Nadal vs. the One-Handed Backhand

Nadalgaenger

Nadalgaenger

G.O.A.T.
ESPN put up an interesting graphic during the Nadal/Almagro match today. It turns out that the players on tour who are without wins against Nadal are: Wawrinka, Gasquet, Almagro, Matthieu, and a couple of guys I don't remember. What do three of these guys have in common?

Three are right-handed players with one-handed backhands.

Since there aren't many one-handed backhands left, it is logical to assume that Nadal's game is basically anathema to a righty with a one-handed backhand. If anything, Fed has done well to keep the Head-to-Head as close as it is.

Thoughts?
 
FlashFlare11

FlashFlare11

Hall of Fame
I believe this. When Nadal was growing up and Toni was coaching him as a boy, the most dominant players at the time used one-handed backhands. It comes as no surprise that one day there would emerge a player that would challenge the domination of the stroke with a direct counter, and Nadal's forehand creates an effective counter.

I am a bit surprised that players like Wawrinka and Gasquet have never beaten Nadal, as their backhands are the best shots and their games as a whole are pretty good.

But, yes, Nadal's forehand is the greatest threat to a one-handed backhand user in history.
 
OldFedIsOld

OldFedIsOld

Professional
Backhand preference really doesn't matter when playing against Nadal, Gasquet has a monster backhand and can rip a new one if the ball is high. The thing is all of these guys (its Mahut not Mathieu, Mathieu hits two handed) don't have anything else that can hurt Nadal. Only reason why Fed actually has some numbers against Nadal disregarding his backhand, is because he has everything else that can match Nadal.

Nadal doesn't have to abuse the other One-hander's backhands as much because he can play to their forehand side and still win. Against Fed who has arguably the best forehand of all time, Nadal has to hit to his backhand or else he will have a lot of trouble. Its a strategy created by the evil mind of Uncle F****ng Toni, spam crosscourt topspin forehands to Fed's forehand until he breaks down.

If only Fed would get it into his head to do the same to Nadal...
^He did at the WTF and Indian wells this year, as well as the first set at AO.
 
FlashFlare11

FlashFlare11

Hall of Fame
I find it a bit ironic that Nadal employs this strategy, as the way to beat him is to break down his backhand. Federer has finally figured this out and Djokovic saw this last year. They pound the backhand and open up the court before they get the short ball and put it away for an easy winner.
 
BreakPoint

BreakPoint

Bionic Poster
There are also many righty two-handed backhand players who have never beaten Nadal or have very one-sided records.

Besides, there are some one-handed backhand players that have had some success against Nadal in the past, like Blake, Youzhny, Mahut, Gaudio, etc.
 
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BreakPoint

BreakPoint

Bionic Poster
OldFedIsOld said:
Backhand preference really doesn't matter when playing against Nadal, Gasquet has a monster backhand and can rip a new one if the ball is high. The thing is all of these guys (its Mahut not Mathieu, Mathieu hits two handed) don't have anything else that can hurt Nadal. Only reason why Fed actually has some numbers against Nadal disregarding his backhand, is because he has everything else that can match Nadal.

Nadal doesn't have to abuse the other One-hander's backhands as much because he can play to their forehand side and still win. Against Fed who has arguably the best forehand of all time, Nadal has to hit to his backhand or else he will have a lot of trouble. Its a strategy created by the evil mind of Uncle F****ng Toni, spam crosscourt topspin forehands to Fed's forehand until he breaks down.

If only Fed would get it into his head to do the same to Nadal...
^He did at the WTF and Indian wells this year, as well as the first set at AO.
Click to expand...
It is Mathieu. Mathieu has the worst record out of anyone who has never beaten Nadal. He's 0-10 versus Nadal: http://www.atpworldtour.com/Players/Head-To-Head.aspx?pId=N409&oId=M850

The OP is referring to a graphic shown on ESPN today that showed 4 players that have never beaten Nadal and their records. The worst was Mathieu, followed by Gasquet, Wawrinka, and Almagro.

You mean Nadal's forehand to Federer's backhand.
 
Raging Buddha

Raging Buddha

Semi-Pro
OldFedIsOld said:
Backhand preference really doesn't matter when playing against Nadal, Gasquet has a monster backhand and can rip a new one if the ball is high. The thing is all of these guys (its Mahut not Mathieu, Mathieu hits two handed) don't have anything else that can hurt Nadal. Only reason why Fed actually has some numbers against Nadal disregarding his backhand, is because he has everything else that can match Nadal.

Nadal doesn't have to abuse the other One-hander's backhands as much because he can play to their forehand side and still win. Against Fed who has arguably the best forehand of all time, Nadal has to hit to his backhand or else he will have a lot of trouble. Its a strategy created by the evil mind of Uncle F****ng Toni, spam crosscourt topspin forehands to Fed's forehand until he breaks down.

If only Fed would get it into his head to do the same to Nadal...
^He did at the WTF and Indian wells this year, as well as the first set at AO.
Click to expand...

Can't be Mahut, he has beaten nadal at Queens 2007.
 
OldFedIsOld

OldFedIsOld

Professional
BreakPoint said:
It is Mathieu. Mathieu has the worst record out of anyone who has never beaten Nadal. He's 0-10 versus Nadal: http://www.atpworldtour.com/Players/Head-To-Head.aspx?pId=N409&oId=M850

The OP is referring to a graphic shown on ESPN today that showed 4 players that have never beaten Nadal and their records. The worst was Mathieu, followed by Gasquet, Wawrinka, and Almagro.

You mean Nadal's forehand to Federer's backhand.
Click to expand...

My bad :oops: , thanks for correcting me. I thought he was referring to just one handers, didn't see him talk about the graphic.
 
Nadalgaenger

Nadalgaenger

G.O.A.T.
Those opponents who have given Nadal trouble (Del Potro, Soderling, and of course Djoker) are exceptionally good at handling the high backhand. Anyone who has experimented with both the one-hander and two-handed backhand knows that it is far easier to come over a high ball with the two-handed backhand.

It was a thing of beauty last year to see Nadal try that same old strategy against Djoker and see it thrown back in his face as Nole ripped backhand winners crosscourt (see match point in Madrid '11 for example).

Nadal's entire game is based on this basic strategy.

Basically Federer or any other one-handed BH cannot beat Nadal on a high-bouncing court.
 
J

joeri888

G.O.A.T.
BreakPoint said:
There are also many righty two-handed backhand players who have never beaten Nadal or have very one-sided records.

Besides, there are some one-handed backhand players that have had some success against Nadal in the past, like Blake, Youzhny, Mahut, Gaudio, etc.
Click to expand...

Why isn't Federer in there? He has 10 wins against Nadal.
 
J

joeri888

G.O.A.T.
Nadalgaenger said:
Those opponents who have given Nadal trouble (Del Potro, Soderling, and of course Djoker) are exceptionally good at handling the high backhand. Anyone who has experimented with both the one-hander and two-handed backhand knows that it is far easier to come over a high ball with the two-handed backhand.

It was a thing of beauty last year to see Nadal try that same old strategy against Djoker and see it thrown back in his face as Nole ripped backhand winners crosscourt (see match point in Madrid '11 for example).

Nadal's entire game is based on this basic strategy.

Basically Federer or any other one-handed BH cannot beat Nadal on a high-bouncing court.
Click to expand...

Federer has beaten Nadal in Hamburg, Madrid, Miami, Indian Wells, those are all moderate to high bouncing courts.
 
Nadalgaenger

Nadalgaenger

G.O.A.T.
joeri888 said:
Federer has beaten Nadal in Hamburg, Madrid, Miami, Indian Wells, those are all moderate to high bouncing courts.
Click to expand...

Fair enough. The basic point though is that Fed will always have to work twice as hard as someone like Djoker to stay in long rallies with Nadal on those courts.

And Hamburg and Madrid, let alone any of the hard-courts you mentioned, don't have anything like the high bounce at Monte Carlo or Roland Garros.
 
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J

joeri888

G.O.A.T.
Nadalgaenger said:
Fair enough. The basic point though is that Fed will always have to work twice as hard as someone like Djoker to stay in long rallies with Nadal on those courts.

And Hamburg and Madrid, let alone any of the hard-courts you mentioned, have anything like the high bounce at Monte Carlo or Roland Garros.
Click to expand...

Agreed.
Just like to point out taht statements like Federer can't beat Nadal are often exaggerated on these boards, as Fed has 10 wins over Rafa.
 
aldeayeah

aldeayeah

G.O.A.T.
FlashFlare11 said:
I find it a bit ironic that Nadal employs this strategy, as the way to beat him is to break down his backhand. Federer has finally figured this out and Djokovic saw this last year. They pound the backhand and open up the court before they get the short ball and put it away for an easy winner.
Click to expand...

Doesn't really work in clay, though. Unless you are on fire à la Djesus.
 
MG1

MG1

Professional
Unfortunately Roger didn't get the chance to play nadal at the relative faster surface USO,Canada,Cincy,Shanghai,Bercy but consistently keep playing him pre wimbledon part of calendar otherwise H2H thing would be much similar kinda 18-15 something.

He got chances to play nadal only at WTF in after wimby tournaments & everyone knows the result.
 
Clay lover

Clay lover

Legend
As BP mentioned, a lot of other players have problems with Nadal too. Thing is you have to have a complete or a consistent and aggressive game to beat Nadal in the first place.
 
SLD76

SLD76

G.O.A.T.
OldFedIsOld said:
Backhand preference really doesn't matter when playing against Nadal, Gasquet has a monster backhand and can rip a new one if the ball is high. The thing is all of these guys (its Mahut not Mathieu, Mathieu hits two handed) don't have anything else that can hurt Nadal. Only reason why Fed actually has some numbers against Nadal disregarding his backhand, is because he has everything else that can match Nadal.

Nadal doesn't have to abuse the other One-hander's backhands as much because he can play to their forehand side and still win. Against Fed who has arguably the best forehand of all time, Nadal has to hit to his backhand or else he will have a lot of trouble. Its a strategy created by the evil mind of Uncle F****ng Toni, spam crosscourt topspin forehands to Fed's forehand until he breaks down.

If only Fed would get it into his head to do the same to Nadal...
^He did at the WTF and Indian wells this year, as well as the first set at AO.
Click to expand...


he did it at Madrid in 2009 too.
 
B

BevelDevil

Hall of Fame
I don't think it's so much about the weakness of their backhands, as the fact that their strengths (backhands) run right into Nada's strengths (forehand, movement). And Almagro's the only one who comes close to having a 2nd weapon (his forehand's the best of the three, I think).

Against Nadal, I'd take any of their backhands over anyone else's 1hbh, including Federer's.
 
WhiskeyEE

WhiskeyEE

G.O.A.T.
MG1 said:
Unfortunately Roger didn't get the chance to play nadal at the relative faster surface USO,Canada,Cincy,Shanghai,Bercy but consistently keep playing him pre wimbledon part of calendar otherwise H2H thing would be much similar kinda 18-15 something.

He got chances to play nadal only at WTF in after wimby tournaments & everyone knows the result.
Click to expand...

I did an analysis in another thread and it turned out that Rafa had a VERY slight advantage when you normalized for the slow court (pre-wimby) skew in their h2h. So going by that it would be something like 14-14 or possibly 15-13.

However, I believe that, if they had played evenly on the various surfaces, Fed would actually have the positive h2h. Their constant meetings on slow courts led to the negative h2h and caused Rafa to get in Fed's head. This made him lose more of their past meetings than he would have if he had gotten a couple wins on fast courts each year.
 
D

dominikk1985

Legend
FlashFlare11 said:
I find it a bit ironic that Nadal employs this strategy, as the way to beat him is to break down his backhand. Federer has finally figured this out and Djokovic saw this last year. They pound the backhand and open up the court before they get the short ball and put it away for an easy winner.
Click to expand...

I actually think the opposite is true. since 2005 players are trying to hit into nadals BH. but nadal counters that by running around.

novak dominated him because his BH was able to destroy nadals FH. he pounded his FH hard and THEN went into the BH corner which is of course nadals weaker side.

other players just try to rip into Nadals BH corner and then get beat by nadal running around. but novak had the guts to pound nadals FH. but you have to really go into wide FH and not down the middle.
 
martini1

martini1

Hall of Fame
BreakPoint said:
There are also many righty two-handed backhand players who have never beaten Nadal or have very one-sided records.

Besides, there are some one-handed backhand players that have had some success against Nadal in the past, like Blake, Youzhny, Mahut, Gaudio, etc.
Click to expand...

Only Nole's 2hbh can eat up Rafa's fh consistently. No one else in the top 10 got any good 2hbh against that.
 
nadal_slam_king

nadal_slam_king

Banned
Wawrinka, Gasquet, Almagro, Matthieu? Those guys beat Federer much? :lol: What a joke of a list. Especially Gasquet. That guy is the definition of mental midget.
 
Backspin1183

Backspin1183

Talk Tennis Guru
Nadalgaenger said:
7-1 vs. Grigor
23-11 vs. Roger

I think he will punish the 1HBH again in the next few days. Pound it into submission.
Click to expand...

If this was 2012 Nadal, I would be confident of that. In 2017 I don't have the same confidence in Nadal. That said, if he is playing well, I expect him to beat Dimitrov. I'll share my thoughts on Roger-Rafa if Nadal goes past Dimitrov.
 
movdqa

movdqa

Talk Tennis Guru
Where's the poll? I'm in the office at 12:47 AM working through the night and am planning on running this on one of my monitors at 3 AM.
 
Nadalgaenger

Nadalgaenger

G.O.A.T.
So Thiem has basically taken a grand total of four sets in his eight matches against Nadal on the dirt!

Gimelstob was just talking about this match-up problem on TC.
 
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HetTheGreaterer

HetTheGreaterer

Banned
FlashFlare11 said:
I am a bit surprised that players like Wawrinka have never beaten Nadal,
Click to expand...

Are you sure sir???!!

Ka6RtA
 
roysid

roysid

Hall of Fame
heninfan99 said:
Stanimal beat him on clay in Rome one year. it was rather shocking at the time.
Click to expand...
Not shocking. It was 2015. Nadal was losing to virtually everyone on clay. Ferrer,. Almagro etc. And of course Djokovic

Stanimal was red hot that year. Who won Roland Garros in 2015?
 
Bender

Bender

G.O.A.T.
With the change in the way he hits his forehand and his declined movement, the one handers are starting to score a few wins against Rafa once in a while.
 
Nadalgaenger

Nadalgaenger

G.O.A.T.
Basically the only way to neutralize Nadal on clay is to play like peak Djokovic. Rock solid 2HBH and GOAT movement/defense.
 
Nadalgaenger

Nadalgaenger

G.O.A.T.
heninfan99 said:
yeah we all know nadal is great but Stan did crush him that one time in Rome so therefore a really good one hander can do it.
Click to expand...

2015 Nadal is about like 2017 Djokovic or 2013 Fed. It’s the absolute worst version.

Before the emergence of Stanimal in 2014 AO final, Nadal was 12-0 against Stan. He had won 26/26 sets against him as well!
 
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