Don't see how Del Potro ever beats Djokovic.

Raul_SJ · Sep 9, 2018

Djok just has a very high shot tolerance; can rally forever. You will see Del Potro get into long rallies with Djok but eventually DP makes a few more errors. Sometimes Djok is like the 7.0 version of a 3.5 pusher. Just gets everything back and waits for an UFE.

And Djok has better movement although DP moves well for a big guy.

They are relatively evenly matched but Djok just has that extra edge where you know the match is usually his to win.

With DP you need to hope that his serve is really on or that he is ripping FH winners.Limited options. Slower U.S. Open courts also hurt him more than Djok.

Djok has more ways to win. Will often suddenly turn a defensive shot into an offensive shot with his quickness.

Don't know if there is an answer, Serve and Volley more?

r2473 · Sep 9, 2018

If the courts were fast, it would favor the guy with the big weapon. But “tennis” has decided that they want the grinders to have the advantage (an insurmountable advantage).

Del Potro played amazingly well. But he has no chance against Djoko-grinder on slow hard court.

vex · Sep 9, 2018

r2473 said:
If the courts were fast, it would favor the guy with the big weapon. But “tennis” has decided that they want the grinders to have the advantage (an insurmountable advantage).

Del Potro played amazingly well. But he has no chance against Djoko-grinder on slow hard court.

Court speed is massively overrated. Its a very small factor all in all.

Djoker-Grinder just won his 4th Wimbledon. Pretty sure court speed isn't a problem. If anything his return skills give him a huge advantage on fast courts b/c his opponents return blows in comparison.

Djoker wins with accuracy not grinding.

r2473 · Sep 9, 2018

vex said:
Court speed is massively overrated. Its a very small factor all in all.

Djoker-Grinder just won his 4th Wimbledon. Pretty sure court speed isn't a problem. If anything his return skills give him a huge advantage on fast courts b/c his opponents return blows in comparison.

Djoker wins with accuracy not grinding.

K

mad dog1 · Sep 9, 2018

Raul_SJ said:
Sometimes Djok is like the 7.0 version of a 3.5 pusher. Just gets everything back and waits for an UFE...

Djok has more ways to win. Will often suddenly turn a defensive shot into an offensive shot with his quickness.

Pushers don’t turn defensive shots into offensive shots. They just get the ball back into tha middle of the court.

Dragy · Sep 10, 2018

It wasn’t about grinding. It was defending when on defensive, building up pressure from neutral and further on, until unforced or forced error or winner opportunity pops up. They call it smart and skillful baseline tennis.
DelPo should play extremely confident and on edge of his ability to pressure Novak, which obviously is hard to keep through a 5-setter at the end of 2 weeks. If he had that best day in his life... anyone but Novak won’t make him look like in that much trouble. And yes, he actually played great.

Raul_SJ · Sep 10, 2018

I don't see anyone hanging in with Djok from the baseline other than Rafa. Those two are playing at a higher level than anyone else.

Del Potro comes close and he can win when he's on but it will always be a struggle. He simply does not have the shot tolerance that Djok has.

dominikk1985 · Sep 10, 2018

Problem was movement. Delpo doesn't move bad but his forehand on the run out of the forehand corner is weak and inconsistent.

Delpo runs around a lot and hits inside out forehands very well but when Novak hits into the open forehand corner he is quite weak.

The forehand on the run is a key skill for guys who often hit inside out forehands out of the backhand corner and delpo is not great at it. Against guys with a good down the line backhand (not easy to do) this is a problem.

IowaGuy · Sep 10, 2018

Raul_SJ said:
Djok just has a very high shot tolerance; can rally forever. You will see Del Potro get into long rallies with Djok but eventually DP makes a few more errors. Sometimes Djok is like the 7.0 version of a 3.5 pusher. Just gets everything back and waits for an UFE.

And Djok has better movement although DP moves well for a big guy.

They are relatively evenly matched but Djok just has that extra edge where you know the match is usually his to win.

With DP you need to hope that his serve is really on or that he is ripping FH winners.Limited options. Slower U.S. Open courts also hurt him more than Djok.

Djok has more ways to win. Will often suddenly turn a defensive shot into an offensive shot with his quickness.

Don't know if there is an answer, Serve and Volley more?

The way DelPo played against Nadal at Wimby 2018, he would have given Djok a good match had DelPo beat Nadal...

But beyond Wimby, DelPo definitely can't grind against Djok on the slow courts of AO, USO, or FO.

WestboroChe · Sep 10, 2018

dominikk1985 said:
Problem was movement. Delpo doesn't move bad but his forehand on the run out of the forehand corner is weak and inconsistent.

Delpo runs around a lot and hits inside out forehands very well but when Novak hits into the open forehand corner he is quite weak.

The forehand on the run is a key skill for guys who often hit inside out forehands out of the backhand corner and delpo is not great at it. Against guys with a good down the line backhand (not easy to do) this is a problem.

And against one of the best backhands ever that’s a recipe for a loss.

tlm · Sep 10, 2018

WestboroChe said:
And against one of the best backhands ever that’s a recipe for a loss.

Yep whenever they got into backhand rally’s Joker would come out on top most of the time. It’s tough when a player has that kind of movement with a rock solid backhand.

West Coast Ace · Sep 10, 2018

OP, thanks for starting this thread - a great way to talk strategy and the pros.

One thing drive me crazy yesterday: Delpo hitting the BH slice crosscourt approaches and giving Djokovic a truck-size hole to hit the pass DTL - which he did every time. I still think DTL, deep is the % play when approaching - strings/racquets will still lead to one getting passed occasionally.

Djokovic wasn’t hitting as deep as he did when he destroyed Fed in the 2016 AO SF - but except for a few lapses, was incredibly consistent. Combine that with good spot serving and he may have another long run at #1.

r2473 · Sep 10, 2018

West Coast Ace said:
Combine that with good spot serving and he may have another long run at #1.

Combine that with Zverev as his biggest threat from the younger generation(s) and that long run at #1 seems pretty automatic.

If his "will" holds out, Djokovic will win everything of importance for the next several years. If he hadn't had that 2 year "lapse", Federer would still be at 17 slams. Djokovic would have AT LEAST 4 more than he does now.

Dragy · Sep 10, 2018

West Coast Ace said:
One thing drive me crazy yesterday: Delpo hitting the BH slice crosscourt approaches and giving Djokovic a truck-size hole to hit the pass DTL - which he did every time. I still think DTL, deep is the % play when approaching - strings/racquets will still lead to one getting passed occasionally.

Yeah, noticed also. Several times Nole pulled him in, DelPo sliced CC and got finished with an easy DTL pass. Meanwhile, we should take into consideration that one should get farther forward and to the side of the ball to even slice DTL efficiently. CC can be done lunging. Well, to no good result though...

user92626 · Sep 10, 2018

Djokovic is a complete package that tennis desires. Delpo is very good but like I have said many times in other threads, he is unbalance. His serve and offensive shots are exceptionally good, allowing him to compensate and hang in there but his movement and defensive skills is average.

Come to think of it, if guys like Del Potrol rules, then tennis athletes will evolve into freaks, like boxing or sumo wrestling where the biggest @ass guys win.

You should want a sport that promotes balance development.

(with that said, I can't explain Serena's ultra success, but then lots of us can't understand women anyway. They're weird.

)

Raul_SJ · Sep 10, 2018

dominikk1985 said:
Problem was movement. Delpo doesn't move bad but his forehand on the run out of the forehand corner is weak and inconsistent.

Delpo runs around a lot and hits inside out forehands very well but when Novak hits into the open forehand corner he is quite weak.

The forehand on the run is a key skill for guys who often hit inside out forehands out of the backhand corner and delpo is not great at it. Against guys with a good down the line backhand (not easy to do) this is a problem.

Del Potro has the best running forehand in the world. Jeff predicted a Del Potro win .

"Djokovic beats Federer by attacking Fed's running forehand but Del Potro's running forehand is the best in the world . Djokovic is not going to be able to attack Del Potro's running forehand."

'"The running forehand was a weakness for Del Potro . I didn't anticipate this . If someone would have said that Del Potro's forehand would have broken down in the forehand corner like feds does I would have I would have said you're crazy it's not going to happen. But I also would have said if that happens he has no chance of winning the match. It was all contingent on that cross-court forehand . The forehand broke down under pressure when he was rushed and Djokovic knew it."

dominikk1985 · Sep 10, 2018

Ok maybe his running forehand is normally better.but in this match is was quite weak and often either an error or a weak ball even if he wasn't rushed all that much.

Raul_SJ · Sep 10, 2018

user92626 said:
Djokovic is a complete package that tennis desires. Delpo is very good but like I have said many times in other threads, he is unbalance. His serve and offensive shots are exceptionally good, allowing him to compensate and hang in there but his movement and defensive skills is average.

Come to think of it, if guys like Del Potrol rules, then tennis athletes will evolve into freaks, like boxing or sumo wrestling where the biggest @ass guys win.

Del Potro has the misfortune of playing in the era of all time great's Djok and Nadal.
He is the best player right now other than those two. Agree his movement will never be top tier. Too big.

mad dog1 · Sep 10, 2018

user92626 said:
...like boxing or sumo wrestling where the biggest @ass guys win...

Mike Tyson was not the biggest guy when he was knocking the stuffing outta his opponents in the 1st round.

Manny pacquiao was not the biggest guy when he beat de la Hoya, margarito, cotto, etc...

user92626 · Sep 10, 2018

mad dog1 said:
Mike Tyson was not the biggest guy when he was knocking the stuffing outta his opponents in the 1st round.

Manny pacquiao was not the biggest guy when he beat de la Hoya, margarito, cotto, etc...

Mike Tyson could knock the crap out of Pac Man if it was allowed. Sizes matter in boxing. That's they need separate divisions.

Doc Hollidae · Sep 10, 2018

West Coast Ace said:
OP, thanks for starting this thread - a great way to talk strategy and the pros.

One thing drive me crazy yesterday: Delpo hitting the BH slice crosscourt approaches and giving Djokovic a truck-size hole to hit the pass DTL - which he did every time. I still think DTL, deep is the % play when approaching - strings/racquets will still lead to one getting passed occasionally.

Djokovic wasn’t hitting as deep as he did when he destroyed Fed in the 2016 AO SF - but except for a few lapses, was incredibly consistent. Combine that with good spot serving and he may have another long run at #1.

I was always taught to approach DTL. The only exception was if the ball was above the net and you can put the ball away cross court.

scotus · Sep 10, 2018

Raul_SJ said:
Djok just has a very high shot tolerance; can rally forever. You will see Del Potro get into long rallies with Djok but eventually DP makes a few more errors. Sometimes Djok is like the 7.0 version of a 3.5 pusher. Just gets everything back and waits for an UFE.

And Djok has better movement although DP moves well for a big guy.

They are relatively evenly matched but Djok just has that extra edge where you know the match is usually his to win.

With DP you need to hope that his serve is really on or that he is ripping FH winners.Limited options. Slower U.S. Open courts also hurt him more than Djok.

Djok has more ways to win. Will often suddenly turn a defensive shot into an offensive shot with his quickness.

Don't know if there is an answer, Serve and Volley more?

I think Djokovic hit his forehand harder than he did when he won the Novak Slam.

One thing I believe he got out of training with Agassi was letting loose on his forehand. He doesn't just play ping pong anymore. His forehand is a weapon again like in 2011.

Wise one · Sep 10, 2018

Raul_SJ said:
Djok just has a very high shot tolerance; can rally forever. You will see Del Potro get into long rallies with Djok but eventually DP makes a few more errors. Sometimes Djok is like the 7.0 version of a 3.5 pusher. Just gets everything back and waits for an UFE.

And Djok has better movement although DP moves well for a big guy.

They are relatively evenly matched but Djok just has that extra edge where you know the match is usually his to win.

With DP you need to hope that his serve is really on or that he is ripping FH winners.Limited options. Slower U.S. Open courts also hurt him more than Djok.

Djok has more ways to win. Will often suddenly turn a defensive shot into an offensive shot with his quickness.

Don't know if there is an answer, Serve and Volley more?

Both are morons. Unwatchable garbage.

TennisCJC · Sep 10, 2018

Raul_SJ said:
Djok just has a very high shot tolerance; can rally forever. You will see Del Potro get into long rallies with Djok but eventually DP makes a few more errors. Sometimes Djok is like the 7.0 version of a 3.5 pusher. Just gets everything back and waits for an UFE.

And Djok has better movement although DP moves well for a big guy.

They are relatively evenly matched but Djok just has that extra edge where you know the match is usually his to win.

With DP you need to hope that his serve is really on or that he is ripping FH winners.Limited options. Slower U.S. Open courts also hurt him more than Djok.

Djok has more ways to win. Will often suddenly turn a defensive shot into an offensive shot with his quickness.

Don't know if there is an answer, Serve and Volley more?

Well, you were correct. I am not a Djoko fan but even I have to admit he played extremely well. the only thing that bothered me about this US Open is the slower courts. It isn't a coincidence that Djoko won, Nadal did well until injury got him and Thiem did well as all 3 are helped by the slower courts. Personally, I thin Aussie Open has hit the correct speed. I think tennis has gone too far toward the baseline defenders with court speed. I like to see more attacking tennis and move volleying.

S&V-not_dead_yet · Sep 10, 2018

Doc Hollidae said:
I was always taught to approach DTL. The only exception was if the ball was above the net and you can put the ball away cross court.

I think that's smart at the rec level. I notice pros mostly break this rule and go CC because it's righty vs righty and the approacher wants to avoid his opponent's FH.

Raul_SJ · Sep 10, 2018

TennisCJC said:
Well, you were correct. I am not a Djoko fan but even I have to admit he played extremely well. the only thing that bothered me about this US Open is the slower courts. It isn't a coincidence that Djoko won, Nadal did well until injury got him and Thiem did well as all 3 are helped by the slower courts.

I had thought any differences on the so-called slower courts would be very minor and attributable to normal variation when re-surfacing a court. Assuming the U.S. Open would be striving to exactly replicate the same surface every year, to the extent that is possible.

Thiem was hitting some amazing 1HBH winners against Nadal. Would think a slower surface would hurt those backhands. Although his backhands tended to be sharply angled rather than hit through the court.

What is the surface of US Open tennis court?

Since 1978, the US Open has been played on a hard court surface called Pro DecoTurf. It is a multi-layer cushioned surface and classified by the International Tennis Federation as medium-fast. Each August before the start of the tournament, the courts are resurfaced.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/US_Open_(tennis)

Dragy · Sep 10, 2018

Raul_SJ said:
Thiem was hitting some amazing 1HBH winners against Nadal. Would think a slower surface would hurt those backhands.

IMHO, on pro level (well, same on rec to extent) key difference is slower surface allows to get to more balls balanced and set up for full power strokes in response. It’s not that on faster courts Thiem won’t get to balls, but maybe have fewer chances to hit his drives. That’s why he benefits from slower surface relying on those full load, powerful, high spin shots.

Raul_SJ · Sep 11, 2018

Raul_SJ said:
I had thought any differences on the so-called slower courts would be very minor and attributable to normal variation when re-surfacing a court. Assuming the U.S. Open would be striving to exactly replicate the same surface every year, to the extent that is possible.

I was wrong on the court surfacing.

US Open tournament director David Brewer said Wednesday night that the Grand Slam event's hard courts were purposely slowed down "a touch'' in response to players noting in recent years that the surface seemed to be speeding up.

IowaGuy · Sep 11, 2018

Raul_SJ said:
US Open tournament director David Brewer said Wednesday night that the Grand Slam event's hard courts were purposely slowed down "a touch'' in response to players noting in recent years that the surface seemed to be speeding up.

Slower courts = more grinding and wear & tear on the body...

Simon_the_furry · Sep 11, 2018

Wise one said:
Both are morons. Unwatchable garbage.

I like Delpo. That forehand is nuclear.

West Coast Ace · Sep 12, 2018

S&V-not_dead_yet said:
I think that's smart at the rec level. I notice pros mostly break this rule and go CC because it's righty vs righty and the approacher wants to avoid his opponent's FH.

I think you’re giving them too much credit; other than Fed and a few others getting into net is an afterthought and they probably spend almost no time practicing approaches; I know I have never seen it in all the time I’ve spent at the practice courts at tournaments. Besides, they also go CC when hitting a FH approach - hitting predominantly CC is just ingrained from the time they’re kids.

Raul_SJ · Sep 12, 2018

Wise one said:
Both are morons. Unwatchable garbage.

It is more exciting when players mix it up and come to the net. This is my favorite match.
Great net play and some fine baseline rallies too.

Don't see how Del Potro ever beats Djokovic.

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