Wrong.
It is called customization. Why would they reveal what exactly they do for the handle or where they apply lead and silicone? Or what changes Fed wants for clay vs hard vs grass, if any?
Does Federer Actually Play With the RF97?
- Thread starter Crie
- Start date
Wrong.
It is called customization. Why would they reveal what exactly they do for the handle or where they apply lead and silicone? Or what changes Fed wants for clay vs hard vs grass, if any?
jsm1373
Rookie
Think I remember reading Mr. Yu once post that P1 keeps specs secret to discourage shady people from trying to create fake "match used" racquets...
Honestly, anyone who thinks that Roger plays the way he does because of 357 VS 364 grams, or a few points +/- headlight is delusional and should spend their new RF97 money on lessons! Same for those that think deleting stickers from a paintjob equals a substantially different stick
. Many thanks to PeterFig and Ron Yu, for giving us *real* insight into what the tennis gods use. Both of your posts are a big reason I keep reading this board! To those who doubt what they say - where is their motivation to come on here and lie?!?! I don't believe that fabricating fake PR is in either one of their job descriptions... Rather to customize/string and design racquets very very well!
The main reason we don't give out our clients racquet specs is because we don't feel it's our right to disclose the specs. The specs belong to the client, and it's up to them whether they want the specs of their sticks released.
We don't make racquets for the general public that match our pro players specs because we don't want them being sold as actual frames of those pro players.
We don't make racquets for the general public that match our pro players specs because we don't want them being sold as actual frames of those pro players.
movdqa
Talk Tennis Guru
You could always do an NDA and a no-resale clause. NDAs are pretty common in my industry (software).
I don't know that playing with someone else's specs would make someone play better or not but I think that lots of folks would pay for the bragging rights.
PeterFig
Professional
Well said Ron. Much better than me clumsily trying to chime in on your behalf
There is absolutely no incentive for P1 to go through extra steps like NDA's and no-resale clauses though. I totally understand your point, but if I was Ron I would like to keep things as easy as possible - that being just not disclosing the specs.
MAX PLY
Hall of Fame
I second that. I cannot imagine what the upside is to P1--NDAs and no-resale clauses are costly to police and enforce (and enforcement (almost always after the breach) can be difficult and the real damage would be the sale or disclosure which by that time would be almost impossible to enjoin), would distract from their core business and would give their current customers (i.e., top flight pros) discomfort.
Ron, keep up the good work and keep contributing, many of us very much respect your views (yours too, Peter) and look forward to your future input!
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jsm1373
Rookie
Thank you for clarifying! That makes total sense and echoes my own experience (even at the lowly 4.5 level...).
As anyone who has spent time/money/effort testing countless weights, balances, strings, tensions, grips, etc. to find what works for them realizes - these specs don't fall from the sky or get emailed by a Wilson engineer. A player has to put in real effort to tune and tweak what works best for them. I string/customize for many friends/acquaintance players - some ask about my specs/setup and to duplicate it for them. Even at my tennis gnat level, I only answer in vague generalities - unwilling to give away the "edge" (however tiny lol) that I worked to find.
Usually its easiest to deflect spec requests by (honestly) explaining that there is no perfect "Platonic form" of racquet/string/setup/spec... Rather the best compromise one can find for their own game! To think that Roger's setup is also perfect for you seems unrealistic. I understand there is a cool factor to having the same gear as the pros, but often ppl take it too far. Do you really think that wearing Usain Bolt's shoes will make you run faster?!
NDA?! Where's the motivation for P1 to do that... Makes far more sense to respect specs as players' owned IP and let them make the decision.
dr325i
G.O.A.T.
I don't understand this...
chikoo
Hall of Fame
same specs - could sell it as genuine RF racquet when in reality he has not even played with it.
moon shot
Hall of Fame
Well, mine would have decals in the throat, so you could tell it wasn't Rogers.
dr325i
G.O.A.T.
1) They do not customize only RF rackets that hapen to be from the same mold as retail. Those that care about the Pro's specs probably know the whole PJ story and could not be fooled by the "Djokovic Authentic 100 sq in Speed Pro" just because someone gave out the specs
2) Is it the flex (layup) that is the mystery here?
Icsa
Semi-Pro
I didn't say P1 should publish "how" they do it - that is their craft.
I'm saying there shouldn't be any harm in publishing the specs (weight, SW etc). I'm sure Roger will have no problem with releasing them. Do you think he considers them a competitive advantage by keeping them secret?! Maybe someone can ask Roger directly.
And look, it is just curiosity - about what specs the greatest is using. I have no intention on replicating them. What works for him, works for him. But it will be interesting to know.
Exactly, for example we know that the estusa provantech pb limited ed 16x19 had specs like a sw 366 ; 3 Pts HL which is beyond the capabilities of many tennis players (myself included) or the Becker 11 sp edition (377 sw, 4 pts HL) and we know this since both were sold on TW but as long as one uses these numbers (Or similar releases) as a baseline to understand one's limitations/ abilities and see what works best for them (for me personally sw 330-335, about 6-8 pts HL and a flex 60-64) and also assuming the pro has no objection in divulging their specs.Thank you for clarifying! That makes total sense and echoes my own experience (even at the lowly 4.5 level...).
As anyone who has spent time/money/effort testing countless weights, balances, strings, tensions, grips, etc. to find what works for them realizes - these specs don't fall from the sky or get emailed by a Wilson engineer. A player has to put in real effort to tune and tweak what works best for them. I string/customize for many friends/acquaintance players - some ask about my specs/setup and to duplicate it for them. Even at my tennis gnat level, I only answer in vague generalities - unwilling to give away the "edge" (however tiny lol) that I worked to find.
Usually its easiest to deflect spec requests by (honestly) explaining that there is no perfect "Platonic form" of racquet/string/setup/spec... Rather the best compromise one can find for their own game! To think that Roger's setup is also perfect for you seems unrealistic. I understand there is a cool factor to having the same gear as the pros, but often ppl take it too far. Do you really think that wearing Usain Bolt's shoes will make you run faster?!
NDA?! Where's the motivation for P1 to do that... Makes far more sense to respect specs as players' owned IP and let them make the decision.
I didn't say P1 should publish "how" they do it - that is their craft.
I'm saying there shouldn't be any harm in publishing the specs (weight, SW etc). I'm sure Roger will have no problem with releasing them. Do you think he considers them a competitive advantage by keeping them secret?! Maybe someone can ask Roger directly.
And look, it is just curiosity - about what specs the greatest is using. I have no intention on replicating them. What works for him, works for him. But it will be interesting to know.
What does he gain by revealing the specs? In fact, a layman would find that the specs don't match the published specs of the stock frame and avoid buying a RF 97. If someone convinces him that the changes are due to customization, he will say then it isn't Fed's frame at all. I can only see a downside for Fed and Wilson. Not revealing the specs does not matter to the hard-core fans who post on threads like this, and keeps the casual players thinking that when they buy the frame, they are really getting the specs. Why rock the boat?
jsm1373
Rookie
Very well put!! I don't think that deleting decals, adding lead tape, power pads, different leather, + overgrip constitutes a substantially different "boat"... Is a customized racquet still the same racquet? In Federer's case, IMHO the answer is yes.
Povl Carstensen
Legend
Different pallets also. But yes, agree.
Tennislover26
New User
I am sorry to say that the racquets solds as RF97 are simply not Federer's racquets. The balance
is completely different and the handle is different. Just because it starts the same, does not mean
it is the same in any way.
A different balance I can understand as players can tweak their racquets whenever they need to, but
when a racquet has a different handle, it just is not the same racquet, in fact it is a different one.
What I do not understand is why Wilson does not just copy the handle? Is it because P1 does not
allow this?
Secondly a recommendation to Wilson. Do not sell a a 12pt head light racquets as Federers racquet.
12 pts head light is a joke.
is completely different and the handle is different. Just because it starts the same, does not mean
it is the same in any way.
A different balance I can understand as players can tweak their racquets whenever they need to, but
when a racquet has a different handle, it just is not the same racquet, in fact it is a different one.
What I do not understand is why Wilson does not just copy the handle? Is it because P1 does not
allow this?
Secondly a recommendation to Wilson. Do not sell a a 12pt head light racquets as Federers racquet.
12 pts head light is a joke.
movdqa
Talk Tennis Guru
Federer uses a custom molded handle. It's common with ATP Pros.
Federer's known specs from his 90 days were known and it's likely that some weight is removed from the handle and lead tape added from 10 to 2 to get near his old specs. If it were Federer's actual racquet (not customized), it probably wouldn't sell well as it would have a swingweight that's above everything else on the market.
Different people want different handles. In the table tennis world, we have straight, flared, rounded straight and conical. It may be that there are a lot of options on molded handles from the customization shops.
Tennislover26
New User
Yes, basically you are giving explanations as to why the racquet is different from Federer's. It's a different racquet as I said. People
are paying for the racquet because they think it is the same as Federer's. Sure people on this site know they are different, but the
average person has no knowledge of this.
movdqa
Talk Tennis Guru
I could certainly take the RF97 and have it customized to my specs and lots of people do that. It would still be an RF97 from my perspective. I have customized Pro Stock IG Prestige MPs. If someone asked me what I'm using, I'd just tell them the IG Prestige MP. If I knew that they knew about Pro Stocks, then I might say TGT293.2 but it's just the Pro Stock version of the namesake.
I used to be someone annoyed at the notion of pro stocks and customization but then people that would buy what pros actually use would be very unhappy with what they actually received. It would be like back in the days of 12-15 ounce wooden racquets - you actually had to be in shape and have decent technique to play.
chikoo
Hall of Fame
custom molded...plastic handle?
chikoo
Hall of Fame
If there is any other racquet that is closer to his specs than the rf97a, do tell
A
Attila_the_gorilla
Guest
I don't care about the handle at all, I have my own preferences there. But totally agree with this one.
Interestingly the Bryan Bros had no issue putting on the market rackets with their actual matchplay specs. And of course in the process they released their specs. No harm done.
Tennis_Hands
Banned
Federer's picture is on some junior racquets!
Why is noone telling that he doesn't use them?!?

Why is noone telling that he doesn't use them?!?

dgoran
Hall of Fame
Funny how we all think of the same thing differently. For me racquet is Custom ONLY if there is a custom layup and or flex and feel is different from the retail.
I can easily change grip palet add lead silicone etc but I can't bake another racquet.
I would be happy if all manufacturers gave us at least that.
I can easily change grip palet add lead silicone etc but I can't bake another racquet.
I would be happy if all manufacturers gave us at least that.
movdqa
Talk Tennis Guru
Federer's picture is on some junior racquets!
Why is noone telling that he doesn't use them?!?

The Costco IG Heat insert has Djokovic and Sharapova on it. I've seen lot of racquets with Nadal's picture in it in the past.
Tennislover26
New User
Federer's picture is on some junior racquets!
Why is noone telling that he doesn't use them?!?

When Fed's picture is on junior racquets, it is completely logical to think that he is not playing
with that racquet.
When Fed or Wilson employees say that Fed is using the same racquet
as the Rf97a, then things get fishy. Average buyer will think that Fed is actually using the same
racquet. The racquet looks the same and it is said to be the same. That's the difference.
Different handle and completely different balance=not the same racquet. Wilson(and Fed!!)
is fooling people.
Ft.S
Semi-Pro
Not that I care if Fed is using "The RF97" or not, but doesn't the handle shape and feel change depending on the overgrip one may use? Or the balance? Doesn't the balance even change depending on strings used? Of course they do.
So, if a player picks up any racquet from the store and uses any strings and puts two layers of overgrips, can he no longer claim s/he using the racquet he bought from store? If I change the pallets of a racquet after I buy it out of a store, can I no longer claim warranty if the frame breaks due to a manufacturing issue?
This line of reasoning does not make any sense to me. The frame is the frame, which is the frame, which is the racquet IMHO.
Tennis_Hands
Banned
After this whole thread you still think that Wilson is fooling people in this particular case?
The whole thing is so ridiculous as there are so many holes in the conspiracy around this particular case.
Unless Wilson claims that they sell Roger's personal racquets to the customers they are absolutely telling the truth with what they are saying they sell.
But Wilson is still to blame as Roger obviously played with junior stick at some point and it wasn't the one with his picture on it!
Tennislover26
New User
Your post makes no sense. If you buy Fed's racquet, you SHOULD get FED's racquet. If you decide afterwards to change the racquet, that is your choice, but you can always remove those things and get the original back. The problem is in this case that the original you buy in the store is not federers racquet because the handle shape is different. So no matter what you do, you can't get FED's original racquet, event though you payed 250 for it.
Obviously anything which is different would cause a difference from the original. My point was
that the balance is COMPLETELY different. Federer does not play with a 12 pt head light racquet. Closer to half of that. I have
played with the RF97a and in stock form it really has little swingweight. Only by adding quite some lead are you able
to get a racquet closer to Fed's specs.
When you are paying 250 USD to get Fed's racquet, they should give you a PRECISE copy in every aspect.
Last post on this matter.
Agree that as long as we get the same racquet as the pros then that should go a long way to justify it.Wilson is doing this which is great as many other racquet companies are not doing it.One can customize the frame to fit in to their personal taste as we all know Roger's specs wouldn't fit to vast majority of the players.
I'm an example being a long time Wilson 6.1.95 user so used to heaver frame and also higher swing weight but didn't really like the RF97 in my first try.But after removing leather grip and adding Synthetic grip RF97 plays awesome with weight almost close to my 6.1.95 frame.
RF97 has that plow through and something different that balls are not coming back winning me more free points compared to my 6.1.95 racquet at around same specs.One handed backhand my gosh one can do slice or drive and lot of different spins , awesome for one handers.No wonder Roger's backhand was big difference recently in many big tournaments remember he hasn't changed much technique wise compared to his old racquet except he is taking it early and in front probably some confidence boost from his new coach but again he was doing it when he was at his peak and never produced these kind of balls on the backhand to trouble Rafa and others.Some of his backhand drives in the finals has no answer from Rafa or others as they were hitting to net or out.
If you drive the backhand for some reason it has a different spin where my opponent hits to net or forces the error cann't tell if is weight or something but again i have played with lot of heavy racquets in that past but didn't produce the same ball.
No, in this day and age of instant everything and gratification a potential buyer should take the time and effort to do a little bit of research. I know that I was a complete novice in 2005 (and have come a long way but am still learning and by no means an expert), but continued reading and experimenting. I can only say this both to casual and non casual tennis buyers. Do your research and make an informed decision.
I have an RF97A and it weighs exactly 359g strung if I only add a Wilson Pro Overgrip.
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Tennis_Hands
Banned
moon shot
Hall of Fame
I'll start with the easy one, what is the swingweight?
Actually, that's a point I was making. The stock swingweight is well under what Federer is reputed to play with, which means there seems to be some customization occurring with Fed's racquet. I haven't read up on all the details of Federer's racquet, just my observation. Thanks, and don't try to be smug on your knowledge all at the same time, y'all...
movdqa
Talk Tennis Guru
There hasn't been anything published on Roger's actual specs but the numbers are known for one of his 90s and the retail sticks are lower than that stick. So the assumption is that there is customization done (there are a lot of rather wild accusations too). Suffice it to say that Roger's specs are probably inline with what other ATP pros use.
moon shot
Hall of Fame
Didn't mean to come off that way, my apologies.
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No, no, not at all. Don't worry about it, probably just feeling a little contrary when I made my comment. Wasn't offended at all, but thanks.
MrFlip
Professional
Been reading these forums for a long time
Still shaking my head that amateurs want to customise their racquets to match the pros.
Fair enough you want to make a racquet exactly like a pros for the fun of it but I can't work out why you'd be seriously wanting to do it.
Why doesn't Federer want to customise his racquet like Dimitrov's?
Still shaking my head that amateurs want to customise their racquets to match the pros.
Fair enough you want to make a racquet exactly like a pros for the fun of it but I can't work out why you'd be seriously wanting to do it.
Why doesn't Federer want to customise his racquet like Dimitrov's?
jsm1373
Rookie
I agree with your comment almost completely - but would change the last question to read "Why doesn't Dimitrov want to customise his racquet like Federer?"... Obviously "Baby Fed" has patterned nearly everything about his game after Roger - but didn't like (recall him breaking quite a few of) the larger black Wilson prototype (97???) he used a while ago. In fact he's had great results switching back to his smaller Ol Faithful box-beam ProStaff (93???).
My point being, if a *significantly* different frame than the RF97 is better suited to Grigor's game (at his current age) - doesn't it make more sense to find the setup that works best for *you*, and not just Roger?
It really seems like Wilson has done a good faith effort (in the case of the RF97) to send to market, as close to possible, what Roger actually uses. Yes it is customized/matched for him - but all of these things could be done by a skilled amateur (albeit not as perfectly, or just as important - consistently) as P1 and Ron Yu. That Federer's and retail both fundamentally start as the same stick from the factory seems to be the truth.
movdqa
Talk Tennis Guru
In the old days, the racquets that rec players used were the same as those that the pros used. Sure, the pros may have used binning to get the heaviest of frames but those were available to retail customers as well. Frames were heavy because of the materials used.
Graphite (arguably aluminum and fiberglass too) meant that you could make a frame that was lighter and more powerful and that allowed for a lot more people to come into the game that probably would have given up had they played in the wood era.
People pay $10K for Federer frames. I've heard that it has gone as high as $20K. I think that they want to hang it in a glass case more than they want to actually play with it.
I have a set of pro stocks customized for a Dutch player. I don't know who the player is - the seller wouldn't tell me as per his agreement with the player. It doesn't really matter though: I like the frames.
DNShade
Hall of Fame
Ever hear of some guy named Borg? Might want to look into his sticks and how they were made...
Two series of 400 frames were produced annually according to Bjorn’s specifications of wood quality, weight (415gr), length and balance. These frames had to be reinforced by adding one additional ply of wood to cope with the extreme string tension of 28/35 kg.
http://www.80s-tennis.com/pages/borg-anecdote-jose.html
movdqa
Talk Tennis Guru
Ever hear of some guy named Borg? Might want to look into his sticks and how they were made...
Two series of 400 frames were produced annually according to Bjorn’s specifications of wood quality, weight (415gr), length and balance. These frames had to be reinforced by adding one additional ply of wood to cope with the extreme string tension of 28/35 kg.
http://www.80s-tennis.com/pages/borg-anecdote-jose.html
Cool. Who did they do that for back in the 40s and 50s? Was Borg an isolated case or did he represent the vast majority similar to the situation which we have today?
Vcore89
Talk Tennis Guru
You just missed the opportunity to overtake his post count while he took a break.
but unless they are your identical twin then you would have to also customise their body to be the same as yours in terms of arm length, leg length, torso width and height and weight distribution, for your "edge" to do anything for them...Thank you for clarifying! That makes total sense and echoes my own experience (even at the lowly 4.5 level...).
As anyone who has spent time/money/effort testing countless weights, balances, strings, tensions, grips, etc. to find what works for them realizes - these specs don't fall from the sky or get emailed by a Wilson engineer. A player has to put in real effort to tune and tweak what works best for them. I string/customize for many friends/acquaintance players - some ask about my specs/setup and to duplicate it for them. Even at my tennis gnat level, I only answer in vague generalities - unwilling to give away the "edge" (however tiny lol) that I worked to find.
Usually its easiest to deflect spec requests by (honestly) explaining that there is no perfect "Platonic form" of racquet/string/setup/spec... Rather the best compromise one can find for their own game! To think that Roger's setup is also perfect for you seems unrealistic. I understand there is a cool factor to having the same gear as the pros, but often ppl take it too far. Do you really think that wearing Usain Bolt's shoes will make you run faster?!
NDA?! Where's the motivation for P1 to do that... Makes far more sense to respect specs as players' owned IP and let them make the decision.
