was very unusual to see a champion of Steffi's calibur not kick it up a notch late in the match. She played on pretty much the same level throughout.

I have heard romance used as the excuse for 2 of Chris' Wimbledon losses. Was it the 1975 semi she lost to King in 3 sets? Supposedly she and Jimmy (why Chris, why?) had broken up, and Jimmy strode into a Center Court box with his new honey during the 3rd set breaking Chris' concentration.

And then Chris herself says that she lost to Martina in the 1978 final because she was in love with John Lloyd. For some reason, Martina could fight with Rita Mae and Nancy and still steamroll people the next day.

If Chrissie can use that excuse, I suppose Steffi could too.

She played Venus in the quarters not the semis, she played Lucic in the semis. And now I sound like a smart ass.:-(
 

suwanee4712

Professional
She played Venus in the quarters not the semis, she played Lucic in the semis. And now I sound like a smart ass.:-(


No you don't, silly! :p I got it wrong. Glad you corrected me. Because I have a soft spot in my heart for Mirjana. So I'm disappointed that I had forgotten about that semi.
 

gj011

Banned
Against aging Martina. Oh wait, Seles never won Wimbledon. She got spanked by Graf. And I mean spanked.

The point of my previous comment, which you completely missed, is that Seles could have taken that Wimbledon in 1994. easily, if she was not stabbed. And that Graf can lose in 1st round from complete unknown, also in Wimbledon. So it is not all written in stone that Seles would never win a Wimbledon since she is beaten in the finals by Graf. Once.
 

grafrules

Banned
What "luck of a draw" for Seles. Her only problem in Wimbledon was Graf and she was out in 1st round.

Also if healthy and younger Graf lost in 1st round in 1994. you can't guarantee she would not have lost in 1997.

If Seles stayed #1 as you seem so certain she was going to, Graf would not have been the #1 seed at Wimbledon and would not have drawn and lost to McNeil first round anyway.

McNeil is by far the hardest non-seed, probably harder then most of the seeds, for Graf to play on grass due to her playing style. Still was a big surprise she beat her, but everyone knew it was a dangerous match due to the playing style Graf does not like to play. The odds of that kind of draw again are very remote.
 

grafrules

Banned
The point of my previous comment, which you completely missed, is that Seles could have taken that Wimbledon in 1994. easily, if she was not stabbed. And that Graf can lose in 1st round from complete unknown, also in Wimbledon. So it is not all written in stone that Seles would never win a Wimbledon since she is beaten in the finals by Graf. Once.

If Seles stayed #1 which seems to be your argument based on your previous posts, Graf would not have been the #1 seed at Wimbledon anyway so would not have drawn McNeil in the first round. So this whole scenario of the draw opening up for Seles like it did Martinez due to Graf losing would never have happened. Graf actually could have even gained a Wimbledon title from 93-96 possibly.
 

BTURNER

Legend
But she WAS injured. The record is still Navratilova's.
Would she have broken it? We don't know. We don't care.

We're not interested in IFs and BUTs

This is sooooooo true. Couldn't agree more, again we can't start taking earned titles and giving them away. The years graf did not win them, someone earned them
 

Warriorroger

Hall of Fame
The point of my previous comment, which you completely missed, is that Seles could have taken that Wimbledon in 1994. easily, if she was not stabbed. And that Graf can lose in 1st round from complete unknown, also in Wimbledon. So it is not all written in stone that Seles would never win a Wimbledon since she is beaten in the finals by Graf. Once.

Besides not caring about your point, cause you're sole purpose here is to mess things up, there is one thing that is written in stone: Monica Seles has 0 Wimbledon titles, has 0 Olympic titles and was spanked twice by Graf at Wimbledon, before her prime and in her prime.
 

gj011

Banned
There is several more fact written in stone:
1. Navratilova holds the record for most women singles titles in Wimbledon. Graf does not, and she will never hold it. End of story.

2. Seles/Graf score in GS finals are 3-1. So Seles spanked Graf 3 times in the finals in the span of couple of years, so why is this one single match always talked about?

3. Graf lost in Rd 1 in 1994 Wimbledon.

So this whole thread is a big nonsense, started by delusional Graf fans.
 

gj011

Banned
One thing they (Roger Federer & Steffi Graf) have in common: they scare(d) the crap out of their opponents when at the top. that's the kind of weapon you can't teach at the local club. and they use(d) it to perfection.

LOL. Do they teach how to use the dagger on the tennis court at the local clubs? Those kinds of weapons were most useful in Graf's carrier.
 

grafrules

Banned
There is several more fact written in stone:
1. Navratilova holds the record for most women singles titles in Wimbledon. Graf does not, and she will never hold it. End of story.

Just like Steffi Graf has 22 slams, and is the only women to win all 4 slams atleast 4 times. Just like Steffi Graf won the Grand Slam in 1988, something only 3 women in history have done, and something such greats as Evert and Navratilova did not do. Just like Steffi Graf held the #1 ranking for a record 186 consective weeks, and while computer rankings did not exist until 1973 again an impressive feat given that greats like Navratilova and Evert did not hold the #1 ranking that many consecutive weeks. That is set in stone, and nothing can change that either. End of story.

2. Seles/Graf score in GS finals are 3-1. So Seles spanked Graf 3 times in the finals in the span of couple of years, so why is this one single match always talked about?

Seles won her 3 slam finals over Graf, all on slower surfaces, by the following scores:

7-6, 6-4
6-2, 3-6, 10-8
4-6, 6-3, 6-2

Some "spanking", LOL! Why is this one match talked about? Well this is a thread about Wimbledon so naturally their slam final at Wimbledon has more to do with this thread then a final at the Australian or French Open.

3. Graf lost in Rd 1 in 1994 Wimbledon.

Sorry I forgot, that is more important then the fact she won the other 5 Wimbledons from 1991-1996. Silly me. :rolleyes:
 

gj011

Banned
Well this is a thread about Wimbledon

As you said, this thread is about Wimbledon and Navratilova holds the record. END OF STORY. No need to rant about number of weeks at #1 and other Graf's achievements tainted by dagger. Goodbye.
 

gj011

Banned
Sorry I forgot, that is more important then the fact she won the other 5 Wimbledons from 1991-1996.

Sorry I forgot too. If Graf was able to beat a complete unknown in rd 1 in 1994 she might have had a chance for a record. With that she showed that she is not worthy of a record. Navratilova was far superior and better grass court player, hence deservingly holds a record.

This delusional "would be", "should be" thread is silly and unnecessary.
 

grafrules

Banned
Well you sure spend alot of time in what you deem a "silly and unnecessary" thread. As for the 1st round loss, a shock loss happens to most everyone once in awhile. Remember Navratilova and Kathy Horvath at the French, Seles and Linda Ferrando at the U.S Open. Both of those players are even less regarded or accomplished then McNeil. Does it make them not such great champions though? Of course not.
 

Warriorroger

Hall of Fame
LOL. Do they teach how to use the dagger on the tennis court at the local clubs? Those kinds of weapons were most useful in Graf's carrier.


Why do you type LOL: you find the stabbing something to laugh about?

Being spanked means getting your ass kicked big time. 2 of those finals you mentioned where tough 3 setters. The two matches at Wimbledon were a disgrace. People shoud have gotten their money back, so brutal was the demolishing and such a poor athlete Seles was on grass. A true number one excells on all 4!!! surfaces, not just the slower ones. Who did she have to beat in the US finals, an aging Navratilova and Sanchez Vicario.

Navratilova mocked Graf's injuries, she should count her lucky stars, without them Graf would have had more Wimbledon titles. But who cares, I don't. Spanky spanky spanky.
 

grafrules

Banned
Why do you type LOL: you find the stabbing something to laugh about?

Being spanked means getting your ass kicked big time. 2 of those finals you mentioned where tough 3 setters. The two matches at Wimbledon were a disgrace. People shoud have gotten their money back, so brutal was the demolishing and such a poor athlete Seles was on grass. A true number one excells on all 4!!! surfaces, not just the slower ones. Who did she have to beat in the US finals, an aging Navratilova and Sanchez Vicario.

Navratilova mocked Graf's injuries, she should count her lucky stars, without them Graf would have had more Wimbledon titles. But who cares, I don't. Spanky spanky spanky.

OK lets be fair here. Dont fall into gj011's trap of mindlessly thrashing the player who is not your favorite.

Graf also won quite a few of her slams beating an aging Navratilova in the final, and even lost a U.S Open semi to an aging Navratilova. An aging Navratilova is still a great player. Also Graf won many of her titles vs Sanchez Vicario in the final, and even lost a couple. She is not an all time great like Graf or even Seles, but she is definitely one of the top few greats of her own generation as well, and no pushover for a champion like Graf and Seles in a Slam final.
 

Warriorroger

Hall of Fame
OK lets be fair here. Dont fall into gj011's trap of mindlessly thrashing the player who is not your favorite.

Graf also won quite a few of her slams beating an aging Navratilova in the final, and even lost a U.S Open semi to an aging Navratilova. An aging Navratilova is still a great player. Also Graf won many of her titles vs Sanchez Vicario in the final, and even lost a couple. She is not an all time great like Graf or even Seles, but she is definitely one of the top few greats of her own generation as well, and no pushover for a champion like Graf and Seles in a Slam final.


It is you who falls in a trap, by taken them seriously.
 

gj011

Banned
Why do you type LOL: you find the stabbing something to laugh about?

LOL is about your signature. Nothing else. And with signature like that, nobody could fail into a trap by taking you seriously.
 

suwanee4712

Professional
Both Steffi and Martina won some Wimbledons under rather favorable circumstances. But I suppose that's going to happen when you win 7 or 9 of these things! I don't think that discredits either's Wimbledon history. You win or lose under the circumstances that you are given.

But Steffi did have it pretty easy as compared to Martina considering that serve and volley tennis was almost extinct in the 90's. That wasn't because of the skill level of Graf's opponents but because of technology, plain and simple. But I think most would agree that a serve and volley style would've been the best approach to beat Steffi on grass (Martina, McNeil, Novotna, de Swaardt, etc. all beat or severely tested her at W).

Martina had to face grass court greats like King, Goolagong, Wade, Mandlikova, etc. who all won grand slam titles on grass using their grass court skills. Graf faced Novotna and a wave of baseliners who so easily were able to adapt their games to grass because of the presence of so few serve and volley players to pressure them. That's not Graf's fault. But when your main grass court competititon is Novotna, Sanchez, and Martinez, then we're not talking about the same kind of field.
 

anointedone

Banned
Martina had to face grass court greats like King, Goolagong, Wade, Mandlikova, etc. who all won grand slam titles on grass using their grass court skills.

Sorry but while I enjoy reading alot of your posts, I have to laugh at that summary. Martina won her first Wimbledon when Wade was already 33 years old and Billie Jean King was 34 years old. Those two women were older then Navratilova was when Graf won her first and second Wimbledons by beating Navratilova herself. When Navratilova denied a developing Graf the 87 Wimbledon title she was only 30, and her first year of dominance had only begun 5 years before that. Goolagong was not too old in 1978 (27) but she was never anywhere near the same player she had been in 1971-1976 after the maternity leave she took in 1977, despite her shock last hurrah Wimbledon title in 1980. Graf did not dominate Wimbledon during Martina's prime, but she still faced Navratilova in a more real way then Martina had to face any King, Goolagong, Wade, as King and Wade were even older, and Martina by 1987-1989 was still playing a heck of alot better then any of those women were by even 1978-1979. Heck Seles was even more of an opponent Graf faced at Wimbledon, then Wade or King for Martina at Wimbledon. Graf atleast crushed Seles once in her prime at Wimbledon, while Martina did not even play King at Wimbledon until a quarterfinal when King was 36 years old.

Mandlikova is more talented then Sanchez Vicario, Sabatini, or Novotna and her game is much more suited to grass then Sanchez Vicario or even Sabatini. However she is also far less consistent a player in her prime then any of those three were, and many times she would take herself out in early rounds to relative nobodies with some random abysmal performance before she even faced Martina. Atleast Sabatini and Novotna were very consistent making semis or better of every Wimbledon (or quarters only if they were unlucky to be drawn into Steffi's quarter) to challenge people like Graf during their primes.

I still would say Martina had tougher top competition at Wimbledon by virtue of Evert and Mandlikova. However I think Graf had more depth of competition since I think old Navratilova, Sanchez, Novotna, Sabatini, were all stronger opponents on any surface then any of Shriver, Jordan, Durie, etc....
Neither had great overall competition at all but as far as top end competition I agree Martina had a bit more, but it certainly was not because King, Wade, and Goolagong were real contemporaries of her at Wimbledon, they clearly were not.

To the thread question, yes Graf would have won atleast 10 Wimbledons had she gone down with serious injuries early in 97. She would have easily won in both 97 and 98, and would have probably won in 99 too. However injuries are part of the game and they are just something players have to do their best to avoid and hope for a bit of luck.
 

suwanee4712

Professional
Anointedone, you made some great points, several in fact that I flat out had wrong. I shouldn't have used examples like Wade and King. They both made those respective fields tougher during the Navratilova days, but it doesn't matter much if Martina didn't have to play them. In fact, I don't even remember Martina playing Wade at Wimbledon. And as you pointed out, she only played King once in a non-title year. Although if you ever get a chance to watch that match, please do. BJK played some fine tennis in 1978, 1979, 1980, and 1982 at Wimbledon.

I only remember Martina playing Gooly once too and that was in the 1978 SF. I think Gooly was still the better player at that point and might have won that match had she not had that leg injury. That match is another great one to watch too. Though watching Gooly limp around at the end wasn't pleasant to see.

Steffi's Wimbledon wins over Martina are impressive even if Martina was past her prime. She still had to climb that mountain to become the first to beat her at W since 1981. And Martina was playing some pretty good tennis again in 1989.

I had a lot of stuff wrong with my original post, so thanks for calling me out on that. Mea culpa! :)
 
This might be irrelevant but I'll say it anyway: Had Monica Seles not been stabbed Graf would've just been an A- champion. Seles would've won AU, FO and UO 1993 - 1996.

That might have also meant no UO & FO for Arantxa and no Wimby for Conchita.
 
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