WTF should not be worth any ATP points.

[Rafa24]

Convince me that it should be worth points as only 8 players are allowed to participate which puts the rest of the field at a bigger disadvantage trying to get to the top. I mean I understand in a way they make it 1500 points just to try and get players to go because most don't want to be there and if it were no points they wouldn't get the top players there.

I feel it should move to a monetary only event. That would still bring players in and not give the top 8 a bigger advantage in points.

 

[oldmanfan]

By that 'no advantage' logic, let's have every tourney do draws without seeds, no?

 

[tusharlovesrafa]

It's an EXO...

 

[Subway Tennis]

I'm still wavering. For me the whole idea of an end of year event is starting to feel very redundant.

But by the same token, not that long ago it was truly an amazing event. Some of my favourite matches ever have been from when it was TMC (Agassi vs Kuerten, Sampras vs Becker)

I'm waiting to see what Turin does with it, but there is no doubt that something has to change.

A points downgrade to match the lower status of the event should have happened a long time ago, but the ATP would never do that. The ATP wants to have a showcase event to attract tennis consumers who are already obsessed with majors. The event has to sit on a tier between m1000 and majors in order to stand out.

 

[AceSalvo]

Is it because Nadal has NADA at the WTF??

LOL at Nadal fans crying for 0 points at WTF. Thats a 1st.

 

[beast of mallorca]

Convince me that it should be worth points as only 8 players are allowed to participate which puts the rest of the field at a bigger disadvantage trying to get to the top. I mean I understand in a way they make it 1500 points just to try and get players to go because most don't want to be there and if it were no points they wouldn't get the top players there.

I feel it should move to a monetary only event. That would still bring players in and not give the top 8 a bigger advantage in points.

Don't be ridiculous. I'm a Rafa fan myself, but just because Rafa has not won the tournament, does it mean that it is not an official ATP tournament and one should deride at it or whatever. WTF was put up by ATP as the year ending tournament. The set up might be different, but it is, what it is. If Nadal can't win it, just accept it as a Fan and move on. Don't be a Feddyphant

 

[Aussie Darcy]

It's so sad how Nadal fans are desperate to diminish the importance of the WTF and yet Fed fans don't diminish the Olympics (which by the way, doesn't offer ATP points).

It's a yearly event between the best 8 players in the world, it's important to the tour.

 

[Robert F]

It certainly keeps the top guys elevated since only 8 guys can get the points.
Kept Zverev's rank up for most of the year and he didn't do too much outside of last year.

 

[AceSalvo]

It's so sad how Nadal fans are desperate to diminish the importance of the WTF and yet Fed fans don't diminish the Olympics (which by the way, doesn't offer ATP points).

It's a yearly event between the best 8 players in the world, it's important to the tour.

I was going to post the same thing. Fed fans were calling for 1500 points for OSG and Nadal fans are crying for 0 points at WTF.

Thats the very definition of hypocrisy. But that is synonymous to the phrase "Nadal fans".

 

[tudwell]

Convince me that it should be worth points as only 8 players are allowed to participate which puts the rest of the field at a bigger disadvantage trying to get to the top. I mean I understand in a way they make it 1500 points just to try and get players to go because most don't want to be there and if it were no points they wouldn't get the top players there.

I feel it should move to a monetary only event. That would still bring players in and not give the top 8 a bigger advantage in points.

But by that same logic... every tournament lets in only a small portion of the overall field of professionals. A guy ranked 200 isn't going to get direct entry into a Masters tournament, and all the players that do get direct entry automatically get a huge points bonus in comparison. If your argument held any water, the entire structure of the tour would be in need of revision.

 

[tudwell]

It's so sad how Nadal fans are desperate to diminish the importance of the WTF and yet Fed fans don't diminish the Olympics (which by the way, doesn't offer ATP points).

It's a yearly event between the best 8 players in the world, it's important to the tour.

Most Fed fans don't. But there are some trolls who definitely do diminish the Olympics.

I do wish it still offered points. I know it's weird since the victor can't possibly defend them the following year, but it feels wrong for the Olympics to be worth 0.

 

[hipolymer]

Convince me that it should be worth points as only 8 players are allowed to participate

you mean kinda like the atp masters, which are open to the ... top 64 players ?

 

[gn]

I agree,OP. WTF does not feature a player ranked outside Top 20. Thus, the tournament gives unfair advantage to participants other than Nadal.

 

[tudwell]

you mean kinda like the atp masters, which are open to the ... top 64 players ?

Not even, because they have byes and also have to leave room for wildcards and qualifiers.

AND players who do get direct entry get 10 ATP points even if they lose first round. They literally get points for winning 0 matches. Talk about unfair.

 

[AceSalvo]

I agree,OP. WTF does not feature a player ranked outside Top 20. Thus, the tournament gives unfair advantage to participants other than Nadal.

 

[Lleytonstation]

I'm still wavering. For me the whole idea of an end of year event is starting to feel very redundant.

But by the same token, not that long ago it was truly an amazing event. Some of my favourite matches ever have been from when it was TMC (Agassi vs Kuerten, Sampras vs Becker)

I'm waiting to see what Turin does with it, but there is no doubt that something has to change.

A points downgrade to match the lower status of the event should have happened a long time ago, but the ATP would never do that. The ATP wants to have a showcase event to attract tennis consumers who are already obsessed with majors. The event has to sit on a tier between m1000 and majors in order to stand out.

A switch of surface every year would make it more interesting.

 

[Deleted member 688153]

The idea is the Top 8 at the end of the race contains the only players with a prayer of being YE #1, so the extra points help spice that up. Also it's a very tough event so should be worth something.

For anyone other than some Nadal fans apparently, this isn't difficult to understand.

 

[oldmanfan]

A switch of surface every year would make it more interesting.

I would agree... except injury would be a real concern having just played indoor hc and after a grueling season.

 

[Enga]

It would detract from its entertainment value if it didnt give points. It would just be some matches with top players, which in itself is entertaining but we like to believe as an audience that the players are trying their best.

 

[Lleytonstation]

I would agree... except injury would be a real concern having just played indoor hc and after a grueling season.

Does not seem to bother Djoker and rafa when skipping grass, or Fed when he skips clay. Arrive a few days early and get it on.

 

[r2473]

WTF should be worth zero.

But each member of the winning Laver Cup should get 3,000 points. Losers should get 2,000

Jack Sock approves.

 

[Subway Tennis]

A switch of surface every year would make it more interesting.

A grass WTF would be good and would love to see a version that revives carpet or at least superfast hardcourt.

 

[tudwell]

A switch of surface every year would make it more interesting.

I've never liked or understood this line of thought. The WTF is the culmination of the fall indoor season. Indoor tennis was a huge part of the tour in the 70s and 80s and it's steadily diminished since. Getting rid of the biggest indoor tournament in the world will only further the homogenization of the tour. Frankly, I think Shanghai and pretty much every other post-US Open tournament should be indoors. Indoor tennis has disappeared enough as it is.

 

[oldmanfan]

Does not seem to bother Djoker and rafa when skipping grass, or Fed when he skips clay. Arrive a few days early and get it on.

I didn't say they 'will' get injured, but the chances would be higher. By flip flopping between surfaces for the final tournament of the year is just asking for trouble, i.e., going from indoor hc to clay/grass presents unnecessary risks. And these are top10 players, the tour's cash cows. If any of the Big3 were injured by it, everyone would suffer, especially the AO (except the winner).

 

[Lleytonstation]

I've never liked or understood this line of thought. The WTF is the culmination of the fall indoor season. Indoor tennis was a huge part of the tour in the 70s and 80s and it's steadily diminished since. Getting rid of the biggest indoor tournament in the world will only further the homogenization of the tour. Frankly, I think Shanghai and pretty much every other post-US Open tournament should be indoors. Indoor tennis has disappeared enough as it is.

Yes, but maybe every other year indoor and then on odd years grass or clay. Or just grass considering there are no grass masters. Plus, it would force the location to move every year.

 

[AceSalvo]

A switch of surface every year would make it more interesting.

Indoor M1000's should lead to the Indoor Slam (which is what the WTF is) just like every other slams have their M1000 groupings (except for Wimbledon )

So how is playing 2 Indoor HC going to transition to an Indoor Clay at WTF??

 

[Lleytonstation]

I didn't say they 'will' get injured, but the chances would be higher. By flip flopping between surfaces for the final tournament of the year is just asking for trouble, i.e., going from indoor hc to clay/grass presents unnecessary risks. And these are top10 players, the tour's cash cows. If any of the Big3 were injured by it, everyone would suffer, especially the AO (except the winner).

Going to have to agree to disagree here. I just think it has gotten stale over the years.

 

[Lleytonstation]

Indoor M1000's should lead to the Indoor Slam (which is what the WTF is) just like every other slams have their M1000 groupings (except for Wimbledon )

So how is playing 2 Indoor HC going to transition to an Indoor Clay at WTF??

Interesting look at it as a mini slam. Never thought of it this way.

 

[tudwell]

Yes, but maybe every other year indoor and then on odd years grass or clay. Or just grass considering there are no grass masters. Plus, it would force the location to move every year.

I sympathize with the sentiment. A grass Masters would be even nicer. Switching out some of the endless outdoor hard court tournaments to something else (grass, carpet [RIP], indoor hard) would be a very refreshing change of pace. I just personally don't want to sacrifice the WTF, which, after what has become of Paris in recent years, is really the only remotely significant indoor tournament on the tour.

 

[oldmanfan]

Going to have to agree to disagree here. I just think it has gotten stale over the years.

Yup. But I will add that you have to consider it from a perspective other than just the 'novelty' of switching surfaces (also, if so, we might as well ask that all the slams switch surfaces from time to time). Fedr's physio has said that training for clay is very different from training for hc. The players can 'play' on the abrupt surface change, but it doesn't mean the'll perform to their ability (except Nadl on clay ).

 

[AceSalvo]

Going to have to agree to disagree here. I just think it has gotten stale over the years.

WTF being watered down to Best of 3 is what made is "stale".

 

[Subway Tennis]

just like every other slams have their M1000 groupings (except for Wimbledon )

Only 2 of the 4 majors have m1000 groupings. It's not a common element of the majors at all.

 

[Lleytonstation]

WTF being watered down to Best of 3 is what made is "stale".

Unfortunately we might have to get used to it all around.

 

[AceSalvo]

Only 2 of the 4 majors have m1000 groupings. It's not a common element of the majors at all.

Do you even know what's on the ATP tour menu??

AO has IW, Miami
FO has MC, Madrid, Rome
USO has Canada, Cinci.
Wimbledon has 0

Thats 3/4.

 

[tudwell]

WTF being watered down to Best of 3 is what made is "stale".

Unless you're one of the half dozen players playing the Davis Cup final, it's the last match of the season. I really don't understand why it can't be best of 5.

 

[Rafa24]

Don't be ridiculous. I'm a Rafa fan myself, but just because Rafa has not won the tournament, does it mean that it is not an official ATP tournament and one should deride at it or whatever. WTF was put up by ATP as the year ending tournament. The set up might be different, but it is, what it is. If Nadal can't win it, just accept it as a Fan and move on. Don't be a Feddyphant

it's the only tournament like it. round robin. you can lose matches and still win it. only best of 3. only 8 players......

 

[Rafa24]

Indoor M1000's should lead to the Indoor Slam (which is what the WTF is) just like every other slams have their M1000 groupings (except for Wimbledon )

So how is playing 2 Indoor HC going to transition to an Indoor Clay at WTF??

a slam with 8 players that is best of 3. where you can lose multiple matches and still win. just lol

 

[Rafa24]

I would agree... except injury would be a real concern having just played indoor hc and after a grueling season.

non issue. players switch from clay to grass with no issue.

 

[Rafa24]

It certainly keeps the top guys elevated since only 8 guys can get the points.
Kept Zverev's rank up for most of the year and he didn't do too much outside of last year.

which shows how much of a joke it is. zverev and dimitrov have won it. lol

 

[tudwell]

it's the only tournament like it. round robin. you can lose matches and still win it. only best of 3. only 8 players......

Round robin formats were not nearly as uncommon back in the 70s (and before in the pro tour days). I do wish the final was still best of 5, but I like that it's round robin. Literally every other tournament is a single-elimination knock-out. It's a nice change of pace. I wouldn't mind having a couple more round robin tournaments, to be honest. Nothing wrong with that format.

 

[Harry_Wild]

You have to make/qualify for the WTF like any other tournament! Master 1000, 500, 250, etc... GS are wider draw with a lot of WC, Quaifiers, etc...

 

[Subway Tennis]

Do you even know what's on the ATP tour menu??

AO has IW, Miami
FO has MC, Madrid, Rome
USO has Canada, Cinci.
Wimbledon has 0

Thats 3/4.

Indian Wells starts in April, a Month after the Australian Open.

The two events are staged in entirely different hemispheres, and are separated by the South American clay swing and several smaller Middle Eastern and European events.

It's wrong to compare AO and IW to the "unofficial" m1000 / major groupings that occur for RG and USO.

 

[Backspin1183]

Don't forget Miami and Paris-Bercy either. And any other tournament Nadal didn't want to win.

 

[sredna42]

Indoor tennis is real tennis.
There should be some events on carpet again too, the tour is becoming dangerously uniform. And boring.

 

[oldmanfan]

Round robin formats were not nearly as uncommon back in the 70s (and before in the pro tour days). I do wish the final was still best of 5, but I like that it's round robin. Literally every other tournament is a single-elimination knock-out. It's a nice change of pace. I wouldn't mind having a couple more round robin tournaments, to be honest. Nothing wrong with that format.

I'm ok with the round-robin format too, but I think it needs a tweak. If the 2 finalists went 1-1 H2H after the matches, they they should play a super TB to decide the champion. I don't like how currently, PlayerA can lose a match in RR to PlayerB, but when they meet in the finals and PlayerA won, he gets the title. I think a super TB should decide the champion in this scenario, to have a definitive champion.

Or, if you are familiar with Street Fighter tourney format, the WTF can use that double-elimination format. If you lose, you fall to 'losers bracket'. Lose a 2nd time, and you're out.

 

[beast of mallorca]

Do you even know what's on the ATP tour menu??

AO has IW, Miami
FO has MC, Madrid, Rome
USO has Canada, Cinci.
Wimbledon has 0

Thats 3/4.

You don't even know what you are talking about. AO does not have Indian Wells and Miami Open. It's an entirely different "series" altogether. What a dodo

 

[DSH]

OP, your thread deserve

 

[Mainad]

Convince me that it should be worth points as only 8 players are allowed to participate which puts the rest of the field at a bigger disadvantage trying to get to the top. I mean I understand in a way they make it 1500 points just to try and get players to go because most don't want to be there and if it were no points they wouldn't get the top players there.

I feel it should move to a monetary only event. That would still bring players in and not give the top 8 a bigger advantage in points.

How about when Rafa wins it? I'm guessing that will convince you.

 

[Rafa24]

How about when Rafa wins it? I'm guessing that will convince you.

I hope he doesn't even play it. No point in risking injury for something that is meaningless. Stay healthy for 2020 AO for #20!

 

[Mainad]

I hope he doesn't even play it. No point in risking injury for something that is meaningless. Stay healthy for 2020 AO for #20!

Yes you do and you won't regard it as meaningless if he wins it. The event has been played now for almost 50 years and almost all the best players have won it.