Would Graf have broken Navratilova's Wimbledon singles record without being injured?

[navratilovafan]

She would have tied it with 9. This poll is dumb since there is no option for tieing it, only break or not break.

Yeah that was my feeling too. Why isnt there a "tie" option as I think that is probably the most likely.

 

[grafselesfan]

Yes I definitely think so. She would have won in 1997 and 1998 easily IMO. 1999 would have been competitive but at age 30 she would have still been in her prime without injury, and while Davenport is a gifted ball striker she isnt a good enough mover to beat a prime Graf on grass. So atleast 10 Wimbledons which would have given her the record. No doubt it was injury which denied her this prestigious record.

 

[Josherer]

Yup i thinkso

 

[julesb]

No she would not have. Hingis would have murdered her even totally healthy at Wimbledon 1997. Hingis was way too good for even a healthy Graf that year on grass. Then in 1998 she gets overpowered by whichever of Venus, Novotna, Hingis, or Tauziat she plays first. In 1999 Davenport or Venus destroys her 6-3, 6-2 even if she had stayed healthy. She never would have won another Wimbledon.

 

[boredone3456]

No she would not have. Hingis would have murdered her even totally healthy at Wimbledon 1997. Hingis was way too good for even a healthy Graf that year on grass. Then in 1998 she gets overpowered by whichever of Venus, Novotna, Hingis, or Tauziat she plays first. In 1999 Davenport or Venus destroys her 6-3, 6-2 even if she had stayed healthy. She never would have won another Wimbledon.

Completely wrong sorry. Hingis was dominated by Graf in their H2H and lost to her at Wimby in 1995 and 1996 never getting a set off off her on Grass. in 1999 Graf who by this point was worn down by injuries beat Hingis to win the French open, Healthy Graf in 1997 would have probably killed Hingis on grass like she did in 1995 and 1996. As for 1998. Venus lost to injury worn Graf at Wimbledon in 1999 so I highly doubt she would lose to her without that injury in 1998 Graf would have killed Hingis, I mean Hingis lost to Novotna, who graf is exponentially better than. Tauziat is a weak argument also, Graf is 21-0 vs Tauziat and never once dropped a set against her in those meetings so I highly doubt Tauziar would have suddenly overpowered Graf at Wimbledon. 1999..please injury worn Graf lost to Davenport 6-4 7-5, but a healthy Graf minus the injuries loses by a greater margin? that doesn't even make sense. Graf beat Venus in 1999 with the injuries, so yeah see my Venus 1998 statement.

 

[julesb]

Completely wrong sorry. Hingis was dominated by Graf in their H2H and lost to her at Wimby in 1995 and 1996 never getting a set off off her on Grass.

Hingis wasnt in her prime in 1995 and 1996. She was in her prime in 1997. In 1995 and 1996 she was only 14 and 15 years old. She was also ranked only #18 and #15 I think it was at the time of those two Wimbledons. At the time of Wimbledon 1997 she was ranked #1.

in 1999 Graf who by this point was worn down by injuries beat Hingis to win the French open,

Hingis totally outplayed Graf while the match was "normal" then fell apart, choking and eventually melting down from 6-4, 5-4 serving for it up when the crowd got into it and tortured Hingis. You must know that if you saw the match.

Healthy Graf in 1997 would have probably killed Hingis on grass like she did in 1995 and 1996.

Again 1997 Hingis was a totally different Hingis from the Hingis at Wimbledons 1995 and 1996. The real Hingis began to be formed in late 1996. She literally went from a run of the mill top 20/top 15 player up until middle 1996 to a dominant #1 during this transformation period during late 1996 which was complete by early 1997.

As for 1998. Venus lost to injury worn Graf at Wimbledon in 1999 so I highly doubt she would lose to her without that injury in 1998

Venus was better in 1998 than 1999. In 1999 some were starting to doubt her potential to win a big event since even her younger sister passed her by years end.

Graf would have killed Hingis,

No, read above. By 1998 Hingis is only even another year old and more mature compared to 1995 and 1996 vs what she already was in 1997.

I mean Hingis lost to Novotna, who graf is exponentially better than.

Novotna didnt choke for once and played the grass court tennis she is capable of. Hingis lost 6-4, 6-4, not 6-1, 6-1 in the last 2 sets of the 93 final like Graf would have had Novotna not choked.

Tauziat is a weak argument also, Graf is 21-0 vs Tauziat and never once dropped a set against her in those meetings so I highly doubt Tauziar would have suddenly overpowered Graf at Wimbledon.

Tauziat played her best tennis ever in 1998. For importantly was playing Graf in Birmingham right before Wimbledon and was up 3-0 in the first set when the match was delayed by rain, and eventually the tournament canceled due to rain. I could find you an article to prove this if you want.

Also look how Tauziat played Wimbledon 1998. First she destroyed Davenport in the quarters, Davenport was crying afterwords and said she knew grass was Tauziat's favorite surface but she never expected her to hit her groundstrokes so incredibly well. Then look how Tauziat played Novotna in the final and Zvereva in the semis. Zvereva was having the tournament of her life, easily beating both Graf and Seles and was playing outstanding tennis in the semis vs Tauziat too. However Tauziat put together an outstanding, determined, and powerful last set and half performance to break Zvereva's heart and come from a set and break down to reach the final. Then in the final vs Novotna she was playing very powerful tennis, hard serving, hard volleys, hard returns, and Novotna had to fight very hard to win despite playing one of the tournaments of her life also.

1999..please injury worn Graf lost to Davenport 6-4 7-5, but a healthy Graf minus the injuries loses by a greater margin? that doesn't even make sense. Graf beat Venus in 1999 with the injuries, so yeah see my Venus 1998 statement.

I am sorry I forget Graf actaully played Venus and Davenport in 1999 for a moment. So I take back what I said on 1999. Those are the scores I would have predicted Graf losing to them by if she played them in 1999 had she stayed healthy after 1996, had she not actually played them there that year. You are right since even with Graf diminished and removed from her prime several years early by her injuries after 1996 did even better then that I cant say she would have done that poorly, but I had forgotten she actually played them and if she hadnt played them in that state that is how I would have guessed her doing had she stayed healthy.

 

[boredone3456]

Hingis wasnt in her prime in 1995 and 1996. She was in her prime in 1997. In 1995 and 1996 she was only 14 and 15 years old. She was also ranked only #18 and #15 I think it was at the time of those two Wimbledons. At the time of Wimbledon 1997 she was ranked #1.

Graf was an exponentially better grass courter than Martina, and she didn't play Wimby in 1997 due to her injuries. Had she been healthy vs Hingis I highly doubt Hingis suddenly creams Graf.

Hingis totally outplayed Graf while the match was "normal" then fell apart, choking and eventually melting down from 6-4, 5-4 serving for it up when the crowd got into it and tortured Hingis. You must know that if you saw the match.

I did see the match, Hingis was mentally weak and let the crowd get to her, and even injury ridden Graf pushed her to 6-4 in the first, Healthy Graf would have been a whole nother story.

Again 1997 Hingis was a totally different Hingis from the Hingis at Wimbledons 1995 and 1996. The real Hingis began to be formed in late 1996. She literally went from a run of the mill top 20/top 15 player up until middle 1996 to a dominant #1 during this transformation period during late 1996 which was complete by early 1997.

yes, and she benefited in 1997 from Graf being injured and many other players running past their prime. She was young and rose to the top fast and then had a ton of trouble mentally keeping that up. Graf in 1997 healthy would have killed Hingis in my opinion

Venus was better in 1998 than 1999. In 1999 some were starting to doubt her potential to win a big event since even her younger sister passed her by years end.

1998 Venus is a toss up, but given the result in 1999 with the injuries I would be inclined to lean in favor of Graf

No, read above. By 1998 Hingis is only even another year old and more mature compared to 1995 and 1996 vs what she already was in 1997.

Graf with injuries beat Hingis in 1998 at Philadelphia 6-2 4-6 6-0, it was the only time they played that year. I would not expect a Healthy Graf to have much trouble based on that, especially with the 3rd set bagel.

Novotna didnt choke for once and played the grass court tennis she is capable of. Hingis lost 6-4, 6-4, not 6-1, 6-1 in the last 2 sets of the 93 final like Graf would have had Novotna not choked.

Regardless of that with Injuries Graf was still either beating Hingis or pushing her to 3 sets. Novotna had a mental block about Graf she didn't have with other players, she would likely have lost to Graf, she almost choked against Tauziat in the final, Graf would have taken advantage of her.


Tauziat played her best tennis ever in 1998. For importantly was playing Graf in Birmingham right before Wimbledon and was up 3-0 in the first set when the match was delayed by rain, and eventually the tournament canceled due to rain. I could find you an article to prove this if you want.

Also look how Tauziat played Wimbledon 1998. First she destroyed Davenport in the quarters, Davenport was crying afterwords and said she knew grass was Tauziat's favorite surface but she never expected her to hit her groundstrokes so incredibly well. Then look how Tauziat played Novotna in the final and Zvereva in the semis. Zvereva was having the tournament of her life, easily beating both Graf and Seles and was playing outstanding tennis in the semis vs Tauziat too. However Tauziat put together an outstanding, determined, and powerful last set and half performance to break Zvereva's heart and come from a set and break down to reach the final. Then in the final vs Novotna she was playing very powerful tennis, hard serving, hard volleys, hard returns, and Novotna had to fight very hard to win despite playing one of the tournaments of her life also.

Tauziat & Zvereva played well, but Wimbledon that year was Graf's first slam tournament since the 1997 French Open, she was rusty from injuries and little match play. She was 20-1 lifetime Against Zvereva so to me that one win for Zvereva can pretty much be summed up as a fluke win because of Graf's health and relatively little match play going into the tournament. And I already mentioned Graf's h2h with Tauziat.

I am sorry I forget Graf actaully played Venus and Davenport in 1999 for a moment. So I take back what I said on 1999. Those are the scores I would have predicted Graf losing to them by if she played them in 1999 had she stayed healthy after 1996, had she not actually played them there that year. You are right since even with Graf diminished and removed from her prime several years early by her injuries after 1996 did even better then that I cant say she would have done that poorly, but I had forgotten she actually played them and if she hadnt played them in that state that is how I would have guessed her doing had she stayed healthy.

ok...you made an error so we leave it at that so we'll drop that one

 

[julesb]

Graf was an exponentially better grass courter than Martina, and she didn't play Wimby in 1997 due to her injuries. Had she been healthy vs Hingis I highly doubt Hingis suddenly creams Graf.

Graf did not beat any grass courters the caliber of Martina Hingis to win Wimbledon so we dont really know who is the better grass courter. Graf beat the other Martina (who yes I know in her prime would be way better than Martina Hingis on grass) in Wimbledon finals at age 31 and 32, after couldnt even beat her in the Wimbledon final when she was age 30. Graf won her 3rd Wimbledon by beating Sabatini in the final, a lesser player than Hingis, and Sabatini choked serving for the match or would have won instead. Graf won her 4th Wimbledon by beating a muted Seles. Graf won her 5th Wimbledon by beating Jana "choke" Novotna, who as usual choked away a big lead the same way she did vs Hingis in 1997. Graf won her 6th and 7th Wimbledons by beating Sanchez Vicario, a lesser player and lesser grass court player than Martina.

However even if Graf probably still is a greater grass court player than Martina, Martina was on fire in 1997 and that is why she probably would have won anyway. Sabatini isnt even as good a grass court player or player as Hingis, let alone Graf, yet she should have beaten Graf in 1991. So I dont see how Hingis wouldnt have been able to in 1997.


I did see the match, Hingis was mentally weak and let the crowd get to her, and even injury ridden Graf pushed her to 6-4 in the first, Healthy Graf would have been a whole nother story.

By your reasoning I could say even vs a 15 year old 15th ranked Hingis, Graf only could win their 2nd set at Wimbledon 6-4.


yes, and she benefited in 1997 from Graf being injured and many other players running past their prime. She was young and rose to the top fast and then had a ton of trouble mentally keeping that up. Graf in 1997 healthy would have killed Hingis in my opinion

Who was past their prime other than Graf and Seles? Sanchez Vicario, Novotna, Martinez, Pierce, were all still very strong.

It makes no sense to say a healthy Graf would have killed Hingis in 1997 when you look at their 1996 results. 15 year old Hingis beat Graf on clay in their first meeting of the year. Graf's only easy win was at grass at Wimbledon (oh I forgot a 6-4 set automaticaly means close, so scratch that). Then they played at the U.S Open in the semis and Graf had to save 5 match points to win a 7-5 first set. Then soon after Hingis's 16th birthday Graf took 5 sets to beat a cramping Hingis on lightning carpet courts in the Chase year end Championships. Yet Graf would have suddenly started killing a stronger and more dominant Hingis a year later. Dream on.


Graf with injuries beat Hingis in 1998 at Philadelphia 6-2 4-6 6-0, it was the only time they played that year. I would not expect a Healthy Graf to have much trouble based on that, especially with the 3rd set bagel.

One match is too small a sample size. Hingis's confidence was shattered by losing the final 3 slams of that year after her dominant 1997 and mentally she wasnt quite right for a bit after the U.S Open especialy. She didnt recover her confidence until the 1998 Chase Championships. Plus indoors is Hingis's worst surface by far. She is much more comfortable on grass or any other surface than indoors.


Regardless of that with Injuries Graf was still either beating Hingis or pushing her to 3 sets. Novotna had a mental block about Graf she didn't have with other players, she would likely have lost to Graf, she almost choked against Tauziat in the final, Graf would have taken advantage of her.

There is no gaurantee Graf would have played Novotna in the final. Novotna choked and played poorly in the final as usual, but in the semis and quarters she did not and played great tennis.


Tauziat & Zvereva played well, but Wimbledon that year was Graf's first slam tournament since the 1997 French Open, she was rusty from injuries and little match play. She was 20-1 lifetime Against Zvereva so to me that one win for Zvereva can pretty much be summed up as a fluke win because of Graf's health and relatively little match play going into the tournament. And I already mentioned Graf's h2h with Tauziat.

Zvereva also beat Seles who she had never beaten before. Isnt it possible she just had the tournament of her life and that is why she finally beat Graf and Seles and leave it at that. Also you didnt even note my point that Graf was on her way to losing that Birmingham semi just before Wimbledon to Tauziat before the rains saved her. I can dig up an article on the match and that she was losing before the tournament cancellation altogether if you wish.


Why are you even arguing that Graf would have won Wimbledon 1997 and 1998 anyway? You voted "no" on the poll to her breaking the record had she stayed healthy. Well 1997 and 1998 titles already take her to 9 which is what Martina has. Then you are pointing out how even injured she nearly beat Davenport in 1999 and seemingly arguing in her favor there too. So which is it, it seems you are contradicting your own vote in the poll basically in your effort to go out of your way to disagree with me.

 

[boredone3456]

I never said Graf would have won 1999 Wimbledon. I was pointing out an inconsistancy in your argument. As for my vote in the poll I feel she would have tied the record and not flat out owned it, so no was the appropriate vote as there was no option for a tie.

I feel without the injuries she wins in 1997, 1998, and I feel Davenport would still win in 1999 because she was zoned in throughout the tournament and fresh off her US Open the previous had a lot more Grand Slam level confidence so I think she would still be able to beat Graf if they played, can't prove it but when Davenport was dialed she was hard to top, I think she would have taken healthy Steffi in 3, but thats just my opinion.

Regardless of that, the draws all would have been different all those years without Grafs injury sidelining her. Graf is a phenominal Player and I really think Hingis on grass was always a bit overated, she was a good hardcourt player and pretty good on clay, but on grass she seemed uncomfortable and out of place. Hingis in my opinion suffered from "to much to soon" syndrome. Mentally I do not believe she was in any way ready to be number 1 when she got there, which I think is why 1998 was abysmal in comparison to 1997 for her. If you disagree thats fine since it can't be proven either way

Hingis had a joke draw to the finals of Wimbledon in 1997. She did win, and yes you can only beat who is on the other side of the net; but overall the competition directly in her way was pretty measly that year and that draw isn't one Hingis could brag about conquering.

 

[navratilovafan]

I feel sorry for Hingis in some ways. I agree it was a case of "too much too soon". She really rose to the top a bit too quickly when there were still improvements to be made on her game. She became a bit too complacent at that point, the weakened field making her feel as though she were better than she really was. Then when the competition improved this complacency led her to be unable to cope as well as she would have liked, and the losses came as more of a shock than they really should due to her premature dominance and led to a gradual erosion to her confidence. I think if she came up to a stronger field, say won 1 slam and reached the top 3 in 1997, it would have set her on course for a possibly better career. I think Henin had it better than Hingis in a way in that she had to come up vs alot of strong players at their peak, she had to work hard on improving her game, body, and mind, and work her way to the top the hard work which payed dividends in the end. Now Hingis is looked at as someone who was almost a bit of a flash in the pan, rose quickly and flickered out quickly as well, dominated briefly a very weak field then was bullied out of the game by the big hitters to soon emerge. That is a shame as though while I am not a fan, she is better than that and a better talent to have her career go down as that.

Grass was always Hingis's worst surface. Even prime pre-stabbing Seles would have had atleast a fighting shot against her vs grass. Wouldnt be certain to win of course, Hingis in fact probably would, but Seles would have had a shot unlike if she played Graf or even a normal Novotna. The only reason Hingis won Wimbledon in 1997 is Novotna not only pulled her usual choking act, but was also quite injured. She was suffering from a stomach pull that greatly impacted her serve especialy as the match wore on. The first set made it plainly clear who was the more skilled grass court player, before Novotna's physical suffering began midway through the 2nd set.